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 Gordon's watch

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Mutangclan
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:32 am

Just watching games and not looking at stats, Gordo instantly came across as a good defender. Not losing his man, bodying up, active hands, minimal fouling, boxing out, energy energy and energy, effort and not giving up on a play. Those are what showed up early for him, and was the biggest reason I instantly liked him. He's getting better too. My opinion, he's already a very good defender, and he's going to end up being a great defender.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:45 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
Romoholic wrote:


I don't buy into the stats that Locke always throws around. It's like he is too lazy to analyze the game so he uses nerd power to do it for him. Stats almost NEVER tell the whole story. I know from seeing with my own eyes that GH usually has to defend the most athletic guy on the opposing team and usually does a good job with it. He can get beat off the dribble occasional, but makes up for it with his length. He pisses guys off because he makes them work so hard on offense. Locke is a hack anyway, and his mail order bride is ugly Wink

Ya, I think Locke an Hollinger have similar approaches to analyzing the game, and they can get a little lazy when it comes to questioning numbers that don't meet the eye test.

Still, the numbers pretty overwhelmingly show that Hayward didn't have a positive overall influence defensively, meaning that defensively he wasn't any better for the Jazz defensively than his replacements, who in this case were CJ Miles, and Josh Howard, so I think there is something to this. I think Hayward probably wastes a lot of motion, and as a young player needs to learn how to better position himself and counter his opponents. I think he can and probably will be a great defender, and that now he's good in a lot of situations, but he just needs some experience before he can really be solid all around.

Gotta give some props to Locke, and eat a little crow, after we blasted him for being lazy and relying on stats too much he went back and did a full breakdown of the Synergy stats that show Hayward as a sub par defender.

http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/2012/09/27/insider-question-15-of-20-questions-to-jazz-camp-is-gordon-hayward-as-poor-a-defender-as-synergy-says/

It's definitely worth a read, but he sums it up pretty well right at the end...


David Locke wrote:

After watching a few hours of film I have three takeaways to Gordon Hayward’s defense. First and most importantly, he battles on every play, I didn’t see a single play where I thought he didn’t give all the effort needed on that possession. Second, he is a good defender who at times is a very good defender. Lastly, his only deficiency that was really noticeable is on the pick and roll against a smaller player he has a hard time getting off the pick and getting back to the quicker guard. If I had 5 players on the floor who defended like Gordon I would have a top 10 defensive team in the NBA.

The most important take-away I have from this article is Synergy Sports is a horrendous way to evaluate an individual defender’s overall performance. Defense is a team concept and this by definition isolates everything to a single individual and that is a fool hearty attempt. Synergy has great value and is a wonderful tool, however this is not where its value lies.

http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/2012/09/27/insider-question-15-of-20-questions-to-jazz-camp-is-gordon-hayward-as-poor-a-defender-as-synergy-says/

I will say that I still think my original assessment is accurate. Locke touches on Haywards help defense and the Jazz schemes, and while I agree that he was all too often helping teamates who were sucking ass deffensively, I think that is an area that he really needs to work on to be a good team defender. Knowing how much to help and when is one of the tougher things to learn, it takes time, and as Locke said it's a team effort. But I think as he gets the hang of it and keeps his effort up he will soon be recognized as one of the elite wing defenders in the NBA.

I read Lockes breakdown as well. Synergy is flawed as far as team defense when a player leaves his man to stop penetration then the ball gets kicked out to the guy that was left open. If the open guy hits his shot, Synergys system makes it look like the guy that help stop penetration and left his man open is a bad defender because the error goes to the guy that was supposed to be guarding the open guy.
This is where advanced stats are whacked. In my earlier post I said Hayward doesn't have as quick feet but his size helps him along with his work ethic. Haywards stats according to Synergy backs up the fact on pick and rolls he has a tougher time being bigger getting around screens.
Locke also pointed out in isolations Hayward held his own against most of the elite players except for a few.
So according to Locke and Synergys flawed system, Hayward gets the job done except against a sg like Manu when Duncan sets a pick on Hayward- freeing up Manu for a shot or penetration.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:12 am

Well, the Gordon Watch has kind of fallen off the map here. And after last night's game, I kind of understand why.

