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 Gordon's watch

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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:03 pm

TheMagnus wrote:


And of course I sound like Sloan, and pretty much every other NBA coach.

Only coach who was subbing by the clock like a robot was Sloan as far as I remember. No matter what was going on on the floor, if player was hot or not at certain time he was subbed out. So when you say that no matter what, Gordon is going to have playing time you sound like a Sloan;).
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:08 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
Hayward isn't some guy who's just a niche role player, he's almost as good or better at every part of the game of basketball than all of the Jazz other wings. All other things being equal, there is no matchup where the Jazz would be better off with him on the bench.

I strongly disagree. Burks is much better at attacking basket, drawing contact and fouls and finishing at the rim that it is not even close. Marvin is longer and if he is as good one on one defender as Mutang is claiming he may be better option guarding Durant, Lebron and other tall SF's, plus he is better rebounder as well. He may end up being better 3pt shooter then Hayward, so if you need zone busters you may play Mo, Foye and Marvin in backcourt. There are quite a few options with this current roster, and I think Hayward is not the best at everything from Jazz wing players.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:34 pm

dongibby wrote:


Hayward was asked to play on this summer select team so he is a lot more than a niche role player without question the NBA know's this that's why he was asked to be a part of it, he is going to be a big part of this team going forward and will get all the playing time he can handle. I really think that Burks will be getting a lot of playing time at the SG position and I think will be the starter when the season start's the Kid is that good, it is going to be hard to keep this Kid off of the court because of his play and this could take away playing time for Hayward a little. It is like you said you play your best player's and I think Burks is going to be the best player at the SG position this season, I really don't see anyone taking it away from him but maybe Foye and that is only because of his 3 pt shooting ability other than that Burks is a better all around player IMHO.

Well if Millsap plays some SF and Marvin is just a SF then Hayward will be getting more than half of his minutes at SG. Hayward was overall better than Burks last year, and I'd bet good money he'll be better than Burks this year, so if it comes down to a point where you've got Marvin or Millsap at SF for the bulk of the minutes then Hayward is going to be the one getting the time at SG while Burks and Foye pick up the scraps.

I'm telling you guys, Hayward is going to get 34+ minutes a game, he just is. He's long and athletic enough to guard pretty much any SG or SF in the NBA, he's a 5 tool player, and he's substantially better than any other wing the Jazz have, and he's only 22 years old. Whatever else happens, whether Burks explodes or Williams finally comes into his own or Millsap plays half of his time at SF so Favors and Kanter can play down low, Hayward is getting his 34+ minutes, along with Millsap (30+), Jefferson (30+), Mo Williams(33+), and Favors(30ish). Everybody else is fighting for the scraps.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:04 pm

Gordo = Sleeper on national radar, per a Mags previous post. We are not guessing about how good he is as a rookie, we are guessing about how good he will be after two years in the league as a proven talent. Seriously, Pippen-like in my book of predictions. Utility man. A little bit of everything, AK with a reliable jump shot. Seriously expensive to extend. What the hell are the Jazz going to do when all of the sudden Favors and Gordo, (we hope Burks), are all the sudden on every GM's wish list? I can totally see Kanter getting there as well. Not necessarily all-stars but damn close and every team would want them in the line-up? Don't think KOC and now Dennis haven't thought about this and gives them sleepless nights. This team needs to peak with the Core 4 new guys in two-three years, which means lots of big money contracts in order to hang on to the studs. If we were LA/BOS/MIAMI/DALLAS we would just simply buy a couple Finals appearances by surrounding these guys with the complimentary parts. But being small market Jazz, is it possible that we can get Stock-Malone close to a whiff at the trophy ever again given the player market?

