The Starters.

So, "Yucca Man" from SLC Dunk, has this article about how our starters (some of them) are not just bad, but HISTORICALLY bad.

Specifically, Tinsley, who is a Top 10 Bad PG over the last 30 years, and the worst PG in the league (better than Watson though!).
Marvin Williams, the Semi-Invisible Man, who is widely recognized as the worst starting SF in the league.
Foye, who contributes...ummm...3 pointers, and nothing but 3 pointers, when he makes them, and nothing when he misses them.

Sure, the Clippers game was pretty clear-cut evidence, a combined 0-9 with 0 points in 50 combined minutes, which is about 24 minutes less than their usual run. (Not that anyone really believes Corbin is tying minutes to production. Why would he start now??) But the pattern of early deficits, the stirring 2nd quarter rallies, the repeated re-granting of deficits in the 3rd quarter, the stirring 2nd team rallies, the starters giving away leads in the 4th quarter...the OBVIOUS...nay, GLARINGLY OBVIOUS aspect of the pattern here, is that our starting unit is not good.

There I said it. Millsap and Jefferson are good. No avoiding that. That's proven fact. They're not perfect, but they're both damn good players. But we are starting the worst starters in the league at two positions and Foye has never been able to win a starting job despite considerable buzz coming out of college (7th overall pick, by the Celts in 2006). That's a handicap, and one our young second unit can't and shouldn't be asked to, overcome.

Last line of the article?

"The team would be better this season and in seasons to come if Tyrone Corbin could just stop the absurdity and bench the vets that can't play basketball at an NBA level.

If only..."

Is tonight the night this changes?? Is it too late in the season to fix this?? How incredible is the Jazz record, given the handicaps they've been playing with? Hell, I dunno...

This was the last straw. Corbins "big" change in the lineup "coaching move" was to insert Watson for Tinsely......I cannot believe this.

At this point, I'm just hoping rotoworld is wrong. This is pathetic. All the signs are there to remove Marvin, insert DC and leave everything else as it is. And Corbin decides Watson is the answer.......I can't do it anymore, just....can't.....do it.

I'm seriously wondering what Earl Watson has on Corbin that keeps him getting playing time. Compromising pictures? Damning evidence? Are they secret lovers?

It's got to be something, because Watson is literally the worst player on the team, and has been for two full years now. This is just mind blowingly frustrating to watch.

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm seriously wondering what Earl Watson has on Corbin that keeps him getting playing time. Compromising pictures? Damning evidence? Are they secret lovers?

It's got to be something, because Watson is literally the worst player on the team, and has been for two full years now. This is just mind blowingly frustrating to watch.

Burks should be the starting PG. I don't see the point of starting Watson or JT and giving the important minutes to Alec. Corbin needs to get his shit together.

The starting lineup should be Al, Paul, Hayward, DC and Burkes. Pretty simple if you ask me!

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm seriously wondering what Earl Watson has on Corbin that keeps him getting playing time. Compromising pictures? Damning evidence? Are they secret lovers?

It's got to be something, because Watson is literally the worst player on the team, and has been for two full years now. This is just mind blowingly frustrating to watch.

Yep.

I dont see why Tinsley was sat. Corbin was 100% saying that Jamal was the issue, lets try something else there. NOT the problem at all.

And now, because Marvin finally scored some points, Corbin wont see it at all.
Or, did he? I mean, Marv and the others didn't play after the half basically.....Corbin has been killing me this year. Literally, I think I'm going gray.

Geeeeezus, even Marvin knows it!!
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/55899630-87/williams-tinsley-corbin-jazz.html.csp

Interesting.....
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/55896032-87/jazz-williams-hayward-sltrib.html.csp

guess there's still hope.

Good job Kragthorpe:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/55900120-87/jazz-pierce-celtics-boston.html.csp


My personal hope for next game.

DC STARTS!!!! (nothing new, going on 11 months of that broken record now....)
Tinsely starts. Yes, keep him starting. He doesn't screw up, Burks is better off the bench still in my opinion.
Foye starts. He gets shots because of Tinsely's controlling the offense, and Al down low. This is a good thing.
Gordo still 6th man.
Marv gets like 15mins.

