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 [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin

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TheMagnus
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:36 pm

aliveandkickin wrote:
Send the article to Locke. Bet he'd be impressed. It's long for the average fan and from someone he doesn't know but when he sees the graphs I guarantee he'll read it.
What stood out to me: how Corbin is generally liked by the players and they usually try hard for him. Not having the PG manage two for ones was a solid point. I kinda got lost with the offensive schemes - so dumbing it down a little may be beneficial. To the average fan , I think two solid graphs are enough to keep it flowing and keep the attention ..doing this while maintaining their legitimacy without wondering if the graphs are off from opponents played would be killer. IE, stats of Kanter and Millsap vs Jefferson and Millsap against the same opponent as starters (if available) .
I'm of the opinion Corbin played high-salary vets more often more to keep everyone happy and the young guys still eager to prove themselves ...not sure if his own experience as a player contributed to not playing Burks at PG more often or starting DC over Marvin was accurate. The link was interested though.
I don't think Corbin is too proud to learn from his mistakes but his lack of creativity in half court offense sucks.
Overall I'll give the article and Corbin a B+.

Thanks alive, I appreciate that. I made a couple minor changes and I think I'll be throw it up on the blog Monday.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:28 am

You're welcome. Thanks for putting the above in this thread- I'll delete where it was erroneously sent if I can.

Keep up the good work. We probably agree 75% of the time and the other 25% you usually make me change my mind. Good to see passion for the Jazz and writing..the latter I've always wanted to do but grammar/spelling and lack of putting together something original sure is tough.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:39 am

Mag, as you've already said, your original post was too long, and (you might not have said this) lacked focus. I think both you and prof have made some good points in the debate, but, I'm leaning towards more of prof's points. One thing that I think you should address in your original proposed blog was the injury to Mo Williams and how it negatively impacted the Jazz.

Your use of stats seemed very problematic. We've all seen "Moneyball" and enjoyed the marvel-- but, baseball stats and NBA stats are not interchangeable. In baseball there are quite a few more static facts (where there are few variables, allowing someone to analyze more closely the tangibles and intangibles). In the NBA there are very few static facts-- statistical analysis will not show you how well a 3rd string pg or sf will perform against an opponent's 1st string pg or sf. I'm not saying stats like PER 48 or +/- are useless-- just that they can provide only a very small portion of the overall picture.

I'm a fan of both Burks and DC, but only because of their potential-- not what they bring to the table right now. Watching Denver play 5 on 4 defense against the Jazz when we had DC in the game reinforced my opinion that you can't coach a game based on stats. It wasn't PER or +/- that led Denver to ignore DC on the perimeter and concentrate on stopping penetration and our bigs on the post. With DC on the perimeter, Denver could double team our Post and still prevent penetration-- and, have bodies in the paint to get the rebound.

I don't know if I missed your deadline for posting this blog, but, if you still can, I would advise revising it quite a bit. Unless your point is that Corbin should have treated our team as completely in rebuilding mode (like JV in Orlando), I would go with a more moderate condemnation of Ty's coaching.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:12 am

Saint Louis wrote:
Mag, as you've already said, your original post was too long, and (you might not have said this) lacked focus. I think both you and prof have made some good points in the debate, but, I'm leaning towards more of prof's points. One thing that I think you should address in your original proposed blog was the injury to Mo Williams and how it negatively impacted the Jazz.

Your use of stats seemed very problematic. We've all seen "Moneyball" and enjoyed the marvel-- but, baseball stats and NBA stats are not interchangeable. In baseball there are quite a few more static facts (where there are few variables, allowing someone to analyze more closely the tangibles and intangibles). In the NBA there are very few static facts-- statistical analysis will not show you how well a 3rd string pg or sf will perform against an opponent's 1st string pg or sf. I'm not saying stats like PER 48 or +/- are useless-- just that they can provide only a very small portion of the overall picture.

I'm a fan of both Burks and DC, but only because of their potential-- not what they bring to the table right now. Watching Denver play 5 on 4 defense against the Jazz when we had DC in the game reinforced my opinion that you can't coach a game based on stats. It wasn't PER or +/- that led Denver to ignore DC on the perimeter and concentrate on stopping penetration and our bigs on the post. With DC on the perimeter, Denver could double team our Post and still prevent penetration-- and, have bodies in the paint to get the rebound.