And yes, Kanter is totally in this discussion of keepers and salary caps.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:14 pm

Hayward is talking about wanting to be an all-star this season and how he is working hard toward's making it happen, you have got to love this Kid for how hard he is working on making himself the best player that he can be.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/223629/Hayward_Sets_Goal_Of_Making_All_Star_Team
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:34 am

dongibby wrote:
Hayward is talking about wanting to be an all-star this season and how he is working hard toward's making it happen, you have got to love this Kid for how hard he is working on making himself the best player that he can be.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/223629/Hayward_Sets_Goal_Of_Making_All_Star_Team

Yea Gordo seems to now be adding confidence to his game, which I'd bet is the missing ingredient.
Pretty good for "horrible pick" in the lottery, and a guy that supposedly is going to be out of the league or off the Jazz after this season.....
I've been saying it since he was picked at 9th that year, that it's a great pick. He's been getting better and better, now was picked for the Olympic Select team, already showed in year 2 that he needs to be the one starting. Can't wait for year 3 for him to really settle in as a very good starter in this league. There is an "I told you so" in there for some people....
And another broken record remark, that KOC really knows and knew what he was doing. What a great find, picking him early at 9th.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:12 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
dongibby wrote:
Hayward is talking about wanting to be an all-star this season and how he is working hard toward's making it happen, you have got to love this Kid for how hard he is working on making himself the best player that he can be.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/223629/Hayward_Sets_Goal_Of_Making_All_Star_Team

Yea Gordo seems to now be adding confidence to his game, which I'd bet is the missing ingredient.
Pretty good for "horrible pick" in the lottery, and a guy that supposedly is going to be out of the league or off the Jazz after this season.....
I've been saying it since he was picked at 9th that year, that it's a great pick. He's been getting better and better, now was picked for the Olympic Select team, already showed in year 2 that he needs to be the one starting. Can't wait for year 3 for him to really settle in as a very good starter in this league. There is an "I told you so" in there for some people....
And another broken record remark, that KOC really knows and knew what he was doing. What a great find, picking him early at 9th.

I met Gordo about 4 games into his rookie season and I told him how impressed I was with his Tournament run the previous year, and asked him what the biggest challenge would be coming into the NBA. He said "I never expected to get drafted as high as I was. I have to prove to the Jazz and myself that I deserved to be picked that high" So I don't know if he had the confidence that he needed, but last year was a big step for him and I think playing on the select team might boost his confidence even more.




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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:55 am

Romoholic wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
dongibby wrote:
Hayward is talking about wanting to be an all-star this season and how he is working hard toward's making it happen, you have got to love this Kid for how hard he is working on making himself the best player that he can be.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/223629/Hayward_Sets_Goal_Of_Making_All_Star_Team

Yea Gordo seems to now be adding confidence to his game, which I'd bet is the missing ingredient.
Pretty good for "horrible pick" in the lottery, and a guy that supposedly is going to be out of the league or off the Jazz after this season.....
I've been saying it since he was picked at 9th that year, that it's a great pick. He's been getting better and better, now was picked for the Olympic Select team, already showed in year 2 that he needs to be the one starting. Can't wait for year 3 for him to really settle in as a very good starter in this league. There is an "I told you so" in there for some people....
And another broken record remark, that KOC really knows and knew what he was doing. What a great find, picking him early at 9th.

I met Gordo about 4 games into his rookie season and I told him how impressed I was with his Tournament run the previous year, and asked him what the biggest challenge would be coming into the NBA. He said "I never expected to get drafted as high as I was. I have to prove to the Jazz and myself that I deserved to be picked that high" So I don't know if he had the confidence that he needed, but last year was a big step for him and I think playing on the select team might boost his confidence even more.




Hey Romo, man, isn't Gordo only like 6'2 or so?? So that would make you...... Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:54 am

Mutangclan wrote:
Romoholic wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
dongibby wrote:
Hayward is talking about wanting to be an all-star this season and how he is working hard toward's making it happen, you have got to love this Kid for how hard he is working on making himself the best player that he can be.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/223629/Hayward_Sets_Goal_Of_Making_All_Star_Team

Yea Gordo seems to now be adding confidence to his game, which I'd bet is the missing ingredient.
Pretty good for "horrible pick" in the lottery, and a guy that supposedly is going to be out of the league or off the Jazz after this season.....
I've been saying it since he was picked at 9th that year, that it's a great pick. He's been getting better and better, now was picked for the Olympic Select team, already showed in year 2 that he needs to be the one starting. Can't wait for year 3 for him to really settle in as a very good starter in this league. There is an "I told you so" in there for some people....
And another broken record remark, that KOC really knows and knew what he was doing. What a great find, picking him early at 9th.

