Jazz Predictions, Jazz Questions, Pt. 2

Sorry, Jazz Fans, I should have made my other thread more clear. I meant it to be a thread about how the Jazz team will evolve this year and in the future, not about how many games we will win this year, or where we will finish in the regular season or the playoffs. I didn't mean for it to be a thread guessing at how many games the Jazz would win this year, or how our record would compare against other teams-- I meant it to be about how we thought our players would interact with each other and gel as a team.

I didn't mean to infringe on the already existing threads on "What are your predictions for how all the teams in the west, or the league, will finish (record-wise) this year, or "how many games will the Jazz win this year." I think most of the responses on the other thread I started were in tune with what I meant to talk about.

So, in this thread, I'm not looking for a response like: "The Jazz will win 51 games this season," or "OKC will finish first, the Lakers will finish 2nd, etc." I was mostly interested in responses about how our trade acquistions would fit in with our team-- like, "Marvin Williams has never played on an NBA team with clearly defined roles like the Jazz have, so this could resurrect his career." Or, "Randy Foye is the type of player that you can fit in any team's method and he will make the team better." Or, "Moe Williams understands the Jazz' system and could be as important as John Stockton was in the Stockton to Malone era-- but, who will be his Malone?"

We had a decent conversation started on the other thread before it was closed. As to how the Jazz will evolve as a team, what are your predictions? And, what are your questions? I think one of the overwhelming questions the Jazz will always face is: how can we compete against big market teams(?), but, I'm afraid of the realistic answer (we can't). One of the best questions I can think of right now is, "Who should be our starters, and what should be our rotation?" What questions are most important to the rest of us (everyone that is not me)?

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Jazz Fans, I should have made my other thread more clear. I meant it to be a thread about how the Jazz team will evolve this year and in the future, not about how many games we will win this year, or where we will finish in the regular season or the playoffs. I didn't mean for it to be a thread guessing at how many games the Jazz would win this year, or how our record would compare against other teams-- I meant it to be about how we thought our players would interact with each other and gel as a team.

I didn't mean to infringe on the already existing threads on "What are your predictions for how all the teams in the west, or the league, will finish (record-wise) this year, or "how many games will the Jazz win this year." I think most of the responses on the other thread I started were in tune with what I meant to talk about.

So, in this thread, I'm not looking for a response like: "The Jazz will win 51 games this season," or "OKC will finish first, the Lakers will finish 2nd, etc." I was mostly interested in responses about how our trade acquistions would fit in with our team-- like, "Marvin Williams has never played on an NBA team with clearly defined roles like the Jazz have, so this could resurrect his career." Or, "Randy Foye is the type of player that you can fit in any team's method and he will make the team better." Or, "Moe Williams understands the Jazz' system and could be as important as John Stockton was in the Stockton to Malone era-- but, who will be his Malone?"

We had a decent conversation started on the other thread before it was closed. As to how the Jazz will evolve as a team, what are your predictions? And, what are your questions? I think one of the overwhelming questions the Jazz will always face is: how can we compete against big market teams(?), but, I'm afraid of the realistic answer (we can't). One of the best questions I can think of right now is, "Who should be our starters, and what should be our rotation?" What questions are most important to the rest of us (everyone that is not me)?

Seems we keep falling back into the question of who our starters should be, and my ideal scenario is to keep all our players, and Paul is our superstar 6th and Burks our superstar 6 1/2 man. Starting big, agile Fav next to Al is the best fit, for meshing skills. But Paul and Burks both could be our teams James Harden. Legitimate starters, in the all star convo ever year even, but on this team just so happen to mesh better coming off the bench. Starter minutes type guys.
Also, at the 2 and 3 I like GH and Marv. GH is a playmaker, but also a good defender, and can score from everywhere. I think you're right SL, Marv will have a career year. This is 10x more structured than that ATL team, and Marvs skills of slashing and corner 3's are a perfect fit on this squad. He's never had a good PG either, and Mo will find him all over the court. He's going to be looked at as the 5th option, instead of the 3rd, and this team vs ATL does not NEED his scoring, it's just welcomed. He's also a really good wing defender, which of course is great.

As for the competing with the big market teams, well, I actually think we will and can. I wont take that bet with MTJazz about the Jazz competing for the 4th spot, bc I think they will. We have a team as structured currently, with 5 very good starting players. And then depending on who that 5 is, we have Paul, Burks, Foye who are another 3 starting level players. Then we even have our UnderKanter who at a minimum brings elite level rebounding, good defense and almost assuredly will have big strides this season. Lastly, we have a team of guys that all want to be here, and chemistry goes along way.
I love this squad.

I'm really excited to see Favors and GH. This is their third season, and is generally when player make the biggest jump and show you what you can expect for the rest of their career. Favors will still develop after this season a lot though, because bigs always take more time to mature their game.

This year though we will see just what we can expect from GH from here on out. He has been great anyway, but I see him taking a big leap this season.