I don't know if I missed your deadline for posting this blog, but, if you still can, I would advise revising it quite a bit. Unless your point is that Corbin should have treated our team as completely in rebuilding mode (like JV in Orlando), I would go with a more moderate condemnation of Ty's coaching.

Thanks saint, I'll give it another look for focus, I felt that a bit too but wasn't sure how to reign it in.

I would like to point out, again, that I know very well the limitations of stats in basketbll, and I feel like your argument agaist the stats I presented is a bit like a defense attorney saying the evidence against his client is "very problematic".

"Ya, I know you have a murder weapon with his prints on it, and his shirt was covered with blood, and he left a voicemail an hour before the murder saying that he was going to kill the victim...but you're not telling the WHOLE story."

I intentionally didn't include much analysis of those tables, people are going to see what they want to see anyways, my intent was to simply point out a few facts that I found concerning and describe what I thought they meant.

I should note that, as I said at the beginning, this is the first in a series of posts, and this one was all about Corbin, this isn't about the players, it's about him, and trying to give and honest assessment of his performance this season.

I'm not goign to argue that you can't use a paint-by-numbers strategy when you coach, that's never something I even hinted at. I'm not sure what Denver game you are talking about, but if it is the last Denver game then I think you are suffering from a bit of confirmations bias-itis, because DC didn't play in that game untill garbage time. It was Tinsley they weren't guarding. To Tinsleys credit he hit 2 of his 3 shots in a little over 5 minutes (though only shooting 3 shots in 5 minutes when you are litterally not being guarded is a bit suspect), and to Corbins credit the problem was rectified by using Alec Burks at the point.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:32 am

TheMagnus wrote:
Saint Louis wrote:
Mag, as you've already said, your original post was too long, and (you might not have said this) lacked focus. I think both you and prof have made some good points in the debate, but, I'm leaning towards more of prof's points. One thing that I think you should address in your original proposed blog was the injury to Mo Williams and how it negatively impacted the Jazz.

Your use of stats seemed very problematic. We've all seen "Moneyball" and enjoyed the marvel-- but, baseball stats and NBA stats are not interchangeable. In baseball there are quite a few more static facts (where there are few variables, allowing someone to analyze more closely the tangibles and intangibles). In the NBA there are very few static facts-- statistical analysis will not show you how well a 3rd string pg or sf will perform against an opponent's 1st string pg or sf. I'm not saying stats like PER 48 or +/- are useless-- just that they can provide only a very small portion of the overall picture.

I'm a fan of both Burks and DC, but only because of their potential-- not what they bring to the table right now. Watching Denver play 5 on 4 defense against the Jazz when we had DC in the game reinforced my opinion that you can't coach a game based on stats. It wasn't PER or +/- that led Denver to ignore DC on the perimeter and concentrate on stopping penetration and our bigs on the post. With DC on the perimeter, Denver could double team our Post and still prevent penetration-- and, have bodies in the paint to get the rebound.

I don't know if I missed your deadline for posting this blog, but, if you still can, I would advise revising it quite a bit. Unless your point is that Corbin should have treated our team as completely in rebuilding mode (like JV in Orlando), I would go with a more moderate condemnation of Ty's coaching.

Thanks saint, I'll give it another look for focus, I felt that a bit too but wasn't sure how to reign it in.

I would like to point out, again, that I know very well the limitations of stats in basketbll, and I feel like your argument agaist the stats I presented is a bit like a defense attorney saying the evidence against his client is "very problematic".

"Ya, I know you have a murder weapon with his prints on it, and his shirt was covered with blood, and he left a voicemail an hour before the murder saying that he was going to kill the victim...but you're not telling the WHOLE story."

I intentionally didn't include much analysis of those tables, people are going to see what they want to see anyways, my intent was to simply point out a few facts that I found concerning and describe what I thought they meant.

I should note that, as I said at the beginning, this is the first in a series of posts, and this one was all about Corbin, this isn't about the players, it's about him, and trying to give and honest assessment of his performance this season.

I'm not goign to argue that you can't use a paint-by-numbers strategy when you coach, that's never something I even hinted at. I'm not sure what Denver game you are talking about, but if it is the last Denver game then I think you are suffering from a bit of confirmations bias-itis, because DC didn't play in that game untill garbage time. It was Tinsley they weren't guarding. To Tinsleys credit he hit 2 of his 3 shots in a little over 5 minutes (though only shooting 3 shots in 5 minutes when you are litterally not being guarded is a bit suspect), and to Corbins credit the problem was rectified by using Alec Burks at the point.