See, those of us who had really high hopes for Gordo expected to see the shooting corrected, and multi-category contributions from the kid. Rebounding, good defense (and some block/steal stats to back it up) and tons of assists (for a wing). Instead, he's moving in the direction of last night's game:

5-8, 2-2 on threes, 3-3 from the line, 15pts in 26 minutes AND...ONE rebound. Nothing else. No assists, no steals, no blocks. And the ONE (!) rebound. Oh, and 3 turnovers. That's been a growth area.

Ugh. Not the direction of development I'd hoped for. Shooting has been real inconsistent, but scoring has been his best contribution. Approximately a 1:1 asst/TO ratio. Rebounding going from "needs improvement" to "nonexistent"...basically, his rebounding numbers are consistent with how many balls will fall into your hands if you're playing his minutes. Steals/blocks?? Not increasing.

Not a hater. I'm the one who was calling for his development into a "Ginobili-lite" kind of player.

*sigh*

BTW, the Paul George argument can stop now.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:06 pm

- My eyes told me Hayward was already an above average and very respectable one on one defender in his first season, to the point that he earned some refs respect almost right off the bat.
- My eyes tells me Hayward is trying to incorporate advance team defense to his game, but in the process his one on one defense have been suffering a little bit, the same way a golfer suffers when he first try to change his swing
- Basketball intuition continues to say me Wheeler will be a highly dependable and fairly complete NBA wing player probably around his 27th or 28th birthday, when his lack of thouhgness, grit, swagger, will be overshadowed by maturity

Of course I have no stat to show... believe it or not, there's no stat for some big things of life... or sports...
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:38 pm

outerspacefan wrote:
- My eyes told me Hayward was already an above average and very respectable one on one defender in his first season, to the point that he earned some refs respect almost right off the bat.
- My eyes tells me Hayward is trying to incorporate advance team defense to his game, but in the process his one on one defense have been suffering a little bit, the same way a golfer suffers when he first try to change his swing
- Basketball intuition continues to say me Wheeler will be a highly dependable and fairly complete NBA wing player probably around his 27th or 28th birthday, when his lack of thouhgness, grit, swagger, will be overshadowed by maturity

Of course I have no stat to show... believe it or not, there's no stat for some big things of life... or sports...

I like this, nothing wrong with your eyes.

that being said....
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:33 pm

Gordos D was key in win. That hand with a few seconds to go was huge just ask Affialo, What a Face Not to sure this kid will be out of the league like Skiier said. Or was it CJ? wrong again!
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:38 pm

Trollificus wrote:
Well, the Gordon Watch has kind of fallen off the map here. And after last night's game, I kind of understand why.

See, those of us who had really high hopes for Gordo expected to see the shooting corrected, and multi-category contributions from the kid. Rebounding, good defense (and some block/steal stats to back it up) and tons of assists (for a wing). Instead, he's moving in the direction of last night's game:

5-8, 2-2 on threes, 3-3 from the line, 15pts in 26 minutes AND...ONE rebound. Nothing else. No assists, no steals, no blocks. And the ONE (!) rebound. Oh, and 3 turnovers. That's been a growth area.

Ugh. Not the direction of development I'd hoped for. Shooting has been real inconsistent, but scoring has been his best contribution. Approximately a 1:1 asst/TO ratio. Rebounding going from "needs improvement" to "nonexistent"...basically, his rebounding numbers are consistent with how many balls will fall into your hands if you're playing his minutes. Steals/blocks?? Not increasing.

Not a hater. I'm the one who was calling for his development into a "Ginobili-lite" kind of player.

*sigh*

BTW, the Paul George argument can stop now.

Lets see, my wife taught me what to do here....