Al/Paul/Gordo/DC get the most minutes.
Favors/Foye/Burks all 20 plus.
Marv, Tinsley and Kanter battle for most minutes, with Kanter winning by a landslide.

I like Kragthorpe's phrase "Corbin's curious coaching decisions" to describe starting Watson. Yeah, no doubt, curious. Corbin simply does not have any balls by trying something like starting Burks or DC. Instead he tries something non-dramatic, non-game changing and/or arguably stupid. It wasn't lost on us fans watching that game that once again, it was the young guns who kept us in it and dug out of holes; this time logging lots of minutes against the C's starters.

Corbin is beginning to cement himself in the Sloan-grade cement of inflexibility, riding hands that aren't working because "starters don't lose their slots simply because they suck, they are veterans and deserve the respect, no matter how they play". And seriously, Watson is somehow an upgrade over Tinsley? Watson of the 2 pts, 2 assists and 4 turn overs in 20 minutes last night? Tinsley may not be much for scoring but he always does well with assist to turnover ratio.

Hats off to Marv for not sucking last night - he now has cemented his starting slot for the rest of the season

MTJazz wrote:

I like Kragthorpe's phrase "Corbin's curious coaching decisions" to describe starting Watson. Yeah, no doubt, curious. Corbin simply does not have any balls by trying something like starting Burks or DC. Instead he tries something non-dramatic, non-game changing and/or arguably stupid. It wasn't lost on us fans watching that game that once again, it was the young guns who kept us in it and dug out of holes; this time logging lots of minutes against the C's starters.

Corbin is beginning to cement himself in the Sloan-grade cement of inflexibility, riding hands that aren't working because "starters don't lose their slots simply because they suck, they are veterans and deserve the respect, no matter how they play". And seriously, Watson is somehow an upgrade over Tinsley? Watson of the 2 pts, 2 assists and 4 turn overs in 20 minutes last night? Tinsley may not be much for scoring but he always does well with assist to turnover ratio.

Hats off to Marv for not sucking last night - he now has cemented his starting slot for the rest of the season

Well someone posted a story earlier that quoted Corbin complaining about having to fight for a spot with young guys coming in. I didn't really think it was something that was effecting his coaching decision at the time, but it sure seems like it is!

MTJazz wrote:

And seriously, Watson is somehow an upgrade over Tinsley? Watson of the 2 pts, 2 assists and 4 turn overs in 20 minutes last night?

To me, what was worse than Earl's stat line, was that Avery Bradley dominated Earl like he was an all-time-great PG. I know that NBA players will get hot from time to time, but Earl's greatest asset used to be his defense, which injuries & father-time have completely taken away from him. Earl is a coach (and possibly a very good one), not a player anymore.

Romoholic wrote:

Well someone posted a story earlier that quoted Corbin complaining about having to fight for a spot with young guys coming in. I didn't really think it was something that was effecting his coaching decision at the time, but it sure seems like it is!

Sadly, I think that discussion was more than prescient...Corbin still has a chip on his shoulder after being a journeyman and losing minutes to younger developing players. One would think this was a player turned coach thing, but you look around the league at guys like Del Negro, Mark Jackson, Nate MacMillan, Doc Rivers - they didn't seem to have this issue - but....its probably because they weren't insecure former journeymen!

This about does it for me on Corbin. He's got his own agenda, and its NOT the agenda that "whatever is most successful, we'll do". This is turning into a maddeningly frustrating season, and possible late season swoon.

Great article here.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/2/26/4031360/the-downbeat-hes-nobody-to-me-edition

One that sticks out like a fat man on a unicycle...

Q: Coach, this has been the second straight game where all of your starters were in the minus in the plus/minus–
Tyrone Corbin (interrupting): Whatever plus/minus is. However you want to look at it.
Q: Any thoughts on making changes to the starting lineup?
Corbin: I mixed it up tonight. Earl [Watson] started.
Q: Any thoughts on inserting Alec Burks or Gordon Hayward into the starting lineup?
Corbin: No.

