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 [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development

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TheMagnus
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PostSubject: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Mon May 20, 2013 1:27 pm

One of the more interesting arguments among Jazz fans and commentators is about the role game minutes play in the development of young players. This issue could (and really has) have thousands of words written about it supported by mountains of data, only to come to the end and find everybody is more sure of their opinions. David Locke has professed his belief in an which asserts there is a sweet spot in terms of minutes played for young players that maximizes their development and “over-dipping” or “under-dipping” is detrimental to development. That theory has been met by…let’s just call it warm disagreement, from many Jazz bloggers and fans who say there is no such thing as “over-dipping” a young player. They agree that under dipping is a bad thing, though they will also admit they really aren’t sure what number of minutes are required to properly saturate a player in milky goodness. Wait, what are we talking about? …. oh, right… Something I haven’t heard yet is that the whole argument is kind of silly, even if it is a subset of the whole “the young guys need to play more” argument, because as long as the minutes are greater than zero it really doesn’t matter all that much at all to player development. I’d like to make that argument now.

Trying to prove your point of view on this issue statistically demonstrates quite effectively one of the fundamental challenges of statistical analysis, proving causation. In this case the correlation is undeniable, more minutes and better play go hand in hand, but are more minutes a result of better play, or is better play a result of more minutes? The thing about highly dependent variables, like minutes and playing time is unless you can prove one causes changes in the other and/or quantify the interaction in some way, you simply can’t say the outcomes are or not CAUSED by one or the other. The problem becomes even more difficult in this case because the generally accepted causational relationship between minutes and playing time is better play results in more playing time (though Coach Corbin seems determined to test the limits of this assumption), so how does one go about proving more playing time results in better play? This simple fact makes this topic one of those things where not only can people see what they want to see, but they can also “prove it” to themselves and others because the data can quite literally support both sides of the argument.

Actually answering these questions and attempting to analytically prove the relationship between minutes and development could easily be the subject of an academic thesis (math/economics majors reading this, you’re welcome). Gathering the player data and establishing controls to try and separate and identify the factors correlated to player development in a way that attempts to separate the variables of minutes played, age, size, athletic ability, coaching, and experience, among others and correlate them to player development is really a classic exercise in economic theory (do you trickle down or up?).

All of that being said, there are two things I am comfortable asserting given the data and the games I have seen; the first is that Kanter, Favors, and Hayward are performing very, very well on a per minute basis in comparison to other players of their age and experience; the second is those three and, sort of surprisingly, Jeremy Evans have made measurable and visible year to year improvements in both their production and skills each year in the league. Supporting those claims doesn’t really require a lot of analysis, just a click, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here for some samples of the supporting data.

Is that more or less than should be expected? Is that more or less than could be achieved with different philosophies? Why didn’t Alec Burks show overall improvement in production while all of the other young players did? I really don’t know.

My own personal theory, based primarily on my own experience playing and watching basketball, but which I feel is also supported by the data (like everybody else), is player development has less (MUCH less) to do with game minutes and more to do with other factors like injuries, the system of the team, the focus and effort of the player in practice and training, and natural physical ability to name a few. I think learning (cognitive) theory applies to game minutes like it applies to all learning, but the things you learn in-game are not the things that make you a good basketball player. Players need a certain amount of time and experience to learn how to optimize their performance on the court, but those minutes do not significantly impact their actual skills or abilities, just their application of them. I think the primary type of learning that happens on the court is how to translate box score production and skill into the team based metric of winning. I would argue that kind knowledge development should be measured in seasons and not minutes, and is highly dependent on the culture and success of the team he’s playing for. I also think for extremely young players (<22) whether the requisite experience for full optimization happens over three seasons or five makes little difference in the long term, because the player’s actual basketball skills and abilities will develop separately from those minutes, and be the primary factor limiting their performance until the player is fully mature (usually around 24-25 years old).

