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 Free Kanter

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Richardale
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:22 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
outerspacefan wrote:
Sorry Mut... Paul won't be with the Jazz next season.

While I give the odds at 50:50, why do you think otherwise? I think Paul would be happy to play with the Jazz until retirement IF he doesn't get interest from either an obvious upper echelon contending now team or sick money that simply can't be refused for a basement dweller. League economics are changing quickly, mad money won't fly as fast as days previous. I think if the Jazz offered him a competitive though non-insane salary he would bite; the club has potential to make some noise in the next 3 years with some smart pick-ups and young core. Paul is "under-rated", this late in his career, and he hasn't exactly made that "appropriately rated" with his play this year, no one is going to see him as a franchise build-around player. He is an awesome complimentary piece, not the #1 guy, but high quality second/third option.

Agree with all of that.

I look at him in a similar role to David West with the Pacers if the Jazz keep him going forward. He and West are almost the same player only West is 4 years older. West is arguably the Pacers best all around player this season but he really flies under the radar, just quietly doing what he does and doing it damn well. That is exactly what Millsap does, and while I acknowledge that he may not be back next year, I really really hope he is, and that he stays a Jazz man his whole career.
We have seen the best out of paul thanks to JS and as long as paul is here our young big will never reach there best coming off the bench? Plz move on paul and i wish him the best! Bring on a coach that can bring the most out of our young guys. Tired of watching this coach not bringing it out! More likely killing it off?
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:51 pm

I wonder what will happen, but I'd bet he's more likely to be resigned then not. And I hope they do resign him. He's a great player.

And this stuff about our bigs never coming into their own is silly. First of all, Paul/Kanter/Fav next year can all get 25mins plus. That is not an issue. Secondly, Kanter is only 20, and although he's obviously a stud, and I called it from the beginning Wink , I'm not even sure he's ready to be the full time starter. Can he handle Duncan for example? I dont know.... But keeping Paul means he wont have to, yet will get starter minutes. Shoot, they can even all 3 play together in the infamous Big 3 lineup. Kanter has 14 years or so left in his NBA career, we've got time to burn.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:57 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
I wonder what will happen, but I'd bet he's more likely to be resigned then not. And I hope they do resign him. He's a great player.

And this stuff about our bigs never coming into their own is silly. First of all, Paul/Kanter/Fav next year can all get 25mins plus. That is not an issue. Secondly, Kanter is only 20, and although he's obviously a stud, and I called it from the beginning Wink , I'm not even sure he's ready to be the full time starter. Can he handle Duncan for example? I dont know.... But keeping Paul means he wont have to, yet will get starter minutes. Shoot, they can even all 3 play together in the infamous Big 3 lineup. Kanter has 14 years or so left in his NBA career, we've got time to burn.


Exactly. Silly indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:28 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
Can he handle Duncan for example? I don't know.... But keeping Paul means he wont have to, yet will get starter minutes. Shoot, they can even all 3 play together in the infamous Big 3 lineup. Kanter has 14 years or so left in his NBA career, we've got time to burn.

Well, no one can seem to handle the ageless wonder Timmy D, but yes, Kanter is ready to start. He is the most efficient player per minute on the team, has no obvious gaping defensive flaws ala Al, can become, easily, a perennial top 10 rebounder in the league and his offensive game is just flat out good already and still blossoming. I know I will never win an argument with Mags on this, but he has alredy outplayed Favors this year. I would LOVE to see Kanter/Favors/Paul on the floor at the same time as a sometimes starting unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:23 pm

MTJazz wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
Can he handle Duncan for example? I don't know.... But keeping Paul means he wont have to, yet will get starter minutes. Shoot, they can even all 3 play together in the infamous Big 3 lineup. Kanter has 14 years or so left in his NBA career, we've got time to burn.

Well, no one can seem to handle the ageless wonder Timmy D, but yes, Kanter is ready to start. He is the most efficient player per minute on the team, has no obvious gaping defensive flaws ala Al, can become, easily, a perennial top 10 rebounder in the league and his offensive game is just flat out good already and still blossoming. I know I will never win an argument with Mags on this, but he has alredy outplayed Favors this year. I would LOVE to see Kanter/Favors/Paul on the floor at the same time as a sometimes starting unit.

Preaching to the choir buddy!! I was calling it from the beginning, how good he was.... You know I love me some Kanter. And I agree with everything you say. But I think we could have the luxury of all 3, with no detriment to anyone, so why not?

