Tie Up That Junkyard Dog!!!

I know it is very early in the season, but shouldn't we tie up Carroll right now for longer term? I think his value will steadily increase as the season goes on, and if we don't extend him, he becomes a free agent next summer. He makes things happen. He is a hustler; he is a fighter. I think he has actually improved his shooting. His shot looks pretty smooth. I think he will continue to be able to continue to hit a wide open, mid range jump shot at a reasonable percentage. JMO.

One of many interesting stats for the Junkyard Dog: He is leading the Jazz in positive plus/minus per minute played by a pretty wide margin.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=Jazz

Crunchtime1 wrote:

I know it is very early in the season, but shouldn't we tie up Carroll right now for longer term? I think his value will steadily increase as the season goes on, and if we don't extend him, he becomes a free agent next summer. He makes things happen. He is a hustler; he is a fighter. I think he has actually improved his shooting. His shot looks pretty smooth. I think he will continue to be able to continue to hit a wide open, mid range jump shot at a reasonable percentage. JMO.

One of many interesting stats for the Junkyard Dog: He is leading the Jazz in positive plus/minus per minute played by a pretty wide margin.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=Jazz

I would say yes. I hope he sticks around for a long time. He reminds me of Harp. Do the dirty work. Matt was a little more, whats the word? Dirty, but he was a huge asset for us.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

I know it is very early in the season, but shouldn't we tie up Carroll right now for longer term? I think his value will steadily increase as the season goes on, and if we don't extend him, he becomes a free agent next summer. He makes things happen. He is a hustler; he is a fighter. I think he has actually improved his shooting. His shot looks pretty smooth. I think he will continue to be able to continue to hit a wide open, mid range jump shot at a reasonable percentage. JMO.

One of many interesting stats for the Junkyard Dog: He is leading the Jazz in positive plus/minus per minute played by a pretty wide margin.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=Jazz

All about making DC a Jazz player for at least 3 years. Glue guy. He will get some exposure for sure this season and the Jazz will have to pay market value for him but I think he is worth whatever that is. Solid number 6-7 guy and can start in a pinch and do fine as we saw last season. Every team needs a DC.

A lot of things Demarre does don't show up in the stats, such as help defense, pressuring the ball, boxing out and raising team energy. Even so, his overall stats are looking pretty darn good. He is now ranked number six for "qualified" small forwards on ESPN's Hollinger PER. Marvin and Hayward don't beat him in any of the ESPN rankings: PER, VA and EWA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf

He also consistently ranks well on the Tendex/48 mins, another measure of overall productivity. Here, he ranks fourth on the Jazz, behind Jefferson, Millsap and Favors.

http://www.dougstats.com/12-13/UtahJazz.html

He is still a Jazz leader in plus/minus per minute, as I mentioned in the first post, although this morning Tinsley is beating him out by 1/1000 of a point.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=Jazz

My suggestion to extend him while he was still dirt cheap was a good one ---imho. I suspect his value has already risen considerably since I first made the suggestion on November 20th, when we first saw a Demarre for three games that not only brought the same great hustle that he brought last year, but also a Demarre that brought a better looking shooting stroke to the arena.

It may still not be too late to extend him. Has the deadline passed? I still think the possibility should be explored.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

It may still not be too late to extend him. Has the deadline passed? I still think the possibility should be explored.

I do not think there is a deadline for extending players as long as they are not on Rookie contracts. Unfortunately the same rules that prevented the Jazz from signing Millsap to an extension would likely prevent Demarre from being extended.

The rules say that extensions for players on non-rookie contracts can only be a total of 4 years including any years remaining on the current contract and the salary can only be within +/- 7.5% of their current contract. Meaning that the most the Jazz could offer Carroll in an extension right now would be 3 years and $3 Million, which is basically the veteran minimum. I'm not sure that he would have gone for that when he signed his non-guaranteed deal before the season (Evans got 3 years and $5 Million), and he definitely isn't going to take that now.

The Jazz are going to be very, very busy this summer....