Finally, I think we need to remember the huge disparity between the numbers of minutes these players spend playing in actual NBA games, and the amount of time players spend off the court working on their skills and abilities. The number of minutes spent on the court is probably comparable to the number of HOURS spend working off it. That is where the real learning and development takes place, and that is where a player will really self-determine whether or not they reach their full potential as a basketball player. Whether or not coaches, front offices, and fans realize that potential and appreciate it is an entirely different, and I think much more interesting, subject.

http://www.utahjazznation.com/2013/05/on-game-minutes-and-player-development/
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Mon May 20, 2013 2:32 pm

Like you said, it's almost impossible to prove your point when it comes to this argument. I think the last paragraph you wrote pretty much says it all.


I do wonder though...

If a player is working his ass off in practice, making all those necessary sacrifices to develop properly, makes gains in his personal game & his understandling of the NBA game as a whole, but gets no love when it comes to actual floor time ..... don't you think that many players would get frustrated & just throw their hands up, "I give up". In which case the lack of PT indirectly stiffles their development?

On the other hand, if a player gets ton's a PT based off his draft position, expectations, and lack of quality players in front of him regardless of actual merit, which means he never really has to work for his floor time... does that stiffle development?

It's a balancing act for coaches, but has to mostly be about self-motivation for the player.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Mon May 20, 2013 5:53 pm

We can look at two of the all time greats, John and Karl. Took them couple years to get into the starting lineup. And there over all stats are about as good as you can ask for. Still took a few years after that to get there shot for a ring. Had it not been for MJ @ SP.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Mon May 20, 2013 7:15 pm

zero24gravity wrote:
Like you said, it's almost impossible to prove your point when it comes to this argument. I think the last paragraph you wrote pretty much says it all.


I do wonder though...

If a player is working his ass off in practice, making all those necessary sacrifices to develop properly, makes gains in his personal game & his understandling of the NBA game as a whole, but gets no love when it comes to actual floor time ..... don't you think that many players would get frustrated & just throw their hands up, "I give up". In which case the lack of PT indirectly stiffles their development?

On the other hand, if a player gets ton's a PT based off his draft position, expectations, and lack of quality players in front of him regardless of actual merit, which means he never really has to work for his floor time... does that stiffle development?

It's a balancing act for coaches, but has to mostly be about self-motivation for the player.

I agree with you there, but even those cases really have nothing to do with actual minutes, only the PERCEPTION by the player of what minutes are or are not deserved, and the implication is that the minutes themselves don't really do the developing, but rather the motivation they may or may not provide the player to better themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Mon May 20, 2013 8:05 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
zero24gravity wrote:
Like you said, it's almost impossible to prove your point when it comes to this argument. I think the last paragraph you wrote pretty much says it all.


I do wonder though...

If a player is working his ass off in practice, making all those necessary sacrifices to develop properly, makes gains in his personal game & his understandling of the NBA game as a whole, but gets no love when it comes to actual floor time ..... don't you think that many players would get frustrated & just throw their hands up, "I give up". In which case the lack of PT indirectly stiffles their development?

On the other hand, if a player gets ton's a PT based off his draft position, expectations, and lack of quality players in front of him regardless of actual merit, which means he never really has to work for his floor time... does that stiffle development?

It's a balancing act for coaches, but has to mostly be about self-motivation for the player.

I agree with you there, but even those cases really have nothing to do with actual minutes, only the PERCEPTION by the player of what minutes are or are not deserved, and the implication is that the minutes themselves don't really do the developing, but rather the motivation they may or may not provide the player to better themselves.

You think thats why Millsap had only a so so year? He felt like he had put in his time already from years past? And lacked MOTIVATION for last years? I thought Millsap would come out with a better year maybe even a allstar thyp year.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Mon May 20, 2013 9:13 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
.

My own personal theory, based primarily on my own experience playing and watching basketball, but which I feel is also supported by the data (like everybody else), is player development has less (MUCH less) to do with game minutes and more to do with other factors like injuries, the system of the team, the focus and effort of the player in practice and training, and natural physical ability to name a few.

