The Value of Deadline Trades

Here's a clip form an insider article, which includes a graphic I can't paste here, so I'm not going to give the whole thing.


Overall, the numbers indicate that Deadline trades don't make team much better, if at all. But what I found most interesting from the article was this....

Quote :

But where trades have really made a difference is among buyers on pace for 35-45 wins. Six of the eight teams in this group played better after making a deadline deal, and on average they improved their winning percentage by 7.6 percent the rest of the way -- an average jump of slightly more than two wins over the final 30 or so games. One of these teams, the 2009-10 "Fear the Deer" Milwaukee Bucks, made the biggest post-trade jump of any team in the past five years, going from winning 47.1 percent of their games before adding John Salmons at the deadline to 71.0 percent thereafter -- a run that nearly culminated in a playoff upset against the Atlanta Hawks.

It's easy to see why teams near .500 might benefit so much from a trade at the deadline. Because of their middling record, such teams usually have at least one obvious hole that can be fixed by adding a veteran player. And since they are fighting for one of the last few playoff spots, an extra two or three wins the rest of the season can prove critical when it comes to seeding or even making the playoffs at all.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130218/nba-do-trade-deadline-deals-work

I thought it was interesting that right after he stated this he listed several teams who fit the prifile, but the Jazz weren't one of them. I think the Jazz fall squarely in that category, but in order to realise a bump I think they would have to add a solid veteran PG WITHOUT giving up Millsap or Jefferson. Should be an interesting week...

This makes sense. Top 4 contenders in each conference should make trades much earlier on so they have time to mesh.

Lest we forget, there are some good things that the league is showing now:

stevesraptors: Anyone not believe new luxury tax provisions and limiting extend & trade rules killed the NBA trade deadline?
47 minutes ago

That was on Hoopsworld, so showing what this new CBA has done, and what it does for smaller market teams keeping their own. This is good.

Mutangclan wrote:

Lest we forget, there are some good things that the league is showing now:

stevesraptors: Anyone not believe new luxury tax provisions and limiting extend & trade rules killed the NBA trade deadline?
47 minutes ago

That was on Hoopsworld, so showing what this new CBA has done, and what it does for smaller market teams keeping their own. This is good.

Yeah. The chicken littles in the media following the Gay trade have no clue how the "apron" is going to kill excessive salaries in many situations.

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

rorybreaker wrote:

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

Who do you think they could have gotten?

Josh Smith was 100% going to be traded yesterday, but the best offers they got were from Orlando and Milwakee and DIDN'T involve the best players on either team, the offers were so bad that Atlanta decided that the opportunity to try and sign him or the cap room they would get if the didn't was more valuable, so he didn't get traded. You REALLY think that either Jefferson or Millsap was worth more than Smith?

This may have been the most assets the Jazz ever had, but the trade market this year sucked balls.

There a lot of reasons for that, the primary one being related to your out of date understanding of sign-and-trade. Under the current CBA sign and trade agreements are limited to the off-season and almost all of the advantages they used to afford have been taken away, so people are hoarding their talent in the hopes that they can use their real advantages in free agency to keep the good players that they have or sign other players outright.

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

Who do you think they could have gotten?

Josh Smith was 100% going to be traded yesterday, but the best offers they got were from Orlando and Milwakee and DIDN'T involve the best players on either team, the offers were so bad that Atlanta decided that the opportunity to try and sign him or the cap room they would get if the didn't was more valuable, so he didn't get traded. You REALLY think that either Jefferson or Millsap was worth more than Smith?

This may have been the most assets the Jazz ever had, but the trade market this year sucked balls.

There a lot of reasons for that, the primary one being related to your out of date understanding of sign-and-trade. Under the current CBA sign and trade agreements are limited to the off-season and almost all of the advantages they used to afford have been taken away, so people are hoarding their talent in the hopes that they can use their real advantages in free agency to keep the good players that they have or sign other players outright.

This had to be the least number of traded players at the Feb deadline in modern league history and clearly the new rules have come home to roost for everyone. Given the new realities with lux tax, sign and trade and the fact that expiring contracts on good players had about zero market appeal, one can expect an equally weird off-season trading world favoring teams trying to hang onto their own FA's. Suddenly, FO craftiness, growing your own talent and keeping them happy, surgical subtractions and additions of key pieces may issue in a new realm of possibilities for the smaller market teams. If this proves true, perhaps the Jazz really do have a chance to become more competitive simply by doing what they are doing now!?