It is interesting though, that Favors gets all the nasty dunks, and nasty swats, but a good amount of us would say that Kanter has outplayed him. I'd lean that way, but more than anything, I think he's going exactly as planned when KOC drafted Kanter, and it was to be the perfect compliment to Favors. GREAT PICK AT #3 What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:16 pm

MTJazz wrote:
outerspacefan wrote:
Sorry Mut... Paul won't be with the Jazz next season.

While I give the odds at 50:50, why do you think otherwise? I think Paul would be happy to play with the Jazz until retirement IF he doesn't get interest from either an obvious upper echelon contending now team or sick money that simply can't be refused for a basement dweller. League economics are changing quickly, mad money won't fly as fast as days previous. I think if the Jazz offered him a competitive though non-insane salary he would bite; the club has potential to make some noise in the next 3 years with some smart pick-ups and young core. Paul is "under-rated", this late in his career, and he hasn't exactly made that "appropriately rated" with his play this year, no one is going to see him as a franchise build-around player. He is an awesome complimentary piece, not the #1 guy, but high quality second/third option.

Just to follow up on this with the valuation of Paul and Al when free agency comes.

Different teams have different philosophies, some teams, like the Jazz, Grizzlies, Trailblazers, Mavericks, Pacers...have made a transition to a more analytical system of evaluating players with scouting to support the data, while others still cling doggedly to a classic scouting approach with a little analytics mixed in. Here's a quote form a scout on Paul Millsap...

Quote :

I think it’s bigger than Al. When I look at Mo Williams, I don’t see a great defender there. What I see in him and Randy Foye, is guys who are kind of soft defensively. I don’t see real toughness or intensity. I don’t think Mo or Randy Foye are great defenders.

I think Millsap, he tries. I like Millsap, I really do, I just think he’d be best suited to be a bench player. A guy who could come off the bench, give you some points, give you some versatility.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/56012223-87/defense-jazz-think-jefferson.html.csp?page=2

Now I know there are a lot of Jazz fans that absolutely agree with that assessment, and as an NBA scout you would assume this guy is pretty smart and knows the game of basketball, and I think he absolutely does. What this illustrates is not that scouts are as stupid as the rest of us, but rather the difference between two basic philosophies.

I can tell you right now that the teams that use an analytics based approach are going to be VERY interested in Paul Millsap. They don't view him as some role player that isn't good enough to be a starter in the NBA and would be better as a 6th man, they see him as a super skilled and versatile forward that regardless of where he is used would be a top 3 player on a good team. They will stay away form Al Jefferson because of the overwhelming statistical evidence that in spite of he gaudy numbers he does not, and has not, helped his teams be truly successful. They will feel like Millsap is worth more than his current pay, and they will feel like Jefferson is worth less.

On the other side, the teams that use a more traditional approach are going to be very interested in Al Jefferson. The biggest reasons they will give is that he is a "true center" and his skill set in that position is very rare, and rare things are valuable. They will say exactly what this scout said, that his failures have been as much about his teamates as they are about him, and in the right situation his failings can be hidden. They are going to look at Millsap and use words like "undersized" and "tweener" and they will argue that his "success" is probably partially a product of Utah's system (a-la Carlos Boozer). The will feel like paying Millsap more than he is making now is too much for a "role player" and they will view Jefferson as possible Keystone piece worthy of near max money.

This is why I think the Jazz have a decent chance of keeping Millsap. Of the "analytics" teams out there I think there are only a few that will have the money and need to make a run at him. I think that will keep his price reasonable and I think as long as someone doesn't make an outrageous offer I the Jazz will make Millsap at least a matching offer to stay in Utah.



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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:06 pm

In response to the above post by Magnus....

While I am not new necessarily in 100% agreement all of the time with you when it comes to Millsap (who I like and value..... just not as much as you), I have to say that this particular post is very well written and thought out. I can appreciate what you are saying and think this is a very valid point of view.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:21 pm

Dallas. Analytics. Mark Cuban. Huge cap space. That there could spell trouble for hanging onto Sap. Put CP3 with Dirk, Mayo and Sap and suddenly they are relevant again. Speaking of Mayo, he has a player option next year at around $4MM and he definitely is due for a major raise...Jazz material?
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:26 am

MTJazz wrote:
Dallas. Analytics. Mark Cuban. Huge cap space. That there could spell trouble for hanging onto Sap. Put CP3 with Dirk, Mayo and Sap and suddenly they are relevant again. Speaking of Mayo, he has a player option next year at around $4MM and he definitely is due for a major raise...Jazz material?