Provocative thinking for sure but I find myself virulently disagreeing on one of your central tenets. My opinion is game time >> than other development time. You cannot discount the crucible and psychological dynamic of actual game time minutes in player development beyond the simple view of "minutes". Part of player development is experience performing well under pressure, on TV, in front of 16,000 screaming fans either for or against you. Against guys who want to own you because it is a dog-eat-dog, only alpha males need apply environment. I don't care how many J's or consecutive free throws you hit in the gym after the practice or in practice - that is not game time environment, just like regular season games <<< than playoff games in terms of player development. You can't get competent at being a rotation player in simulations. Any combat veteran will tell you "war games" (practice) is not "war" (actual games), and uber-warriors are formed in battle, not pretending to kill Red Team, but doing it. Confidence is gained first by preparation (your point) but most importantly by applying that and succeeding under pressure. Development may happen happen on the bench watching games if you think like a coach but most players don't think that way. They learn by experience, being in the ring, finding zones and experiencing success under duress. You aren't going to become the leader of the pack by simply watching what the leader does - yes, it is good beta for the studious, but you have to have the chance to prove you are the real deal. And, if you are a guy like, say Burks, Evans, DC and Kanter, who clearly have done their preparation, NOT playing when the guys in front of you are not clearly superior athletes, better prepared or smarter, the opposite effect of NO MINUTES = loss of confidence/anger/distraction/WTF Coach? The point is, developing players need run to prove to others, (coaches, FO and teammates), that they are worth the investment.

And don't get me started about player/coach personality and politics. What message did Ty send DC this year besides "you sleep with my wife and you'll never see the floor"? What does Evans have to do, ("Put me in coach, I'm ready to play and I kill in practice and can jump over every guy out there and my jumper is good now!") What didn't Kanter do, ("Coach, does my age make me too young to play this game when Sap/Al is absolutely sucking shit right now?") What did Burks in fact do to get minutes? Player development starts with behind the scenes work but being the world's best understudy never makes a star if he never sees the stage in an important role.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Tue May 21, 2013 8:32 am

MTJazz wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
.

My own personal theory, based primarily on my own experience playing and watching basketball, but which I feel is also supported by the data (like everybody else), is player development has less (MUCH less) to do with game minutes and more to do with other factors like injuries, the system of the team, the focus and effort of the player in practice and training, and natural physical ability to name a few.

Provocative thinking for sure but I find myself virulently disagreeing on one of your central tenets. My opinion is game time >> than other development time. You cannot discount the crucible and psychological dynamic of actual game time minutes in player development beyond the simple view of "minutes". Part of player development is experience performing well under pressure, on TV, in front of 16,000 screaming fans either for or against you. Against guys who want to own you because it is a dog-eat-dog, only alpha males need apply environment. I don't care how many J's or consecutive free throws you hit in the gym after the practice or in practice - that is not game time environment, just like regular season games <<< than playoff games in terms of player development. You can't get competent at being a rotation player in simulations. Any combat veteran will tell you "war games" (practice) is not "war" (actual games), and uber-warriors are formed in battle, not pretending to kill Red Team, but doing it. Confidence is gained first by preparation (your point) but most importantly by applying that and succeeding under pressure. Development may happen happen on the bench watching games if you think like a coach but most players don't think that way. They learn by experience, being in the ring, finding zones and experiencing success under duress. You aren't going to become the leader of the pack by simply watching what the leader does - yes, it is good beta for the studious, but you have to have the chance to prove you are the real deal. And, if you are a guy like, say Burks, Evans, DC and Kanter, who clearly have done their preparation, NOT playing when the guys in front of you are not clearly superior athletes, better prepared or smarter, the opposite effect of NO MINUTES = loss of confidence/anger/distraction/WTF Coach? The point is, developing players need run to prove to others, (coaches, FO and teammates), that they are worth the investment.

And don't get me started about player/coach personality and politics. What message did Ty send DC this year besides "you sleep with my wife and you'll never see the floor"? What does Evans have to do, ("Put me in coach, I'm ready to play and I kill in practice and can jump over every guy out there and my jumper is good now!") What didn't Kanter do, ("Coach, does my age make me too young to play this game when Sap/Al is absolutely sucking shit right now?") What did Burks in fact do to get minutes? Player development starts with behind the scenes work but being the world's best understudy never makes a star if he never sees the stage in an important role.

I think that this is probably the prevailing view. I find it interesting that we mostly agree on the real value of game minutes, we just have very different ideas of what the value of that is to the development of young players.

