Toughness...

Found this interesting article on toughness over at SLC dunk.


http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/9/17/3348324/jazz-2012-roster-introversion-vs-extroversion-the-body-language-of

I didn't really agree with his example of Jefferson not trying to chase down Tony Parker (Jefferson really isn't capable of that regardless of how tough he is), but I have to agree with the overall premise of the article. I remember in game 3 and 4 of the Spurs series thinking about what a stark contrast their was between the amount of effort that passion Millsap and Carroll, were putting on the court and the effort we were getting from everybody else, especially Hayward and Jefferson.

I especially loved this quote...

AllThatAmar wrote:

Favors needs to exhibit a bit more. Hayward needs to stand his ground and demonstrate that he will not be punked anymore. And Big Al needs to put it together. It's like we need to take these three to see the wizard of oz for a brain, courage, and a heart.

Toughness is definitely one of those intangible things, there are no stats for toughness, and I think sometimes thuggishness and screaming are mistaken for toughness. But it's also kind of like Porn, you know it when you see it, and I think we as Jazz fans would certainly like to see a little more of it this year.

I also don't think this can be a "lead from the rear" type of thing. While it's nice to have tough guy vets on the bench, you need a guy that is out front leading on the court to set the tone for the team...

But who is going to do that this year? Do you think this team can take the next step attitude wise, and really start to stand up and play tough, this year?

I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.

Thats a good article. And in those instances specifically with Dirk/Fav, Gordo/Delonte those were two events that stuck with me and bothered me quite a bit. Both of our guys did nothing. And I mean NOTHING. And it matters. Good teams dont get punked like that. Those things carry over too. In both those instances, there needed to be at least a chest to chest, nose to nose "do something like that again and we'll have a problem" sort of convo. It really bothered me when our guys just let it go. Earl Watson recognized it as a problem, so he ran over to Dirk himself and got in his face. Earl is a tough guy, but either way he still recognized that you just dont let that pass.
I have a good friend who is a Mavs fan, and I told him awhile back that Derrick is going to remember Dirks antics this upcoming season, and is going to get some revenge. In actuality, I'm HOPING thats the case. I mean look at Dirk. Is he a tough guy? Not even close. But he knows he'll be protected by the refs so he does stuff like that. Derrick can be a bad ass stay outta my face guy. He just needs to do it. I really really hope he gets T'd up this hearing wrecking Dirk on a play. He needs people to know he's arrived.
Gordo, with his "I'd be happy to bag those groceries for you mam" looks, is already going to have players consistently try to punk him. He needs to establish himself as someone who doesn't just take it laying down.
Its a must for good players, and a strong team.
As for this year, I would bet that DFav hasn't forgotten that time he was kinda punked by weak-ass Dirk. And he's probably got teammates and friends who also wont let him forget it. So I think he'll bring it. I think Kanter will bring it and already has some of it naturally. After that.....hmmmm Mo is pretty good actually. Mo will definitely bring that type of "we dont put up with that on this team" attitude and play. But I think thats it, those are our toughguys. But hopefully when one of our others are knocked down, one of those three will got chest to chest with someone.

TheMagnus wrote:

Found this interesting article on toughness over at SLC dunk.


http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/9/17/3348324/jazz-2012-roster-introversion-vs-extroversion-the-body-language-of

But it's also kind of like Porn, you know it when you see it, and I think we as Jazz fans would certainly like to see a little more of it this year.

I also don't think this can be a "lead from the rear" type of thing...

Wow, more porn for us Jazz fans, I'm all about it and willing to lead from the rear, but I like the front as well, so hard to choose.

Seriously, good points made. Call me crazy but I think Sap, Favors and DC are our going to be our tough dogs. In my book Sap is already the toughest and Favors is on the cusp with what I think will be new confidence and putting more on his own shoulders. I don't need Hayward to be tough, simply a Jeff Hornaceck. Nice shout out on DC, lets not forget that he didn't really start turning heads until he suddenly got off the pine and then he brought it big time, especially in that miserable SA series. But yes, as a team, they need to revert to the Old Jazz and regain the reputation as one of toughest in the league - you will be floor-burned, bruised and stiff when you get done doing battle with them, win or lose.

A couple minutes after the infamous DWest/Hayward incident (an incident that probably will end up defining Hayward career IMHO) Kanter have Delonte West in the air attacking the basket... and he didn't even foul the guy.... it's a team thing... you don't have to be a thug... it's a team thing... and it's not the fact that you have to be a "macho", it's the fact that you need this little toughness to finish the opponets score wise, defense wise, spirit wise...
Jazz just don't have it yet.

outerspacefan wrote:

A couple minutes after the infamous DWest/Hayward incident (an incident that probably will end up defining Hayward career IMHO) Kanter have Delonte West in the air attacking the basket... and he didn't even foul the guy.... it's a team thing... you don't have to be a thug... it's a team thing... and it's not the fact that you have to be a "macho", it's the fact that you need this little toughness to finish the opponets score wise, defense wise, spirit wise...
Jazz just don't have it yet.

Hope that does not define Hayward's career at all!!! That will be only more laughable when he is a highly coveted swing man, starting this season. Don't mistake a cool head for lack of toughness. Now, should Kanter have put psycho-West on the floor next time down? Most certainly. A rookie mistake hopefully, not testimony to him being a pussy. I have faith the Jazz will play some pretty hardnosed ball this year. Wouldn't surprise me if right out of the gates they are in better shape and more cohesive than anyone else. There are enough scrappers on the team it will keep the effort elevated.

