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 Change.org Fire Coach T

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Mutangclan
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PostSubject: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:50 pm

I just found this, and given our discussions, thought maybe some would like to get on board.

http://www.change.org/petitions/fire-tyrone-corbin-and-sidney-lowe?utm_campaign=action_box&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=share_petition#share

I dont kid myself into thinking that it makes a difference, but if there was anything that could make it's way to the FO, this would be it. Pass it onto all your people!!

Also, feels a little bit better after signing it Very Happy


PS: Dang!!!! Zero, can you modify your admin change so this link works??? hah, the "former coach" thing keeps changing my link!
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:08 pm

Mutangclan wrote:

PS: Dang!!!! Zero, can you modify your admin change so this link works??? hah, the "former coach" thing keeps changing my link!


FIXED! Very Happy

SIGNED!


Last edited by zero24gravity on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mutangclan
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:10 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:

PS: Dang!!!! Zero, can you modify your admin change so this link works??? hah, the "former coach" thing keeps changing my link!


FIXED! Very Happy

Niiiiice, thanks homey. (now go sign it:)
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Done.

I'll pass it around at work, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:05 pm

So I'm going to keep this at the top of the Jazz page so everyone sees it but there was something else I had to share her.....Fire Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013).


At the game tonight, when the Mavs started their run in the 3rd quarter and Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) finally called a timeout, I was beyond exasperated. But I watched him, he walked out on to the court as they gave him the timeout and he was all sorts of pissed, and then the Mavs dancers came out to perform. And I shit you all not, Ty Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) watched the Mavs dancer girls the entire time out. I AM NOT JOKING. All the Jazz players went over to the bench, and Ty and his coaches stayed out onto the court. Hornacek and the other coaches were writing stuff, and Ty just watched the girls. The ENTIRE TIMEOUT, as the Mavs had just started running them off the court.

The timeout ended, the players came back out, and then Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) returned to the bench. No joke, no exaggeration.
Fire Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) please.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:56 am

Mutangclan wrote:
So I'm going to keep this at the top of the Jazz page so everyone sees it but there was something else I had to share her.....Fire Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013).


At the game tonight, when the Mavs started their run in the 3rd quarter and Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) finally called a timeout, I was beyond exasperated. But I watched him, he walked out on to the court as they gave him the timeout and he was all sorts of pissed, and then the Mavs dancers came out to perform. And I shit you all not, Ty Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) watched the Mavs dancer girls the entire time out. I AM NOT JOKING. All the Jazz players went over to the bench, and Ty and his coaches stayed out onto the court. Hornacek and the other coaches were writing stuff, and Ty just watched the girls. The ENTIRE TIMEOUT, as the Mavs had just started running them off the court.

The timeout ended, the players came back out, and then Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) returned to the bench. No joke, no exaggeration.
Fire Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) please.

Ok Tang, have to disagree with your call on this one. If I'm Ty, and I know this is my last game standing out on the floor as head coach with the Mav's dancers, (arguably the hottest in the league), everything I'm doing is failing under the bright lights, I'm going to indulge in a little escapism T&A appreciation. Life is short, enjoy the feminine! He showed he is a normal red blooded American man. sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:14 pm

Which Jazz player said this today?

"I think its great because you know you are being coached by one of the best coaches in NBA history. Every day at practice, there is something great because you can learn something from him and he loves this team and he loves basketball and you can see the fire inside of him because he wants to win."

Puzzling, right? Answer: No Jazz player. It was Gallinari loving on Karl.

What an unnamed Jazz player did say today:

"I think it sucks because you know you are being coached by one of the worst coaches in the league this year. Every day at practice, there is something stupid he says that you don't learn from and is not clear he even likes us and he seems stressed about his job and the firing coming makes him about to pop."

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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:47 pm

MTJazz wrote:
Which Jazz player said this today?

"I think its great because you know you are being coached by one of the best coaches in NBA history. Every day at practice, there is something great because you can learn something from him and he loves this team and he loves basketball and you can see the fire inside of him because he wants to win."

Puzzling, right? Answer: No Jazz player. It was Gallinari loving on Karl.

What an unnamed Jazz player did say today:

"I think it sucks because you know you are being coached by one of the worst coaches in the league this year. Every day at practice, there is something stupid he says that you don't learn from and is not clear he even likes us and he seems stressed about his job and the firing coming makes him about to pop."


Sorry for the negative rep point, i bumped the tiny mark on my phone and now I can't undo it, I'll make it up to you somewhere else...
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:09 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
Which Jazz player said this today?

"I think its great because you know you are being coached by one of the best coaches in NBA history. Every day at practice, there is something great because you can learn something from him and he loves this team and he loves basketball and you can see the fire inside of him because he wants to win."

Puzzling, right? Answer: No Jazz player. It was Gallinari loving on Karl.

What an unnamed Jazz player did say today:

"I think it sucks because you know you are being coached by one of the worst coaches in the league this year. Every day at practice, there is something stupid he says that you don't learn from and is not clear he even likes us and he seems stressed about his job and the firing coming makes him about to pop."


Sorry for the negative rep point, i bumped the tiny mark on my phone and now I can't undo it, I'll make it up to you somewhere else...

I gave a positive point to make up for it. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:33 am

zero24gravity wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
Which Jazz player said this today?

"I think its great because you know you are being coached by one of the best coaches in NBA history. Every day at practice, there is something great because you can learn something from him and he loves this team and he loves basketball and you can see the fire inside of him because he wants to win."

Puzzling, right? Answer: No Jazz player. It was Gallinari loving on Karl.

What an unnamed Jazz player did say today:

"I think it sucks because you know you are being coached by one of the worst coaches in the league this year. Every day at practice, there is something stupid he says that you don't learn from and is not clear he even likes us and he seems stressed about his job and the firing coming makes him about to pop."


Sorry for the negative rep point, i bumped the tiny mark on my phone and now I can't undo it, I'll make it up to you somewhere else...

I gave a positive point to make up for it. Very Happy

Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:44 am

Reading some of the comparisons you guys have, who should get minutes etc about Al verses Paul, or Al verses Kanter, Burks vs Foye, Fav vs Kanter and on and on, I think its important to realize that alot of these guys shouldn't be compared. In my opinion, every player on this team except for Al and Mo are victims. They've all been victimized by Tyrone. With the horrible rotations, the confusing lineups, the confusing roles given, the wrong players played and the lack of minutes given, they all have been victimized, and their stats have suffered. With a Non-Terrible coach, most of these questions would have been answered by their play on the court. However, our coach ruined all that business.