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

Who do you think they could have gotten?

Josh Smith was 100% going to be traded yesterday, but the best offers they got were from Orlando and Milwakee and DIDN'T involve the best players on either team, the offers were so bad that Atlanta decided that the opportunity to try and sign him or the cap room they would get if the didn't was more valuable, so he didn't get traded. You REALLY think that either Jefferson or Millsap was worth more than Smith?

This may have been the most assets the Jazz ever had, but the trade market this year sucked balls.

There a lot of reasons for that, the primary one being related to your out of date understanding of sign-and-trade. Under the current CBA sign and trade agreements are limited to the off-season and almost all of the advantages they used to afford have been taken away, so people are hoarding their talent in the hopes that they can use their real advantages in free agency to keep the good players that they have or sign other players outright.

This had to be the least number of traded players at the Feb deadline in modern league history and clearly the new rules have come home to roost for everyone. Given the new realities with lux tax, sign and trade and the fact that expiring contracts on good players had about zero market appeal, one can expect an equally weird off-season trading world favoring teams trying to hang onto their own FA's. Suddenly, FO craftiness, growing your own talent and keeping them happy, surgical subtractions and additions of key pieces may issue in a new realm of possibilities for the smaller market teams. If this proves true, perhaps the Jazz really do have a chance to become more competitive simply by doing what they are doing now!?

Solid solid post there. Be interesting to see what the summer brings....

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

Who do you think they could have gotten?

Josh Smith was 100% going to be traded yesterday, but the best offers they got were from Orlando and Milwakee and DIDN'T involve the best players on either team, the offers were so bad that Atlanta decided that the opportunity to try and sign him or the cap room they would get if the didn't was more valuable, so he didn't get traded. You REALLY think that either Jefferson or Millsap was worth more than Smith?

This may have been the most assets the Jazz ever had, but the trade market this year sucked balls.

There a lot of reasons for that, the primary one being related to your out of date understanding of sign-and-trade. Under the current CBA sign and trade agreements are limited to the off-season and almost all of the advantages they used to afford have been taken away, so people are hoarding their talent in the hopes that they can use their real advantages in free agency to keep the good players that they have or sign other players outright.

None of us know any offers they made or had made to them.
Name the top ten FA point guards for this summer, which one of them gets the Jazz to the next level, also, tell me which players the Jazz want tor retain to get them to the next level,Millsap, Tinsley, Watson?
If they get three picks in the draft do you think they will get a game changing PG or swingman, they have four lottery picks that can't get enough minutes as it is, plus Evans and Murphy.
You might want to go reread what I said about the sign and trade scenario's people keep talking about, I said they wouldn't work new or old way.

rorybreaker wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

Who do you think they could have gotten?

Josh Smith was 100% going to be traded yesterday, but the best offers they got were from Orlando and Milwakee and DIDN'T involve the best players on either team, the offers were so bad that Atlanta decided that the opportunity to try and sign him or the cap room they would get if the didn't was more valuable, so he didn't get traded. You REALLY think that either Jefferson or Millsap was worth more than Smith?

This may have been the most assets the Jazz ever had, but the trade market this year sucked balls.

There a lot of reasons for that, the primary one being related to your out of date understanding of sign-and-trade. Under the current CBA sign and trade agreements are limited to the off-season and almost all of the advantages they used to afford have been taken away, so people are hoarding their talent in the hopes that they can use their real advantages in free agency to keep the good players that they have or sign other players outright.

None of us know any offers they made or had made to them.
Name the top ten FA point guards for this summer, which one of them gets the Jazz to the next level, also, tell me which players the Jazz want tor retain to get them to the next level,Millsap, Tinsley, Watson?
If they get three picks in the draft do you think they will get a game changing PG or swingman, they have four lottery picks that can't get enough minutes as it is, plus Evans and Murphy.
You might want to go reread what I said about the sign and trade scenario's people keep talking about, I said they wouldn't work new or old way.

I saw what you said, and it didn't make sense under the new rules because, feeding frenzy or not, Utah doesn't provide any real advantage to another team under a sign and trade, that's all I was getting at. I don't see anybody talking sign and trade, and especially not getting first round picks for it.