Trollificus, I know you are in this whole "the Jazz suck at everything and everything about the Jazz sucks" doledrums and all you really want is somebody do share your frustration and let you vent, sorry you're not getting that around here, things really do suck for Jazz fans right now, and it's not because we don't care about you troll, we love you, we really do.


...how was that? Glad it's over, now on to what I really want to say here.

Frankly I'm a bit surprised at why so many Jazz fans are frustrated with Hayward right now. I mean, after all of the years spend bitching about not having a decent SG that could score and defend Hayward is developing into everything they hoped for all those years and now they are bitching because he's not fricking Paul George or Manu Ginobili.

I was like you, I thought he would develop into a more balanced performer, but instead he has turned into an almost prototypical scoring shooting guard. But is that a bad thing?

I mean, after tonight Hayward is scoring more points per minute played than any player on the Jazz, more than Jefferson, more than Millsap, more than Mo. He's scoring more points in less minutes than he did last year, he's being WAY more aggressive, he has the second highest usage rate on the team (behind Jefferson), and he's managed to do all of that without losing any efficiency, which is a HUGE deal.

And here's the hard truth about defensive numbers, they really don't change much as players develop. Rebounds, Steals, Blocks, they usually stay basically flat on a per minute basis, and often actually decline, young players just get more per game as they play more. That is especially true for Hayward. Every year in the league he has had 4 rebounds, 1 steal, and almost a block per 36 minutes, and that is probably not going to change. So I'd say if that isn't what you were expecting then you were probably being unrealistic, and I say that knowing that my own expectations in this regard were a little unrealistic.

I also personally expected him to develop into more of a facilitator, Calg and I had an argument about it and that is the way I thought he would go while Calg said no way, he was right. But I am seriously impressed with Hayward's development as a scorer, in terms of his ability to score the basketball and do it efficiently he has actually met my highest expectations. Over the last 12 games he's shooting 45/47/89 and averaging 13 points in 24 minutes a game, and only Millsap and Jefferson have scored more points in those games. He's also finished most of those games on the court and played very well on both ends in the 4th quarter.

So I guess my point is that just because he isn't meeting all of our expectations, that doesn't mean he isn't making progress as a player. At 22 he's already turned into a legit 2nd or 3rd scoring option or, as we are seeing now, 6th man scorer off the bench. In fact, if you want a comparison for Hayward, it's not Ginobili you should be looking at, Kevin Martin is probably the guy that comes closest to fitting the bill at this point, and if he can continue that trajectory I can't imagine being disappointed.



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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Gordon Hayward increased his assists, steals and blocked shots by an infinite amount from the Miami game to the Orlando game (from zero to one). I don't know what else you people want.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:54 pm

I'm not disappointed in Hayward at all. I've loved him since the beginning, and knew he'd be a good player for us. He certainly wasnt a wasted pick, or the wrong pick (20/20 is mythical folks) and KOC should be hailed as a genius especially for all the guys he past up to take Gordo, that turned out blah. Sure, Paul George is great, and thats what you had to decide. But Paul George played against lesser competition during college and at the time, that was a huge deal **see Fredette, Jimmer**.
He's gotten better every year, even though he's gone in and out of the starting lineup. He can do it all now 3's, ast, defense, FT, blks.......I mean come on, a do it all utility player??? I'll take it.
I said it all last year, and I stand by it now: he's going to be comparable to Scottie Pippen.

He is still, STILL only 22, which means he's got 10 good years in front of him. Patience folks, he's a really good player and is still improving. The kid is competing with the best, and getting his.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:42 pm

Thanks, guys, I kinda needed that. I really love Gordo, but that leads to unrealistic expectations.(hmmm...I was always that way with women, too. Not a good thing.)

So I was feeling better about him, but after tonight's game I just wish he was on a better team. Ugh.

This was so bad it's not even fun to go overboard with the criticism or overreaction. This was actually a bit concerning, I thought. I mean, "Christmas Hangover" is kind of a desperate explanation, isn't it?