Ex. Do I think that Kanter should be playing more than Al? At this point I'd say yes, but not by much. However, had Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) used a winning formula with his rotations, I think Kanter would have answered the questions himself, and there wouldn't have even been an argument.

Mo and Al get free reign with minutes and on the court, so they do whatever they want. So they're not victims. But all these other guys are victims. Next year, assuming someone new comes in, I think we'll see just how talented our players are: Marv in the right role, Foye in the right role, Gordo with the right group, Burks leading/starting minutes and so on.

Sign the petition cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:03 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
But all these other guys are victims. Next year, assuming someone new comes in, I think we'll see just how talented our players are: Marv in the right role, Foye in the right role, Gordo with the right group, Burks leading/starting minutes and so on.

Sign the petition cheers

Yeah, the right role for Foye is off the bench and if he ain't shooting worth crap immediately sit his azz down until its desperation 3 point time. Same for Marvin. Arrghhh! To think Foye has started all season, Marvin most of it...perhaps victims but also really mediocre players it turns out. And at the expense of minutes for Burks, JE and DC!

Do you think the Jazz will start their best five once this season?????? Just to see what that looks like? Nahhhh, that is second guessing one of the best brains in the business, the coach formerly known as Utah's head coach!
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:39 am

Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) admitted he sometimes wonders why his team has struggled so much to string together these types of efforts in the past month after playing so well in January. But the former NBA player empathizes with his players.


Gee Tyyyrone, I wonder why.......could it be because your rotations make no sense, guys minutes aren't decided by their play, and the better players are sitting on the bench as the lesser ones lose games????
Just saying, that could be a starting point.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:38 am

You boys and girls forward this to all your friends. Again, dont kid myself that I think Rigby/KOC/Lindsey will look at this at all, but it is the only thing out there with a Jazz Fans voice.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:56 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
You boys and girls forward this to all your friends. Again, dont kid myself that I think Rigby/KOC/Lindsey will look at this at all, but it is the only thing out there with a Jazz Fans voice.

I signed & passed it along right after you posted this, but there are still only 84 sigs. Gotta get more!
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:32 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
You boys and girls forward this to all your friends. Again, dont kid myself that I think Rigby/KOC/Lindsey will look at this at all, but it is the only thing out there with a Jazz Fans voice.

MuTang, you know I've backed you up many times in the past. But, your fire Corbin campaign has gone completely off-base and has no merits other than pathetic echoes by smaller minds with internet access.

I've listened patiently as you and others have continually posted about how Burks and DC are the answers to all the Jazz' woes. I haven't wanted to say too much because I have high hopes for DC and Burks. But, give me a f-ing break-- DC and Burks both are high-energy low talent players that probably would not get a chance to play on any playoff-bound team. We're a middle of the road team, and DC and Burks are at best middle of the road 2nd stringers.

Mu Tang (and others), you have completely lost perspective in your hatred of Ty and how you look at Jazz games. As a PG, Burks is probably our 4th best option. As a SG, Burks is behind Heyhay, Foye, and DC (not to mention Mo at the SG). As a SG/SF swing, DC is behind Heyhay and Foye, and, IMO, Marvin Williams. I'm not saying Burks and DC are useless-- but, Burks rarely merits playing time, and DC SHOULD get more emergency play at the sg/sf position.

With the most recent criticisms of how Ty coached our team against Denver, it is easy for me to see how myopic (short-sighted, unable to see the big picture) you (Mu) and others are when looking at Jazz games. There were no complaints about the Jazz in the first half. No one mentioned how badly the Jazz were outmatched once Corey Brewer came in for Denver's 2nd unit. We all love Heyhay, but, Brewer came in fresh and tore him apart.

Then, as everyone on this site seems to agree, the Jazz went from a team equal to Denver to a sub-par team at the beginning of the 3rd quarter.. The Jazz starters of Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Gordan Hayward, Paul Millsap, and Al Jefferson gave away eight straight points to the Nugs. But, let's look at what happened. We started with a possession and Millsap missed on a pretty good look. Koufos rebounded, but, we played good defense and got a steal (by Foye). Then Heyhay missed an open 3pt shot and Koufos rebounded. We played good defense and Big Al got the rebound. We moved the ball around on offense, then Mo took it to the rim and was blocked by Koufos, who also got the rebound. We played good defense and Millsap got the rebound. Then, Heyhay missed another open shot and Koufos got the rebound. We played pretty good defense, but with two seconds left on the shot clock Iguadala nailed a lucky 3pt shot. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter and Denver breaks the defensive tie. Now, this is the point where
Denver is about to break lose, or, this is where the Jazz simply answer a 3-0 two minutes with a basket to make it 3-2 for the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Foye misses a desperation 3pt shot with one second left on the shot clock and Faried gets the defensive rebound. 13 seconds later Gallinari beats Heyhay to the hoop and makes a lay-up-- Foye fouls him too late to stop the shot from going in. He makes the free throw. IS THIS WHERE TY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OUT OUR STARTERS? And if Ty takes anyone out, who should it be? Mo is distributing well on offense, but no one is hitting their open shots. Mo has played solid defense so far in the 3rd quarter, so there is no reason to take him out. Foye is actually playing great defense, and, aside from missing a desperation three, he has done nothing wrong. Heyhay has missed some open looks and is getting destroyed by Denver's Gallinari/Iguadala combo. (But, Heyward is really one of our best players, so, how the hell can we take HIM out?) Millsap has completely neutralized his opponent, and, his opponent has completely neutralized Millsap. Big Al hasn't taken a shot yet in the 3rd quarter, and that MUST be confusing for someone who most every expert in NBA analysis says is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA. SO, IF TY MAKES ANY CHANGES, WHAT ARE THEY? Ty doesn't take a timeout, and Mo ends up taking another desperation 3, which misses, and 23 seconds later Iguadal beats Heyhay to the rim for a dunk-- that's eight points in a row for Denver, and they all came from Iguadala and Gallineri. Heyhay is getting burned left and right. IT'S AN 8-0 RUN 4 MINUTES INTO THE 3RD QUARTER! WHAT SHOULD TY DO?

An 8-0 run over 4 minutes is not really something any NBA coach should worry too much about. The opponents getting 8 pts in a 4 minute span is completely acceptable. What IS worth worrying about is the complete lack of scoring. And, at this point in the game, the Jazz already have their best scorers on the floor. They need a change in mind-sets, and possible personnel! At this point the Jazz players played better. Foye and Jefferson became very active offensively. They made some and missed some. But Faried abused Millsap on the offensive end. Millsap finally got to the rim and was fouled, to make two free throws, but TY decided Favors was a better matchup at PF, and pulled Millsap. This actually worked until Denver inserted Corey Brewer back into the game.

