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 [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin

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PostSubject: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:20 pm

Gents, I wanted to see if you could help me out. I wrote up something ridiculously huge on the Jazz season and Ty Corbin and I was wondering if you would give it a read and tell me what you think before I throw it up on the blog. I know I can always count on you guys to give the straight dope...

Jazz 2012-2013 Season Post-Mortem Part 1: Tyrone Corbin

(NOTE: This will be the first in a series of posts where I will try to perform a complete player by player, plus Coach, review of the Jazz 2012-2013 season.)

Ty Corbin is one of the most controversial figures in the Utah Jazz organization right now, and rightfully so. After a disappointing season full of head-scratching moments the question of “How did this happen?” has to start with the coach.

Let’s start with the objective and a bit of history. Corbin is not a terribly young coach at 51 years of age, but he is young in experience. His coaching resume is as follows…

Player Development Coach in the D-Leauge: 2001-2003

Player Development Manager for the Knicks: 2003-2004

Assistant Coach (various roles) for the Jazz: 2004-2011

That’s it. He was never even a 1st assistant to Jerry Sloan, and as far as I can tell he never actually coached a single minute of a single NBA game before Jerry Sloan and Phil Johnson walked away in 2011.

In 2011 he assumed the role of head coach from Hall of Fame Legend Jerry Sloan for the first time in the 55th game of the 2011-2012 season. A little over one week later, after only 3 games as head coach, Deron Williams was traded to the Nets for Devin Harris and Derrick Favors. After finishing the season 8-20 as a head coach the NBA Corbin helped the Jazz select Enes Kanter and Alec Burks in the first round, one week later the NBA Locked out the players. The end of the lockout brought on a compressed offseason which saw the Jazz letting Andrei Kirilenko, Kyrylo Fesenko, Fransisco Elson, and Ronnie Price go, trading Mehmet Okur, and signing Jamaal Tinsley, Demarre Carroll, and Josh Howard. With 7 new players, only 1 player that had been with the team more than 2 years, and 6 players with less than 2 years of NBA experience, Corbin had less than two weeks of training camp to prepare the team for a compressed 66 game season. That season saw the Jazz go 36-30, largely due to an inspired late season push, and make the playoffs only to be swept convincingly by the Spurs.

It is hard for me to imagine a more difficult set of circumstances for a first time coach to be put under than what I just described. The fact that they even made the playoffs in 2012 is quite impressive when you factor everything together. Regardless of whatever specific disagreements I have with his coaching, Corbin deserves some credit for that success, and bonus points for doing it under such difficult circumstances.

With that as the background, let’s talk specifics about this season. I believe that Coaches control (or attempt to control) the way their team plays in 4 ways, schemes, rotations, game management, and intangibles, so let’s break it down in those terms.

Schemes

Offensively the Jazz were average overall this season. They finished tied for 11th in the NBA in offensive efficiency but their 103.6 rating was just above the league average of 103.1. The season started with the Jazz making a big deal of playing an “up-tempo” style and pushing the ball more in transition. That never really seemed to materialize as the Jazz finished 20th in the league in pace, and 10th in the league in fast break points. The Jazz were an average shooting team, but were above average on the offensive glass. They finished 12th in the league in assists.

There are still some vestiges of the Flex offense remaining, but they have been heavily modified to center around the post-game of Al Jefferson, often the Flex action seemed to be merely just a fancy way to get the get the ball in the hands of Jefferson on the left block. The screens were soft, if they happened at all, the mid-range jumper off the pin down on the weak side seemed to disappear, the hard crossing action that often left guys open on the baseline for some reason didn’t seem to work anymore, and once the ball hit the hands of Jefferson everybody seemed to just kind of stand and wait to see what happened next. There was less standing around when Jefferson was out of the game but the execution didn’t really improve. Over the course of the season the “Flex” seemed to further devolve from a scheme to merely a play that the team called out and ran, predictably, and overused so badly as the season wore on that a starting (with Mo or Tinsley, Foye, Marvin, Millsap, Jefferson) unit who’s strength should have been its ability to score posted a sub-100 offensive efficiency rating (we’ll come back to this when we talk about rotations, but sub-100 is horrifically bad, especially for a unit that couldn’t defend) and routinely dug large holes for the team to start each half.

One of the things that happened with this strategy is that the Jazz wings, especially the SF, really became fence posts, stuck on the weak side waiting for a pass so they could have the opportunity to shoot. From the start of the season whoever was asked to play there suddenly and mysteriously went into a “slump”. First it was Hayward who’s season took off as soon as he was moved to the bench, then it was Foye and Marvin, then it was Millsap with the “big 3” lineup, then Demarre, all of them facing the same type of “slump” after being put in the starting lineup. Nobody suffered more from this effect than Marvin Williams, who turned in what was by far the worst season of his pro career. I would go so far as to argue that this scheme was the primary driver that made Corbin’s rotational decisions look like a comedy of errors (more on that in a minute). The offense was built around the point guard and the post, and if you had Jefferson and Millsap out there it didn’t really matter who you put in the other 3 spots the roles and the issues would be the same. While this sounds like a terrible indictment of Corbin’s scheme (and I guess it mostly is), we should remember that it was this is the very same scheme that allowed Jefferson and Millsap to carry the Jazz to unexpected success last year.

This strategy was adjusted in the last few weeks of the season after Mo Williams and Hayward were re-inserted into the starting lineup in favor of a more free flowing offense heavy on Hayward and Mo pick and roll action(reminded me a bit of the Spurs). This created better looks for everybody and distributed the ball better, but the team still seemed to regularly fall into bad habits and began shooting significantly more jump shots. Shooting a quick three without several passes or the ball going into the paint first used to be a quick way to get a rest from Jerry Sloan, not so any more. Thanks in large part to those late season adjustments the Jazz destroyed all of the franchise 3pt shooting records this season and were a top 10 team in the NBA in 3pt shooting percentage (36%). Jazz were still bottom 3 in the NBA in 3pt attempts on the season, but over the last 10 games of the season the Jazz attempted a near league average 19 threes a game. These adjustments corresponded to a large improvement in offensive efficiency, but the improvement was mostly due to improved jump shooting so it is difficult to tell if that is really sustainable or if it is just a small sample size anomaly.

Defensively the Jazz were below average again this season. They finished 21st in the NBA in defensive efficiency with a 104.3 rating that was more than a point worse than the league average of 103.1. The numbers bear out a lot of the problems we saw this season. The Jazz have carried over probably the worst feature of Jerry Sloan’s defensive schemes, fouling, but that is really where the similarities end. The Jazz allow the 7th fewest 3pt shots in the NBA, but are 7th worst in the league in opponents 3pt percentage, and they were bottom 10 in points allowed in the paint.

Zach Lowe at Grantland.com wrote an outstanding piece on the Jazz defensive woes, specifically their deficiencies against the pick-and-roll, and those problems were never really corrected. The Jazz overall scheme was to force opposing teams away from the middle of the floor and towards the sideline and baseline at all times. There’s nothing wrong with that, in fact it is the prevailing strategy in the NBA, and it helped the Jazz to better defend the 3pt line, especially the corner 3, which was a huge problem for them under Jerry Sloans force-middle scheme. But whatever Corbin’s overall schemes and emphasis were they never really seemed to be owned by the team as a whole, they talked a lot about improving the defense, but improvements were never sustained.