Mayo was the player I was hoping the Jazz would get instead of Foye last summer. I wouldn't necessarily want the team to spend big money on him, but I'd rather see the Jazz spend 6 million on Mayo than 4 million Foye.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:58 am

zero24gravity wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
Dallas. Analytics. Mark Cuban. Huge cap space. That there could spell trouble for hanging onto Sap. Put CP3 with Dirk, Mayo and Sap and suddenly they are relevant again. Speaking of Mayo, he has a player option next year at around $4MM and he definitely is due for a major raise...Jazz material?

Mayo was the player I was hoping the Jazz would get instead of Foye last summer. I wouldn't necessarily want the team to spend big money on him, but I'd rather see the Jazz spend 6 million on Mayo than 4 million Foye.

Mayo is a solid player, definitely agree on the assessment of Foye vs. Mayo.

Interesting note to go along with that, Here's Burks numbers since the All-Star Break...

26 minutes, 10 pts, 3.8 reb, 2.3 ast, 1 stl, 2.1 TO on 44/42/65 shooting.

Those are quality numbers in quality minutes.

Compare that to Mayo since the All-Star Break...

35 minutes, 13.2 pts, 3.4 reb, 4.5 ast, .8 stl, 1.8 TO on 45/43/63 shooting.

Now I would definitely say the advantage goes to Mayo because he has maintained that all season where Burks has not, but Burks is also 21, while Mayo is 25.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:34 pm

So, what does Kanter have to do to get Ty's attention? For some reason, (because he is thick?), he like many in Jazz nation simply assume Favors is somehow a better player and deserves better minutes. BS. Kanter has been handily outplaying Favors for months now. His minutes chart is hilariously sad, up, down, up, down, down, upn, no matter the fact that he consistently kicks ass when he gets more than 7 minutes a game. He wouldn't have seen the floor tonight against the Mavs in the second half if not for the ass kicking Dallas was giving Utah.

I have to remember to breathe hear...this season will end soon...Ty will be gone...Kanter will get his chance.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:32 pm

MTJazz wrote:
So, what does Kanter have to do to get Ty's attention? For some reason, (because he is thick?), he like many in Jazz nation simply assume Favors is somehow a better player and deserves better minutes. BS. Kanter has been handily outplaying Favors for months now. His minutes chart is hilariously sad, up, down, up, down, down, upn, no matter the fact that he consistently kicks ass when he gets more than 7 minutes a game. He wouldn't have seen the floor tonight against the Mavs in the second half if not for the ass kicking Dallas was giving Utah.

I have to remember to breathe hear...this season will end soon...Ty will be gone...Kanter will get his chance.

More important than Ty is that Jefferson will be gone. Jefferson and Kanter don't really do that well together, and since Ty is wedded to his veterans, Kanter loses that one every time. If Jefferson is playing, Kanter isn't, it's really that simple.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:15 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
So, what does Kanter have to do to get Ty's attention? For some reason, (because he is thick?), he like many in Jazz nation simply assume Favors is somehow a better player and deserves better minutes. BS. Kanter has been handily outplaying Favors for months now. His minutes chart is hilariously sad, up, down, up, down, down, upn, no matter the fact that he consistently kicks ass when he gets more than 7 minutes a game. He wouldn't have seen the floor tonight against the Mavs in the second half if not for the ass kicking Dallas was giving Utah.

I have to remember to breathe hear...this season will end soon...Ty will be gone...Kanter will get his chance.

More important than Ty is that Jefferson will be gone. Jefferson and Kanter don't really do that well together, and since Ty is wedded to his veterans, Kanter loses that one every time. If Jefferson is playing, Kanter isn't, it's really that simple.

Not only is MT correct to note that it seems to be inconceivable to people that Kanter has been outplaying Favors, but...

What are the odds that Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) can accept the fact that Kanter has basically been replacing or outdoing Jefferson's production when given solid minutes?? (not counting the 5 min/half stints) And if he can't look at and accept the simple pts/reb numbers, how likely is he to perceive defense, hustle plays and overall team effectiveness?

I put the likelihood at below 0%.

But I know nothing, and Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013)'s a basketball lifer, he knows more about the game than anybody, blahdeblah. "We need Al's experience in there.", "Al's got go-to moves, etc., etc" Ty knows best.