Any thoughts on who Corbin should add to his bench??? Some old head, fundamental guy like Musselman? A Dleague guy like Livingston?? We have a brainy asst I believe like Hornecek already, should it be a old player? Even a big man coach? What about Ewing or Malone?? Hmmm, I dont know. We have some great bigs, I could see the smarts in getting a big man coach like those two in there.....though I have always felt like Ewing and Karl both are well, kinda, uh, on the not smart side.

Mutangclan wrote:

Any thoughts on who Corbin should add to his bench??? Some old head, fundamental guy like Musselman? A Dleague guy like Livingston?? We have a brainy asst I believe like Hornecek already, should it be a old player? Even a big man coach? What about Ewing or Malone?? Hmmm, I dont know. We have some great bigs, I could see the smarts in getting a big man coach like those two in there.....though I have always felt like Ewing and Karl both are well, kinda, uh, on the not smart side.

if Malone came in and got these young players working as hard as he did every year to get better then every single one of them would be superstars. And that would be the smartest thing someone could do. And basic smarts don't apply all that much to basketball. Karl has a GREAT basketball mind and even better work ethic. If they could just get these guys to seriously work hard on their game then we would be a serious contender and a team other teams really don't want to play

Zoonie wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Any thoughts on who Corbin should add to his bench??? Some old head, fundamental guy like Musselman? A Dleague guy like Livingston?? We have a brainy asst I believe like Hornecek already, should it be a old player? Even a big man coach? What about Ewing or Malone?? Hmmm, I dont know. We have some great bigs, I could see the smarts in getting a big man coach like those two in there.....though I have always felt like Ewing and Karl both are well, kinda, uh, on the not smart side.

if Malone came in and got these young players working as hard as he did every year to get better then every single one of them would be superstars. And that would be the smartest thing someone could do. And basic smarts don't apply all that much to basketball. Karl has a GREAT basketball mind and even better work ethic. If they could just get these guys to seriously work hard on their game then we would be a serious contender and a team other teams really don't want to play

While I agree with your main points, that commitment and work ethic is something that Karl could surely bring and that woudl be a good thing, I'm not sure how applicable your conclusion is to this team.

By all accounts most of this team works very very hard on thir game, so hard they garner significant praise for their efforts, and that is especially true for the young players. I know for a fact that Hayward and Kanter have been really getting after it this summer, and I think the same is true for Burks and Favors. Millsap is hands down one of the hardest workers in the NBA when it comes to improving his game, and Jefferson has drawn quite a bit of praise since he joined the Jazz for getting in better shape and working tirelessly with the younger players.

On most teams I think you can find a few (or several) guys that tend to take the summers off, or at least it seems like they do, but I'm hard pressed to find a guy on the Jazz that has that kind of character. I think this whole team is hungry and feels like they have something to prove.

This thread got me thinking about what all of these guys have been up to this summer...I think I'll start another thread for what I've found....

I have a feeling that Burks is going to take a big step this season and is going to flat out win the starting 2 guard job going into the season, I can't see anyone keeping him off of the court if he plays up to his ability's that is the kind of talent I think he has got. I think going into camp the Jazz are going to be open to anything and a player is going to have to out right win a starting job and I think that Burks will show that he is the starting SG on this team I really do.

I also see Favors becoming a big part of this team and turning into the kind of player everyone thinks he will be, the Kid has a lot of talent and with the experience of being in the league for 3 years I think he is ready to step up to the plate and become that player. He is already saying the things he should be saying like being willing to come off of the bench all he want's is more playing time that's all that matters to him. It is going to be hard to keep him off of the court this coming season I think he is going to have his best season ever.

I really like the Mo Williams and Randy Foye pick-up's in the back court for the Jazz I think these two guys fit into the new NBA and how the game is played now a days very well, guard play is more efficient at the offensive end because the defensive guy can't put a hand on him when he is facing the basket giving him an advantage. These two have shown they have the ability to drive to the basket and kick out to an open guy if the shot's not there and also stick's outside shot at a high rate. I think this could be one of the best offensive team's the Jazz has ever had from 1 to 15 if they fill all of their roster spots.

I also have to say that Kanter is looking a lot better than he was in summer league play it looked like he was a little out of shape bit now after seeing what he has done with his body over the summer I have to say the guy is showing that he is working hard to improve the things that he can this summer. If he is as strong as he is looking it is going to be hard to move him around in the paint making him a much better defensive player and a rebounder.


Man I would love to see the Jazz get John Stockton to come in as a coach I think his boys are all in college or this first season as a free agent so he might be willing to try it, sure would be worth giving it a shot. I would like to see the Jazz get a big man's coach but not so sure about Malone just yet I think I would like to wait on him to see how he does working with Favors for awhile before making a judgment with him but I do like what Ewing bring's to the table he has done a good job with the big's he has worked with so far. One other guy that I think could really help the bigs for the Jazz is Kareem the guy has a lot of things he could teach these kids, he just needs a shot to do it as an assistant coach nobody has been willing to do that so far but I think he is up to it.