There are valid points to be made about how much scheming can overcome the deficiencies of personnel, especially when there are so many personnel with deficiencies, but I think one thing that becomes a common theme when you look at the challenges the Jazz had both offensively and defensively is a complete lack of identity. Were they an “up-tempo” team or do they grind it out? Were they a Jefferson centered team? Or ball handler centric team? Did they play D to shut you down and grind it out, or just to get you to shoot so they could bring it back at you? Do they give it to Al when they need a bucket? Or do they give it to Mo, or Hayward? It just never felt like they figured it out, right up to the last game of the season we never really knew what kind of Jazz team we were going to see out on the court? Injury’s play a role there, and maybe part of this is being used to having a Coach and team for so long that never struggled with identity, but this kind of lack of discipline and identity has fall to the coach at the end of the day.

Rotations

Coach Corbin’s rotations are probably the area where he has drawn the most heat this season from fans and “experts” alike, and you don’t have dig far to find reasons why.

The first stop is any simple box score stats page. If you sort the team by “Minutes Played Per Game” this is what you will see (from basketball-reference.com)…



The first problem that jumps off the page is that 23 year old Gordon Hayward, who was hands down the Jazz most effective wing by any measure, ALL season, averaged less than 30 minutes a game. The second is that Alec Burks, Demarre Carroll, Enes Kanter, and Jeremy Evans were #’s 9, 11, 12 and 13 in minutes played per game.
Now remember that as you look at this table from 82games.com…



And it’s not like these are just numbers skewed by small sample size. Kanter, Hayward, and Carroll performed at consistently high levels all year, and Evans has been putting up the same ridiculous numbers in limited minutes for 3 years now. As I mentioned above it was readily apparent during games and even more apparent in the numbers that all too often the wings seemed to disappear on the court, this was especially true of the veterans who were often contributing little on either end of the court, while these young players would at the very least bring energy and effort at every opportunity, yet Corbin persistently and consistently chose to play the veterans most of the minutes for most of the season. There are legitimate reasons for playing veterans over young players, and some of those reasons definitely apply here, but given the vast disparity in production between the guys that got the minutes and the guys that didn’t I think whatever reasons there may have been need to be called into question.
The starting lineups that the Jazz used for half of the season featuring either Mo or Jamaal at the point with Randy, Marvin, Paul, and Al were two of the worst lineup’s the Jazz had this season, playing well below the team average both offensively and defensively, and they were used more than twice as much as any other lineup the Jazz had. Here’s a chart of the eight starting lineups that were used more than once…



It is interesting to note that some of the Jazz most effective two person combinations were never used in any of the Jazz fifteen different starting lineups, the most notable being Carroll and Hayward on the wings (+9), Carroll and Burks on the wings (+8.1), and Burks at the point with Foye at SG (+18). Those pairs all played significant minutes together, but as I noted above they may not have fared much better than any of the above combinations in a starting role. Perhaps something closer to the real issue is this chart suggesting that the Jazz best combinations of bigs may have been badly underused...



Now, on a team as deep with good players as this Jazz team was it would be expected that some of your second units would appear to be better than your first units, simply because they get to beat up on other team’s second units. Still, these numbers indicate that the Jazz starting units were almost universally terrible and that non-starting units did almost all of the heavy lifting for this team.
One of the most disturbing things about Corbin’s rotations is that this is the second year in a row that he has deliberately and stubbornly stuck with ineffective veterans even after young players repeatedly demonstrated the potential to positively impact games, really only making significant changes and give opportunities to younger players when he was forced to by injuries. There was a great piece from moni at jazzfanatical.wordpress.com early in the year on Corbin’s personal feelings on these rotational decisions when he was a player and it seems pretty clear that his experiences influence his decisions in these matters, because there is really no other good explanation.

Game Management

Game management is an interesting thing, because if you talk to five different coaches you are probably going to get five very different philosophies of game management. Modern statistical analysis has suggested that much of the common assumptions that have been used by coaches and players for decades to manage games (like riding the “hot hand”) do not have any measureable effect on the outcome, and some of them (like calling timeouts to set up offensive plays) can actually be harmful to team performance. Other relatively new concepts, like managing 2-for-1 opportunities at the end of quarters, have become trendy among players and coaches.

Corbins in game clock management bears a strong resemblance to his predecessor and mentor Jerry Sloan, though not quite with the consistency that Sloan was known for. He does not appear to like to call timeouts in order to try and sway momentum unless he really feels the game is getting out of hand, instead preferring to let the players try and play through it. He does not manage for extra possessions or 2-for-1 opportunities, instead preferring to run the offense regardless of the situation. He always prefers to call timeouts to set up plays, and for the most part those plays were not successful, especially with less than 5 seconds on the clock. To me this is a clear area where Corbin needs improvement, but I don’t think it has a huge impact on the teams overall performance or record, and I think it is something that he will naturally learn and improve on as both he and his players gain experience.

I know this may be slightly controversial, and it is largely subjective, but I felt that this season Corbin’s in game strategic adjustments were his second strongest area as a coach. I remember numerous times being very impressed with the adjustments that he made in games. The first example I can recall is when he put Gordon Hayward on Chris Paul in the 4th quarter against the Clippers, a strategy that he would come back to against other elite PG’s. The zone was used in a much more judicious way than it was last year and was actually somewhat successful at times. Corbin usually let the guards call the plays, but from my perspective when plays were called in from the bench they were almost always well calculated and successful. When Corbin got really creative was when I thought he was at his best, mixing and matching personnel to create mismatches by going either super small (Millsap at Center) or big (Hayward at point) and attacking the matchups, unfortunately these kinds of moments of brilliance seemed painfully infrequent and were usually precipitated by injuries. You can say that Corbin had to be forced to do something smart, but you can’t take away the fact that in those situations more often than not he seems to do really smart things. That of course begs the question of why he seemed to make so many wrong choices with his rotations when he had all of the time in the world to think about them.

Intangibles

Intangibles mean different things to different people, and not every great coach is going to bring the same set of intangibles (ex: Jerry Sloan vs. Phil Jackson), but the end product is always respect, unity, and effort and effort on the court. To me this is hands down the strongest coaching skill Corbin displays in his still young coaching career.

Through the last two seasons Corbin has shown a remarkable ability to keep respect with his players, often seemingly in spite of himself. The first evidence of this came last year towards the end of the season when Corbin benched Raja Bell. The team had come together and was playing its best ball of the season. Bell returned from an injury to find himself buried at the end of the bench and immediately began voicing his displeasure. Corbin handled the Bell situation with conviction and sent a clear message by effectively banishing him from the team for the last year of his contract.

I went over the incredibly difficult circumstances of Corbin’s first year and a half of coaching, and this year had its own share of unique circumstances, but to me there is really a singular example that exemplifies Corbin’s intangibles.