Also from this article, "Look at those numbers. First of all Demarre Carroll should not be a lineup casualty. " Everybody sees it now, not just me now and all of the jazznationforum folk. Corbin is bullheaded and creating losses.

Unreal. If Corbin doesn't see the error that is Marvin, and DC and he flip flop minutes, I'm on record now for letting him go. He can't balance a team to save his life.

Mutangclan wrote:

This about does it for me on Corbin. He's got his own agenda, and its NOT the agenda that "whatever is most successful, we'll do". This is turning into a maddeningly frustrating season, and possible late season swoon.

Great article here.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/2/26/4031360/the-downbeat-hes-nobody-to-me-edition

One that sticks out like a fat man on a unicycle...

Q: Coach, this has been the second straight game where all of your starters were in the minus in the plus/minus–
Tyrone Corbin (interrupting): Whatever plus/minus is. However you want to look at it.
Q: Any thoughts on making changes to the starting lineup?
Corbin: I mixed it up tonight. Earl [Watson] started.
Q: Any thoughts on inserting Alec Burks or Gordon Hayward into the starting lineup?
Corbin: No.

Also from this article, "Look at those numbers. First of all Demarre Carroll should not be a lineup casualty. " Everybody sees it now, not just me now and all of the jazznationforum folk. Corbin is bullheaded and creating losses.

Unreal. If Corbin doesn't see the error that is Marvin, and DC and he flip flop minutes, I'm on record now for letting him go. He can't balance a team to save his life.

Here'se the thing though, Corbin knows, and he's actually already changin the rotation.

Demarre played more minutes than both Marvin and Foye agains the Celtics, and Marvin wasn't playing that bad.

Against the Clippers Burks, Hayward, and Foye played almost the whole 4th quarter. Against the Celtics it was DC, Burks, and Hayward. Corbin KNOWS who is playing well and who isn't, and he's playing the right guys when it matters.

I don't know, I was ready to eviscerate Corbin for his rotational decisions, but the more I look at it the more I see good things along with the bad.

My biggest beef is still with DC's minutes. I think starting him, don't care if it is for Marvin or Foye, just makes sense on so many levels. I don't think Burks should start, Hayward could but I'd worry about messing with a good thing, and Demarre is everything that first unit needs.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

This about does it for me on Corbin. He's got his own agenda, and its NOT the agenda that "whatever is most successful, we'll do". This is turning into a maddeningly frustrating season, and possible late season swoon.

Great article here.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/2/26/4031360/the-downbeat-hes-nobody-to-me-edition

One that sticks out like a fat man on a unicycle...

Q: Coach, this has been the second straight game where all of your starters were in the minus in the plus/minus–
Tyrone Corbin (interrupting): Whatever plus/minus is. However you want to look at it.
Q: Any thoughts on making changes to the starting lineup?
Corbin: I mixed it up tonight. Earl [Watson] started.
Q: Any thoughts on inserting Alec Burks or Gordon Hayward into the starting lineup?
Corbin: No.

Also from this article, "Look at those numbers. First of all Demarre Carroll should not be a lineup casualty. " Everybody sees it now, not just me now and all of the jazznationforum folk. Corbin is bullheaded and creating losses.

Unreal. If Corbin doesn't see the error that is Marvin, and DC and he flip flop minutes, I'm on record now for letting him go. He can't balance a team to save his life.

Here'se the thing though, Corbin knows, and he's actually already changin the rotation.

Demarre played more minutes than both Marvin and Foye agains the Celtics, and Marvin wasn't playing that bad.

Against the Clippers Burks, Hayward, and Foye played almost the whole 4th quarter. Against the Celtics it was DC, Burks, and Hayward. Corbin KNOWS who is playing well and who isn't, and he's playing the right guys when it matters.

I don't know, I was ready to eviscerate Corbin for his rotational decisions, but the more I look at it the more I see good things along with the bad.

My biggest beef is still with DC's minutes. I think starting him, don't care if it is for Marvin or Foye, just makes sense on so many levels. I don't think Burks should start, Hayward could but I'd worry about messing with a good thing, and Demarre is everything that first unit needs.