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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:16 pm

....

This thread is a riot, especially given where Hayward is at right now...


On the season... 14.4 pts, 3.1 reb, 2.9 ast, .8 stl, .6 blk, 1.7 TO, in 29.2 minutes on 44/41/82 shooting with a PER of 17.0.

For the season both Calg and I came pretty close here but give the advantage to calg for being closer on REB and AST...

TheMagnus wrote:

Magnus = 14 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast and he'll shoot 47/38/85

Calg = 13pts, 4reb, 3.3 ast 47/35/83


Worth noting the Post All-Star Break numbers... 16.5 pts, 3.5 reb, 3.8 ast, .9 stl, .5 blk, 1.4 TO, in 33.8 minutes on 45/44/83 shooting.

That's pretty close to what Mutang predicted...

Mutangclan wrote:
Well, I almost feel a bit sheepish after my crushing victory over CC....butttttt........
Its too tough right now to pick what he'll do. If the same team returns however, with all those rebounding monsters, I'll say next year my good studly buddy Gordo goes for 17.3pts, 4.4. rebounds, 4.4 assists, 0.9blks, 0.8stls, 48%FG, 86%FT and he'll hit 41% on 3's. (see, you have to use decimal points or if you just say 17pts per, and Gordon goes 17.3, then Objective Experts will call you a failure.)

Be interesting to re-visit this once we have a set team for opening the season.


Those post all star break numbers are great, Hollingers numbers on ESPN have him listed as a Shooting guard and his season numbers are good enough to make him top 10 in the NBA at that position, a whole season of 16/3.5/3.5 on 45/40/85 shooting would make him a top 10 NBA wing.


Oh, and for those who were getting all depressed by the Paul George comparisons, thinking Haward could never be that good...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=haywago01&y1=2013&p2=georgpa01&y2=2013

All he needs is minutes.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:11 pm

Thanks, Mags. And thanks Gordo for playing some terrific basketball.

ALSO, something I have noted recently, that Gordo has incorporated into his defense, is the brilliant "Early Foul" move.

Watch him close. At least once per game he'll be out of position to contest a shot and he'll sneak a hand in low WHILE THE OPPONENT IS STARTING TO BRING THE BALL UP! It never gets called and when the guy starts his shot, he's not arranged properly. You'll see Heywards' man miss some shots really badly and on replay, you'll see he got his hand in to disrupt the rhythm of the shot. It's smart, smart defense.

Love that kid like Dreamlander loves Turkish players.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:25 pm

Trollificus wrote:
Love that kid like Dreamlander loves Turkish players.
Now that's a lot of love.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:17 am

TheMagnus wrote:
....

This thread is a riot, especially given where Hayward is at right now...


On the season... 14.4 pts, 3.1 reb, 2.9 ast, .8 stl, .6 blk, 1.7 TO, in 29.2 minutes on 44/41/82 shooting with a PER of 17.0.

Worth noting the Post All-Star Break numbers... 16.5 pts, 3.5 reb, 3.8 ast, .9 stl, .5 blk, 1.4 TO, in 33.8 minutes on 45/44/83 shooting.

That's pretty close to what Mutang predicted...

Hey, I'm elated he's on our team, I dont care what he averages. The guy is a tremendous talent and dont forget, he's going to be even better than he already is. I believed in him since the word GO when he was showing a real sense of the game, and intelligence on the court, and all around ability. KOC can draft some players man. This team is looking great with KOC's last three draft picks, Burks/Gordo/Kanter. I look forward to what he and Lindsey are going to pull off this offseason.

Has to be an A+ for KOC, aye Calgary?
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Good stuff about GH & the need for him to be a leader.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/56189385-87/hayward-gordon-jazz-role.html.csp?page=1

He knows now — because coaches and team executives have told him — his role on the Jazz will change moving forward. It has to change

"I look forward to it," he said.