I met Gordo about 4 games into his rookie season and I told him how impressed I was with his Tournament run the previous year, and asked him what the biggest challenge would be coming into the NBA. He said "I never expected to get drafted as high as I was. I have to prove to the Jazz and myself that I deserved to be picked that high" So I don't know if he had the confidence that he needed, but last year was a big step for him and I think playing on the select team might boost his confidence even more.




Hey Romo, man, isn't Gordo only like 6'2 or so?? So that would make you...... Wink

HAHAHA that's funny

Hayward is something like 6'9 if I remember correctly so Romo is not as short as it looks. LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:57 am

dongibby wrote:


HAHAHA that's funny

Hayward is something like 6'9 if I remember correctly so Romo is not as short as it looks. LOL

Yea my stud-man Gordo is at least 6'7, so just giving you sh.. Romo......I'm sure you have a massive vert anyway afro
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:29 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
dongibby wrote:


HAHAHA that's funny

Hayward is something like 6'9 if I remember correctly so Romo is not as short as it looks. LOL

Yea my stud-man Gordo is at least 6'7, so just giving you sh.. Romo......I'm sure you have a massive vert anyway afro

5'8 dicks Laughing

I actually could dunk before I got old and fat. When I played in highschool My nickname was white spud web! Now I'm lucky if I can hit the bottom of the net. I can still shoot lights out though Basketball

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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:57 pm

Romoholic wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
dongibby wrote:


HAHAHA that's funny

Hayward is something like 6'9 if I remember correctly so Romo is not as short as it looks. LOL

Yea my stud-man Gordo is at least 6'7, so just giving you sh.. Romo......I'm sure you have a massive vert anyway afro

5'8 dicks Laughing

I actually could dunk before I got old and fat. When I played in highschool My nickname was white spud web! Now I'm lucky if I can hit the bottom of the net. I can still shoot lights out though Basketball

AAAhhhhhhhhhahahahahahahaahha, 'dicks". Lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:46 pm

Hollingers take on Hayward...

Quote :

GORDON HAYWARD, SG
Hollinger's 2012-13 Projections
PTS REB AST PER
16.8 4.5 4.3 15.9
Stats are per 40 minutes | Hollinger player card

Scouting report
+ Big, athletic wing who can attack rim and finish. Draws lots of fouls.
+ Average shooter and ball handler but a good passer. Left hand needs work.
+ Suspect defender, especially at the 2, but also needs work on post defense.

Analysis
After a rocky rookie season, Hayward was one of the league's most improved players in 2011-12 and seems poised to be a long-term solution on the wings for Utah. The one caveat is that he still seems to be much better suited to small forward than shooting guard, where he played most of his minutes a season ago and likely will again this season.

Hayward is just passable as a ball handler and still has a maddening habit of picking up his dribble after not going anyplace in particular. When he plays more aggressively he's very good, especially going to the basket -- he ranked fifth among shooting guards in free throw rate and made 83.2 percent, plus he shot 64.9 percent at the rim. From outside, however, he's barely adequate, making 39.4 percent of his long 2s and 34.6 percent of his 3s. Since he's only 22 and his form is solid, one suspects these numbers will improve.

Hayward also sees the floor well, ranking sixth among shooting guards in assist ratio, but what needs more work is the subtle stuff. He needs a better left hand, for instance, and he needs to develop some one-handed finishes -- Hayward always goes up with two hands on the ball, which tends to leave him putting the ball in harm's way and relying entirely on outjumping the defender.