In March the Jazz were in a downward spiral. Millsap and Jefferson had both suffered injuries, Mo Williams had returned after being out for over 2 months and had not yet regained his form, and the Jazz were losing games, lots of them, so many games that they had dropped themselves from 6th place at the All-Star Break to a tie for 10th place. After getting swept on a 4 game eastern conference road trip and losing at home to a depleted Knicks team pretty much every fan, pundit and expert declared the Jazz dead. The wheels had fallen off. The players later admitted that they were starting to feel and play “selfish”, and it is not hard to see how that could happen given the potentially toxic combination of a team comprised almost entirely of young players with legitimate cases for earning more minutes and veterans playing for new contracts. Corbin wasn’t done though. He retooled the offense, adjusted the rotations, and convinced the players not to quit on him or each other and then took the team on the road to Texas were they got swept in three games against three playoff contenders. Now they were really done. Broken. Failed. Everybody thought it, everybody said it…Except Tyrone Corbin and his players. They responded by winning 9 of their last 12 games, including 3 of 4 on the road, playing some of their best basketball of the season and pushing their chances of making the playoffs to the very last day. I’m not sure it is possible for me to overstate how impressive that is, but I can say that on March 24th I thought (along with pretty much everybody else) that such a thing was nearly impossible. Mentally, with everything else the team had going on and having lost in so often and in so many different ways, I didn’t see any way for them to recover from that. Equally impressive is that even in the downward spiral the players never, not even once, said or did anything on or off the court that indicated they had lost respect for their coach or that he had lost their attention.

Summary

The Jazz front office has declared that Tyrone Corbin will be the Jazz coach for the 2013-2014 season continuing their pattern of thumbing their nose at NBA norms. Everybody else is stripping down rosters and tanking their way to relevance…screw that, we’re gonna rent a bunch of vets and compete for the playoffs while we simultaneously try and develop young talent. Everybody else is hiring and firing coaches every other year if they don’t produce regardless of the crappy rosters they are handed…nah, we’re gonna promote an inexperienced guy from within and train him on the job for at least 3 years. These are things that make me love being a Jazz fan.

Overall when I am grading Coach Corbin’s season I see much to be concerned about, but I also see reasons for encouragement. It is concerning that Corbin’s philosophies and schemes often seem to be well adjusted for only a few of his players. It’s concerning that Corbin seems to stick doggedly to things that aren't working and quickly abandon things that could or are. It’s concerning that he seems to overvalue the contributions of veterans and undervalue the contributions of less experienced players. It’s concerning that his schemes seem to lack cohesion and consistency. But these are all fixable problems, things that can be taught or learned by experience.

I’m a big believer that the one thing that made Jerry Sloan a great coach more than any other thing was his intangible ability to lead a team. Regardless of whatever failings he may have had as a strategist they were never greater than his ability to get his teams to play together, play hard, and do so with his characteristic toughness. That was his calling card, and for fans and foes of the Jazz those became the defining characteristics of Jazz basketball. Though he is not and never will be Jerry Sloan (for better and worse), and his teams often seem to play the opposite of what I consider “Jazz basketball”, I see some of the same intangibles in Coach Corbin as I did in Sloan, and I think as long as he has the ability to keep his players working together and playing hard as he learns to do a very difficult job I can support him as the coach of the team. The odds are fairly high that the team that comes to camp next season will be vastly different than the one we had this season, and I think that can only make Corbin’s job easier, and I think all Jazz fans can agree that there would be nothing better than seeing Corbin claim redemption next year by leading the Jazz back to the playoffs.

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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:02 am

It's too long, isn't it.

You don't even have to say it, I can feel you thinking it....
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:30 pm

TheMagnus wrote:


Ty Corbin is one of the most controversial figures in the Utah Jazz organization right now

The only place Tyrone Corbin is even remotely controversial is in the blogosphere, where angry armchair fans demand a lot but rarely give specifics to lend their angst even the slightest bit of credibility.



TheMagnus wrote:
Player Development Coach in the D-Leauge: 2001-2003

Player Development Manager for the Knicks: 2003-2004

Assistant Coach (various roles) for the Jazz: 2004-2011

Player development is clearly his brightest spot; I'd focus in a bit more here by adding how he turned Alec Burks into a reasonable bench option from basically a 12th pick bust chucker in the mold of Morris Almond.

TheMagnus wrote:
That’s it. He was never even a 1st assistant to Jerry Sloan, and as far as I can tell he never actually coached a single minute of a single NBA game before Jerry Sloan and Phil Johnson walked away in 2011.

This hints at the great blogosphere self contradiction of 2013: Fire Ty b/c he never coached before, and Fire Ty b/c he doesn't play the unproven (and unproductive) rookies.







TheMagnus wrote:
Schemes

There are still some vestiges of the Flex offense remaining, but they have been heavily modified to center around the post-game of Al Jefferson, often the Flex action seemed to be merely just a fancy way to get the get the ball in the hands of Jefferson on the left block. The screens were soft, if they happened at all, the mid-range jumper off the pin down on the weak side seemed to disappear, the hard crossing action that often left guys open on the baseline for some reason didn’t seem to work anymore, and once the ball hit the hands of Jefferson everybody seemed to just kind of stand and wait to see what happened next. There was less standing around when Jefferson was out of the game but the execution didn’t really improve. Over the course of the season the “Flex” seemed to further devolve from a scheme to merely a play that the team called out and ran, predictably, and overused so badly as the season wore on that a starting (with Mo or Tinsley, Foye, Marvin, Millsap, Jefferson) unit who’s strength should have been its ability to score posted a sub-100 offensive efficiency rating (we’ll come back to this when we talk about rotations, but sub-100 is horrifically bad, especially for a unit that couldn’t defend) and routinely dug large holes for the team to start each half.

The Jazz haven't really Flex'd since Deron left, which should be a testament to Corbin's excellent ability to adjust based on the talent he has (or lack thereof).

The Jefferson post play you mentioned has a special place of resentment amongst Jazz fans, but it's far from unique to Corbin. Every coach in the league with a dominant big runs this play, where the post gets the ball and 4 guys surround the weak side arc. Phil Jackson, Doc Rivers, Greg Poppovich, Pat Riley... all the great coaches ran it.

Corbin did a lot to bring along Hayward's pnr game, and Kanter and Favors high and low post games. Success there was less than efficient, but huge improvements could be seen.

Corbin runs more of a modern hybrid set play-motion offense. Again, this is testament to his willingness to mold the offense around his talent (or lack thereof). In today's NBA, defenses are too good at adjusting to Flex, Triangle, etc., which is why teams rely on sheer talent to will their way to victory. Unfortunately, Tyrone doesn't have the luxury of athletic scoring wings or SF, so he had to run sets that weren't going to have optimal success. It's like we're asking someone that's been hog tied to run a marathon in 48 minutes or less.

Corbin's motion following set play breakdown was a nightmare to watch. The only competent player was Mo Williams, a big NO THANK YOU to his heroics.

Corbin chose to go crash the glass rather than space the floor like a Poppovich team would. Here you'll find my main criticism of taking this approach with this team. It's a pick your poison strategy: higher assists or higher boards. I don't think this team was efficient enough at scoring or rebounding to pick the rebounding option.



I'm not even touching your defensive points. They're all speculation and conjecture regarding player competence theory but didn't say anything about actual defensive schemes or what might have worked better.

Bottom line is the Jazz played three groups of defenders, mostly either atrocious or neutering on the other end of the floor. Group A: Tinsley, Jefferson, and Foye were all incompetent. Group B: Burks, Favors, Kanter all have the ability but make enormous mistakes very frequently (especially Derrick Favors). Group C: Marvin and DeMarre. Both excellent defenders in their own style. But they're a little too one way to run all the time.


TheMagnus wrote:
Rotations
The first problem that jumps off the page is that 23 year old Gordon Hayward, who was hands down the Jazz most effective wing by any measure, ALL season, averaged less than 30 minutes a game. The second is that Alec Burks, Demarre Carroll, Enes Kanter, and Jeremy Evans were #’s 9, 11, 12 and 13 in minutes played per game.
Now remember that as you look at this table from 82games.com…


LOL. "Play the Rookies" will forever be an armchair favorite.