TheMagnus wrote:

Crunchtime1 wrote:

It may still not be too late to extend him. Has the deadline passed? I still think the possibility should be explored.

I do not think there is a deadline for extending players as long as they are not on Rookie contracts. Unfortunately the same rules that prevented the Jazz from signing Millsap to an extension would likely prevent Demarre from being extended.

The rules say that extensions for players on non-rookie contracts can only be a total of 4 years including any years remaining on the current contract and the salary can only be within +/- 7.5% of their current contract. Meaning that the most the Jazz could offer Carroll in an extension right now would be 3 years and $3 Million, which is basically the veteran minimum. I'm not sure that he would have gone for that when he signed his non-guaranteed deal before the season (Evans got 3 years and $5 Million), and he definitely isn't going to take that now.

The Jazz are going to be very, very busy this summer....

I like DC a lot. And, he has tremendous potential. But, I'm not sure why he would pass up an offer of $3mil for 3 years. If the Jazz made that offer, I think it would be hard for DC to pass it up. I don't know anything about how DC likes playing for the Jazz in SLC-- and that could be a factor. But, if DC wants a future in the NBA, he'll need a team willing to develop him-- which is what the Jazz are doing.

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Crunchtime1 wrote:

It may still not be too late to extend him. Has the deadline passed? I still think the possibility should be explored.

I do not think there is a deadline for extending players as long as they are not on Rookie contracts. Unfortunately the same rules that prevented the Jazz from signing Millsap to an extension would likely prevent Demarre from being extended.

The rules say that extensions for players on non-rookie contracts can only be a total of 4 years including any years remaining on the current contract and the salary can only be within +/- 7.5% of their current contract. Meaning that the most the Jazz could offer Carroll in an extension right now would be 3 years and $3 Million, which is basically the veteran minimum. I'm not sure that he would have gone for that when he signed his non-guaranteed deal before the season (Evans got 3 years and $5 Million), and he definitely isn't going to take that now.

The Jazz are going to be very, very busy this summer....

I like DC a lot. And, he has tremendous potential. But, I'm not sure why he would pass up an offer of $3mil for 3 years. If the Jazz made that offer, I think it would be hard for DC to pass it up. I don't know anything about how DC likes playing for the Jazz in SLC-- and that could be a factor. But, if DC wants a future in the NBA, he'll need a team willing to develop him-- which is what the Jazz are doing.

Because he can likely get the vet minimum anywhere he goes, without making a long term commitment, that's why won't take it. In order to tie him up long term you would have to sweeten the deal, he's already proven he can play and he's 26 years old, so there's simply no incentive for him to take a deal that is literally the least amount of money he could make in the NBA over the next 3 years. I don't think his agent would allow him to take that deal, and I think he'd be foolish to take that deal. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my feel for the situation.

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Crunchtime1 wrote:

It may still not be too late to extend him. Has the deadline passed? I still think the possibility should be explored.

I do not think there is a deadline for extending players as long as they are not on Rookie contracts. Unfortunately the same rules that prevented the Jazz from signing Millsap to an extension would likely prevent Demarre from being extended.

The rules say that extensions for players on non-rookie contracts can only be a total of 4 years including any years remaining on the current contract and the salary can only be within +/- 7.5% of their current contract. Meaning that the most the Jazz could offer Carroll in an extension right now would be 3 years and $3 Million, which is basically the veteran minimum. I'm not sure that he would have gone for that when he signed his non-guaranteed deal before the season (Evans got 3 years and $5 Million), and he definitely isn't going to take that now.

The Jazz are going to be very, very busy this summer....

I like DC a lot. And, he has tremendous potential. But, I'm not sure why he would pass up an offer of $3mil for 3 years. If the Jazz made that offer, I think it would be hard for DC to pass it up. I don't know anything about how DC likes playing for the Jazz in SLC-- and that could be a factor. But, if DC wants a future in the NBA, he'll need a team willing to develop him-- which is what the Jazz are doing.