Why don't you name a single player that was available at the trade deadline that could get the Jazz to "the next level"? And you already lambasted the draft so that wasn't your motivation for wanting a trade, so I guess I'm confused with what the problem is. Lindsey said that they didn't even have any offers that were "tough decisions", he also hinted that rumors that Bledsoe was available were not true, so combined with the fact that we know the best offer the Hawks got for Smith was Ekpe Udoh, Luc Mbah a Moute, Beno Udrih, and a protected No. 1 pick and I think we have a pretty decent idea what kind of offers Lindsey was getting.

The Jazz have NINE expiring contracts, so, again, I don't really understand why you think nothing is going to change this summer and the Jazz are just going to bring everybody back, send the draft picks to the D-League, and give it a go?

The players they retain to get to the next level are all the quality vets they can afford and Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, and DC. Those guys are only getting better, and they are already pretty good.

There is actually a decent crop of PG's in this draft. Before the season people were pretty down on this years PG crop, but as the season has gone on a number of guys have been climbing up draft boards and now one of them (Smart) is getting buzz as a possible top 3 pick. One guy that I think would be PERFECT for the Jazz and is pegged mid first round right now is Trey Burke. Furthermore, the other chatter I'm hearing says that while the top of the draft is weak on start power, the second tier is actually pretty strong, and the late lottery-mid first round could produce some solid NBA talent.

So cheer up there rory, all is not lost. This summer should prove most interesting.

Magus, you mentioned the core four plus DC as the guys the team will keep, but IMO, DC will walk. Not because Utah wants to let him go but more because DC has truly earned floor time, but continues to be the first guy benched by Ty. Sadly, I think he will go somewhere else where he feels his skills and hustle will be appreciated more. I know that if I was in his shoes, I'd be looking elsewhere. Fan support is great (which Carroll has in Utah), but floor time is what he deserves.

zero24gravity wrote:

Magus, you mentioned the core four plus DC as the guys the team will keep, but IMO, DC will walk. Not because Utah wants to let him go but more because DC has truly earned floor time, but continues to be the first guy benched by Ty. Sadly, I think he will go somewhere else where he feels his skills and hustle will be appreciated more. I know that if I was in his shoes, I'd be looking elsewhere. Fan support is great (which Carroll has in Utah), but floor time is what he deserves.

Well I just said that is how they get better, I don't know if they'll keep him or not. I will say this though, the #1 way to show that you appreciate a guy in the NBA isn't playing time, it's $$$. If the Jazz make the best offer to him then he'll probably stay.

In the short term the #1 way the Jazz can get better in playing DC more. Playing him instead of Burks and Marvin would be a good start.

zero24gravity wrote:

Magus, you mentioned the core four plus DC as the guys the team will keep, but IMO, DC will walk. Not because Utah wants to let him go but more because DC has truly earned floor time, but continues to be the first guy benched by Ty. Sadly, I think he will go somewhere else where he feels his skills and hustle will be appreciated more. I know that if I was in his shoes, I'd be looking elsewhere. Fan support is great (which Carroll has in Utah), but floor time is what he deserves.

For that matter, Kanter has repeatedly earned more time by his play and not gotten it.

I wouldn't worry too much about next year with DC, though. If the Jazz can show him that their roster is structured in a way that he's got a path to more PT, that'll count more than what happened this year. I think. What I don't think is that these players get as butt-hurt and bitter as us fans do on their behalf. (MOST of them don't.) Hopefully they listen to their agents rather than their fan clubs.

I mean, DC got 6 min/game as a rookie in Denver, he got 16 mpg last year with the Jazz and he's gone from < 10 mpg the first 10 games of the season to >23/game the last ten. Of course, it will matter a lot how the last few weeks play out, but if he gets a chance to contribute to a seeding push and gets some run in the playoffs, it's more likely he'll continue to view the Jazz as "The Team That Gave Me My Chance" rather than dwelling on "Corbin didn't give me enough tick dammit!"

I HOPE his agent will tell him "You can have a defined and valued role here, but if you move on (3 teams in 4 years??), you might get stuck with the dreaded "journeyman" label."

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Three ways to get a player- Draft, trade or FA.
The Jazz just passed up on the best trading possibilities I've seen since I've been a fan (without breaking up the future nucleus of the team), the sign and trade scenario's will not work for Millsap or Big Al since neither would cause a feeding frenzy at FA signing time that would make a deal with Utah to get an upper hand in signing them most likely unneeded.
So draft, lets see, the Jazz have the core four plus, Murphy, Evans and to an extent Carroll, that all are screaming for minutes, now they can add two more kids under 22-23 to let sit around.
As for FA, go look and see what the PG free agents look like for this summer and see who would take the Jazz to the next level.
This is why in my opinion this trade period was crucial for the Jazz and they didn't come through.