"[Gordon] is ready to take a bigger role," said general manager Dennis Lindsey. "There are a lot of big requirements by us to start setting [high] standards — what we’re going to stand for, what our culture will be. He’s a very good person to lead those efforts."

"I need to evolve next year, take a lot bigger role," Hayward said.

I’ve never been an extremely vocal person. But when the time is right, there are definitely things to be said. … I’m looking forward to the challenge, stepping up to more of a leadership role."



This isn't the first thing that I've read with guys from the F.O. talking about this being Gordon's team now. So I wonder, if this is "GH's team" now, then is that the writing on the wall about the futures of the vets on the team that assumed that role this past season?
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:10 am

I have my doubts that GH is leadership material but one can hope. Just because a person is a nice person and skilled baller does not make one a court and team leader. Leadership is an innate thing. If his upward trajectory continues though, he starts taking over games and hitting game winners, he may be able to assume some leadership by that alone. Honestly though, as I look at the composition of the current team going forward, leadership is seriously lacking and short of bringing in an established FA leader suspect that the team will have to constitute around the concept of team harmony and leadership. The Jazz have been effectively leaderless since Dwill went sour.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:29 am

Mutangclan wrote:
Has to be an A+ for KOC, aye Calgary?

Come on, A+? P.George is playing for Indiana isn't he?
I would give B now after sreaming for his head during draft night.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:41 pm

Calgary Jazz wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
Has to be an A+ for KOC, aye Calgary?

Come on, A+? P.George is playing for Indiana isn't he?
I would give B now after sreaming for his head during draft night.

You wanted Ed Davis Calgary.....

Secondly, everyone else passed on George too Calgary, it doesn't mean that 9 GM's are crap. If this draft is re-done now, Gordo would be picked 6th and maybe 5th. Shoot, depending on how you look at DMC and Fav, Gordo could be 4th.
KOC reached for him then, and obviously knew what he was doing. Thats an A+ in anyone's book. Give it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:14 pm

Of course dudes passed on PGeorge, but reality is when Jazz clock started to tick they decided to pick a wing, and between Hayward and George they picked Gordon... and I don't remember fans having fun with that pick...

Reality says if the same draft would take place right now, George would certainly be taken well ahead of Gordon. I know it's easier with monday newspaper at hand, but the decision was made the same way the decision to take Koufos over Ibaka was made...

IMHO Calg has valid point. Have KOC taken George then, now George would be asked to take the leadership, not Hayward, whose character, thoughness, leadership capabilities have always been a big question mark (I can assure you no one will respect a leader that peacefully take a finger in his year...)

I'm deeply concerned about Wheeler's leadership abilities... but I'm more concerned about Jazz brass asking him to be the leader...

Next season will be a nightmare, but I expect it to be a funny nightmare that lead the Jazz to a really high pick in 2014...
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:14 pm

outerspacefan wrote:
Of course dudes passed on PGeorge, but reality is when Jazz clock started to tick they decided to pick a wing, and between Hayward and George they picked Gordon... and I don't remember fans having fun with that pick...

Reality says if the same draft would take place right now, George would certainly be taken well ahead of Gordon. I know it's easier with monday newspaper at hand, but the decision was made the same way the decision to take Koufos over Ibaka was made...

IMHO Calg has valid point. Have KOC taken George then, now George would be asked to take the leadership, not Hayward, whose character, thoughness, leadership capabilities have always been a big question mark (I can assure you no one will respect a leader that peacefully take a finger in his year...)

I'm deeply concerned about Wheeler's leadership abilities... but I'm more concerned about Jazz brass asking him to be the leader...

Next season will be a nightmare, but I expect it to be a funny nightmare that lead the Jazz to a really high pick in 2014...

I think you underestimate Hayward's ability to lead. Everybody has a different style. He was the unquestioned leader of a Butler team that massively over-achieved it's way the national championship game. This year he started to assert himself much more, but was clearly still deferring to veteran leaders.