Zoonie wrote:

if Malone came in and got these young players working as hard as he did every year to get better then every single one of them would be superstars. And that would be the smartest thing someone could do. And basic smarts don't apply all that much to basketball. Karl has a GREAT basketball mind and even better work ethic. If they could just get these guys to seriously work hard on their game then we would be a serious contender and a team other teams really don't want to play

Nobody can disregard Karls work ethic, he was the best. But I'll disagree with you on Karls basketball mind. While he would always give 100%, it doesn't mean he could see plays before they happened like Stockton, or could coach others. I mean think about it; you never saw Karl pulling a younger player aside and pointing out where he should go/be, what he should've done instead. He could motivate, and get into guys asses, but he wasn't ever really a coach on the floor, ala Stock. Same thing with Ewing.

But Don, man, definitely going with you lately---- Kareem would be an asst I could definitely get on board with! Thats one of the most fundamental bigs ever, and also was always a thinking big man. I do wonder why he hasn't been offered another job, seems for some reason ppl are scared off but.......I think I'd be a great pick for Corbin.

I will disagree with you on Burks though. But I think it mainly is just because Marv is going to come in ready to go, and Gordo is going to come in ready to make a statement too. Both those guys will make it too tough for the 2nd year Burks to start.
I do agree with you though that Burks will basically have starter minutes. He's going to be the guy that all Jazz fans love and erupt for when he comes to the scorers table to check in.
He's going to be really good for the Jazz this year.

Mutangclan wrote:

Zoonie wrote:

if Malone came in and got these young players working as hard as he did every year to get better then every single one of them would be superstars. And that would be the smartest thing someone could do. And basic smarts don't apply all that much to basketball. Karl has a GREAT basketball mind and even better work ethic. If they could just get these guys to seriously work hard on their game then we would be a serious contender and a team other teams really don't want to play

Nobody can disregard Karls work ethic, he was the best. But I'll disagree with you on Karls basketball mind. While he would always give 100%, it doesn't mean he could see plays before they happened like Stockton, or could coach others. I mean think about it; you never saw Karl pulling a younger player aside and pointing out where he should go/be, what he should've done instead. He could motivate, and get into guys asses, but he wasn't ever really a coach on the floor, ala Stock. Same thing with Ewing.

But Don, man, definitely going with you lately---- Kareem would be an asst I could definitely get on board with! Thats one of the most fundamental bigs ever, and also was always a thinking big man. I do wonder why he hasn't been offered another job, seems for some reason ppl are scared off but.......I think I'd be a great pick for Corbin.

I will disagree with you on Burks though. But I think it mainly is just because Marv is going to come in ready to go, and Gordo is going to come in ready to make a statement too. Both those guys will make it too tough for the 2nd year Burks to start.
I do agree with you though that Burks will basically have starter minutes. He's going to be the guy that all Jazz fans love and erupt for when he comes to the scorers table to check in.
He's going to be really good for the Jazz this year.

Marv Williams has things to prove to me anyway before I would be giving him a starting job all I can go by is how he has played in the past and for the last few season he has really not done all that well when he has been on the court, he is going to have to play a lot better than he has been for him to win a starting job on this Jazz team IMO. To me judging by the way Burks played in the summer league he is showing that he is one of the top players on this team and unless Marv has his best season ever he is not going to win a starting job over Burks, I am sure that Hayward is going to be the starting SF and Marv Williams will be coming off of the bench behind him we will just have to wait and see how it all turn's out.

I have read in the past that one big reason why Kareem can't get a coaching job in the NBA today is because of his altitude from back in his playing day's, some of his views and things he said at that time just did not sit well with the NBA and they are still holding it against him but I say those days are long gone and it is time to let all of that be water under the bridge. A lot of people in those days had views that did not sit well with the people in charge those days are over now and It is time for the NBA to give the guy a job for the things he can bring to a team with his experience of playing the game at such a high level for most of his playing career.

dongibby wrote:

Marv Williams has things to prove to me anyway before I would be giving him a starting job all I can go by is how he has played in the past and for the last few season he has really not done all that well when he has been on the court, he is going to have to play a lot better than he has been for him to win a starting job on this Jazz team IMO. To me judging by the way Burks played in the summer league he is showing that he is one of the top players on this team and unless Marv has his best season ever he is not going to win a starting job over Burks, I am sure that Hayward is going to be the starting SF and Marv Williams will be coming off of the bench behind him we will just have to wait and see how it all turn's out.

I have read in the past that one big reason why Kareem can't get a coaching job in the NBA today is because of his altitude from back in his playing day's, some of his views and things he said at that time just did not sit well with the NBA and they are still holding it against him but I say those days are long gone and it is time to let all of that be water under the bridge. A lot of people in those days had views that did not sit well with the people in charge those days are over now and It is time for the NBA to give the guy a job for the things he can bring to a team with his experience of playing the game at such a high level for most of his playing career.

I agree with you on the SF spot don, I think Hayward starts there and Williams comes off the bench, but I think Williams is in a similar position to CJ Miles right now. He's obviously better than Miles,by a lot, but what I mean is that in spite of his relative youth (25 years old) because he's been in the NBA for 7 years now he pretty much is what he is. So what is he? A really solid all around wing that shoots the ball well, rebounds, and plays decent D. He's a MASSIVE upgrade over Miles and Howard.