Who do you think they could have gotten?

Josh Smith was 100% going to be traded yesterday, but the best offers they got were from Orlando and Milwakee and DIDN'T involve the best players on either team, the offers were so bad that Atlanta decided that the opportunity to try and sign him or the cap room they would get if the didn't was more valuable, so he didn't get traded. You REALLY think that either Jefferson or Millsap was worth more than Smith?

This may have been the most assets the Jazz ever had, but the trade market this year sucked balls.

There a lot of reasons for that, the primary one being related to your out of date understanding of sign-and-trade. Under the current CBA sign and trade agreements are limited to the off-season and almost all of the advantages they used to afford have been taken away, so people are hoarding their talent in the hopes that they can use their real advantages in free agency to keep the good players that they have or sign other players outright.

None of us know any offers they made or had made to them.
Name the top ten FA point guards for this summer, which one of them gets the Jazz to the next level, also, tell me which players the Jazz want tor retain to get them to the next level,Millsap, Tinsley, Watson?
If they get three picks in the draft do you think they will get a game changing PG or swingman, they have four lottery picks that can't get enough minutes as it is, plus Evans and Murphy.
You might want to go reread what I said about the sign and trade scenario's people keep talking about, I said they wouldn't work new or old way.

I saw what you said, and it didn't make sense under the new rules because, feeding frenzy or not, Utah doesn't provide any real advantage to another team under a sign and trade, that's all I was getting at. I don't see anybody talking sign and trade, and especially not getting first round picks for it.

Why don't you name a single player that was available at the trade deadline that could get the Jazz to "the next level"? And you already lambasted the draft so that wasn't your motivation for wanting a trade, so I guess I'm confused with what the problem is. Lindsey said that they didn't even have any offers that were "tough decisions", he also hinted that rumors that Bledsoe was available were not true, so combined with the fact that we know the best offer the Hawks got for Smith was Ekpe Udoh, Luc Mbah a Moute, Beno Udrih, and a protected No. 1 pick and I think we have a pretty decent idea what kind of offers Lindsey was getting.

The Jazz have NINE expiring contracts, so, again, I don't really understand why you think nothing is going to change this summer and the Jazz are just going to bring everybody back, send the draft picks to the D-League, and give it a go?

The players they retain to get to the next level are all the quality vets they can afford and Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, and DC. Those guys are only getting better, and they are already pretty good.

There is actually a decent crop of PG's in this draft. Before the season people were pretty down on this years PG crop, but as the season has gone on a number of guys have been climbing up draft boards and now one of them (Smart) is getting buzz as a possible top 3 pick. One guy that I think would be PERFECT for the Jazz and is pegged mid first round right now is Trey Burke. Furthermore, the other chatter I'm hearing says that while the top of the draft is weak on start power, the second tier is actually pretty strong, and the late lottery-mid first round could produce some solid NBA talent.

So cheer up there rory, all is not lost. This summer should prove most interesting.

Don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that I'm disappointed that the Jazz didn't get anything through the trade and no matter how Lindsey or KOC sell it there is no one that knows what offers were truly out there.
Going forward I see the Jazz line up something like this

PG- (starter unkown) Watson/draft pick
PG/SG- Foye (not a starter but getting a lot of important minutes)
SG- Burks, (hopefully very good FA but might have to wait for Marvins contract to clear)
SF- Hayward, DC, Marvin (the SG/SF positions interchangeable)
PF- Favors (decent FA)
C- Big Al, Kanter (Big Al if he is under $12-13 million tops)
Evans, Murphy, draft picks maybe Tinsley instead of Watson depending if the Jazz pick up a rookie PG or not.
Mo and Millsap gone and if Marvin would not use his option, use that money, top priority good starting PG.

rorybreaker wrote:

Don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that I'm disappointed that the Jazz didn't get anything through the trade and no matter how Lindsey or KOC sell it there is no one that knows what offers were truly out there.
Going forward I see the Jazz line up something like this

PG- (starter unkown) Watson/draft pick
PG/SG- Foye (not a starter but getting a lot of important minutes)
SG- Burks, (hopefully very good FA but might have to wait for Marvins contract to clear)
SF- Hayward, DC, Marvin (the SG/SF positions interchangeable)
PF- Favors (decent FA)
C- Big Al, Kanter (Big Al if he is under $12-13 million tops)
Evans, Murphy, draft picks maybe Tinsley instead of Watson depending if the Jazz pick up a rookie PG or not.
Mo and Millsap gone and if Marvin would not use his option, use that money, top priority good starting PG.