Alec Burks only deserves minutes if you live inside the Utah Jazz fan bubble. Kanter was very raw beginning the season and his improvements are creating undue confirmation bias. Kanter doesn't play much more on any other similarly built team in the NBA. Carroll, yeah, he earned more minutes and was given them.



I give you a C+ overall because you made the appearance of being fair. However, this was so generic Jazz fan and wordy that it did little than cater to those who need reaffirmation of their shallow fanviews.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:54 pm

Professo_Sloan wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:


Ty Corbin is one of the most controversial figures in the Utah Jazz organization right now

The only place Tyrone Corbin is even remotely controversial is in the blogosphere, where angry armchair fans demand a lot but rarely give specifics to lend their angst even the slightest bit of credibility.



TheMagnus wrote:
Player Development Coach in the D-Leauge: 2001-2003

Player Development Manager for the Knicks: 2003-2004

Assistant Coach (various roles) for the Jazz: 2004-2011

Player development is clearly his brightest spot; I'd focus in a bit more here by adding how he turned Alec Burks into a reasonable bench option from basically a 12th pick bust chucker in the mold of Morris Almond.

TheMagnus wrote:
That’s it. He was never even a 1st assistant to Jerry Sloan, and as far as I can tell he never actually coached a single minute of a single NBA game before Jerry Sloan and Phil Johnson walked away in 2011.

This hints at the great blogosphere self contradiction of 2013: Fire Ty b/c he never coached before, and Fire Ty b/c he doesn't play the unproven (and unproductive) rookies.







TheMagnus wrote:
Schemes

There are still some vestiges of the Flex offense remaining, but they have been heavily modified to center around the post-game of Al Jefferson, often the Flex action seemed to be merely just a fancy way to get the get the ball in the hands of Jefferson on the left block. The screens were soft, if they happened at all, the mid-range jumper off the pin down on the weak side seemed to disappear, the hard crossing action that often left guys open on the baseline for some reason didn’t seem to work anymore, and once the ball hit the hands of Jefferson everybody seemed to just kind of stand and wait to see what happened next. There was less standing around when Jefferson was out of the game but the execution didn’t really improve. Over the course of the season the “Flex” seemed to further devolve from a scheme to merely a play that the team called out and ran, predictably, and overused so badly as the season wore on that a starting (with Mo or Tinsley, Foye, Marvin, Millsap, Jefferson) unit who’s strength should have been its ability to score posted a sub-100 offensive efficiency rating (we’ll come back to this when we talk about rotations, but sub-100 is horrifically bad, especially for a unit that couldn’t defend) and routinely dug large holes for the team to start each half.

The Jazz haven't really Flex'd since Deron left, which should be a testament to Corbin's excellent ability to adjust based on the talent he has (or lack thereof).

The Jefferson post play you mentioned has a special place of resentment amongst Jazz fans, but it's far from unique to Corbin. Every coach in the league with a dominant big runs this play, where the post gets the ball and 4 guys surround the weak side arc. Phil Jackson, Doc Rivers, Greg Poppovich, Pat Riley... all the great coaches ran it.

Corbin did a lot to bring along Hayward's pnr game, and Kanter and Favors high and low post games. Success there was less than efficient, but huge improvements could be seen.

Corbin runs more of a modern hybrid set play-motion offense. Again, this is testament to his willingness to mold the offense around his talent (or lack thereof). In today's NBA, defenses are too good at adjusting to Flex, Triangle, etc., which is why teams rely on sheer talent to will their way to victory. Unfortunately, Tyrone doesn't have the luxury of athletic scoring wings or SF, so he had to run sets that weren't going to have optimal success. It's like we're asking someone that's been hog tied to run a marathon in 48 minutes or less.

Corbin's motion following set play breakdown was a nightmare to watch. The only competent player was Mo Williams, a big NO THANK YOU to his heroics.

Corbin chose to go crash the glass rather than space the floor like a Poppovich team would. Here you'll find my main criticism of taking this approach with this team. It's a pick your poison strategy: higher assists or higher boards. I don't think this team was efficient enough at scoring or rebounding to pick the rebounding option.



I'm not even touching your defensive points. They're all speculation and conjecture regarding player competence theory but didn't say anything about actual defensive schemes or what might have worked better.

Bottom line is the Jazz played three groups of defenders, mostly either atrocious or neutering on the other end of the floor. Group A: Tinsley, Jefferson, and Foye were all incompetent. Group B: Burks, Favors, Kanter all have the ability but make enormous mistakes very frequently (especially Derrick Favors). Group C: Marvin and DeMarre. Both excellent defenders in their own style. But they're a little too one way to run all the time.


TheMagnus wrote:
Rotations
The first problem that jumps off the page is that 23 year old Gordon Hayward, who was hands down the Jazz most effective wing by any measure, ALL season, averaged less than 30 minutes a game. The second is that Alec Burks, Demarre Carroll, Enes Kanter, and Jeremy Evans were #’s 9, 11, 12 and 13 in minutes played per game.
Now remember that as you look at this table from 82games.com…


LOL. "Play the Rookies" will forever be an armchair favorite.

Alec Burks only deserves minutes if you live inside the Utah Jazz fan bubble. Kanter was very raw beginning the season and his improvements are creating undue confirmation bias. Kanter doesn't play much more on any other similarly built team in the NBA. Carroll, yeah, he earned more minutes and was given them.



I give you a C+ overall because you made the appearance of being fair. However, this was so generic Jazz fan and wordy that it did little than cater to those who need reaffirmation of their shallow fanviews.

Fair enough, and thanks for your feedback. Point taken on the wordiness, and while it was intended to address a lot of the popular narratives, whether or not is was an affirmation would depend entirely on your own point of view.

I really like some of what you said here and you made some good points. At the same time you also make a couple that seemed a little off base. Your disdain for "fanview" is noted, it seems to me that perhaps we are both at least partially stuck inside the "fan bubble". Many of my references were from national sources, all of the numbers were from national sources, and I can assure you the opinions given are my own. I would encourage you to follow the link to the Grantland piece on the Jazz defense, it is very well done and I didn't want to re-hash it.

"Play the rookies" is hardly "armchair quarterbacking" when every metric, number, anecdote, and EYEBALL tells the same story. This is also not just a Jazz fan narrative, it is a national narrative, and it is the primary reason that most national, professional, NBA pundits and writers thought that Corbin should be fired.

You can LOL it all you want, but the cold hard fact is that only truly UNPRODUCTIVE guys on the roster were every veteran not named Al or Paul and the ones that didn't play. I also don't think Crash-the-Glass and Spread-the-Floor are mutually exclusive. Usually the decision to crash the glass or not has more to do with Defensive strategy than offensive, and spreading the floor can actually improve offensive rebounding if you have bigs that can do it and wings that will attack it.

Here's an honest question for you, how is Corbin's "Hybrid-set play scheme" (which is possibly the least modern scheme in basketball) a "testament to his ability to mold his schemes around his talent"? It is pretty clear that the sum of the parts on all of the various starting units were less than the whole, wouldn't a scheme that was molded to the talent he had produce better results than well below league average offense? Wouldn't it also help his players produce at levels at or above their career averages? Perhaps I am missing what you actually talking about there, but I see no evidence that Corbin's schemes helped the players he played the most to succeed offensively throughout the season. I did say that he made some good adjustments late in the season, which you also alluded to, perhaps that is what you were referring to?