I think he and Hayward at the 2/3 like Mu is suggesting makes a lot of sense, they compliment eachother nicely, but I think the rotations would work better with Foye or Burks starting.

And if it truly only matters who finnishes, then we should talk about that, because I'd bet that while we will see a variety of finishing lineups depending on the situation and how the guys are playing, I'd also bet the two most common are going to be the Big 3 with Hayward at SG and Mo at PG, and that same group only with Williams in for Favors.

TheMagnus wrote:

dongibby wrote:

Marv Williams has things to prove to me anyway before I would be giving him a starting job all I can go by is how he has played in the past and for the last few season he has really not done all that well when he has been on the court, he is going to have to play a lot better than he has been for him to win a starting job on this Jazz team IMO. To me judging by the way Burks played in the summer league he is showing that he is one of the top players on this team and unless Marv has his best season ever he is not going to win a starting job over Burks, I am sure that Hayward is going to be the starting SF and Marv Williams will be coming off of the bench behind him we will just have to wait and see how it all turn's out.

I have read in the past that one big reason why Kareem can't get a coaching job in the NBA today is because of his altitude from back in his playing day's, some of his views and things he said at that time just did not sit well with the NBA and they are still holding it against him but I say those days are long gone and it is time to let all of that be water under the bridge. A lot of people in those days had views that did not sit well with the people in charge those days are over now and It is time for the NBA to give the guy a job for the things he can bring to a team with his experience of playing the game at such a high level for most of his playing career.

And if it truly only matters who finnishes, then we should talk about that, because I'd bet that while we will see a variety of finishing lineups depending on the situation and how the guys are playing, I'd also bet the two most common are going to be the Big 3 with Hayward at SG and Mo at PG, and that same group only with Williams in for Favors.

I'm guessing you are right on that. It is our best line-up for sure and one I am hugely anticipating watching.

I think that Big 3 lineup will get some serious burn this year, and teams aren't going to know what hit them.

But I'm kinda huge on Marv this year. Pretty much all can agree out in that sports world, that Marv was never utilized properly. He never had a PG to set him up, he had to play off a guy that was his exact same size but dominated the ball the whole game, then his other teammates were one on one type players. I think Marv would have, and will do best in a team oriented offense. His skills translate best on that type of team, and I think we're going to see a career year quite possibly from him if there are enough minutes to go around.

So with that said, here's the last reason why I'm big on him this year, and also see him starting. In Atlanta last year, he was needed to be their 3rd best player. He probably had his best year, but still thats tough. As a 3rd tier player, he was ok. But on this Utah team assuming he starts, he's going to be looked at basically as our 5th option, or 5th best player on the floor. So we're going to have an ok 3rd player as our 5th best player. You follow me??? So he can be an awesome 5th option now.

TheMagnus wrote:

I think he and Hayward at the 2/3 like Mu is suggesting makes a lot of sense, they compliment eachother nicely, but I think the rotations would work better with Foye or Burks starting.

Just to elaborate on this point a little more...or a lot more... I think it is interesting that more and more basketball teams are looking beyond the 5 "positions" on the floor to "roles". I've seen several articles that talk about scouts and teams identifying anywhere from 12 to 18 different roles, and when they go out to find players they are looking not for a SG or a PF, but a "Spot up shooter", or a "perimeter defender", or a "stretch big", and putting a premium on guys that can excell in a single roll or fill multiple roles. I think we all kind of talk in those terms anyways, but there is a movement on right now to try and really dial in statistically on what the roles are and who is best suited for what role, similar to the Moneyball concept in Baseball, and then assemble teams based on finding the best players to fit in those roles. I think the Spurs are really pioneers in this area (the Thunder are another), they have been doing it for years, and I'm excited to see what Lindsey bings because he was suposedly one of the main contributors to their strategy.

With that in mind, I think the Jazz will stick with Millsap, and Jefferson as starters in the frontcourt this year. The spots are theirs to lose, and I don't see any of them taking a step back, so even if Favors comes in to camp super impressive I think he will be comming off the bench. From a role standpoint I think that any two player combination of Favors/Millsap/Jefferson at PF/C makes sense because they all fill different but complimentary roles and they all work well together, so all other things being what they are, inertia wins out here and last years starters will hold their spots.

Mo Williams will be starting at PG. If you look at the Jazz last year, they were really at their best when Harris was active and agressive offensively, and it was frustrating to see him just not seem to show up for so many games. Interestingly enough, when the Jazz were at their best Harris was playing the same role that Williams is coming to play, you know the one they say Harris can't play but he really can, that of a balanced Ball-handler that can shoot the 3. The difference is that it is not the role Harris is best at (even though like I said when the Jazz won he did it pretty well), while it is the role Williams was born to play.

The wing positions are, I think, the most interesting. There is so much versatility there that it's hard to really put your finger on what the best option is. One thing I think is sure is that Hayward will be starting. I also think that regardless of whether he starts at SG or SF, the role he is going to play will be that of the Jazz #2 ball handler. Without a ball dominating PG some of the burden for creating offense has to fall to the wings, and last year Hayward showed excellent ability to create with the ball in his hands both for himself and his teamates and I would expect him to expand on that role this year.