It's a similar story defensively. Hayward is big and can jump -- he was seventh among shooting guards in blocks per minute -- but his overall defense needs considerable work. Synergy rated him the 10th-worst defender in the league with at least 200 plays defended, and while that's probably an exaggeration, the Jazz did defend better when he was off the court. Again, it would help if he could play the 3 rather than chase quicker 2s around, but even at the 3 he needs work on his post defense.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/2012-13-uth-preview/utah-jazz-player-profiles

Locke pointed out similar concerns with Hayward's D at the end of the season, noting that he's almost universally lauded as being a good defender for his age by fans, opposing players, and coaches, but according to the Synergy defensive numbers he's just horrible. Maybe Alive can weigh in and set us straight on another "wisdom-of-crowds" vs. "numbers-as-proof" argument, because I'm not sure what to think about it. Just watching the games I thought he was a very solid on the ball defender that struggled some with rotations and being in the right place at the right time but made up for it with hustle, but the numbers don't corroborate that.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:03 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
Hollingers take on Hayward...

Quote :

GORDON HAYWARD, SG
Hollinger's 2012-13 Projections
PTS REB AST PER
16.8 4.5 4.3 15.9
Stats are per 40 minutes | Hollinger player card

Scouting report
+ Big, athletic wing who can attack rim and finish. Draws lots of fouls.
+ Average shooter and ball handler but a good passer. Left hand needs work.
+ Suspect defender, especially at the 2, but also needs work on post defense.

Analysis
After a rocky rookie season, Hayward was one of the league's most improved players in 2011-12 and seems poised to be a long-term solution on the wings for Utah. The one caveat is that he still seems to be much better suited to small forward than shooting guard, where he played most of his minutes a season ago and likely will again this season.

Hayward is just passable as a ball handler and still has a maddening habit of picking up his dribble after not going anyplace in particular. When he plays more aggressively he's very good, especially going to the basket -- he ranked fifth among shooting guards in free throw rate and made 83.2 percent, plus he shot 64.9 percent at the rim. From outside, however, he's barely adequate, making 39.4 percent of his long 2s and 34.6 percent of his 3s. Since he's only 22 and his form is solid, one suspects these numbers will improve.

Hayward also sees the floor well, ranking sixth among shooting guards in assist ratio, but what needs more work is the subtle stuff. He needs a better left hand, for instance, and he needs to develop some one-handed finishes -- Hayward always goes up with two hands on the ball, which tends to leave him putting the ball in harm's way and relying entirely on outjumping the defender.

It's a similar story defensively. Hayward is big and can jump -- he was seventh among shooting guards in blocks per minute -- but his overall defense needs considerable work. Synergy rated him the 10th-worst defender in the league with at least 200 plays defended, and while that's probably an exaggeration, the Jazz did defend better when he was off the court. Again, it would help if he could play the 3 rather than chase quicker 2s around, but even at the 3 he needs work on his post defense.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/2012-13-uth-preview/utah-jazz-player-profiles

Locke pointed out similar concerns with Hayward's D at the end of the season, noting that he's almost universally lauded as being a good defender for his age by fans, opposing players, and coaches, but according to the Synergy defensive numbers he's just horrible. Maybe Alive can weigh in and set us straight on another "wisdom-of-crowds" vs. "numbers-as-proof" argument, because I'm not sure what to think about it. Just watching the games I thought he was a very solid on the ball defender that struggled some with rotations and being in the right place at the right time but made up for it with hustle, but the numbers don't corroborate that.