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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:53 pm

TheMagnus wrote:

Fair enough, and thanks for your feedback. Point taken on the wordiness, and while it was intended to address a lot of the popular narratives, whether or not is was an affirmation would depend entirely on your own point of view.

Glad you took it in good spirit considering the format you are publishing for and critique request.

The wordiness isn't necessarily an issue as your stuff seemed to fit the popular format at jazzfanatical, slcdunk, grantland, SI, etc. It's about who you want to target. I'm not much of a capitalist as I care less about the fanfare and money and more about wasting energy on intellectual discussion. Dorky, I know.

TheMagnus wrote:
I really like some of what you said here and you made some good points. At the same time you also make a couple that seemed a little off base. Your disdain for "fanview" is noted, it seems to me that perhaps we are both at least partially stuck inside the "fan bubble". Many of my references were from national sources, all of the numbers were from national sources, and I can assure you the opinions given are my own. I would encourage you to follow the link to the Grantland piece on the Jazz defense, it is very well done and I didn't want to re-hash it.

There's no disdain at all, just pure, bonerific selfishness. Trust me, there are plenty other sites for the typical fan view. They are welcome to theirs, but it's not for me.

Grantland on Jazz D (assuming it's the same article). Yeah, Corbin shouldn't have flashed high in pick and roll. The pictures were great, but they left out one thing. Grantland's focus was on Al Jefferson hate without paying attention to how badly Derrick Favors tends to guard the pick. The flash high was attributed to Jefferson only, but Favors does it just as bad if not worse. Now, I'm more than willing to loft that up as a critique of Corbin. Favors gets a pass though; don't need any hate mail over a critique of him.

TheMagnus wrote:
"Play the rookies" is hardly "armchair quarterbacking" when every metric, number, anecdote, and EYEBALL tells the same story. This is also not just a Jazz fan narrative, it is a national narrative, and it is the primary reason that most national, professional, NBA pundits and writers thought that Corbin should be fired.

A national narrative whose job it is to gain fan support? Hardly convincing. "Every metric" is never adjusted for opponent, as we can't feasibly do so. "Anecdote[al]" evidence tells me Burks sucked at the beginning, Favors made huge mistakes and was raw, and Kanter needed time to grow as any young foreigner who picked up ball at a late stage and had no consistent competition would be expected to. "EYEBALL, eh, that's so fannish.

That's just YOUR list. Let's not forget that Corbin had a lockerroom to manage and expiring contracts who need a big paycheck next season. What happens when you piss off Millsap and Jefferson, costing them $8,10 million over the next four years, all while losing games to develop the next group chasing them up the hill? No, this wasn't about Ty Corbin. It was the timeless battle of vets versus youth.

TheMagnus wrote:
I also don't think Crash-the-Glass and Spread-the-Floor are mutually exclusive.

Not that I disagree, but don't think you understood what I meant. Corbin likes wings to bear down into the paint on certain plays instead of Bruce Bowening it in the corner. It's a strategy play that every offense decides to run on some part of that continuum.



TheMagnus wrote:
Here's an honest question for you, how is Corbin's "Hybrid-set play scheme" (which is possibly the least modern scheme in basketball) a "testament to his ability to mold his schemes around his talent"? It is pretty clear that the sum of the parts on all of the various starting units were less than the whole, wouldn't a scheme that was molded to the talent he had produce better results than well below league average offense?

First off, you're starting with a fallacy by stating something that isn't fact as if it is, and then building on that faulty foundation.

What scheme(s) do you think would work better?

Also, every modern offenses run various portions of the established offenses plus sets from the new ones. Flex etc. is more suited for high schoolers, as the pros know pretty much every offense and aren't fooled by simple tricks like going back door.

Finally, I wasn't a fan of the product on the floor last year (talking vets). They were all way too limited to run anything advanced (esp w/ only 1 year to implement it) and hope it somehow come together enough to fool the Allstars of the league. That's partially why I preferred a player dump toward the beginning of last season and a true rebuild from scratch rather than cranking mileage out of an old Pinto hoping it would get you through a couple more years.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:45 pm

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:
Here's an honest question for you, how is Corbin's "Hybrid-set play scheme" (which is possibly the least modern scheme in basketball) a "testament to his ability to mold his schemes around his talent"? It is pretty clear that the sum of the parts on all of the various starting units were less than the whole, wouldn't a scheme that was molded to the talent he had produce better results than well below league average offense?

First off, you're starting with a fallacy by stating something that isn't fact as if it is, and then building on that faulty foundation.

What scheme(s) do you think would work better?

Also, every modern offenses run various portions of the established offenses plus sets from the new ones. Flex etc. is more suited for high schoolers, as the pros know pretty much every offense and aren't fooled by simple tricks like going back door.

Finally, I wasn't a fan of the product on the floor last year (talking vets). They were all way too limited to run anything advanced (esp w/ only 1 year to implement it) and hope it somehow come together enough to fool the Allstars of the league. That's partially why I preferred a player dump toward the beginning of last season and a true rebuild from scratch rather than cranking mileage out of an old Pinto hoping it would get you through a couple more years.

What was the fallacy?

I think Corbin showed us what scheme would work better in flashes this season. When the offense was less Jefferson centric, when it was more up tempo, when it utilized the strenghts of Mo and Hayward to create from the perimeter and in transition, when it ran more plays that involved more players earlier in the shot clock, when the focus was hitting Jefferson and Millsap moving towards the basket rather than just dumping it in to the post, whether through pick and roll or through good cutting and swinging action off the high post pivot, the offense looked and performed much better when those things were happening. The second unit did it most of the year because their wasn't the need to dump it in to the post or wait for everybody to get set up every possession, and the result was a group of players that is much less polished and much less skilled offensively actually out performed the more skilled and experienced first unit.

I think that is both a compliment and an indictment to the job Corbin did this year, and it is what I was trying to get across in the piece (though I don't think I did it very well). I don't think Corbins schemes are all bad, and he clearly had good intentions and made adjustments that I think were absolutely correct, but the biggest parts of the schemes, and the parts that were used the most often, were the least effective of almost anything he tried.

His attempt to turn Marvin into a spot up shooter standing 25 feet away from the basket on the weak side was, I think, one of his most dismal failures. Foye is fine in that role, but that was not and never will be Marvin's game, and the fact that it took 3/4 of the season for Corbin to recognize and correct that mistake was very disappointing. Corbin should have adjusted his schemes to involve Hayward in the offense more early in the season rather than moving him to the bench to get him more touches, this became even more apparent after Mo went down. He should have moved Marvin to the bench earlier in the season (or even before it) so he could play at a higher pace and have more opportunity to play a bigger role. He should have used Demarre Carroll more often in place of Marvin and Foye, especially when the latter two were dragging ass, and he should have given Burks a heavier role at PG when Mo was out, pushing Watson to the end of the bench were he belonged. That's all 20/20 hindsight, and I will definitely acknowledge that some of those moves seems perfectly reasonable at the time, but in hindsight I don't think you can qualify any of those things as anything but mistakes, hopefully mistakes that he learns from.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:02 pm

TheMagnus wrote:


His attempt to turn Marvin into a spot up shooter standing 25 feet away from the basket on the weak side was, I think, one of his most dismal failures. Foye is fine in that role, but that was not and never will be Marvin's game, and the fact that it took 3/4 of the season for Corbin to recognize and correct that mistake was very disappointing. Corbin should have adjusted his schemes to involve Hayward in the offense more early in the season rather than moving him to the bench to get him more touches, this became even more apparent after Mo went down. He should have moved Marvin to the bench earlier in the season (or even before it) so he could play at a higher pace and have more opportunity to play a bigger role. He should have used Demarre Carroll more often in place of Marvin and Foye, especially when the latter two were dragging ass, and he should have given Burks a heavier role at PG when Mo was out, pushing Watson to the end of the bench were he belonged. That's all 20/20 hindsight, and I will definitely acknowledge that some of those moves seems perfectly reasonable at the time, but in hindsight I don't think you can qualify any of those things as anything but mistakes, hopefully mistakes that he learns from.