Saint, based on his play last year and this he is no fluke. He would be CRAZY not to sign a something in the neighborhood of $3M per and he will command that or more in the free market. The weirdest thing about Jazz extensions is they so far have felt obliged only to offer one to Evans (accepted) and Sap. Lots of dice gonna roll this year, no two ways about that. Knowing the GM's, they have a plan, we're just going to have to wait and see.

TheMagnus wrote:

I do not think there is a deadline for extending players as long as they are not on Rookie contracts. Unfortunately the same rules that prevented the Jazz from signing Millsap to an extension would likely prevent Demarre from being extended.

The rules say that extensions for players on non-rookie contracts can only be a total of 4 years including any years remaining on the current contract and the salary can only be within +/- 7.5% of their current contract. Meaning that the most the Jazz could offer Carroll in an extension right now would be 3 years and $3 Million, which is basically the veteran minimum. I'm not sure that he would have gone for that when he signed his non-guaranteed deal before the season (Evans got 3 years and $5 Million), and he definitely isn't going to take that now.

The Jazz are going to be very, very busy this summer....

OK. Thanks. I didn't know the Jazz were severely constrained concerning what they could offer him. My idea to extend him now is a non starter. LOL.

This reeks of Wes Mathews. Let some other team pay out the nose for him in order to find out that he's really not that good. The Jazz don't need to waste money on "glue guys" like DC. The fact that people are comparing him to Harpring should tell you all you need to know, all while scaring the living shit out of you.

TroutBum wrote:

This reeks of Wes Mathews. Let some other team pay out the nose for him in order to find out that he's really not that good. The Jazz don't need to waste money on "glue guys" like DC. The fact that people are comparing him to Harpring should tell you all you need to know, all while scaring the living shit out of you.

It takes all kinds of contracts, players and roles to put together a team. And most players are either overpaid or underpaid. You need a few underpaid, bargain guys on teams to offset the guys that teams inevitably overpay. At $885,000 per year, Demarre is clearly underpaid and a bargain, and he could be paid quite a bit more and still be a bargain imo.

As of November 20th, when I started this thread, Demarre had spent a lot of his NBA career on the bubble, playing in the D-League, not dressing for some games, being active but DNP for other games, and being waived twice. He appeared in a lot of games his rookie season at Memphis, the 09/10 season, but he only averaged 2.9 points on 39% shooting with zero made three pointers. For the 10/11 season, Memphis sent him to the D-League. He appeared in 7 of Memphis' first 57 games before being traded at the deadline to the Rockets. At the Rockets, he only got off the bench for six games, playing a total of 17 mins before being waived by the Rockets on April 11th, 2011. For the 2011/12 season, he was signed by Denver for a one year deal at or near minimum pay. He appeared in five games for Denver, playing a total of 20 mins before being waived by the Nuggets on Feb 4, 2012.

The Jazz picked up Carroll off waivers on Feb 8, 2012, for a minimum salary for the remainder of the 11/12 season and for a minimum salary for the 12/13 season at the Jazz team option. Demarre started out his career with the Jazz as "the inactive guy", the guy not good enough to put on a uniform, sitting on the bench in street clothes. We all wondered who the heck that guy sitting there in street clothes was. Carroll played a total of 3 mins his first 21 games with the Jazz. He finally got a break in a home win against the mighty Thunder, helping limit Kevin Durant to 6 of 22 shooting --- I think . He then went on to appear in 18 of the Jazz' last 20 games, making lots of hustle plays but not shooting very well. Then the Jazz picked up Marvin over the summer. Demarre once again found himself the odd man out at the beginning of this season, only appearing in four of the first nine games. He finally got decent game time in successive games on Nov 16, 17 and 19th and played well. So there you have it: Demarre's history as an NBA player on the bubble.