So how do the other guys fit with Hayward? I think they all fit very well, but interestingly enough I think the guy that probably compliments him the least is Burks. The reason for that is simply that I think they are both at their best with the ball in their hands, and while Hayward has shown the ability to hit the kick-out 3, Burks is only a so-so 3pt shooter. Foye and Williams, on the other hand, compliment him almost perfectly, as both of them are great spot up shooters and good defenders. The best two man group is without question Hayward and Williams, both from a statistical standpoint and from a complimentary standpoint. Hayward is the ball handler/creator, Williams is the spot-up-shooter/rebounder, and they have size, athleticism, and length to match up with anybody in the NBA.

But should they start Williams? I mean if he starts he will get more minutes, but that likely means less minutes for Burks, it also means that Burks and Foye will be together on the wings with the second unit and I don't think they compliment each other very well. To me it makes some sense to bring Marvin off the bench with Burks and start Foye, unless they intend for Foye to be the primary backup PG (which I think they should, but probably won't), then Marvin should definitely start. One of the biggest reasons I like the idea is that I think it would allow Burks to really do what he does with the second unit, anybody who watched summer league knows that this kid can be a special type of scorer, but he needs the ball in his hands and he needs some shooters to spread the floor, I think Williams is used to that kind of roll, while Foye would expect to be a bigger factor in the offense if he was with the second unit.

Also, digging deeper into the bench, one guy I would REALLY like to see get some minutes is Evans. He really is a heck of a ball player. I mean, you can say what you want about his limitations and his physique, but the bottom line is that when the kid is on the court he plays hard and is rediculously productive. Unfortunately, barring major injuries, I just don't see how he can crack the rotation, and I think that is a shame. Carroll is another guy that is fun to watch and was very good for the Jazz last year, but who probably won't see the court without some injury problems.

whew...that there is a lot of words...

Since I'm already talking to myself, might as well just ramble on....

Let me just restate the fact that I think Foye's primary role should be backup PG. Tinsley and Watson are simply not good, and with Burks coming on it would be nice to see him get some more minutes. Here's what I think would be the Jazz best rotation, using minutes played at each position (not starters), in a regular game where everybody is healthy...

PG: Mo Williams (34), Foye (12)
SG: Burks (20), Hayward (20), Foye [8]
SF: Ma. Williams (28), Hayward (15), Millsap (6)
PF: Millsap (26), Favors (22)
C: Jefferson (34), Favors [8], Kanter (6)

I'd start Mo, Hayward, Marvin, Millsap, and Jefferson with Foye, Burks, Favors and Kanter anchoring the second unit with either Hayward or Marvin filling in the gap, and if someone is needed for spot duty on the wing it would be Carroll or Evans.

Right now the Jazz have 14 guys on contract and 3 roster spots being taken up by dead weight veterans in Tinsley, Bell, and Watson. All three of them are filling the same role "sage and savvy old veteran tough guys", and while I firmly believe that you need one of those guys on your team, none of them should see any meaningfull playing time, and 3 is a little excessive. I think the Jazz need to lose two of the three, and I'd say the keeper is probably Tinsley.

TheMagnus wrote:

Right now the Jazz have 14 guys on contract and 3 roster spots being taken up by dead weight veterans in Tinsley, Bell, and Watson. All three of them are filling the same role "sage and savvy old veteran tough guys", and while I firmly believe that you need one of those guys on your team, none of them should see any meaningfull playing time, and 3 is a little excessive. I think the Jazz need to lose two of the three, and I'd say the keeper is probably Tinsley.

Kind of surprised that KOC hasn't disposed of Bell's contract yet, much less Watson's. Surely he is shopping them for scraps and a second round pick? Or waiting to bundle them with a "surprise" move with Al or Sap? Pretty sure one or two new guys is going to shine in training camp - would rather add on a couple upsdie D-Leaguers than keep the dead wood around. I mean seriously, 3 guys to back up the starting PG???

Interesting article in the tribune. Some things that stuck out:

"We have a rock-solid group of players who aren’t selfish," he said. "But we’ll have to see how that translates" to possible success on the court.

"My hope," Lindsey continued, "is this team comes together in an unselfish way and puts team goals first, no matter what Ty and our coaches decide in the way of roles and opportunities."

I think this is the first of little things that MAY be speaking directly to Paul Millsap. Maybe somewhat to Burks too. Words like "rock-solid", "unselfish".....these are going to be the themes that the coaching staff and higher ups use I'm sure. With a team with 10 legitimate starters, it's a smart move. And certainly for the Dfav/Paul starting spot conundrum. They're going to have to get through to these guys that Team-first, and whats best for the team will have to be the way to success. And it'll work too if they get through. Good move IMO.

"We talked about what we expect from them. They have to compete every time they step on the floor. Nobody will be given anything."