When Corey Brewer re-entered the game shortly into the 4th quarter, the Nuggets were on cruise control. Imagine the world's best janitor asked to clean up a mess with only 4 co-workers. Brewer barely did anything remarkable in the 4th quarter He just cleaned it up and made sure everyone punched the clock. Blame Ty if you want-- but, I don't think anyone on this site could have coached the Jazz more efficiently. I really think this whole "Fire Ty" campaign is complete bullshit, driven by desires that are not entirely rooted in reality. Sorry, forumotioners-- I ain't with you on this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:14 am

That's a great, well-thought-out post, St. Louis, and though I don't entirely agree with your sentiments regarding the ultimate fate of Ty Corbin, it's hard to argue with such specific analysis.

I have not responded to this particular thread, because I'm not, nor will I ever be, a pitchforks and torches kind of fan. As has been pointed out by some of the less emotional posters on this site, coaching in the NBA is an incredibly difficult endeavor that requires a multitude of skills and capabilities to pull off successfully. Let's face it, coaching is not just X's and O's. You have to be a quick, on-the-fly thinker, you have to manage personalities and egos, you have to deal with front office expectations, you have to work through injuries, hurt egos and sometimes delicate psyches, there are the fans, the referees, the press and the league providing different obstacles and motivations, and all of that is piled on top of your basic offensive and defensive strategizing. And all that really doesn't mean a hell of a lot when, ultimately, you don't have the correct personnel.

The Jazz have an interesting mix of talent, some older, veteran talent mixed with a core of young players, all of whom have decent potential. When the season began, no one besides a few of our more optimistic fans and perhaps a couple of the more homeresque local media types expected this team to even make the playoffs. I have to admit that I didn't expect the playoffs. As the season wore on, there were a few moments where I had an inkling of hope, especially with how poorly the Lakers and Mavericks were playing, but when Mo went down, I thought it was game over. At this point, I find it quite surprising that the Jazz are still contending, given Mo's injury and the Lakers' resurgence. So, with this in mind, does Ty really deserve such heavy vilification?

I think the bulk of the criticism laid at Ty's feet has been in the way he has used his players. His rotations at times have been puzzling, and his insistence on clinging to his vets at the expense of playing more Kanter, Burks and DC has been frustrating for many diehard fans. Why not give those kids more of a chance, the fans clamor. It has been a real struggle. Do you really want to sit the best offensive player on the team (Jefferson), despite his awful defense and blackholeness, in order to give the Underkanter more minutes? Should you sit an $8 million dollar man in Marvin Williams, a career double figures man, in favor of an NBA journeyman in DC who is really still a relatively unknown commodity (but holy shit does he bring it in the hustle department)? And then there's the PG situation. Mo goes down. He's an average NBA PG at best. Your alternatives are two old guys who are at the end of their careers, and Burks, who is obviously more go an SG than a PG. Do you just go all in with Burks, an athletic, upside kid without PG experience, meaning lots of turnovers and some inconsistency, or do you trust one of the trusty old men?

These questions are harder than hell to answer. Personally, I doubt if these questions would have been answered more adequately with a different coach. Ty Corbin has a system in place. Is it a system that everyone loves? No. Is it a system that tends to alienate or shut down certain players? Yes. (I'm looking at you, Marvin Williams.). I doubt if Ty Corbin knew that MW would just shut down as he has done, rather than become more like a Harpring or Ronnie Brewer, guys who can live and thrive without any plays being run for them. Also, I doubt if Ty anticipated that Randy Foye would be so inconsistent with his shooting percentages. One thing I do know is that Ty, or most other NBA coaches for that matter, sure as shit wasn't going to rest his fate on a bunch of second and third year players to guide him to the playoffs.

So, did it take him too long to recognize that some changes in the lineup were necessary, yes, in my opinion. Was he a bit slow in recognizing what combinations were the most optimal on the floor, yes, again. But no matter how you slice it, Ty is still only stuck with the guys he's got. A bunch of free agents in Jefferson (slow, black hole), Millsap (undersized, moody), Foye (inconsistent), Marvin (disappearing act) and Mo (below average PG), and a bunch of young guys who still haven't reached their ceilings. With that in mind, it's hard for mr to vociferously join the "Fire Ty" crowd. The Jazz should definitely explore their options, but if the front office thinks the best option is to keep Ty, I can live with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:02 am

Saint Louis wrote:


....

then, as everyone on this site seems to agree, the Jazz went from a team equal to Denver to a sub-par team at the beginning of the 3rd quarter.. The Jazz starters of Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Gordan Hayward, Paul Millsap, and Al Jefferson gave away eight straight points to the Nugs. But, let's look at what happened. We started with a possession and Millsap missed on a pretty good look. Koufos rebounded, but, we played good defense and got a steal (by Foye). Then Heyhay missed an open 3pt shot and Koufos rebounded. We played good defense and Big Al got the rebound. We moved the ball around on offense, then Mo took it to the rim and was blocked by Koufos, who also got the rebound. We played good defense and Millsap got the rebound. Then, Heyhay missed another open shot and Koufos got the rebound. We played pretty good defense, but with two seconds left on the shot clock Iguadala nailed a lucky 3pt shot. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter and Denver breaks the defensive tie. Now, this is the point where
Denver is about to break lose, or, this is where the Jazz simply answer a 3-0 two minutes with a basket to make it 3-2 for the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Foye misses a desperation 3pt shot with one second left on the shot clock and Faried gets the defensive rebound. 13 seconds later Gallinari beats Heyhay to the hoop and makes a lay-up-- Foye fouls him too late to stop the shot from going in. He makes the free throw. IS THIS WHERE TY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OUT OUR STARTERS? And if Ty takes anyone out, who should it be? Mo is distributing well on offense, but no one is hitting their open shots. Mo has played solid defense so far in the 3rd quarter, so there is no reason to take him out. Foye is actually playing great defense, and, aside from missing a desperation three, he has done nothing wrong. Heyhay has missed some open looks and is getting destroyed by Denver's Gallinari/Iguadala combo. (But, Heyward is really one of our best players, so, how the hell can we take HIM out?) Millsap has completely neutralized his opponent, and, his opponent has completely neutralized Millsap. Big Al hasn't taken a shot yet in the 3rd quarter, and that MUST be confusing for someone who most every expert in NBA analysis says is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA. SO, IF TY MAKES ANY CHANGES, WHAT ARE THEY? Ty doesn't take a timeout, and Mo ends up taking another desperation 3, which misses, and 23 seconds later Iguadal beats Heyhay to the rim for a dunk-- that's eight points in a row for Denver, and they all came from Iguadala and Gallineri. Heyhay is getting burned left and right. IT'S AN 8-0 RUN 4 MINUTES INTO THE 3RD QUARTER! WHAT SHOULD TY DO?