Now, what are the odds Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) can/will step back and deal with the questions:
"How many actual WINS have come from those go-to moves, and that experience?"
"How well does the team actually play, in terms of, you know, OUTSCORING THE OTHER TEAM, with AL's $15 million go-to experience in there?"
"IS. IT. WORKING?"

I know, I know, it's tiresome, steamrollering the same equine corpse over and over...but, as Willy Shakespeare used to say:

Groom: "When 'twere alive, yon stallion's effort e'er increased,
when quirt were firm applied, until it ceased."

King: "Then beat it, lad! Perhaps, though dead, it might still thus be spurred."

Groom: "Yes, sire! Till fixed, or till the equine's death be twice assured."

Act II, Trollificus and Cressida
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:06 am

I don't think this is a Favors vs Kanter issue. Enes' lack of minutes is a Kanter vs Al issue. Favors and Kanter are totaly different players that can & should co-exist on the floor very well together. Kanter & Al are simliar, as post players/offensive threats. Derrick, to me, has done nothing wrong & is also improving, but will probably never be a good offensive player. But he does block shots, alter many more & make a athletic difference out there, even if he does make bad offensive choices from time to time. (His FT's & J have improved though.)

I want to see Kanter out there as well, but since Al isn't losing minutes anytime soon, who would you rather see out there with Jefferson? Kanter, another black-hole post up player, or Favors, who can cover-up some of Al's terrible D & lack of athletisism?

I like Kanter, and am starting to see that he may very well be the better overall player between the two young bigs in the long run, but considering the current make-up of the team, where Al dominates the minutes & the ball, Favors is the more logical choice to have on the floor IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:18 am

zero24gravity wrote:


I like Kanter, and am starting to see that he may very well be the better overall player between the two young bigs in the long run, but considering the current make-up of the team, where Al dominates the minutes & the ball, Favors is the more logical choice to have on the floor IMO.

Well, that has certainly been Ty's logic, and we see where that has gotten the team so far. Once again the finger of accusation is back on Al - no one can play with him and do well?

And, Kanter is far from a black hole - I will represent his honor in any attempts to prematurely paint him as Big Al v.2.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:44 am

MTJazz wrote:
zero24gravity wrote:


I like Kanter, and am starting to see that he may very well be the better overall player between the two young bigs in the long run, but considering the current make-up of the team, where Al dominates the minutes & the ball, Favors is the more logical choice to have on the floor IMO.

Well, that has certainly been Ty's logic, and we see where that has gotten the team so far. Once again the finger of accusation is back on Al - no one can play with him and do well?

And, Kanter is far from a black hole - I will represent his honor in any attempts to prematurely paint him as Big Al v.2.

No, no, no .... not saying Al v.2. I'm saying that right now, neither willingly passes out of the post (Kanter may be even less willing). Kanter already shows better D, more toughness, better aggression & a more complete overall game when given the minutes. I'm sure (well, almost sure) that the passing/recognizing when to pass will improve with time for Kanter.

So, not Al V.2, just a comparison of one part of their game that is a simliar weakness. Difference is, Enes is young & will likely improve in this area.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:20 pm

< 4 min in a blowout?? Did he get hurt??
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:30 pm

Trollificus wrote:
< 4 min in a blowout?? Did he get hurt??

Yes. Dislocated (or separated) shoulder. MRI tomorrow. Could be done for season.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:59 pm

The Voice of Reason wrote:
Trollificus wrote:
< 4 min in a blowout?? Did he get hurt??

Yes. Dislocated (or separated) shoulder. MRI tomorrow. Could be done for season.

Daaaaamn! I guess the end of the season is a good time for that injury though. Having separated my shoulder myself I know it takes several months to get it back and it all depends on degree of injury. Dislocates can be far worse for longterm. Here's hoping he will be OK.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:17 pm

MTJazz wrote:
The Voice of Reason wrote:
Trollificus wrote:
< 4 min in a blowout?? Did he get hurt??

Yes. Dislocated (or separated) shoulder. MRI tomorrow. Could be done for season.

Daaaaamn! I guess the end of the season is a good time for that injury though. Having separated my shoulder myself I know it takes several months to get it back and it all depends on degree of injury. Dislocates can be far worse for longterm. Here's hoping he will be OK.