Given his history on the bubble, and given my inkling after those games on Nov 16, 17 and 19 that we were looking at a Demarre with a new and improved shooting stroke, my idea on November 20th was that we might be able to lock him up for a three or four year contract at 2 to 2.5 mill per year contract. When you have been on the bubble and have been waived twice, I would think that kind of security would sound pretty attractive, but alas Magnus informed me that NBA rules prevent the Jazz from offering him anything even close to 2 mill per year on an extension. On another note, I suppose I sound callous here, wanting to get Demarre as cheap as possible. In an ideal world, I would force Marvin, an overpaid guy imo, to give up a little salary to Demarre, but obviously that is not going to happen. As a selfish fan, I just want the Jazz to have enough salary flexibility to sign enough good players to compete at the highest levels.

Regarding your comment about Matthews and paying out the nose, I doubt another team is going to "pay out the nose" for Carroll. Matthews was a rookie coming off a good season, so it was not a total shock that there was at least one team out there that was willing to price in a lot more upside. Carroll is a now a 26 year old veteran coming off a career mostly on the bubble, and he will be coming off a season next summer where his role will mainly be a hustle, energy player. Despite his seeming shooting improvement, he will very likely remain the fifth scoring option on the floor, perhaps moving up to fourth when Tinsley or Watson are on the floor instead of Mo. Hopefully we will still be able to re-sign Demarre next summer for three to three and a half million dollars per season. JMO.

I would also point out the fact that Matthews actually is "that good", and worth every dollar of his mid-level salary, and that is a perfect example in support of keeping the young guys who perform, even if it costs you a little more than you think it should.

TheMagnus wrote:

I would also point out the fact that Matthews actually is "that good", and worth every dollar of his mid-level salary, and that is a perfect example in support of keeping the young guys who perform, even if it costs you a little more than you think it should.

Yes, I agree. Matthews is having a nice season. I thought about opening up that argument that Matthews is fairly paid, but concluded I already had enough arguments going centered on Demarre. By the way, when I said Marvin is overpaid above, I was under the impression that he was set to earn 10 mill per season next year. I don't know how I got that in my mind, but I see on your State of the Jazz thread that he is set to earn 7.5 million at his option next season, which is quite a bit more reasonable than 10 million.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I would also point out the fact that Matthews actually is "that good", and worth every dollar of his mid-level salary, and that is a perfect example in support of keeping the young guys who perform, even if it costs you a little more than you think it should.

Yes, I agree. Matthews is having a nice season. I thought about opening up that argument that Matthews is fairly paid, but concluded I already had enough arguments going centered on Demarre. By the way, when I said Marvin is overpaid above, I was under the impression that he was set to earn 10 mill per season next year. I don't know how I got that in my mind, but I see on your State of the Jazz thread that he is set to earn 7.5 million at his option next season, which is quite a bit more reasonable than 10 million.

Nice post on the previous one, Crunch. Got you a kudos point from me. Demarre is more than an energy glue guy IMO. He is coming into his prime, (late bloomer obviously) and that shooting stroke isn't a fluke - he flat out worked on it and it shows. He is perfect second rotation guy and can pinch hit as a starter, not to mention someone to throw at the Durant's of the world. Tie up that junkyard dog indeed - on the open market, unfortunately. Have no idea why they didn't extend him when he was on the super bubble, like after last year's nice end of season showing.

MTJazz wrote:

Demarre is more than an energy glue guy IMO. He is coming into his prime, (late bloomer obviously) and that shooting stroke isn't a fluke - he flat out worked on it and it shows. He is perfect second rotation guy and can pinch hit as a starter, not to mention someone to throw at the Durant's of the world.

If guys start regularly passing Demarre the ball when he is open and he continues to knock them down, then the three to three and a half million per year we mentioned probably won't be enough. But I guess that would be a good problem to have.

MTJazz wrote:

Tie up that junkyard dog indeed - on the open market, unfortunately. Have no idea why they didn't extend him when he was on the super bubble, like after last year's nice end of season showing.

I am not sure there was any point between the end of last season and now that they could have offered him an extension where those limitations that Mags pointed out above would not have come in to play. The Jazz may have only been able to offer him an extension 7.5% above the veteran's minimum during that entire period, and just based on the fact he became a rotation player at the end of last season, he and his agent probably wouldn't have taken it.