...

Solid post there Saint, very solid, just had to fix a couple of factual errors for you.

1) Foye was guarding Iggy, who scored 5 of the 8 points to start the half, yet somehow Hayward is solely responsible for getting "destroyed" by the Iggy/Galo combo while Foye was "playing great D"? Don't think so.

2) At no point in the Denver game did Mo Williams play anything that resembled "good" D. It was just a matter of whether or not Andre Miller decided that he wanted to let someone else score or that he'd like to do it himself, and the 5 minutes that Fournier was against Mo it was a massacre.

3) "most every expert in NBA analysis says [Jefferson] is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA." Um, sorry, that's not even close to being true. Here's what NBA "experts" have said about Al Jefferson this week...

Ranking the top Free agents this summer, All Jefferson is #8 behind the likes of David West, Andrew Bynum, Andre Igoudala, and Nicola Peckovic....


Quote :

How can a player with a career PER more than 20 be valued so low? First, Jefferson gets a hit for not winning. He's been paid like a franchise player, yet his teams have not achieved consistent playoff appearances. I'm not putting it all on Jefferson, but he's got to have a more positive impact on his team's win-loss percentage. Second, it's a virtual lock that he will not return to Utah, given the development of Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter.


The Jazz will seek a sign-and-trade to recoup some value for Jefferson, but if that can't get done, he'll have to sign with a team with cap space. He's a better defensive rebounder than any of the above-mentioned centers, and his low-post game, while unorthodox, is extremely effective. But he's less efficient overall from the field (he's taken 300 long 2-point attempts versus 249 at the rim), and he's a train wreck defensively. If I could pair him with a defensive-minded big and get him to improve his shot selection, he'd be a worthwhile free-agency target at four years, $40 million.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9109226/nba-top-30-free-agents-2013-ranked-average-annual-value

From a ESPN 5-on-5 responding to the question of who is more valuable, Al Jefferson, or Andrew Bynum (who may NEVER PLAY AGAIN)

Quote :

Gutierrez: Jefferson. What can you honestly expect out of Bynum, other than a certain controversy and some potential for wig sales? Jefferson has yet to elevate a team despite impressive numbers, but toss in 17 and 9 in the right system, and Jefferson could finally be an impact player on a very good team. Bynum could be the centerpiece of a good team. Or he could be a sideshow on crutches.

Han: Jefferson, even though Andrew Bynum is the better player. Bynum can absolutely be a franchise cornerstone, but carries the dreaded "if healthy" tag. And with his health concerns, his value is cloudy at best. Jefferson is a known quantity that is, in relation, quite reliable.

Herbert: Bynum. It feels forever ago now, but pre-injury Bynum was on his way to being a franchise-caliber center. Those almost never come along. Jefferson, while very skilled and certainly more reliable than Bynum, possesses defensive flaws that prevent him from being seen the same way.

Winter: Bynum. Despite his unique, old-school offensive talents as a true low post threat, Jefferson's net impact is still something close to zero. Bynum, though, presents tremendous influence on both ends as a space-eater with soft touch and great hands. Seriously alarming injury history notwithstanding, that makes him the better commodity.

Nowell: Bynum. This could blow up in my face, but if Bynum gets healthy, he's a two-way talent Jefferson can't match. Of course, if Bynum's knees never repair themselves, Jefferson is better then by default, but Bynum could still anchor a team; Jefferson is more ballast than anchor.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-130401/nba-which-2013-free-agents-more-valuable

The word is out on Jefferson, and the word isn't good.



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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:41 am

Saint Louis wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
You boys and girls forward this to all your friends. Again, dont kid myself that I think Rigby/KOC/Lindsey will look at this at all, but it is the only thing out there with a Jazz Fans voice.

MuTang, you know I've backed you up many times in the past. But, your fire Corbin campaign has gone completely off-base and has no merits other than pathetic echoes by smaller minds with internet access.

I've listened patiently as you and others have continually posted about how Burks and DC are the answers to all the Jazz' woes. I haven't wanted to say too much because I have high hopes for DC and Burks. But, give me a f-ing break-- DC and Burks both are high-energy low talent players that probably would not get a chance to play on any playoff-bound team. We're a middle of the road team, and DC and Burks are at best middle of the road 2nd stringers.

Mu Tang (and others), you have completely lost perspective in your hatred of Ty and how you look at Jazz games. As a PG, Burks is probably our 4th best option. As a SG, Burks is behind Heyhay, Foye, and DC (not to mention Mo at the SG). As a SG/SF swing, DC is behind Heyhay and Foye, and, IMO, Marvin Williams. I'm not saying Burks and DC are useless-- but, Burks rarely merits playing time, and DC SHOULD get more emergency play at the sg/sf position.

With the most recent criticisms of how Ty coached our team against Denver, it is easy for me to see how myopic (short-sighted, unable to see the big picture) you (Mu) and others are when looking at Jazz games. There were no complaints about the Jazz in the first half. No one mentioned how badly the Jazz were outmatched once Corey Brewer came in for Denver's 2nd unit. We all love Heyhay, but, Brewer came in fresh and tore him apart.