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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:56 pm

Bottom line here is the jazz resign Al and Paul it tells me they dont have faith in Enes or Favor moving forward and one if not both will be traded for players and picks and will hope to make the playoffs at best. Or look at signing them back cheap as only a back up which is imposable with Al. Not a starting role but i dont see paul or Al happy with that role? I think Jazz front office rolls the dices next year with draft picks free agents and seeing what they have next year before the blow the whole thing up like i keep hearing people talk about.I think they have a plan and its not blowing things up on a bunch of young guys we have here.When is that tomic kid gonna be coming over? I keep hearing he had a pretty good year? 7.4 we may pick big draft pick and pg sign couple FA and call it good?
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:25 pm

How bout a non-populist response to set this place apart.

TheMagnus wrote:
What was the fallacy?

I think Corbin showed us what scheme would work better in flashes this season. When the offense was less Jefferson centric, when it was more up tempo, when it utilized the strenghts of Mo and Hayward to create from the perimeter and in transition, when it ran more plays that involved more players earlier in the shot clock, when the focus was hitting Jefferson and Millsap moving towards the basket rather than just dumping it in to the post, whether through pick and roll or through good cutting and swinging action off the high post pivot, the offense looked and performed much better when those things were happening.


Do you have numbers to back this up or just your theory?

Post iso-ball is boring as hell so I agree it looked better at times. However, it also failed miserably and the Jazz just didn’t have the players to succeed in motion when the plays broke down. That’s why a lot of contested threes were thrown up late in the shot clock.

Up tempo: It was very evident that Corbin tried to run more stuff early on, with mixed results up until Mo Williams went down. At that point, it was a broken team with such limited options that building on the post dump became the focal point.

The up tempo + less Al Jefferson didn’t work as well as you might think. First off, Corbin DID run less Jefferson post plays all season long. His looks were down from 17.2 last season to 15.8 (while he was marginally/negligibly more efficient @ .494 fg% vs .492). In addition, a ton of Jefferson’s shots came late in clutch games where he was one of the best and most consistent scorers in the game. The other three quarters saw way less Jefferson than last season.

Early in the season, Jefferson shot way less and the Jazz lost in doing so. By game:

1. 11 shots, a win.

2. 13 shots, a loss.

3. 16 shots, a loss.

4. 4 10 shots, a loss.

5. 18 shots, a win.

6. 9 shots, a loss.

7. 20 shots, a win.

8. 20 shots, a win.

9. 12 shots, a loss.

10. 14 shots, a loss.

Go ahead and dig through those games and make of each one what you will. Big picture though, Jefferson averaged 14.3 shots (vs. 17.2) and the Jazz went 4 and 6. Take out the two 20 shot wins and they went 2-6 on 12.875 looks per game.

TheMagnus wrote:
The second unit did it most of the year because their wasn't the need to dump it in to the post or wait for everybody to get set up every possession, and the result was a group of players that is much less polished and much less skilled offensively actually out performed the more skilled and experienced first unit.

Corbin tried plenty of deep post dump with Favors and Kanter, but Kanter was way too raw early on and Favors just isn’t an offensive threat. Still, we saw plenty of improvement throughout the season on both sides of the bucket (Kanter left block, Favors right), and increased looks came along.

Corbin also ran new sets (double high post) that Jefferson is not capable of running. That’s another testament to Corbin’s ability to mold the offense around his talent. It’s also why the second unit was much more entertaining to watch, at least for me. However, that doesn’t mean it was more efficient. I guarantee you Corbin has the stats and knows which plays were more productive.





TheMagnus wrote:
I think that is both a compliment and an indictment to the job Corbin did this year, and it is what I was trying to get across in the piece (though I don't think I did it very well). I don't think Corbins schemes are all bad, and he clearly had good intentions and made adjustments that I think were absolutely correct, but the biggest parts of the schemes, and the parts that were used the most often, were the least effective of almost anything he tried.

His schemes actually aren’t unique at all. He ran the same stuff just about every other NBA team runs these days. You could find elements from everything from the triangle to flex to side pick and roll, to corner screen threes, etc.

TheMagnus wrote:
Corbin should have adjusted his schemes to involve Hayward in the offense more early in the season rather than moving him to the bench to get him more touches, this became even more apparent after Mo went down.

This is so convoluted. Corbin specifically said he was working with Hayward to bring him along in the side pick and roll set. Now we’re going to hang Corbin with his own success after this started to work more efficiently? Hayward could not run many of these plays early on and grew very nicely this season into a bigger ball dominant role within the offense. I applaud both him and Corbin for their growth.

TheMagnus wrote:
He should have moved Marvin to the bench earlier in the season (or even before it) so he could play at a higher pace and have more opportunity to play a bigger role.

He was maybe 4-5 games late in moving Marvin to the bench when Marvin went into that prolonged slump. Good on Corbin for not knee-jerking and deviating from the plan over short term noise. Marvin has excellent defense as well so the case can be made that he’s still the better option even with his struggling offense.



TheMagnus wrote:
He should have used Demarre Carroll more often in place of Marvin and Foye, especially when the latter two were dragging ass, and he should have given Burks a heavier role at PG when Mo was out, pushing Watson to the end of the bench were he belonged. That's all 20/20 hindsight, and I will definitely acknowledge that some of those moves seems perfectly reasonable at the time, but in hindsight I don't think you can qualify any of those things as anything but mistakes, hopefully mistakes that he learns from.

Burks is a point guard now? The kid got better when Corbin spent a bunch of time with him teaching the pick and roll. Then Corbin played him more at the one and had some success. Now, with 20/20, we’re going to hang Corbin for bringing the kid along and then giving him deserved time?

Playing Watson over Tinsley drove me bonkers. I wanted more Carroll, but Foye did shoot 41 freaking percent from three. Not having Mo around limited how much Carroll could be used I think. Spacing is a huge issue when you have either of the two point guards that take push shot threes standing next to Carroll.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:41 am

Professo_Sloan wrote:
How bout a non-populist response to set this place apart.

TheMagnus wrote:
What was the fallacy?

I think Corbin showed us what scheme would work better in flashes this season. When the offense was less Jefferson centric, when it was more up tempo, when it utilized the strenghts of Mo and Hayward to create from the perimeter and in transition, when it ran more plays that involved more players earlier in the shot clock, when the focus was hitting Jefferson and Millsap moving towards the basket rather than just dumping it in to the post, whether through pick and roll or through good cutting and swinging action off the high post pivot, the offense looked and performed much better when those things were happening.


Do you have numbers to back this up or just your theory?