Seeing Hayward attack the Basket more this yr in the preseason shows where his head is at. I'm glad he walked away from West last yr. It was the triple overtime win game against Dallas right? People talking trash isn't going to affect Hayward imo... even the ear thing or whatever West did to him shouldn't merit retaliation...A flagrant foul at the rim should merit retalitation or at least a chest bump. Not sure if Hayward would jump-up and do that to a guy but I know it would piss him off. You don't get to his level w/o having some vinegar in the veins.
I really want to see Favors develop the baby hook and a counter drop-step to his game. Both of these need to want to take some contact. Also, nothing wrong with having an elbow-out while making those moves. Ask Karl Malone, it's not dirty play. Once Favors gets those two down and a consistent jumper he's going to be an absolute beast on both ends.

I don't look at toughness as a guy that'll jump in a players face- willing to fight him if he hacks you. Look at the real tough guys that produce with knowing if they drive, and get fouled, it'll hurt, but it's better than shooting a 15-20 foot jumper all the time...especially early in games. Everyone tries to get to the rim when the team really needs a bucket in the fourth.
Allen Iverson was the best at drawing contact or one of them. Gordon, Pierce, Monta Ellis, Kobe, Rondo, Millsap, CP3, Deron, Wade, Rose, Maggette, LeBron.... Who else? All these guys are tough imo because they drive, take contact, and can finish or make their free throws. They WANT to go into halftime with a lead. They KNOW they'll get fouled hard but know a free throw is the same, and better, than a jumper.
How many times have we seen Kobe get into a fight? I can't remember one but he sure takes it out on a player by producing. He believes he's better than the guy that's guarding him, but more than that, he creates contact.. and yes, he's an a-hole and pampered by the refs but, his mindset isn't to attack with a fist, but attack with his body. He doesn't fade away when he's close to the basket, but jumps into the defender after a pump-fake. I know you're saying "duh" but watch. It's obvious the elite players, and tough players, don't fade as much as other players when they're 8-10 feet away from the basket. They have the confidence and experience to pump-fake, or pivet and jump into the defender--- rather than a fade-away or hurrying to get rid of the ball.
This is why I like Burks so much as far as being tough with driving. He may not finish , but with the elevation, he knows he'll draw contact with driving. It's what Kanter is learning- not going to the up-and-under as much. I hope.
Millsap may be the toughest on the team. He leans into players early on defense- not letting them get position until they fight for it... He may do this because he's a bit smaller but playing through injuries and attcking the basket are his trademarks as well. Favors has a lot to learn from Sap. I also think being tough is more than physical but not giving up on a play. It's why I liked AK (and still do) because he stuck with a play on defense... Tipped balls, diving after balls, following a layup or dunk with hustle because it's not guaranteed the person will make it on a fast break... all these things show toughness imo.. It's the extra-effort more than flexing a muscle after a dunk... which, btw, I'd like to see a bit more as well. I'd LIKE to see Favors flex after an especially good dunk. It gets everyones swag on. I HATE Kobes face when he dunks on a player but he's showing he's the man-- and his teammates are inspired.. Of course there's the player like End World Hunger that flexes more than a body-builder at a competition but you get my drift.... Even his antics he backs-up with tough defense.
What I like to see, that has incomparable reaches, is a tough foul at the rim. Say Favors knows the guy is going to get fouled or dunk the ball. Why not foul hard to ensure the guy has to earn it at the line? It gets in my craw more than anything when a player half-heartedly fouls and there's a three-point attempt at the line resulting. I know some players don't want to be an a-hole and everyones ultimately earning a living out there, but, you can foul hard, and tell your opponent to expect that everytime he tries to dunk.. Then do it!! It may make him decide to take a few more jumpers. In fact, I guarantee it will, and he'd want you on his team. This is an example of why we love Millsap and couldn't stand Boozer.
Jeffersons game imo, is pretty solid as far as toughness goes on defense. He won't get in a persons face much but he doesn't back-down on defense. I just wish he'd attack the rim more often. I know his game is about leverage and getting his guy off-balance but he just isn't an attack-the-basket type of player... Maybe once in a while would be nice to see rather than the baby-hook from 10 feet... just sayin.
Hate to bore ppl but I'm bored at work now so I'll go on... A player that's tough will also bring it in practice. It's a pride thing. It's why I liked Sloan so much.. bet his practices were intense. His mentality was; this is my job, this is your job, we're here to improve ----not bs around with our thumbs up our arzses. It's why I liked Billy Knight- not that I'd want to have him as a father-in-law.

Anyway, I think professionalism is the ultimate form of toughness. You've probably heard stories of Malone working out after a practice in his hotel room, or, Stockton being the ultimate professional with preparing for a game- not out at clubs late getting his "drink-on." We see this at our own work place. The co-workers we respect do their job first- then play on the net, or talk to others after the job is done. They go the extra mile with making sure nothing is left for the next shift, or next crew. It's how policemen become captains or how a grunt is noticed and becomes foreman at the construction site....... I see Hayward and Millsap as captains and foremen... not just guys happy to get their checks. If Favors is surrounded by this professionalism, and Burks, and Lantern, they'll have no choice but to improve or look lazy. It's contagious.
So supposedly Mo and Marvin, and even Randy are upgrades on the defensive end over Devin, Raja, and CJ... We'll see, not that I have my doubts. They should on that comparison alone (threes not withstanding) help the Jazz win more games.

Excited for the season!!