Then, as everyone on this site seems to agree, the Jazz went from a team equal to Denver to a sub-par team at the beginning of the 3rd quarter.. The Jazz starters of Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Gordan Hayward, Paul Millsap, and Al Jefferson gave away eight straight points to the Nugs. But, let's look at what happened. We started with a possession and Millsap missed on a pretty good look. Koufos rebounded, but, we played good defense and got a steal (by Foye). Then Heyhay missed an open 3pt shot and Koufos rebounded. We played good defense and Big Al got the rebound. We moved the ball around on offense, then Mo took it to the rim and was blocked by Koufos, who also got the rebound. We played good defense and Millsap got the rebound. Then, Heyhay missed another open shot and Koufos got the rebound. We played pretty good defense, but with two seconds left on the shot clock Iguadala nailed a lucky 3pt shot. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter and Denver breaks the defensive tie. Now, this is the point where
Denver is about to break lose, or, this is where the Jazz simply answer a 3-0 two minutes with a basket to make it 3-2 for the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Foye misses a desperation 3pt shot with one second left on the shot clock and Faried gets the defensive rebound. 13 seconds later Gallinari beats Heyhay to the hoop and makes a lay-up-- Foye fouls him too late to stop the shot from going in. He makes the free throw. IS THIS WHERE TY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OUT OUR STARTERS? And if Ty takes anyone out, who should it be? Mo is distributing well on offense, but no one is hitting their open shots. Mo has played solid defense so far in the 3rd quarter, so there is no reason to take him out. Foye is actually playing great defense, and, aside from missing a desperation three, he has done nothing wrong. Heyhay has missed some open looks and is getting destroyed by Denver's Gallinari/Iguadala combo. (But, Heyward is really one of our best players, so, how the hell can we take HIM out?) Millsap has completely neutralized his opponent, and, his opponent has completely neutralized Millsap. Big Al hasn't taken a shot yet in the 3rd quarter, and that MUST be confusing for someone who most every expert in NBA analysis says is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA. SO, IF TY MAKES ANY CHANGES, WHAT ARE THEY? Ty doesn't take a timeout, and Mo ends up taking another desperation 3, which misses, and 23 seconds later Iguadal beats Heyhay to the rim for a dunk-- that's eight points in a row for Denver, and they all came from Iguadala and Gallineri. Heyhay is getting burned left and right. IT'S AN 8-0 RUN 4 MINUTES INTO THE 3RD QUARTER! WHAT SHOULD TY DO?

An 8-0 run over 4 minutes is not really something any NBA coach should worry too much about. The opponents getting 8 pts in a 4 minute span is completely acceptable. What IS worth worrying about is the complete lack of scoring. And, at this point in the game, the Jazz already have their best scorers on the floor. They need a change in mind-sets, and possible personnel! At this point the Jazz players played better. Foye and Jefferson became very active offensively. They made some and missed some. But Faried abused Millsap on the offensive end. Millsap finally got to the rim and was fouled, to make two free throws, but TY decided Favors was a better matchup at PF, and pulled Millsap. This actually worked until Denver inserted Corey Brewer back into the game.

When Corey Brewer re-entered the game shortly into the 4th quarter, the Nuggets were on cruise control. Imagine the world's best janitor asked to clean up a mess with only 4 co-workers. Brewer barely did anything remarkable in the 4th quarter He just cleaned it up and made sure everyone punched the clock. Blame Ty if you want-- but, I don't think anyone on this site could have coached the Jazz more efficiently. I really think this whole "Fire Ty" campaign is complete bullshit, driven by desires that are not entirely rooted in reality. Sorry, forumotioners-- I ain't with you on this one.

Interesting. Lets point out the elephant in the room first: This entire forum is BULLSHIT. All this stuff we talk about is bullshit, all of our opinions on here are bullshit, all of our arguments our bullshit, the "better ways" to manage the team on here are bullshit. AND THAT IS THE POINT OF IT, correct?

Quite the finger pointing there guy. But one thing to point out first. It was not my petition, someone else started it, I just found it and passed it on. But for you to come on here and blast away, calling other fans and their opinions "small minds", is a bit much. Maybe come down off that horse for a second. They're opinions, nothing more, nothing less. And your opinion is no better than those "small minded" folks, no better than mine. Shoot, it isn't even better than Calgary's.

It's also very interesting that you're so serious about a petition that I have more than once pointed out that I fully well know is not going anywhere and is just a fun thing to dream about. There is no way in hell the Jazz front office is going to see it, and even if they did, there is no way in hell they would give it a second thought. And I've repeated that since it came on here.

I'm a Jazz fan, and a frustrated fan at that. If you dont like fans expressing their opinions, emotional or not, that too bad for you pally. Thats the entire point of this forum. The most interesting part of it all, is that you can come on here and tell me that I've completely lost perspective on the team that I watch every game of, and that my opinion of Burks and DC is completely WRONG. But I have news for you, if you actually do believe that Burks and DC are low talent players that dont help a team immensely, then you dont know nearly as much as you seem to think you do.

The other part of that is I NEVER said DC and Burks were the answer to all the teams woe's. I've said that Corbin should play the players that give the team the best chance to win. THAT IS ALL. I'm not making out to be more than they are. Oh, and not coincidentally, the numbers show that I am right. (and since I dont carry as much weight around here, Magnus also has felt the same.)

If you think that Burks is our fourth best option at PG, then you are coming across as someone who is not very knowledgeable of the game.

Funny, lumping me into the Denver game talk. I believe all I said was "nice rotations Tyrone". That was it. But calling me shortsighted and unable to see the big picture.....hmmmm. Interesting. Somebody really needs to slow their roll, eh?

I have been consistent all year long, that there needs to be a balance to the starting and second units. Been a broken record. And since Al/Mo are two of the worst defenders going, we need IN MY OPINION, to have other good defenders on the court. Also, very few disagree that Foye is not a starting type player, that he is best suited as a hired gun off the bench. He also is not a very good defender. DC fills this roll perfectly and balance's out the first unit. And Foye coming off the bench, also balances out the 2nd unit as a scorer that is now needed with Gordon starting.
Lastly, Tinsely and Watson should never play. It's not opinion, its fact backed up by numbers, statistics, and knowledge of watching the game. It's best for the team now, in the future, and to win games if Burks plays the back up PG. Thats NOT opinion.

Very interesting that you come on here posting as if you are right in all your assessments, and everyone else is wrong. That only you can see the big picture, but I can't....very interesting.......Im sorry you are so bothered by other peoples opinions on a site developed to have opinions posted. But just because you have opinions on others, and the Jazz, doesn't mean you're right.


**Also:
http://jazznation.forumotion.com/t569-jazz-pelicans-game-thread#9537




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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:46 am

Nice posts St. Lou and kickazz. Don't necessarily agree with several of your various points but thoughtful nonetheless. There are very few of us on this forum who agree straight up with each other and that is awesome. Otherwise we all sit around and agree with ourselves, making for a boring place to come waste time and exercise our inner-man-jazzfandom.

For me it comes down to this: Ty's body of work with albeit a non-contending roster is below average and he is a below average coach. In my mind that is a great reason to fire Ty so the Jazz roster, moving forward after this complete MEH season, have a shot at becoming relevant again. The FO also has to pull some rabbits out of their hats and bring in complimentary/anchor talent for any coach, (and yes, it will be Ty again next year), to nudge this team into the middle of the playoff pack conversation.