Post iso-ball is boring as hell so I agree it looked better at times. However, it also failed miserably and the Jazz just didn’t have the players to succeed in motion when the plays broke down. That’s why a lot of contested threes were thrown up late in the shot clock.

Up tempo: It was very evident that Corbin tried to run more stuff early on, with mixed results up until Mo Williams went down. At that point, it was a broken team with such limited options that building on the post dump became the focal point.

The up tempo + less Al Jefferson didn’t work as well as you might think. First off, Corbin DID run less Jefferson post plays all season long. His looks were down from 17.2 last season to 15.8 (while he was marginally/negligibly more efficient @ .494 fg% vs .492). In addition, a ton of Jefferson’s shots came late in clutch games where he was one of the best and most consistent scorers in the game. The other three quarters saw way less Jefferson than last season.

Early in the season, Jefferson shot way less and the Jazz lost in doing so. By game:

1. 11 shots, a win.

2. 13 shots, a loss.

3. 16 shots, a loss.

4. 4 10 shots, a loss.

5. 18 shots, a win.

6. 9 shots, a loss.

7. 20 shots, a win.

8. 20 shots, a win.

9. 12 shots, a loss.

10. 14 shots, a loss.

Go ahead and dig through those games and make of each one what you will. Big picture though, Jefferson averaged 14.3 shots (vs. 17.2) and the Jazz went 4 and 6. Take out the two 20 shot wins and they went 2-6 on 12.875 looks per game.

Wasn't it you that just barely made a big deal about stats not being adjusted for opponent, yet the point you are trying to make there with those stats is probably the more heavily biased by opponent than anything I produced?

I would argue that the primary driver there was the fact that Jefferson gets even less committed on the defensive end when he isn't the focus of the offense. I don't have time to dig up the numbers but his splits strongly hint that this is true.

Zach Lowe provides some limited analysis in support of these points in the follow up to the article I referenced before...

Zach Lowe wrote:

About 16 percent of Utah’s possessions for the season have finished with a post-up play, per Synergy, the second-highest such share in the league, behind only the behemoth Pacers. That number is down to 12 percent of late, and if you dig deeper, you see Utah has redistributed those post possessions to pick-and-rolls and a huge jump in plays Synergy simply classifies as “cuts.” And if you dig even deeper and watch the tape, you’ll find most of those “cuts” — efficient looks Utah is snagging at a league-best rate during the last three weeks — come out of pick-and-rolls.

....

Nearly 59 percent of Jefferson’s baskets came via an assist during that 10-game stretch pre-Denver, and a whopping 62 percent came via dimes during the five-game Utah winning streak Denver destroyed last night. That’s up from a 54 percent figure for the season, per NBA.com. Millsap or Hayward have assisted on 62 of Jefferson's baskets this season; 18 of those assisted baskets — nearly one-third of them — came during that 10-game stretch. Jefferson shot at least 50 percent in six consecutive games, earning Western Conference Player of the Week honors, and the Jazz piled up points in that stretch at a rate just below what the league’s two best offenses (Miami and Oklahoma City) have averaged for the season, per NBA.com.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57145/salt-lake-sadness-playoff-bound-or-not-the-jazz-cant-escape-their-biggest-problem

He goes on to note that while the offense was a lot better then Defense was even worse than normal.

Professo_Sloan wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
The second unit did it most of the year because their wasn't the need to dump it in to the post or wait for everybody to get set up every possession, and the result was a group of players that is much less polished and much less skilled offensively actually out performed the more skilled and experienced first unit.

Corbin tried plenty of deep post dump with Favors and Kanter, but Kanter was way too raw early on and Favors just isn’t an offensive threat. Still, we saw plenty of improvement throughout the season on both sides of the bucket (Kanter left block, Favors right), and increased looks came along.

Corbin also ran new sets (double high post) that Jefferson is not capable of running. That’s another testament to Corbin’s ability to mold the offense around his talent. It’s also why the second unit was much more entertaining to watch, at least for me. However, that doesn’t mean it was more efficient. I guarantee you Corbin has the stats and knows which plays were more productive.

I actually thought Jefferson was decent at teh high post this year, thought they should have used him more there.



Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:
Corbin should have adjusted his schemes to involve Hayward in the offense more early in the season rather than moving him to the bench to get him more touches, this became even more apparent after Mo went down.

This is so convoluted. Corbin specifically said he was working with Hayward to bring him along in the side pick and roll set. Now we’re going to hang Corbin with his own success after this started to work more efficiently? Hayward could not run many of these plays early on and grew very nicely this season into a bigger ball dominant role within the offense. I applaud both him and Corbin for their growth.

Nothing convoluted about it, he could have, and should have, done all of that stuff with Hayward starting and playing 30+ minutes every single game.

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:
He should have moved Marvin to the bench earlier in the season (or even before it) so he could play at a higher pace and have more opportunity to play a bigger role.

He was maybe 4-5 games late in moving Marvin to the bench when Marvin went into that prolonged slump. Good on Corbin for not knee-jerking and deviating from the plan over short term noise. Marvin has excellent defense as well so the case can be made that he’s still the better option even with his struggling offense.

4-5 games? He started over 50 games and was well below his career averages (not just shooting either, rebounds, assists, defensive stats...everything) in all but a handful of them. Corbin was 30-40 games late making that adjustment.

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:
He should have used Demarre Carroll more often in place of Marvin and Foye, especially when the latter two were dragging ass, and he should have given Burks a heavier role at PG when Mo was out, pushing Watson to the end of the bench were he belonged. That's all 20/20 hindsight, and I will definitely acknowledge that some of those moves seems perfectly reasonable at the time, but in hindsight I don't think you can qualify any of those things as anything but mistakes, hopefully mistakes that he learns from.

Burks is a point guard now? The kid got better when Corbin spent a bunch of time with him teaching the pick and roll. Then Corbin played him more at the one and had some success. Now, with 20/20, we’re going to hang Corbin for bringing the kid along and then giving him deserved time?

Playing Watson over Tinsley drove me bonkers. I wanted more Carroll, but Foye did shoot 41 freaking percent from three. Not having Mo around limited how much Carroll could be used I think. Spacing is a huge issue when you have either of the two point guards that take push shot threes standing next to Carroll.

Corbin did bring him along nicely, I'll credit him for that, but his overall usage of Burks was one of my bigger issues with him, he seemed to lack the confidence to believe in his own success in that development. He was too reluctant to use him at point for too long after he had helped him succeed in that roll, and then he overused him at SG when he had a better option in Carroll. I know that sounds convoluted but I swear it isn't. Burks should have been playing more PG.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:09 pm

I welcomed you to make of the numbers what you will so why are you throwing that in my face? Discount them and prove me wrong is great! For the time being, the evidence says Ty Corbin tried going away from post ball and got mixed results.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:11 pm

I can be persuaded that Jefferson was good at the high post. I wasn't a fan of his pump pump pump pum fake pump pump though. He was good in pick roll though, compared to others of course.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:14 pm

So you agree that Corbin should have done more Hayward side pick roll even though it wasn't working yet? I'm fully comfortable with losing for the future, just not the narrative you were putting off to me.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:16 pm

Check the splits. Marvin played well until that 11 game march slump. I'm not sacrificing a coach over not adjusting in game 7 instead of 9. That's fan emotion confidence killer knee jerking.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:21 pm

Okay, great point on believing in his development. As excellent framing as I've read all season actually.