Ty showed some of this attitude last year, and man I hope he follows through on this. It also will translate to success, and nobody feeling like they can fall off. I love that statement, and will love Ty like Jerry if he follows through on this with everyone, like he did with CJ.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Right now the Jazz have 14 guys on contract and 3 roster spots being taken up by dead weight veterans in Tinsley, Bell, and Watson. All three of them are filling the same role "sage and savvy old veteran tough guys", and while I firmly believe that you need one of those guys on your team, none of them should see any meaningfull playing time, and 3 is a little excessive. I think the Jazz need to lose two of the three, and I'd say the keeper is probably Tinsley.

Kind of surprised that KOC hasn't disposed of Bell's contract yet, much less Watson's. Surely he is shopping them for scraps and a second round pick? Or waiting to bundle them with a "surprise" move with Al or Sap? Pretty sure one or two new guys is going to shine in training camp - would rather add on a couple upsdie D-Leaguers than keep the dead wood around. I mean seriously, 3 guys to back up the starting PG???

Keep Tinsley I really like how he played for the Jazz last year they would not find a better guy to fill the 3 PG position IMO, then find a guy that can help the Jazz at the C/PF position in case of injure.

TheMagnus wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I think he and Hayward at the 2/3 like Mu is suggesting makes a lot of sense, they compliment eachother nicely, but I think the rotations would work better with Foye or Burks starting.

Just to elaborate on this point a little more...or a lot more... I think it is interesting that more and more basketball teams are looking beyond the 5 "positions" on the floor to "roles". I've seen several articles that talk about scouts and teams identifying anywhere from 12 to 18 different roles, and when they go out to find players they are looking not for a SG or a PF, but a "Spot up shooter", or a "perimeter defender", or a "stretch big", and putting a premium on guys that can excell in a single roll or fill multiple roles. I think we all kind of talk in those terms anyways, but there is a movement on right now to try and really dial in statistically on what the roles are and who is best suited for what role, similar to the Moneyball concept in Baseball, and then assemble teams based on finding the best players to fit in those roles. I think the Spurs are really pioneers in this area (the Thunder are another), they have been doing it for years, and I'm excited to see what Lindsey bings because he was suposedly one of the main contributors to their strategy.

With that in mind, I think the Jazz will stick with Millsap, and Jefferson as starters in the frontcourt this year. The spots are theirs to lose, and I don't see any of them taking a step back, so even if Favors comes in to camp super impressive I think he will be comming off the bench. From a role standpoint I think that any two player combination of Favors/Millsap/Jefferson at PF/C makes sense because they all fill different but complimentary roles and they all work well together, so all other things being what they are, inertia wins out here and last years starters will hold their spots.

Mo Williams will be starting at PG. If you look at the Jazz last year, they were really at their best when Harris was active and agressive offensively, and it was frustrating to see him just not seem to show up for so many games. Interestingly enough, when the Jazz were at their best Harris was playing the same role that Williams is coming to play, you know the one they say Harris can't play but he really can, that of a balanced Ball-handler that can shoot the 3. The difference is that it is not the role Harris is best at (even though like I said when the Jazz won he did it pretty well), while it is the role Williams was born to play.

The wing positions are, I think, the most interesting. There is so much versatility there that it's hard to really put your finger on what the best option is. One thing I think is sure is that Hayward will be starting. I also think that regardless of whether he starts at SG or SF, the role he is going to play will be that of the Jazz #2 ball handler. Without a ball dominating PG some of the burden for creating offense has to fall to the wings, and last year Hayward showed excellent ability to create with the ball in his hands both for himself and his teamates and I would expect him to expand on that role this year.

So how do the other guys fit with Hayward? I think they all fit very well, but interestingly enough I think the guy that probably compliments him the least is Burks. The reason for that is simply that I think they are both at their best with the ball in their hands, and while Hayward has shown the ability to hit the kick-out 3, Burks is only a so-so 3pt shooter. Foye and Williams, on the other hand, compliment him almost perfectly, as both of them are great spot up shooters and good defenders. The best two man group is without question Hayward and Williams, both from a statistical standpoint and from a complimentary standpoint. Hayward is the ball handler/creator, Williams is the spot-up-shooter/rebounder, and they have size, athleticism, and length to match up with anybody in the NBA.

But should they start Williams? I mean if he starts he will get more minutes, but that likely means less minutes for Burks, it also means that Burks and Foye will be together on the wings with the second unit and I don't think they compliment each other very well. To me it makes some sense to bring Marvin off the bench with Burks and start Foye, unless they intend for Foye to be the primary backup PG (which I think they should, but probably won't), then Marvin should definitely start. One of the biggest reasons I like the idea is that I think it would allow Burks to really do what he does with the second unit, anybody who watched summer league knows that this kid can be a special type of scorer, but he needs the ball in his hands and he needs some shooters to spread the floor, I think Williams is used to that kind of roll, while Foye would expect to be a bigger factor in the offense if he was with the second unit.

Also, digging deeper into the bench, one guy I would REALLY like to see get some minutes is Evans. He really is a heck of a ball player. I mean, you can say what you want about his limitations and his physique, but the bottom line is that when the kid is on the court he plays hard and is rediculously productive. Unfortunately, barring major injuries, I just don't see how he can crack the rotation, and I think that is a shame. Carroll is another guy that is fun to watch and was very good for the Jazz last year, but who probably won't see the court without some injury problems.

whew...that there is a lot of words...