I don't agree about it being too long. It was written for a blog not a forum.

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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:04 am

The post is up on the blog. Thanks everybody for your feedback. It may not look like I changed much, but I really did consider the thing you guys talked about.


http://www.utahjazznation.com/2013/04/164/
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PostSubject: Dammit.   Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:08 pm

Debbil done et mah well-thought-out and uncharacteristically brief response. Ah well...

You question: "Too long" is relative to what you were trying to accomplish. Yeah, it was too long for a joke, or a Tweet or a messageboard post. It might even have been too long to maximize readership, which is usually a goal...but hell, it was an analytical essay, in which you have to a) make all the points you want to make and b) include corroborative evidence for those points. Throw in the subjective elements you were addressing (fan reaction to Corbin's performance) and you're stuck with a relatively long...well, almost an "article" or "essay" rather than a "blog post". So, absent any redundancies and/or unnecessary verbosity, not too long.

Of course it lacked swearing, death threats, baseless calumnies, over-the-top insults, polysyllabic grandiloquence, out-of-the-blue historical references, bad jokes and made-up scientific 'facts', but you were probably stuck with that result by your initial (wise) authorial choice of not being me.

Conclusion:
The pivotal takeaway of the whole thing, for me, was this point:
"...these are all fixable problems, things that can be taught or learned by experience."
And on the fragile hook of that contention, we must hang our hopes for next year. I honestly believe you are correct in saying these flaws can be corrected. The fragility lies in the fact that not all things that can happen, do happen. I mean, theoretically, I could have a threesome with Olivia Wilde and Zhang Zhiyi on a yacht off the coast of...and then...but...butt...wait, what was I talking about?

And one more thing: While "talent inflation" by homer fans is a real, and seemingly universal phenomenon (and every time they do it, I swear Professo becomes even smarter), I hereby declare that all but the giddiest, most Jazz-centric homer fans are missing the boat on Burks by underestimating his upside. The comparisons to Mo Almond are lazy and could not be more off base. When he "surprises" everybody with his "unexpected improvement" next year, I'll try to explain what I'm basing this on. Till then, feel free to ridicule my "mindless homerism". But remember "He who laughs last may just be fatigued from having imaginary sex with Oliva Wilde and Zhang Zhiyi."


Last edited by Trollificus on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added more words)
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed May 01, 2013 1:43 am

TheMagnus wrote:
The post is up on the blog. Thanks everybody for your feedback. It may not look like I changed much, but I really did consider the thing you guys talked about.


http://www.utahjazznation.com/2013/04/164/

I'll gladly admit this in hopes of serious enlightenment. What is the difference between a post on a website and a blog entry? Aren't our posts here on forumotion the same as blog posts? I didn't respond on the "BLOG" because I already addressed my concerns here.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] Post-Mortem PT.1: Ty Corbin   Wed May 01, 2013 8:15 am

Saint Louis wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
The post is up on the blog. Thanks everybody for your feedback. It may not look like I changed much, but I really did consider the thing you guys talked about.


http://www.utahjazznation.com/2013/04/164/

I'll gladly admit this in hopes of serious enlightenment. What is the difference between a post on a website and a blog entry? Aren't our posts here on forumotion the same as blog posts? I didn't respond on the "BLOG" because I already addressed my concerns here.

You can't respond on the blog, all of the repsonses are directed to the forum.

As far as I can tell whatever rules there are when it comes to defining what separates blogging from editorializing from feature writing from journalism have almost everything to do with the amount of review something is subjected to and who actually publishes it.

The typical "blog post", according to most of the bloggers that I talk to, is less than 1000 words, uses short sentences and paragraphs, and is usually published with minimal external (from the author) review.

But that isn't the only way to do it because, like I said, it's more about who is publishing it and how than it is the actual content or length. Longer stuff, which is effectively a self published research paper that involves a deep dive into some topic, is popular with psuedo-academics and psuedo-analysts (pseudo = not professionals) . These can be really long, and the good ones are usually full of some sort of supporting data and/or references. You see a lot of this type of thing in sports analytics, also see it a lot in historical pieces.

Some of the stuff posted in here could qualify as what I would consider a blog entry, which is why we felt that a Blog would be a natural extension of this forum, and why I am trying to recruit people, like yourself, to contribute to the blog. The Blog is intended to be a little more permanent, a little more polished, a little more public. The hope is that the relationship between the forum and the blog will be symbiotic.
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