The young guys development program has been awkward this year and I put that on Ty's rotations. The young guys on contract are the Jazz future, not the rental and expiring veterans. It takes little more to see Ty's flaws then his dogged insistence starting Marv most of the season without figuring out a way to make him more effective and involved - leading Marv to even worse numbers than he put up in Atlanta. For $8 million a year. Same can be said for starting Foye all season when he clearly helps shoot the Jazz out of more games than he helps them win and the fact he can only straight-up guard about 40% of the opposing SGs. Kanter was criminally underplayed. DC was criminally underplayed, (and mark my words, he is far better than a so-so backup on a so-so team). Jury is out on Burks ceiling but what we did see is he could handily outplay Foye on most nights on both ends of the floor when he got the minutes. I would say that GH and Favors were the only young guys that got appropriate minutes and at that GH was on the second unit too long and Favors was not strategically used in specific games and minutes when his defense was sorely needed. So, I give Ty a C- on developing our young players - the future. That is enough for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:28 pm

Mutangclan wrote:
Saint Louis wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
You boys and girls forward this to all your friends. Again, dont kid myself that I think Rigby/KOC/Lindsey will look at this at all, but it is the only thing out there with a Jazz Fans voice.

MuTang, you know I've backed you up many times in the past. But, your fire Corbin campaign has gone completely off-base and has no merits other than pathetic echoes by smaller minds with internet access.

I've listened patiently as you and others have continually posted about how Burks and DC are the answers to all the Jazz' woes. I haven't wanted to say too much because I have high hopes for DC and Burks. But, give me a f-ing break-- DC and Burks both are high-energy low talent players that probably would not get a chance to play on any playoff-bound team. We're a middle of the road team, and DC and Burks are at best middle of the road 2nd stringers.

Mu Tang (and others), you have completely lost perspective in your hatred of Ty and how you look at Jazz games. As a PG, Burks is probably our 4th best option. As a SG, Burks is behind Heyhay, Foye, and DC (not to mention Mo at the SG). As a SG/SF swing, DC is behind Heyhay and Foye, and, IMO, Marvin Williams. I'm not saying Burks and DC are useless-- but, Burks rarely merits playing time, and DC SHOULD get more emergency play at the sg/sf position.

With the most recent criticisms of how Ty coached our team against Denver, it is easy for me to see how myopic (short-sighted, unable to see the big picture) you (Mu) and others are when looking at Jazz games. There were no complaints about the Jazz in the first half. No one mentioned how badly the Jazz were outmatched once Corey Brewer came in for Denver's 2nd unit. We all love Heyhay, but, Brewer came in fresh and tore him apart.

Then, as everyone on this site seems to agree, the Jazz went from a team equal to Denver to a sub-par team at the beginning of the 3rd quarter.. The Jazz starters of Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Gordan Hayward, Paul Millsap, and Al Jefferson gave away eight straight points to the Nugs. But, let's look at what happened. We started with a possession and Millsap missed on a pretty good look. Koufos rebounded, but, we played good defense and got a steal (by Foye). Then Heyhay missed an open 3pt shot and Koufos rebounded. We played good defense and Big Al got the rebound. We moved the ball around on offense, then Mo took it to the rim and was blocked by Koufos, who also got the rebound. We played good defense and Millsap got the rebound. Then, Heyhay missed another open shot and Koufos got the rebound. We played pretty good defense, but with two seconds left on the shot clock Iguadala nailed a lucky 3pt shot. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter and Denver breaks the defensive tie. Now, this is the point where
Denver is about to break lose, or, this is where the Jazz simply answer a 3-0 two minutes with a basket to make it 3-2 for the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Foye misses a desperation 3pt shot with one second left on the shot clock and Faried gets the defensive rebound. 13 seconds later Gallinari beats Heyhay to the hoop and makes a lay-up-- Foye fouls him too late to stop the shot from going in. He makes the free throw. IS THIS WHERE TY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OUT OUR STARTERS? And if Ty takes anyone out, who should it be? Mo is distributing well on offense, but no one is hitting their open shots. Mo has played solid defense so far in the 3rd quarter, so there is no reason to take him out. Foye is actually playing great defense, and, aside from missing a desperation three, he has done nothing wrong. Heyhay has missed some open looks and is getting destroyed by Denver's Gallinari/Iguadala combo. (But, Heyward is really one of our best players, so, how the hell can we take HIM out?) Millsap has completely neutralized his opponent, and, his opponent has completely neutralized Millsap. Big Al hasn't taken a shot yet in the 3rd quarter, and that MUST be confusing for someone who most every expert in NBA analysis says is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA. SO, IF TY MAKES ANY CHANGES, WHAT ARE THEY? Ty doesn't take a timeout, and Mo ends up taking another desperation 3, which misses, and 23 seconds later Iguadal beats Heyhay to the rim for a dunk-- that's eight points in a row for Denver, and they all came from Iguadala and Gallineri. Heyhay is getting burned left and right. IT'S AN 8-0 RUN 4 MINUTES INTO THE 3RD QUARTER! WHAT SHOULD TY DO?

An 8-0 run over 4 minutes is not really something any NBA coach should worry too much about. The opponents getting 8 pts in a 4 minute span is completely acceptable. What IS worth worrying about is the complete lack of scoring. And, at this point in the game, the Jazz already have their best scorers on the floor. They need a change in mind-sets, and possible personnel! At this point the Jazz players played better. Foye and Jefferson became very active offensively. They made some and missed some. But Faried abused Millsap on the offensive end. Millsap finally got to the rim and was fouled, to make two free throws, but TY decided Favors was a better matchup at PF, and pulled Millsap. This actually worked until Denver inserted Corey Brewer back into the game.

When Corey Brewer re-entered the game shortly into the 4th quarter, the Nuggets were on cruise control. Imagine the world's best janitor asked to clean up a mess with only 4 co-workers. Brewer barely did anything remarkable in the 4th quarter He just cleaned it up and made sure everyone punched the clock. Blame Ty if you want-- but, I don't think anyone on this site could have coached the Jazz more efficiently. I really think this whole "Fire Ty" campaign is complete bullshit, driven by desires that are not entirely rooted in reality. Sorry, forumotioners-- I ain't with you on this one.