Again, MRI is tomorrow. Hope it's not that bad.
I was just passing on some preliminary speculation that I had heard.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:31 am

The Voice of Reason wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
The Voice of Reason wrote:
Trollificus wrote:
< 4 min in a blowout?? Did he get hurt??

Yes. Dislocated (or separated) shoulder. MRI tomorrow. Could be done for season.

Daaaaamn! I guess the end of the season is a good time for that injury though. Having separated my shoulder myself I know it takes several months to get it back and it all depends on degree of injury. Dislocates can be far worse for longterm. Here's hoping he will be OK.

Again, MRI is tomorrow. Hope it's not that bad.
I was just passing on some preliminary speculation that I had heard.

Diving on the floor for a loose ball.... what a way to go out. Looks like our (slim) hopes of seeing a minute increase down the stretch for Enes is shot. Crying or Very sad Get well Kanter!
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:44 am

zero24gravity wrote:
The Voice of Reason wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
The Voice of Reason wrote:
Trollificus wrote:
< 4 min in a blowout?? Did he get hurt??

Yes. Dislocated (or separated) shoulder. MRI tomorrow. Could be done for season.

Daaaaamn! I guess the end of the season is a good time for that injury though. Having separated my shoulder myself I know it takes several months to get it back and it all depends on degree of injury. Dislocates can be far worse for longterm. Here's hoping he will be OK.

Again, MRI is tomorrow. Hope it's not that bad.
I was just passing on some preliminary speculation that I had heard.

Diving on the floor for a loose ball.... what a way to go out. Looks like our (slim) hopes of seeing a minute increase down the stretch for Enes is shot. Crying or Very sad Get well Kanter!

The Des News indicated "a couple weeks" but I am seriously skeptical of that prognosis. You dislocate your shoulder like that and there is lots of angry imflamed, stretched and torn tissue up there. Sadly, probably time to shut Underkanter down. Not worth risking re-injury and chronic shoulder issues so early in his career. Dude gave it his all this year, one of the few bright spots on the team.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:14 pm

Enes Kanter caught the attention of reporters before Thursday's practice when he walked from the locker room to the weight room.

It was the first time he's been seen without wearing a sling for his dislocated left shoulder since that injury happened nine days ago.

That's gotta be a sign of progression for the second-year center, right? Or, well … oops.

"He didn't have his sling on?" a curious but smiling Jazz coach Tyrone Corbin asked after it was brought up in his pre-practice interview.

"He's supposed to have it on."



Enes is a young guy & I'm sure, like most young men, he thinks he is invincible & will just heal up like magic (I know I did .... and still do to a certain extent). Doesn't sound like there's any kind of time table for his return. From what I've read the team still doesn't even know if this is something that will heal itself, or if it will need some kind of procedure to get fixed up. I was really hoping to see him back for the playoffs (if the team makes it), but I also hope even more that he takes enough time to be 100%. Last thing the Jazz & Kanter need is for this to become a chronic thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:27 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
Enes Kanter caught the attention of reporters before Thursday's practice when he walked from the locker room to the weight room.

It was the first time he's been seen without wearing a sling for his dislocated left shoulder since that injury happened nine days ago.

That's gotta be a sign of progression for the second-year center, right? Or, well … oops.

"He didn't have his sling on?" a curious but smiling Jazz coach Tyrone Corbin asked after it was brought up in his pre-practice interview.

"He's supposed to have it on."



Enes is a young guy & I'm sure, like most young men, he thinks he is invincible & will just heal up like magic (I know I did .... and still do to a certain extent). Doesn't sound like there's any kind of time table for his return. From what I've read the team still doesn't even know if this is something that will heal itself, or if it will need some kind of procedure to get fixed up. I was really hoping to see him back for the playoffs (if the team makes it), but I also hope even more that he takes enough time to be 100%. Last thing the Jazz & Kanter need is for this to become a chronic thing.


Word I'm seeing is that most are doubtful that he plays again this season.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:15 pm

Looks like it's official, Playoffs or not, Kanter is done...

Quote :

Utah Jazz center Enes Kanter will miss the remainder of the season regardless of a postseason run, multiple sources confirmed to The Salt Lake Tribune. Kanter, the second-year former lottery pick, dislocated his left shoulder in the first half of a March 27 win against Phoenix when he and Suns center Hamed Haddadi both chased a loose ball onto the floor.



http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/56130562-62/kanter-jazz-season-week.html.csp

Also heard he will be getting "minor" surgery.
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PostSubject: Re: Free Kanter   

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Free Kanter
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