My argument and point is that all of that is important, but it's not going to change who or what a player actually is, and it will have little effect one what he can produce when called upon. To borrow your example, Warriors are not made in battle, they are trained before they ever reach the battle field to be soldiers. They are PROVEN on the battle field.

That is why I think the argument is kind of silly. For 99% of NBA players the biggest factor in their future success is not whether or not they can step up and be an alpha dog, it is whether or not they can produce quality results in the minutes they are given, and the difference between playing 500 game minutes and 2500 game minutes in the very early years of their career simply isn't going to have a measureable impact on what their skills and abilities will allow them to produce.

To me, when the discussion turns to development of young players, it doesn't make any sense to place so much value on game experience which they will inevitably get if they are good enough (better play => more minutes really is the way it works) and which really doesn't change what they are actually capable of producing. Every player is going to have a different path, every player is going to respond to a different stimulus, and every player is going to have a different ceiling for their development. If the understandy is good enough they will get their chance, and when they do they will not be denied.

As a side note, I actually thought Burks was one of Ty's real success stories this year. He was terrible to start the year and he was rightfully benched. He was forced into action as a PG, which is not his natural position, and I thought Ty did a masterfull job of reigning him in to play that position and bringing him along in a way that he could be successfull. It was evident in Burks production and play that the message that was given to him had a positive impact on him as a player.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Tue May 21, 2013 9:38 am

TheMagnus wrote:

As a side note, I actually thought Burks was one of Ty's real success stories this year. He was terrible to start the year and he was rightfully benched. He was forced into action as a PG, which is not his natural position, and I thought Ty did a masterfull job of reigning him in to play that position and bringing him along in a way that he could be successfull. It was evident in Burks production and play that the message that was given to him had a positive impact on him as a player.

Overall, I can agree with this. Problem is, just about every other player was misused IMO, so it's hard to give Ty credit for the one anomaly among his multiple failures.

Seems more like a fluke than a strategic move when you look at his overall track record.
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PostSubject: Different Take   Tue May 21, 2013 4:32 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
MTJazz wrote:
TheMagnus wrote:
.

My own personal theory, based primarily on my own experience playing and watching basketball, but which I feel is also supported by the data (like everybody else), is player development has less (MUCH less) to do with game minutes and more to do with other factors like injuries, the system of the team, the focus and effort of the player in practice and training, and natural physical ability to name a few.

Provocative thinking for sure but I find myself virulently disagreeing on one of your central tenets. My opinion is game time >> than other development time. You cannot discount the crucible and psychological dynamic of actual game time minutes in player development beyond the simple view of "minutes". Part of player development is experience performing well under pressure, on TV, in front of 16,000 screaming fans either for or against you. Against guys who want to own you because it is a dog-eat-dog, only alpha males need apply environment. I don't care how many J's or consecutive free throws you hit in the gym after the practice or in practice - that is not game time environment, just like regular season games <<< than playoff games in terms of player development. You can't get competent at being a rotation player in simulations. Any combat veteran will tell you "war games" (practice) is not "war" (actual games), and uber-warriors are formed in battle, not pretending to kill Red Team, but doing it. Confidence is gained first by preparation (your point) but most importantly by applying that and succeeding under pressure. Development may happen happen on the bench watching games if you think like a coach but most players don't think that way. They learn by experience, being in the ring, finding zones and experiencing success under duress. You aren't going to become the leader of the pack by simply watching what the leader does - yes, it is good beta for the studious, but you have to have the chance to prove you are the real deal. And, if you are a guy like, say Burks, Evans, DC and Kanter, who clearly have done their preparation, NOT playing when the guys in front of you are not clearly superior athletes, better prepared or smarter, the opposite effect of NO MINUTES = loss of confidence/anger/distraction/WTF Coach? The point is, developing players need run to prove to others, (coaches, FO and teammates), that they are worth the investment.

And don't get me started about player/coach personality and politics. What message did Ty send DC this year besides "you sleep with my wife and you'll never see the floor"? What does Evans have to do, ("Put me in coach, I'm ready to play and I kill in practice and can jump over every guy out there and my jumper is good now!") What didn't Kanter do, ("Coach, does my age make me too young to play this game when Sap/Al is absolutely sucking shit right now?") What did Burks in fact do to get minutes? Player development starts with behind the scenes work but being the world's best understudy never makes a star if he never sees the stage in an important role.