Interesting. Lets point out the elephant in the room first: This entire forum is BULLSHIT. All this stuff we talk about is bullshit, all of our opinions on here are bullshit, all of our arguments our bullshit, the "better ways" to manage the team on here are bullshit. AND THAT IS THE POINT OF IT, correct?


Hey I resemble that statement!

Quite the finger pointing there guy. But one thing to point out first. It was not my petition, someone else started it, I just found it and passed it on. But for you to come on here and blast away, calling other fans and their opinions "small minds", is a bit much. Maybe come down off that horse for a second. They're opinions, nothing more, nothing less. And your opinion is no better than those "small minded" folks, no better than mine. Shoot, it isn't even better than Calgary's.

It's also very interesting that you're so serious about a petition that I have more than once pointed out that I fully well know is not going anywhere and is just a fun thing to dream about. There is no way in hell the Jazz front office is going to see it, and even if they did, there is no way in hell they would give it a second thought. And I've repeated that since it came on here.

I'm a Jazz fan, and a frustrated fan at that. If you dont like fans expressing their opinions, emotional or not, that too bad for you pally. Thats the entire point of this forum. The most interesting part of it all, is that you can come on here and tell me that I've completely lost perspective on the team that I watch every game of, and that my opinion of Burks and DC is completely WRONG. But I have news for you, if you actually do believe that Burks and DC are low talent players that dont help a team immensely, then you dont know nearly as much as you seem to think you do.

The other part of that is I NEVER said DC and Burks were the answer to all the teams woe's. I've said that Corbin should play the players that give the team the best chance to win. THAT IS ALL. I'm not making out to be more than they are. Oh, and not coincidentally, the numbers show that I am right. (and since I dont carry as much weight around here, Magnus also has felt the same.)

If you think that Burks is our fourth best option at PG, then you are coming across as someone who is not very knowledgeable of the game.
We actually say that Burks was the second best option at PG while Mo was out

Funny, lumping me into the Denver game talk. I believe all I said was "nice rotations Tyrone". That was it. But calling me shortsighted and unable to see the big picture.....hmmmm. Interesting. Somebody really needs to slow their roll, eh?

I have been consistent all year long, that there needs to be a balance to the starting and second units. Been a broken record. And since Al/Mo are two of the worst defenders going, we need IN MY OPINION, to have other good defenders on the court. Also, very few disagree that Foye is not a starting type player, that he is best suited as a hired gun off the bench. He also is not a very good defender. DC fills this roll perfectly and balance's out the first unit. And Foye coming off the bench, also balances out the 2nd unit as a scorer that is now needed with Gordon starting.
Lastly, Tinsely and Watson should never play. It's not opinion, its fact backed up by numbers, statistics, and knowledge of watching the game. It's best for the team now, in the future, and to win games if Burks plays the back up PG. Thats NOT opinion.

Very interesting that you come on here posting as if you are right in all your assessments, and everyone else is wrong. That only you can see the big picture, but I can't....very interesting.......Im sorry you are so bothered by other peoples opinions on a site developed to have opinions posted. But just because you have opinions on others, and the Jazz, doesn't mean you're right.






Honestly though saint louis, it's not cool to come on here and start name calling and shit because you don't agree with other people's opinions.

I actually went and signed the petition, because while i think it's a little pointless, I do think that Jazz management needs to know that the fans are very unhappy with the Job Corbin is doing! I can guarantee they know the petition is out there, cause I tweeted the link to Greg Miller.

The simple fact is that it's not just a few disgruntled Jazz fans that are bashing Ty. A lot of the national media is seeing it and it's being talked about in NBA circles. I listen to internet radio all day and hear it brought up pretty often.

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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:43 pm

Quote :
They're opinions, nothing more, nothing less. And your opinion is no better than those "small minded" folks, no better than mine. Shoot, it isn't even better than Calgary's.

That's funnier than shit, Mutang. That alone made this post.

Hey, guys, let's not go all Mike Tyson and start eating each other's children here. Like Mutang said, this is all just bullshitting here, none of us make any difference when it comes to the decisions that the Jazz front office make. We're all just throwing out ideas and expressing our emotions/opinions here about our beloved Jazz. If I may insert my opinion here, I think St Louis addressed Mutang because Mutang has been the most vociferous anti-Ty guy here, and there are times when the critiques have gone "over the top" a bit. I don't think it's personal. It's just that the other side of the Ty Corbin opinion meter hasn't been very well represented lately, and maybe St Louis needed to blow off a little steam. There's a lot of mutual respect here amongst our Jazznation forum posters, and a disappointing season shouldn't ruin that.

Let's celebrate the fact that there is some back-and-forth here, even about a "no-brainer" like the whole "Fire Ty Corbin" campaign. There are still a few posters here who may agree with the sentiments that we should be careful what we wish for, because a coaching change could potentially make things worse. The possibility does exist!
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:49 pm

Well, if we're going with "thoughtful, reasonable posts", I'll be over here in the corner.

Kicking kittens.

All named "Ty".
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:51 pm

Trollificus wrote:
Well, if we're going with "thoughtful, reasonable posts", I'll be over here in the corner.

Kicking kittens.

All named "Ty".

The "Hysterical Overreaction" thread just called. It's feeling lonely and is in need of attention from its creator.
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PostSubject: Re: Change.org Fire Coach T   Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:25 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
Saint Louis wrote:


....

then, as everyone on this site seems to agree, the Jazz went from a team equal to Denver to a sub-par team at the beginning of the 3rd quarter.. The Jazz starters of Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Gordan Hayward, Paul Millsap, and Al Jefferson gave away eight straight points to the Nugs. But, let's look at what happened. We started with a possession and Millsap missed on a pretty good look. Koufos rebounded, but, we played good defense and got a steal (by Foye). Then Heyhay missed an open 3pt shot and Koufos rebounded. We played good defense and Big Al got the rebound. We moved the ball around on offense, then Mo took it to the rim and was blocked by Koufos, who also got the rebound. We played good defense and Millsap got the rebound. Then, Heyhay missed another open shot and Koufos got the rebound. We played pretty good defense, but with two seconds left on the shot clock Iguadala nailed a lucky 3pt shot. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter and Denver breaks the defensive tie. Now, this is the point where
Denver is about to break lose, or, this is where the Jazz simply answer a 3-0 two minutes with a basket to make it 3-2 for the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter. Foye misses a desperation 3pt shot with one second left on the shot clock and Faried gets the defensive rebound. 13 seconds later Gallinari beats Heyhay to the hoop and makes a lay-up-- Foye fouls him too late to stop the shot from going in. He makes the free throw. IS THIS WHERE TY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OUT OUR STARTERS? And if Ty takes anyone out, who should it be? Mo is distributing well on offense, but no one is hitting their open shots. Mo has played solid defense so far in the 3rd quarter, so there is no reason to take him out. Foye is actually playing great defense, and, aside from missing a desperation three, he has done nothing wrong. Heyhay has missed some open looks and is getting destroyed by Denver's Gallinari/Iguadala combo. (But, Heyward is really one of our best players, so, how the hell can we take HIM out?) Millsap has completely neutralized his opponent, and, his opponent has completely neutralized Millsap. Big Al hasn't taken a shot yet in the 3rd quarter, and that MUST be confusing for someone who most every expert in NBA analysis says is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA. SO, IF TY MAKES ANY CHANGES, WHAT ARE THEY? Ty doesn't take a timeout, and Mo ends up taking another desperation 3, which misses, and 23 seconds later Iguadal beats Heyhay to the rim for a dunk-- that's eight points in a row for Denver, and they all came from Iguadala and Gallineri. Heyhay is getting burned left and right. IT'S AN 8-0 RUN 4 MINUTES INTO THE 3RD QUARTER! WHAT SHOULD TY DO?