Yes!!! Did I say Yes and give it 3 exclamation marks? Yes! This was exactly the kind of response I meant to encourage. Not only the post I quoted, but everyone's responses seem to be veryvery good.

Dongib talked about Burkes, and I agree with DG. On the thread about ESPN's player rankings, Heyhey looked a little lower than what we were expecting. On that thread, I posted that it is really hard to predict where he fits in the rankings-- that's because Burkes looks so promising, and Foye can also add a lot at the sg position. Carcar is potentially so good he could be very active on many teams' regular rotation, but, none of us are saying he should be a 20 to 25 minute performer for the Jazz.

Someone said they thought Tinsley and Watson were not very good. That's the only thing I can really disagree with. Watson has proven to the Jazz that he is pretty good. Tinsley only had a few opportunities last year to prove he's really good, but, in those opportunities he proved he is really good ( and he's proved with other teams, when healthy, he can be really really good).

I think it was MuTang that backed up my support of Marvin Williams. My support was more of a question mark, because Marv is an early lottery pick that (may have) suffered because he was stuck in Atlanta where he seemed to have no clearly defined role. Marv hasn't played up to his potential yet. With a more definedrole, he may do it for the Jazz.

One thing I brought up a long time ago (I don't remember if it was on this forum or the old TribTalk) was about our starting lineups. One thing I think might work for the Jazz is that the Jazz organization could insist that all Jazz players swallow their egos and let the Jazz coaching staff try something completely revolutionary: the Jazz could try playing a season with no set starting lineup. Back in the Sloan/Stockton/Malone era I strongly approved of the strategy of keeping pretty much the same player rotation for every game and making our opponent adjust to our almost unbeatable combinations. What I'm suggesting now is pretty much the opposite of that approach. I'm suggesting we scout every opponent for each game and structure our starting lineup and rotation game by game. This goes against almost everything I've said in the past about consistency and the value of a team's set structure. This might mean tht some of our best players might wind up with a DNP instead of their usual great stats (imagine Big Al sitting out of a game while completely healthy and getting zeros instead of a 20-10 game) (but, if we win that game, and Big Al comes out more rested in the next game and destroys our opponent, we would look like geniuses). Of course, for this to work, the Jazz would need an amazing staff capable of accurately scouting our opponents-- and, the Jazz players would have to buy into it.

I'll just have to wait to see Marvs game more to see if he'll be a better fit at sf than Millsap. Untill that time comes I believe a set rotation is better in almost every game... When a player (like Marv) is always playing with Burks, for example, he'll know Burks will drive and give him a passing lane if he can't get to the rim. Anyway, back to Millsap at sf. How much quicker is Williams than Sap? Marv can shoot the three better (supposedly) which I'll buy but Sap already knows the system, how Al likes his meat and potatoes, and how Favors is evolving more than Marv can relate too with starting the season. Plus , if Sap is as quick as Marv then I can't see how Marv is a better defender at the sf position. We all know Sap will bring it on both ends every night. The only question ppl think there is a problem is Sap can't camp outside on offense to be effective. I think his midrange game and being able to get the basket makes up for his lack of three point shooting at this point. I believe you should start and have the best players play together for most of the game. Here's the starters and their minutes and backups and their minutes that'll work best imo:

Point.. Mo (34min), Foye (14 min)
sg... Hayward (34min) , Burks (14min)
sf... Sap (24min) , Marv (24 min)
PF... Favors (34min), Sap (10min), Evans (4min)
Center.. Al (34min), Kanter (14min)

Rotations can be confusing on paper but what matters is having the studs that play defense, play most of the game together. The offense will workout. Also, anyone can get hot as a bandits pistol wth this ten man rotation (cept maybe Kanter and Evans at this point) so someones minutes may be shortened every few games.. no biggie. Example- if Foye gets hot after Mo's first breather then maybe Foye plays most of the 2nd quarter after lighting up the 1st quarter if there's a missmatch in his favor.. which may continue t/o the game.

Our other guys just get scrub time when the games out of reach.

However, I can see situational times when a player can start over another but it'll have to have some substance, or reason. Something like how Malone would look forward to playing Coleman when he called him out.
Say CP3's brother knocked up Burks sister at the prom and was saying it was some other guy they were partying with that night.
I say start Burks at pg, have him post CP3 every play- then try to dunk on him every play or shoot 10 footers over him while having him surrounded by outside shooters like Foye, Hayward, Marv, and Keep Big Al in because he's ugly.

Seriously, it's all about the attitude. Why should Sap start over Marv? Attitude. Plus his name is Marvin. Some Euro player will automatically look at the name and have instant confidence - resulting in a few baskets that could decide the game.... that is untill "Marv" starts getting lite up, remembers his ancestry and his real last name isn't Williams, and goes Kunta kentay on the Euro trash.... I'm being silly here but the point is: Attitude matters!