That is a definite possibility, but I think it turns out a little different.

I think that they look to draft a PG, being willing to trade up to get the one they want. I think they try to keep Mo but only on a 2 or 3 year contract and let Tinsley and Watson go, if Mo won't do it then they let him too, resign Foye, and maybe hit the free agent market. Marvin takes his option and I think the Jazz immediately make him available for trade. Not sure about Foye yet, but depending on who they draft and if they resign Mo, and if Burks continues to play strong then I think they may let him go. I think they keep Millsap rather than Big Al. I think they keep DC.

Trollificus wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Magus, you mentioned the core four plus DC as the guys the team will keep, but IMO, DC will walk. Not because Utah wants to let him go but more because DC has truly earned floor time, but continues to be the first guy benched by Ty. Sadly, I think he will go somewhere else where he feels his skills and hustle will be appreciated more. I know that if I was in his shoes, I'd be looking elsewhere. Fan support is great (which Carroll has in Utah), but floor time is what he deserves.

For that matter, Kanter has repeatedly earned more time by his play and not gotten it.

I wouldn't worry too much about next year with DC, though. If the Jazz can show him that their roster is structured in a way that he's got a path to more PT, that'll count more than what happened this year. I think. What I don't think is that these players get as butt-hurt and bitter as us fans do on their behalf. (MOST of them don't.) Hopefully they listen to their agents rather than their fan clubs.

I mean, DC got 6 min/game as a rookie in Denver, he got 16 mpg last year with the Jazz and he's gone from < 10 mpg the first 10 games of the season to >23/game the last ten. Of course, it will matter a lot how the last few weeks play out, but if he gets a chance to contribute to a seeding push and gets some run in the playoffs, it's more likely he'll continue to view the Jazz as "The Team That Gave Me My Chance" rather than dwelling on "Corbin didn't give me enough tick dammit!"

I HOPE his agent will tell him "You can have a defined and valued role here, but if you move on (3 teams in 4 years??), you might get stuck with the dreaded "journeyman" label."

At least in Kanter's case, the guys playing in front of him are better players. DC outplays Marv and even Burks (who I want to continue getting minutes), on a regular basis.

I hope you are right about DC sticking around, but in a recent interview he referred to his time on the court as a try-out for all the other NBA teams. Maybe I'm reading into it too much.

TheMagnus wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that I'm disappointed that the Jazz didn't get anything through the trade and no matter how Lindsey or KOC sell it there is no one that knows what offers were truly out there.
Going forward I see the Jazz line up something like this

PG- (starter unkown) Watson/draft pick
PG/SG- Foye (not a starter but getting a lot of important minutes)
SG- Burks, (hopefully very good FA but might have to wait for Marvins contract to clear)
SF- Hayward, DC, Marvin (the SG/SF positions interchangeable)
PF- Favors (decent FA)
C- Big Al, Kanter (Big Al if he is under $12-13 million tops)
Evans, Murphy, draft picks maybe Tinsley instead of Watson depending if the Jazz pick up a rookie PG or not.
Mo and Millsap gone and if Marvin would not use his option, use that money, top priority good starting PG.

That is a definite possibility, but I think it turns out a little different.

I think that they look to draft a PG, being willing to trade up to get the one they want. I think they try to keep Mo but only on a 2 or 3 year contract and let Tinsley and Watson go, if Mo won't do it then they let him too, resign Foye, and maybe hit the free agent market. Marvin takes his option and I think the Jazz immediately make him available for trade. Not sure about Foye yet, but depending on who they draft and if they resign Mo, and if Burks continues to play strong then I think they may let him go. I think they keep Millsap rather than Big Al. I think they keep DC.