...

Solid post there Saint, very solid, just had to fix a couple of factual errors for you.

1) Foye was guarding Iggy, who scored 5 of the 8 points to start the half, yet somehow Hayward is solely responsible for getting "destroyed" by the Iggy/Galo combo while Foye was "playing great D"? Don't think so.

2) At no point in the Denver game did Mo Williams play anything that resembled "good" D. It was just a matter of whether or not Andre Miller decided that he wanted to let someone else score or that he'd like to do it himself, and the 5 minutes that Fournier was against Mo it was a massacre.

3) "most every expert in NBA analysis says [Jefferson] is one of the best 15 players in the entire NBA." Um, sorry, that's not even close to being true. Here's what NBA "experts" have said about Al Jefferson this week...

Ranking the top Free agents this summer, All Jefferson is #8 behind the likes of David West, Andrew Bynum, Andre Igoudala, and Nicola Peckovic....


Quote :

How can a player with a career PER more than 20 be valued so low? First, Jefferson gets a hit for not winning. He's been paid like a franchise player, yet his teams have not achieved consistent playoff appearances. I'm not putting it all on Jefferson, but he's got to have a more positive impact on his team's win-loss percentage. Second, it's a virtual lock that he will not return to Utah, given the development of Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter.


The Jazz will seek a sign-and-trade to recoup some value for Jefferson, but if that can't get done, he'll have to sign with a team with cap space. He's a better defensive rebounder than any of the above-mentioned centers, and his low-post game, while unorthodox, is extremely effective. But he's less efficient overall from the field (he's taken 300 long 2-point attempts versus 249 at the rim), and he's a train wreck defensively. If I could pair him with a defensive-minded big and get him to improve his shot selection, he'd be a worthwhile free-agency target at four years, $40 million.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9109226/nba-top-30-free-agents-2013-ranked-average-annual-value

From a ESPN 5-on-5 responding to the question of who is more valuable, Al Jefferson, or Andrew Bynum (who may NEVER PLAY AGAIN)

Quote :

Gutierrez: Jefferson. What can you honestly expect out of Bynum, other than a certain controversy and some potential for wig sales? Jefferson has yet to elevate a team despite impressive numbers, but toss in 17 and 9 in the right system, and Jefferson could finally be an impact player on a very good team. Bynum could be the centerpiece of a good team. Or he could be a sideshow on crutches.

Han: Jefferson, even though Andrew Bynum is the better player. Bynum can absolutely be a franchise cornerstone, but carries the dreaded "if healthy" tag. And with his health concerns, his value is cloudy at best. Jefferson is a known quantity that is, in relation, quite reliable.

Herbert: Bynum. It feels forever ago now, but pre-injury Bynum was on his way to being a franchise-caliber center. Those almost never come along. Jefferson, while very skilled and certainly more reliable than Bynum, possesses defensive flaws that prevent him from being seen the same way.

Winter: Bynum. Despite his unique, old-school offensive talents as a true low post threat, Jefferson's net impact is still something close to zero. Bynum, though, presents tremendous influence on both ends as a space-eater with soft touch and great hands. Seriously alarming injury history notwithstanding, that makes him the better commodity.

Nowell: Bynum. This could blow up in my face, but if Bynum gets healthy, he's a two-way talent Jefferson can't match. Of course, if Bynum's knees never repair themselves, Jefferson is better then by default, but Bynum could still anchor a team; Jefferson is more ballast than anchor.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-130401/nba-which-2013-free-agents-more-valuable

The word is out on Jefferson, and the word isn't good.


Good response Mag. But, I've looked at the game a couple of times now. and I've re-read my post to see where something I said was misleading. You are absoultely right that HeyHay was not completely responsible for the defensive collapse on the Iggy/Gallo combo in the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter. I shouldn't have used the word "destroyed"-- I should have said, Heyhay was less effective than usual defensively. But, looking at your post, your point 1) was that Foye was guarding Iggy (not Hey)-- and, you are half right. Twice, Heyhay overplayed on defense (or, to give Denver their due) Denver ran a screen to create either a mismatch of Foye on Iggy, or Gallo for an open 3pter. Denver actually ran the play 3 times-- and, the only time we won was win Foye correctly played the passing lane and got a steal. Heyhay was very energetic during this part of the game, but, he was not playing excellent team defense-- this is something I've criticized about DC's defense (great effort, but, putting the team defense out of position).

Your point 2) about Mo never playing good defense is off-base. Mo did not have an excellent defensive (or offensive) game, but, in my post, I was talking about the first 4 minutes of the 3rd quarter. In those 4 minutes, Mo DId play good defense-- he continually denied penetration by Andre Miller, and forced Miller to make a pass that did not result in an assist by Miller. But, yes, overall, Miller did play a good game, and Mo WAS guarding him for most of the game.

Your point 3) about Big Al is pretty accurate. I was looking at numbers and evaluations that were mostly based on pre-season ratings (particularly fantasy rankings, which, I realize do not always equate to real NBA value). And, I probably over-reacted to the thread talking about the Jazz' best five players where many of our posters were not even including Big Al in our top five. Big Al is probably not one of the league's best 15 players. He is, however, one of the league's best players. Maybe not in the top 15, but, maybe in the top 50, maybe the top 75, definitely in the top 100. No matter how you look at it, he is still one of the Jazz' best players.
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