I don't buy into the stats that Locke always throws around. It's like he is too lazy to analyze the game so he uses nerd power to do it for him. Stats almost NEVER tell the whole story. I know from seeing with my own eyes that GH usually has to defend the most athletic guy on the opposing team and usually does a good job with it. He can get beat off the dribble occasional, but makes up for it with his length. He pisses guys off because he makes them work so hard on offense. Locke is a hack anyway, and his mail order bride is ugly Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:28 pm

Romoholic wrote:


I don't buy into the stats that Locke always throws around. It's like he is too lazy to analyze the game so he uses nerd power to do it for him. Stats almost NEVER tell the whole story. I know from seeing with my own eyes that GH usually has to defend the most athletic guy on the opposing team and usually does a good job with it. He can get beat off the dribble occasional, but makes up for it with his length. He pisses guys off because he makes them work so hard on offense. Locke is a hack anyway, and his mail order bride is ugly Wink

Ya, I think Locke an Hollinger have similar approaches to analyzing the game, and they can get a little lazy when it comes to questioning numbers that don't meet the eye test.

Still, the numbers pretty overwhelmingly show that Hayward didn't have a positive overall influence defensively, meaning that defensively he wasn't any better for the Jazz defensively than his replacements, who in this case were CJ Miles, and Josh Howard, so I think there is something to this. I think Hayward probably wastes a lot of motion, and as a young player needs to learn how to better position himself and counter his opponents. I think he can and probably will be a great defender, and that now he's good in a lot of situations, but he just needs some experience before he can really be solid all around.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:55 pm

I do believe in advanced stats to a degree. Romos analysis of Hayward usually playing the oppositions best has merit IMO. I think having quick feet matters on defense- especially at the 2. His IQ and length and work ethic should help. I do sometimes wonder if SF is a better fit for him. If Burks gets going I can see him as a SF exclusively. It's just nice he's well-rounded with size - which makes him versatile. Kinda like a smaller Odom but plays SF/SG not PF/SF
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:43 pm

TheMagnus wrote:

Still, the numbers pretty overwhelmingly show that Hayward didn't have a positive overall influence defensively, meaning that defensively he wasn't any better for the Jazz defensively than his replacements, who in this case were CJ Miles, and Josh Howard, so I think there is something to this. I think Hayward probably wastes a lot of motion, and as a young player needs to learn how to better position himself and counter his opponents. I think he can and probably will be a great defender, and that now he's good in a lot of situations, but he just needs some experience before he can really be solid all around.

Yea but remember all those statistics recently that said that CJ MILES was our best defender?????? We know that is not the case....
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:32 pm

aliveandkickin wrote:
I do believe in advanced stats to a degree. Romos analysis of Hayward usually playing the oppositions best has merit IMO. I think having quick feet matters on defense- especially at the 2. His IQ and length and work ethic should help. I do sometimes wonder if SF is a better fit for him. If Burks gets going I can see him as a SF exclusively. It's just nice he's well-rounded with size - which makes him versatile. Kinda like a smaller Odom but plays SF/SG not PF/SF

I've been preaching for a long time that GH is a SF/SG, in that order. With his floor vision he also fills the role of a PG/SF/SG. I'm not buying the analysis that his handle is only adequate, it is above average already. Nothing but blue sky for GH this year.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:06 pm

MTJazz wrote:
aliveandkickin wrote:
I do believe in advanced stats to a degree. Romos analysis of Hayward usually playing the oppositions best has merit IMO. I think having quick feet matters on defense- especially at the 2. His IQ and length and work ethic should help. I do sometimes wonder if SF is a better fit for him. If Burks gets going I can see him as a SF exclusively. It's just nice he's well-rounded with size - which makes him versatile. Kinda like a smaller Odom but plays SF/SG not PF/SF

I've been preaching for a long time that GH is a SF/SG, in that order. With his floor vision he also fills the role of a PG/SF/SG. I'm not buying the analysis that his handle is only adequate, it is above average already. Nothing but blue sky for GH this year.