The thing about Foye is his value, if they get him for under $3 million he is a huge bargain. He is definately not a starter but when they need a three or to close out a game with free throw shooting he would be big, plus I don't see any ego problems while Burks, DC and Hayward develop.
I agree about drafting a PG and moving up to do so, but Mo might be a problem with what could be a diminished role. One or both Tinsley and or Watson will probably be around as needed but I hope the day Watson retires the Jazz find something in the organization for him to do. I see him as a head coach someday.
I think Millsap or Big Al will be gone and one staying but not both. I would prefer it to be Big Al staying.
DC is another huge value player, what he brings to the team for the money he makes is very important. Someone will definately make a run for him with relatively big money.
I see the role players being big for the Jazz, while they look for the elite PG, SG or big man. The team would be dead in the water if not for Tinsley/Watson, DC has been very critical for not only what he does on the court but what he shames (maybe not the right word but close) the rest of the team to do. Foye while not in any way a starter in this league has really helped this team in a lot of games. Big Al and Millsap goes without saying are the bread and butter of the team, the development of the young 'uns is crucial but the little things will be the difference this year.

Couple things. I believe Foye is making 2-3m this year. Thats a steal for his game and he's giving this team everything it needs, outside killer. Re-upping him for 3m per is very solid. Arguable if he should stay as a starter since right now Marvin is just redundant out there. Ideally DC starts alongside Foye to cover all our bases.

The most ideal thing for everyone is if Marv miraculously doesn't take his option. Thats another reason I'd like to see Ty play him LESS, so he wants to move on. Somebody will give him a 3 year contract. That way, we resign DC for a great amount and 4 years, and the starting SF spot is probably his.

We all agree that we have a diamond in the rough with the play of DC. Being out here on the east coast I asked a couple of my basketball knowledgeable friends what they thought of DC as a player...not one of them knew who he was. That's the problem for him on the open market.
DC has had a couple opportunities to seek employment elsewhere but he continues to be overlooked by others. I don't believe he goes to any other team as long as the Jazz want him. I don't think there is a huge payday for him elsewhere (3-5 million). If I was the Jazz I would lock him up for 3yr 6 million contract (that doubles is salary). I would also resign Foye to a 3 year contract at $9-10 million.
Two reasonable contracts that won't hurt our flexibility next year.

Jazz Dog wrote:

We all agree that we have a diamond in the rough with the play of DC. Being out here on the east coast I asked a couple of my basketball knowledgeable friends what they thought of DC as a player...not one of them knew who he was. That's the problem for him on the open market.
DC has had a couple opportunities to seek employment elsewhere but he continues to be overlooked by others. I don't believe he goes to any other team as long as the Jazz want him. I don't think there is a huge payday for him elsewhere (3-5 million). If I was the Jazz I would lock him up for 3yr 6 million contract (that doubles is salary). I would also resign Foye to a 3 year contract at $9-10 million.
Two reasonable contracts that won't hurt our flexibility next year.

I don't think casual fan knowledge is a basis for gauging DC's marketability. There have been plenty of coaches, GM's and scouts watching the Junkyard Dog up close and personal when they were playing the Jazz and know full well what he brings to the table. If the Jazz don't sign him I gauruntee you he will be heavily courted by smart franchises - San Antonio comes to mind, (eh gads, can you imagine what Pop would get out of him in a culture that rewards junkyard effort?)

The enduring mystery to me, and I'm sensing most everyone else on this board, is why the hell Marvin is entrenched in the starting slot and with GH back DC gets DNPs. The only thing I can think of is Marv's salary and the Jazz being exceptionally patient, waiting for him to break out a bit. Marvin's play is nowhere close to 7.5 million per. If the Jazz intend to bring DC back they will need to paying at least $3MM on 3 years and at that he is a steal because he could start on a lot of teams and be a 6th man on many more. And if they do bring back DC and Marvin, (who will obviously re-up), what is going to change with respect to Ty's use of DC? Nothing. DC won't get the time he deserves until Ty smells the coffee or Marvin expires. He is not an awesome trade asset as he is one of those guys who doesn't play up to his salary and is more of a second unit guy than a starter.

MTJazz wrote:

The enduring mystery to me, and I'm sensing most everyone else on this board, is why the hell Marvin is entrenched in the starting slot and with GH back DC gets DNPs. The only thing I can think of is Marv's salary and the Jazz being exceptionally patient, waiting for him to break out a bit. Marvin's play is nowhere close to 7.5 million per. If the Jazz intend to bring DC back they will need to paying at least $3MM on 3 years and at that he is a steal because he could start on a lot of teams and be a 6th man on many more. And if they do bring back DC and Marvin, (who will obviously re-up), what is going to change with respect to Ty's use of DC? Nothing. DC won't get the time he deserves until Ty smells the coffee or Marvin expires. He is not an awesome trade asset as he is one of those guys who doesn't play up to his salary and is more of a second unit guy than a starter.