I think that this is probably the prevailing view. I find it interesting that we mostly agree on the real value of game minutes, we just have very different ideas of what the value of that is to the development of young players.

My argument and point is that all of that is important, but it's not going to change who or what a player actually is, and it will have little effect one what he can produce when called upon. To borrow your example, Warriors are not made in battle, they are trained before they ever reach the battle field to be soldiers. They are PROVEN on the battle field.

That is why I think the argument is kind of silly. For 99% of NBA players the biggest factor in their future success is not whether or not they can step up and be an alpha dog, it is whether or not they can produce quality results in the minutes they are given, and the difference between playing 500 game minutes and 2500 game minutes in the very early years of their career simply isn't going to have a measureable impact on what their skills and abilities will allow them to produce.

To me, when the discussion turns to development of young players, it doesn't make any sense to place so much value on game experience which they will inevitably get if they are good enough (better play => more minutes really is the way it works) and which really doesn't change what they are actually capable of producing. Every player is going to have a different path, every player is going to respond to a different stimulus, and every player is going to have a different ceiling for their development. If the understandy is good enough they will get their chance, and when they do they will not be denied.

As a side note, I actually thought Burks was one of Ty's real success stories this year. He was terrible to start the year and he was rightfully benched. He was forced into action as a PG, which is not his natural position, and I thought Ty did a masterfull job of reigning him in to play that position and bringing him along in a way that he could be successfull. It was evident in Burks production and play that the message that was given to him had a positive impact on him as a player.

I think both of you may be correct and player development is more diverse an issue than can easily be quantified by one hypothesis. Its a balancing act between veterans who feel they have earned time by past acolades, work and sweat, vs. realizing the team will only progress if everyone improves. Every team have player's who feel they merit more game time, likewise, they have fans who feel this player or that player deserves more or needs more playing time to progress.

Bell is a prime example of a veteran with entitlement issues. Burks, Kanter, Favors all made improvements this year. I personally think most folks have become too impatient with the players and coaches, for any number of reasons. Take these three as an example. Burks and Kanter have already played with two different starting Point Guards notwithstanding their short stint in the league. Favors has played for two teams, with different offenses, and coaching strategies, PGs etc. While many folks think they have a grasp of NBA Offenses, and Defenses, the reality is both are much more complex than most of us realize.

Growth starts with a foundation of consistency. These players may not have improved as fast as we'd like, but they are improving, getting better, developing weak areas of their game. I too would love a Championship, but I'm realistic enough to know the Jazz believe in building towards one. We may very well have the talent to earn one, but its going to take some time. This is why I wouldn't mind the Jazz staying pat, unless they could land Chris Paul. Identify where we are in a year after riding with our young players, then bringing in the help we need in a year from now. With this strategy it will take two or three or maybe even four years to realistically have a shot at Championship.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Tue May 21, 2013 4:50 pm

ptaz66 wrote:


I think both of you may be correct and player development is more diverse an issue than can easily be quantified by one hypothesis. Its a balancing act between veterans who feel they have earned time by past acolades, work and sweat, vs. realizing the team will only progress if everyone improves. Every team have player's who feel they merit more game time, likewise, they have fans who feel this player or that player deserves more or needs more playing time to progress.

Bell is a prime example of a veteran with entitlement issues. Burks, Kanter, Favors all made improvements this year. I personally think most folks have become too impatient with the players and coaches, for any number of reasons. Take these three as an example. Burks and Kanter have already played with two different starting Point Guards notwithstanding their short stint in the league. Favors has played for two teams, with different offenses, and coaching strategies, PGs etc. While many folks think they have a grasp of NBA Offenses, and Defenses, the reality is both are much more complex than most of us realize.

Growth starts with a foundation of consistency. These players may not have improved as fast as we'd like, but they are improving, getting better, developing weak areas of their game. I too would love a Championship, but I'm realistic enough to know the Jazz believe in building towards one. We may very well have the talent to earn one, but its going to take some time. This is why I wouldn't mind the Jazz staying pat, unless they could land Chris Paul. Identify where we are in a year after riding with our young players, then bringing in the help we need in a year from now. With this strategy it will take two or three or maybe even four years to realistically have a shot at Championship.