Well, but Hayward was our starting 3 all last year whether it was Raja, or I guess CJ starting(?). It was when he was able to switch over to the 2 that I think he really played his best.
For me, I've been preaching just as long that he is or should be our starting SG/SF in that order. His length, quickness, but also really good size and strength and with a superb handle and excellent floor vision, he should play the 2 guard. Joe Dumars in a Scottie Pippen frame. GH has only played 2 years, and this 3rd year is going to be his best yet. Going to be awesome, and I'm glad he'll be able to start at the 2 this year whether Paul or Marv play the 3, and GH plays the majority of his time there at the 2 where he can soar.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:30 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
aliveandkickin wrote:
I do believe in advanced stats to a degree. Romos analysis of Hayward usually playing the oppositions best has merit IMO. I think having quick feet matters on defense- especially at the 2. His IQ and length and work ethic should help. I do sometimes wonder if SF is a better fit for him. If Burks gets going I can see him as a SF exclusively. It's just nice he's well-rounded with size - which makes him versatile. Kinda like a smaller Odom but plays SF/SG not PF/SF

I've been preaching for a long time that GH is a SF/SG, in that order. With his floor vision he also fills the role of a PG/SF/SG. I'm not buying the analysis that his handle is only adequate, it is above average already. Nothing but blue sky for GH this year.

Well, but Hayward was our starting 3 all last year whether it was Raja, or I guess CJ starting(?). It was when he was able to switch over to the 2 that I think he really played his best.
For me, I've been preaching just as long that he is or should be our starting SG/SF in that order. His length, quickness, but also really good size and strength and with a superb handle and excellent floor vision, he should play the 2 guard. Joe Dumars in a Scottie Pippen frame. GH has only played 2 years, and this 3rd year is going to be his best yet. Going to be awesome, and I'm glad he'll be able to start at the 2 this year whether Paul or Marv play the 3, and GH plays the majority of his time there at the 2 where he can soar.

Lets agree that he is at least a utility-wing. I have a fantasy that Burks can earn the start at the 2 and under the precept that you start your five best guys GH has to play 3 until he needs to play 2, say when Marvin checks in. Unless GH's long-range dialing gets a little better I still think he is better off at the 3.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:39 pm

MTJazz wrote:

Lets agree that he is at least a utility-wing. I have a fantasy that Burks can earn the start at the 2 and under the precept that you start your five best guys GH has to play 3 until he needs to play 2, say when Marvin checks in. Unless GH's long-range dialing gets a little better I still think he is better off at the 3.

Oh yea, kid is versatile no doubt. And I think I'm looking at Burks the same way I'm looking at Paul Millsap. Both are huge HUGE studs that could just as easily start, but instead are getting starter type minutes off the bench. Starting is only a title on this team, with those two monsters waiting to get on the court. Best bench in the NBA.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:01 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
MTJazz wrote:

Lets agree that he is at least a utility-wing. I have a fantasy that Burks can earn the start at the 2 and under the precept that you start your five best guys GH has to play 3 until he needs to play 2, say when Marvin checks in. Unless GH's long-range dialing gets a little better I still think he is better off at the 3.

Oh yea, kid is versatile no doubt. And I think I'm looking at Burks the same way I'm looking at Paul Millsap. Both are huge HUGE studs that could just as easily start, but instead are getting starter type minutes off the bench. Starting is only a title on this team, with those two monsters waiting to get on the court. Best bench in the NBA.

Burks could end up being the steal of that draft. I love Gordo, but I think Burks has a higher ceiling. JMO

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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:27 pm

Romoholic wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
MTJazz wrote:

Lets agree that he is at least a utility-wing. I have a fantasy that Burks can earn the start at the 2 and under the precept that you start your five best guys GH has to play 3 until he needs to play 2, say when Marvin checks in. Unless GH's long-range dialing gets a little better I still think he is better off at the 3.

Oh yea, kid is versatile no doubt. And I think I'm looking at Burks the same way I'm looking at Paul Millsap. Both are huge HUGE studs that could just as easily start, but instead are getting starter type minutes off the bench. Starting is only a title on this team, with those two monsters waiting to get on the court. Best bench in the NBA.