I don't dislike Marvin. Actually, I think he is a solid, but unspectacular and overpaid. I do wonder...... is it possible Marvin was being "showcased" a bit as a trade chip, but with the deadline gone, will soon give way to DC?

zero24gravity wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

The enduring mystery to me, and I'm sensing most everyone else on this board, is why the hell Marvin is entrenched in the starting slot and with GH back DC gets DNPs. The only thing I can think of is Marv's salary and the Jazz being exceptionally patient, waiting for him to break out a bit. Marvin's play is nowhere close to 7.5 million per. If the Jazz intend to bring DC back they will need to paying at least $3MM on 3 years and at that he is a steal because he could start on a lot of teams and be a 6th man on many more. And if they do bring back DC and Marvin, (who will obviously re-up), what is going to change with respect to Ty's use of DC? Nothing. DC won't get the time he deserves until Ty smells the coffee or Marvin expires. He is not an awesome trade asset as he is one of those guys who doesn't play up to his salary and is more of a second unit guy than a starter.

I don't dislike Marvin. Actually, I think he is a solid, but unspectacular and overpaid. I do wonder...... is it possible Marvin was being "showcased" a bit as a trade chip, but with the deadline gone, will soon give way to DC?

Could be but I've never been convinced teams actually showcase very much, especially if they are in the playoff hunt where no matter what you have to put your best line-up out there. I don't dislike Marv a bit either, in fact think he is would make an awesome second unit guy who can do starter minutes when needed. Its also not his fault he is overpaid or was the #2 pick. If he wasn't trying is hardest you know he would be benched; its the Jazz way with slackers. Its just one of those really weird deals where Ty and the FO sees something either in Marv or lacking in DC that we don't. Unfortunately, I can't see anything changing at all, Ty has ridden Marv through over half the season and the stats and eyeball show he is a below average SF; while the stats and eyeball also show DC is one of the most productive players by minute on the team, and he is not a 5-minutes or less-wonder-hurricane like Evans, he can be productive in 20+ minute stretches.

MJazz,

I agree that casual fans don't know the internal workings of the NBA like the professional types but we do know value where we see it.
DC had a chance to go anywhere before he sign his second contract with the Jazz and nobody wanted him. Even the super duper Spurs didn't want him. DC has been on a couple teams and has only got the love from us.
I like Marv and what he brings to the table. The part that drvies me crazy about Marv is the same thing that drives me crazy about Favors. Sometimes they both look like they aren't putting forth the effort because their game is smooth. I'm not saying Marv's game is as good as Favors, they just both have the same attiude and fire on the court. They both need to pick up the energy out there.
In my opinion anything over 2 million is to much for DC cause no one else would pay him that.

I listened to a talk show today out here in S Carolina that was talking about this upcoming free agency and they believe that Utah will be the main player in all areas of the market.

Jazz Dog wrote:

MJazz,

I agree that casual fans don't know the internal workings of the NBA like the professional types but we do know value where we see it.
DC had a chance to go anywhere before he sign his second contract with the Jazz and nobody wanted him. Even the super duper Spurs didn't want him. DC has been on a couple teams and has only got the love from us.
I like Marv and what he brings to the table. The part that drvies me crazy about Marv is the same thing that drives me crazy about Favors. Sometimes they both look like they aren't putting forth the effort because their game is smooth. I'm not saying Marv's game is as good as Favors, they just both have the same attiude and fire on the court. They both need to pick up the energy out there.
In my opinion anything over 2 million is to much for DC cause no one else would pay him that.

I listened to a talk show today out here in S Carolina that was talking about this upcoming free agency and they believe that Utah will be the main player in all areas of the market.

I hear you. Just throwing out there, though, that if Randy Foye is worth $3MM a year, as has been discussed, so is DC. DC was under radar last year even though the Jazz saw his talent but he isn't under radar anymore, especially in this new era of lux tax where getting more for less is going to separate the winners and losers in the mid- and small-market teams. Guys like DC will be at a premium, (because they don't command crazy money and you know what you are getting, you aren't paying for potential but rather what they can do). Crappy journeymen/roster filler makes $2MM a year and you have to remember, the average player salary is around $5.2MM. DC is not $3.2MM less than average and you know his agent knows that as well.

DC's agent knew what he was last year and got him a little over $800K. He isn't going to get 4 times his salary. I agree with others that he could be had for multi year deal around $2 million per.