Nice post ptaz. I agree, short of a Chris Paul and some overlooked cheap talent (think DC type), I hope the Jazz stand pat. Play with the draft picks if that helps them move to a player they really want (PG most likely), but go at this for the longer haul, timed to peak with Fav/Enes/GH's early-mid careers. we all are assuming that it will be easy to re-sign those three but it very well could be costly and/or harder than we think. For example, I think both Kanter and Hay could flash All-star potential next year, (doesn't mean they will become ones), and if I'm their agent I'm looking to get those guys mad money. Plus, if I'm those guys, I really would have to gut-check whether I wanted to go with Ty for the foreseeable future and be constantly "playing from behind" on a small market team with a limited budget to collect the right pieces.
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Tue May 21, 2013 5:59 pm

MTJazz wrote:
ptaz66 wrote:


I think both of you may be correct and player development is more diverse an issue than can easily be quantified by one hypothesis. Its a balancing act between veterans who feel they have earned time by past acolades, work and sweat, vs. realizing the team will only progress if everyone improves. Every team have player's who feel they merit more game time, likewise, they have fans who feel this player or that player deserves more or needs more playing time to progress.

Bell is a prime example of a veteran with entitlement issues. Burks, Kanter, Favors all made improvements this year. I personally think most folks have become too impatient with the players and coaches, for any number of reasons. Take these three as an example. Burks and Kanter have already played with two different starting Point Guards notwithstanding their short stint in the league. Favors has played for two teams, with different offenses, and coaching strategies, PGs etc. While many folks think they have a grasp of NBA Offenses, and Defenses, the reality is both are much more complex than most of us realize.

Growth starts with a foundation of consistency. These players may not have improved as fast as we'd like, but they are improving, getting better, developing weak areas of their game. I too would love a Championship, but I'm realistic enough to know the Jazz believe in building towards one. We may very well have the talent to earn one, but its going to take some time. This is why I wouldn't mind the Jazz staying pat, unless they could land Chris Paul. Identify where we are in a year after riding with our young players, then bringing in the help we need in a year from now. With this strategy it will take two or three or maybe even four years to realistically have a shot at Championship.

Nice post ptaz. I agree, short of a Chris Paul and some overlooked cheap talent (think DC type), I hope the Jazz stand pat. Play with the draft picks if that helps them move to a player they really want (PG most likely), but go at this for the longer haul, timed to peak with Fav/Enes/GH's early-mid careers. we all are assuming that it will be easy to re-sign those three but it very well could be costly and/or harder than we think. For example, I think both Kanter and Hay could flash All-star potential next year, (doesn't mean they will become ones), and if I'm their agent I'm looking to get those guys mad money. Plus, if I'm those guys, I really would have to gut-check whether I wanted to go with Ty for the foreseeable future and be constantly "playing from behind" on a small market team with a limited budget to collect the right pieces.

Thats why i think jazz resign big Al for a two year deal and then we have our three man rotation. Evans is stuck with being forth of the bench then Rookie big learning. Saving money in hopes we have a couple stars when the dust settles is wise. Now lets go win the draft! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: [BLOG] On Game Minutes and Player Development   Wed May 22, 2013 6:12 pm

I think every player is different, some might not want to be thrown to the lions right away, and some might be thrust into early playing time like Wes Matthews. John Stockton didn't play as much his first couple of years because he was playing behind an All-Star, was his growth helped or stunted, we'll never know. D Will sure thought he was being cheated by Sloan not throwing him in there immediately.
I would have liked to have seen more development from Corbin based on how the player was playing from game to game or even quarter to quarter. I'll never figure out what happened to DC going from being very productive to being put on the bench for games at a time. Little examples like Favors getting 23 and 15 through 3 qurters then not playing the fourth and overtime.
The stats might not have supported Burks improving from his first to second year, but from what I saw he improved a lot, playing more within his game, being asked to move to PG for stretch's of time was big, also I think Hayward went through the same type transition from his first to second year because I think the coach's defined a different kind of role for him.
I hope the team committs to playing these guys for a whole year and then decide where they all stand.
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