Where I disagree is in the professional seeing the development in progress vs fans believing in their own hype. Now, there was n obvious point where Watsuck shouldn't have played at all, and Stud Tinsley only as that spark when the offense was garbage (a two year plague even if much much better this season). There was a period when burks-Hayward should have hooked up, as you kids say.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:33 pm

Professo_Sloan wrote:
Check the splits. Marvin played well until that 11 game march slump. I'm not sacrificing a coach over not adjusting in game 7 instead of 9. That's fan emotion confidence killer knee jerking.

What?? You look at the splits...

He had an absolutely horrific January, and was nearly as bad in February. Even when he was playing decent he was below his career averages pretty much across the board both per minute and per game.

This was the winter of Jazz fans discontent with Corbin, even though the Jazz were winning games. It was abundantly clear that the starting unit was struggling even before Mo went down, and it was even worse as soon as he went out.

Just about every game the Jazz broadcast crew flashed the same graphic about the Jazz having the most come back victories after being down 10+ points like it was a good thing, and every time I saw it I shook my head thinking about how the Jazz got down 10 in those games and how they got it back, the +/- stats tell the story in clear and unambiguous detail.

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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:42 pm

Professo_Sloan wrote:
I can be persuaded that Jefferson was good at the high post. I wasn't a fan of his pump pump pump pum fake pump pump though. He was good in pick roll though, compared to others of course.

I think Jefferson is a pretty good passer out of the high post, and noticed that he was less likely to do the ball-stopping wave the ball around multi-fake. He also was good at rolling to the hoop or hitting the spot up jumper from there when they had the side pick-and-roll going with Millsap.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:41 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
Professo_Sloan wrote:
Check the splits. Marvin played well until that 11 game march slump. I'm not sacrificing a coach over not adjusting in game 7 instead of 9. That's fan emotion confidence killer knee jerking.

What?? You look at the splits...

He had an absolutely horrific January, and was nearly as bad in February. Even when he was playing decent he was below his career averages pretty much across the board both per minute and per game.

This was the winter of Jazz fans discontent with Corbin, even though the Jazz were winning games. It was abundantly clear that the starting unit was struggling even before Mo went down, and it was even worse as soon as he went out.

Just about every game the Jazz broadcast crew flashed the same graphic about the Jazz having the most come back victories after being down 10+ points like it was a good thing, and every time I saw it I shook my head thinking about how the Jazz got down 10 in those games and how they got it back, the +/- stats tell the story in clear and unambiguous detail.


Are u trolling?

Mo went down in December and Marvin had a horrific March... Jazz were running more before Mo went down just like you asked for. Then leapfrogging to "clear and unambiguous" +\- as if its inside a vacuum?
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:50 pm

Professo_Sloan wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
Professo_Sloan wrote:
Check the splits. Marvin played well until that 11 game march slump. I'm not sacrificing a coach over not adjusting in game 7 instead of 9. That's fan emotion confidence killer knee jerking.

What?? You look at the splits...

He had an absolutely horrific January, and was nearly as bad in February. Even when he was playing decent he was below his career averages pretty much across the board both per minute and per game.

This was the winter of Jazz fans discontent with Corbin, even though the Jazz were winning games. It was abundantly clear that the starting unit was struggling even before Mo went down, and it was even worse as soon as he went out.

Just about every game the Jazz broadcast crew flashed the same graphic about the Jazz having the most come back victories after being down 10+ points like it was a good thing, and every time I saw it I shook my head thinking about how the Jazz got down 10 in those games and how they got it back, the +/- stats tell the story in clear and unambiguous detail.


Are u trolling?

Mo went down in December and Marvin had a horrific March... Jazz were running more before Mo went down just like you asked for. Then leapfrogging to "clear and unambiguous" +\- as if its inside a vacuum?

I'm beginning to think you don't actually read these things, but you should, that old brain of yours is clearly playing tricks on you.

Just go look at the splits, here's the link...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima02/splits/2013/

January through March, all terrible, with January being hands down his worst month.

And yes, the +/- is clear and unambiguous as to the reason why the Jazz had so many "comeback" victories, it's encoded in the meaning of one of those tables I posted, I'm sure I don't have to tell you which one.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:16 am

3Pt% goes from phenomenal .423 to under .3?? Surround the shark and sink it trollolol.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:50 am

I just read all of this thread and applaud the debating. Unfortunately I'm still debated if Corbin is a good coach, stratigically. Everyone knows not having a good backup point to Mo hurt the Jazz. Watson and Tinsley were slightly better than this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIK2u6z5EJc at shooting, but not much better.

Riddle me this: if Earl and Jamaal are NBA players that can't shoot- why isn't this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A438JQaP3vw&playnext=1&list=PL22BE424A3AF9D8BD in the NBA? And since we're on a utube kick, you know for a fact NBA GM's were laughing like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU3qT05Q-is when they saw what the Jazz had for backup point guards.

But back to the issue: Magnus tried to be fair in his breakdown but overall didn't you think his opinion of Corbin was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-CnmVVHIzU.

Anywho, I think Corbin deserves another shot because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af4OOFNWp2Q
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:28 am

Professo_Sloan wrote:
3Pt% goes from phenomenal .423 to under .3?? Surround the shark and sink it trollolol.

Fine, you want to put on the dunce cap you're welcome to it.

It was a nice debate though, really helped me to organize my thoughts on this issue, so thanks for that.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:31 am

aliveandkickin wrote:
I just read all of this thread and applaud the debating. Unfortunately I'm still debated if Corbin is a good coach, stratigically. Everyone knows not having a good backup point to Mo hurt the Jazz. Watson and Tinsley were slightly better than this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIK2u6z5EJc at shooting, but not much better.

Riddle me this: if Earl and Jamaal are NBA players that can't shoot- why isn't this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A438JQaP3vw&playnext=1&list=PL22BE424A3AF9D8BD in the NBA? And since we're on a utube kick, you know for a fact NBA GM's were laughing like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU3qT05Q-is when they saw what the Jazz had for backup point guards.

But back to the issue: Magnus tried to be fair in his breakdown but overall didn't you think his opinion of Corbin was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-CnmVVHIzU.

Anywho, I think Corbin deserves another shot because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af4OOFNWp2Q

Just quality all around there. Solid work.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:37 am

TheMagnus wrote:
Professo_Sloan wrote:
3Pt% goes from phenomenal .423 to under .3?? Surround the shark and sink it trollolol.

Fine, you want to put on the dunce cap you're welcome to it.

It was a nice debate though, really helped me to organize my thoughts on this issue, so thanks for that.

Oh no someone disagrees with me lets call them stupid everyone pile on okay. Avoid the stats guys, avoid the stats.

Yah I'm dumb cool thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:03 am

Professo_Sloan wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
Professo_Sloan wrote:
3Pt% goes from phenomenal .423 to under .3?? Surround the shark and sink it trollolol.

Fine, you want to put on the dunce cap you're welcome to it.

It was a nice debate though, really helped me to organize my thoughts on this issue, so thanks for that.

Oh no someone disagrees with me lets call them stupid everyone pile on okay. Avoid the stats guys, avoid the stats.

Yah I'm dumb cool thanks.

Really? you want to keep playing this game?

First you acknowledge that January was his worst month of the season, and that totally refutes your point about him being "fine" until some imaginary 10 game stretch in March, and we'll go from there. Because you are clearly all butt-hurt and making no sense, and I refuse to argue a point that I have already proven false.
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