As I recall Hayward wasn't really even on the radar prior to the draft untill very late in the game when he started rising up draft boards due to some impressive workouts. I recall having debates about whether to pick Luke Babbit, Cole Aldrich, or Xavier Henry. Paul George was in the conversation but not one of the more popular options, Hayward rarely if ever entered the conversation. That is why people like Calg were cursing KOC, they thought it was a massive reach, and given Clags devotion to DraftExpress and Mu's constant reminders that he wanted Ed Davis any affinity he claims for Paul George is little more than a projected attempt at revisionist history...

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2010/

Hayward actually ranked ahead of George there, and the two were hardly consensus top 10 picks, so credit both Utah and Indiana for taking them appropriately high over other more hyped players like Luke Babbit and Cole Aldrich.

Oh, and did I mention this before?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=georgpa01&y1=2013&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

I think I might have, but it bears repeating.


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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:23 pm

I'm not trying to knock George, he's a good up-and-coming player & a very good rebounder from the SF spot.... but he shot only 41.8% from the field, and per game he turned the ball over almost twice as much as Gordon. It's not like the guy was All-NBA or anything.

Both are good players.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:03 pm

I don't think I underestimate Wheeler's ability to lead; I question his ability to lead an NBA team to take the step to contention. And I really don't think I'm mistaken. Of course, I'll be more than happy if Hayward ends up making me eat my own crap.

Both are good players, yes that's true. Both Indiana and Utah did good, that's true. But one has already started to lead his team in playoff series, while the other failed to contribute a little bit more to make postseason and for a stretch of the season appeared as being better coming from the bench... and that's true too, no matter what stats says Wink

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PD.... Man... I had serious thoughts about Henry back in time clown
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:21 pm

outerspacefan wrote:
I don't think I underestimate Wheeler's ability to lead; I question his ability to lead an NBA team to take the step to contention. And I really don't think I'm mistaken. Of course, I'll be more than happy if Hayward ends up making me eat my own crap.

Both are good players, yes that's true. Both Indiana and Utah did good, that's true. But one has already started to lead his team in playoff series, while the other failed to contribute a little bit more to make postseason and for a stretch of the season appeared as being better coming from the bench... and that's true too, no matter what stats says Wink

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PD.... Man... I had serious thoughts about Henry back in time clown

I don't think George is good enough to do that either quite frankly, as impressive as his triple double was and all. He's a nice player, but he's more Andre Igoudala than Lebron James.

You also can't hang Hayward's role all on him, coaching has a big role here, and I think we all know who has the better coach.
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:19 pm

Of course it's not Wheller's fault that coach started Marvin over him and Carroll; neither is his fault Corbin then paired him with Foye instead of Burks or Carroll. It's not his fault either that Mo really never got into it appropriately.

That said, Hayward really looked comfortable coming from the bench; if there's some competitive fire in him then he did find a way to hide it. And that's a concern if you're asking that guy to lead his teammates.

Man, a coupple plays here and there and the Jazz would have mae the cut, and Hayward was clearly the most gifted of them all... he should have been the one making the tiny difference.

As I said many times, Hayward will be a dependable and great player at 28 or 29... till then I don't expect him to lead anyone nowhere... it's unfair to Wheeler to expect such thing the same way it was unfair to Paul to expect him to carry us to take next step...
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PostSubject: Re: Gordon's watch   Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:01 pm

outerspacefan wrote:


That said, Hayward really looked comfortable coming from the bench; if there's some competitive fire in him then he did find a way to hide it. And that's a concern if you're asking that guy to lead his teammates..

GH is now my favorite player with the Jazz because he has simply dedicated his bad self to become better every year. That puts him right next to Evans in the obvious commitment department on the current roster. Consider both damn good picks by the Jazz, but they aren't leaders. Despite his Butler heroics, where I assume he was a leader, its different in the big leagues. Leadership starts first in the NBA by game domination, being the best player on the team and vocal. He is the perfect Robin for the Batman stud the Jazz haven't put on the payroll yet.
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