Why do we like Mo over Harris? He can shoot the three, but more importantly he plays with attitude more often (that is untill we decide he doesn't and trade him for the next "tude dude").

We liked Bell untill we found out his tude couldn't stop , well, anyone.. We hate K o b e cause he has tude and can still deliver. We like Kanter cause he rebounds with tude and doesn't cry when he gets blocked (a lot) on offense. We like Hayward cause he endured Derons tude and came out a starter the rest of the yr and beat the L a k e r s. We like Big Al cause being on the ugly side means he has had to have had tude to be where he's at in life (plus that shot in the lane over bigger players is surreal). We like Burks cause he has a lot of tats- which means he's kinda tough (I guess) and he drives to the hole, taking contact, and knows doing things the hard way is the same as shooting a crappy jumper. We like Evans since he's an anomoly , doesn't have tude, but manages to block shots while never touching another player the whole game. Plus he has a winning smile- which cancels out the "tude is best rule" (if you can jump). We like Favors cause he can block shots as well- and we all know a player that can block shots has a bit of a tude, or engine, or hops- and can be a beast... which he has all three.

So to backup my starting lineup- they are the players with the most justifyable attitude. Makes sense to me.

If you guys haven't see this, solid-solid team preview. Very thorough. Speaking about our youth with Burks/Gordon Hayward/Fav/Enes Kanter referred to as all having showed flashes of brilliance......couldn't agree more.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2012-2013-utah-jazz-season-preview/

How did I miss this? Did you guys see this??

How he'll handle the situation if the Jazz end up starting Derrick Favors at power forward this season: I know what I can do. I know my capabilities. Everybody else do, too. Just get out there, don't really think about it. Haven't really thought about it thus far, and it's helping me out. Just continue to get out there and just try to get better, that's my main focus. Get better and get ready for training camp, and whatever happens after that just happens.

Great to hear, but maybe Paul also thinks that he's going to be the 6th man. Be nice if he truly doesn't care, and he, Al, and Fav all get 30mins per....

Mutangclan wrote:

How did I miss this? Did you guys see this??

How he'll handle the situation if the Jazz end up starting Derrick Favors at power forward this season: I know what I can do. I know my capabilities. Everybody else do, too. Just get out there, don't really think about it. Haven't really thought about it thus far, and it's helping me out. Just continue to get out there and just try to get better, that's my main focus. Get better and get ready for training camp, and whatever happens after that just happens.

Great to hear, but maybe Paul also thinks that he's going to be the 6th man. Be nice if he truly doesn't care, and he, Al, and Fav all get 30mins per....

I read that and It's kinda surprising. He made it known he wasn't happy coming off the bench behind Boozer. Even though he never made it a problem, he knew he should be starting over Boozer. Good to hear, even though I think this is unfortunatly the last year we see Sap playing for the Jazz.

Romoholic wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

How did I miss this? Did you guys see this??

How he'll handle the situation if the Jazz end up starting Derrick Favors at power forward this season: I know what I can do. I know my capabilities. Everybody else do, too. Just get out there, don't really think about it. Haven't really thought about it thus far, and it's helping me out. Just continue to get out there and just try to get better, that's my main focus. Get better and get ready for training camp, and whatever happens after that just happens.

Great to hear, but maybe Paul also thinks that he's going to be the 6th man. Be nice if he truly doesn't care, and he, Al, and Fav all get 30mins per....

I read that and It's kinda surprising. He made it known he wasn't happy coming off the bench behind Boozer. Even though he never made it a problem, he knew he should be starting over Boozer. Good to hear, even though I think this is unfortunatly the last year we see Sap playing for the Jazz.

Maybe is was just hard to stomach playing behind a guy that was a half-assed player like Carlos. Paul knew he was as good of a player, but also knew that he played both ends of the court & wasn't a lazy, paycheck chasing, punk.

Favors on the other hand isn't as polished as Sap, but at least he's been a hard worker & has also "earned" his time.

zero24gravity wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

How did I miss this? Did you guys see this??

How he'll handle the situation if the Jazz end up starting Derrick Favors at power forward this season: I know what I can do. I know my capabilities. Everybody else do, too. Just get out there, don't really think about it. Haven't really thought about it thus far, and it's helping me out. Just continue to get out there and just try to get better, that's my main focus. Get better and get ready for training camp, and whatever happens after that just happens.

Great to hear, but maybe Paul also thinks that he's going to be the 6th man. Be nice if he truly doesn't care, and he, Al, and Fav all get 30mins per....

I read that and It's kinda surprising. He made it known he wasn't happy coming off the bench behind Boozer. Even though he never made it a problem, he knew he should be starting over Boozer. Good to hear, even though I think this is unfortunatly the last year we see Sap playing for the Jazz.

Maybe is was just hard to stomach playing behind a guy that was a half-assed player like Carlos. Paul knew he was as good of a player, but also knew that he played both ends of the court & wasn't a lazy, paycheck chasing, punk.

Favors on the other hand isn't as polished as Sap, but at least he's been a hard worker & has also "earned" his time.

Yeah it would be hard to play behind a guy you knew didn't give a shit about anything except his wallet.