Burks could end up being the steal of that draft. I love Gordo, but I think Burks has a higher ceiling. JMO


Agreed. Higher ceiling, but also more potential to not be good as well. Gordan has proven NBA skills, while Burks has only shown flashes.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:30 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
Romoholic wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
MTJazz wrote:

Lets agree that he is at least a utility-wing. I have a fantasy that Burks can earn the start at the 2 and under the precept that you start your five best guys GH has to play 3 until he needs to play 2, say when Marvin checks in. Unless GH's long-range dialing gets a little better I still think he is better off at the 3.

Oh yea, kid is versatile no doubt. And I think I'm looking at Burks the same way I'm looking at Paul Millsap. Both are huge HUGE studs that could just as easily start, but instead are getting starter type minutes off the bench. Starting is only a title on this team, with those two monsters waiting to get on the court. Best bench in the NBA.

Burks could end up being the steal of that draft. I love Gordo, but I think Burks has a higher ceiling. JMO


Agreed. Higher ceiling, but also more potential to not be good as well. Gordan has proven NBA skills, while Burks has only shown flashes.

That's true. Gordo has already proven to be reliable NBA player, Burks hasn't yet

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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:08 am

TheMagnus wrote:
Romoholic wrote:


I don't buy into the stats that Locke always throws around. It's like he is too lazy to analyze the game so he uses nerd power to do it for him. Stats almost NEVER tell the whole story. I know from seeing with my own eyes that GH usually has to defend the most athletic guy on the opposing team and usually does a good job with it. He can get beat off the dribble occasional, but makes up for it with his length. He pisses guys off because he makes them work so hard on offense. Locke is a hack anyway, and his mail order bride is ugly Wink

Ya, I think Locke an Hollinger have similar approaches to analyzing the game, and they can get a little lazy when it comes to questioning numbers that don't meet the eye test.

Still, the numbers pretty overwhelmingly show that Hayward didn't have a positive overall influence defensively, meaning that defensively he wasn't any better for the Jazz defensively than his replacements, who in this case were CJ Miles, and Josh Howard, so I think there is something to this. I think Hayward probably wastes a lot of motion, and as a young player needs to learn how to better position himself and counter his opponents. I think he can and probably will be a great defender, and that now he's good in a lot of situations, but he just needs some experience before he can really be solid all around.

Gotta give some props to Locke, and eat a little crow, after we blasted him for being lazy and relying on stats too much he went back and did a full breakdown of the Synergy stats that show Hayward as a sub par defender.

http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/2012/09/27/insider-question-15-of-20-questions-to-jazz-camp-is-gordon-hayward-as-poor-a-defender-as-synergy-says/

It's definitely worth a read, but he sums it up pretty well right at the end...


David Locke wrote:

After watching a few hours of film I have three takeaways to Gordon Hayward’s defense. First and most importantly, he battles on every play, I didn’t see a single play where I thought he didn’t give all the effort needed on that possession. Second, he is a good defender who at times is a very good defender. Lastly, his only deficiency that was really noticeable is on the pick and roll against a smaller player he has a hard time getting off the pick and getting back to the quicker guard. If I had 5 players on the floor who defended like Gordon I would have a top 10 defensive team in the NBA.

The most important take-away I have from this article is Synergy Sports is a horrendous way to evaluate an individual defender’s overall performance. Defense is a team concept and this by definition isolates everything to a single individual and that is a fool hearty attempt. Synergy has great value and is a wonderful tool, however this is not where its value lies.

http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/2012/09/27/insider-question-15-of-20-questions-to-jazz-camp-is-gordon-hayward-as-poor-a-defender-as-synergy-says/

I will say that I still think my original assessment is accurate. Locke touches on Haywards help defense and the Jazz schemes, and while I agree that he was all too often helping teamates who were sucking ass deffensively, I think that is an area that he really needs to work on to be a good team defender. Knowing how much to help and when is one of the tougher things to learn, it takes time, and as Locke said it's a team effort. But I think as he gets the hang of it and keeps his effort up he will soon be recognized as one of the elite wing defenders in the NBA.
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