Already...... It's been like this for how long now?? I've been saying the same thing since November.....This should have been happening 2 months ago, not when it gets to this point. And he plays those guys more the last two games, but he basically emasculated Foye along the way now when he also could have been contributing playing him with Foye. And inserting Watson instead.....ugh. Corbin takes two steps forward by making a change, but takes 3 steps back by changing the wrong thing.

Thats my point, that DC is what everyone needs. Keeping Foye in there would give him even better looks, because DC crashes the glass, and keeps moving. Verses Marv who just stands there. Dont sit Foye now, just sit Marv!!

Great that Burks, Gordo and DC getting more minutes. But it's not playing them when it matters, its closer to playing them when it's too late. It's gotta be throughout the game. These vet teams are too good in their execution down the stretch for our young guys to put up a fight. We need all game to get a cushion, not do a crazy last 5 minutes.

Its got to be Marv out of the starting rotation and DC in. DC would help everybody in that starting 5, to include Foye. It would balance it out.
And I vote Tinsely back in the starting 5 btw.
We'll see tonight I guess.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

This about does it for me on Corbin. He's got his own agenda, and its NOT the agenda that "whatever is most successful, we'll do". This is turning into a maddeningly frustrating season, and possible late season swoon.

Great article here.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/2/26/4031360/the-downbeat-hes-nobody-to-me-edition

One that sticks out like a fat man on a unicycle...

Q: Coach, this has been the second straight game where all of your starters were in the minus in the plus/minus–
Tyrone Corbin (interrupting): Whatever plus/minus is. However you want to look at it.
Q: Any thoughts on making changes to the starting lineup?
Corbin: I mixed it up tonight. Earl [Watson] started.
Q: Any thoughts on inserting Alec Burks or Gordon Hayward into the starting lineup?
Corbin: No.

Also from this article, "Look at those numbers. First of all Demarre Carroll should not be a lineup casualty. " Everybody sees it now, not just me now and all of the jazznationforum folk. Corbin is bullheaded and creating losses.

Unreal. If Corbin doesn't see the error that is Marvin, and DC and he flip flop minutes, I'm on record now for letting him go. He can't balance a team to save his life.

Here'se the thing though, Corbin knows, and he's actually already changin the rotation.

Demarre played more minutes than both Marvin and Foye agains the Celtics, and Marvin wasn't playing that bad.

Against the Clippers Burks, Hayward, and Foye played almost the whole 4th quarter. Against the Celtics it was DC, Burks, and Hayward. Corbin KNOWS who is playing well and who isn't, and he's playing the right guys when it matters.

I don't know, I was ready to eviscerate Corbin for his rotational decisions, but the more I look at it the more I see good things along with the bad.

My biggest beef is still with DC's minutes. I think starting him, don't care if it is for Marvin or Foye, just makes sense on so many levels. I don't think Burks should start, Hayward could but I'd worry about messing with a good thing, and Demarre is everything that first unit needs.

Already...... It's been like this for how long now?? I've been saying the same thing since November.....This should have been happening 2 months ago, not when it gets to this point. And he plays those guys more the last two games, but he basically emasculated Foye along the way now when he also could have been contributing playing him with Foye. And inserting Watson instead.....ugh. Corbin takes two steps forward by making a change, but takes 3 steps back by changing the wrong thing.

Thats my point, that DC is what everyone needs. Keeping Foye in there would give him even better looks, because DC crashes the glass, and keeps moving. Verses Marv who just stands there. Dont sit Foye now, just sit Marv!!

Great that Burks, Gordo and DC getting more minutes. But it's not playing them when it matters, its closer to playing them when it's too late. It's gotta be throughout the game. These vet teams are too good in their execution down the stretch for our young guys to put up a fight. We need all game to get a cushion, not do a crazy last 5 minutes.

Its got to be Marv out of the starting rotation and DC in. DC would help everybody in that starting 5, to include Foye. It would balance it out.
And I vote Tinsely back in the starting 5 btw.
We'll see tonight I guess.

Foye has been playing like butt lately, he emasculated himself, don't forget that before Marvin was the subject of our ire it was Foye who we were screaming needed to be out of the starting lineup.

I get it , I get the frustration here because I feel it myself. Still I am often reminded that these are the same criticizms that A LOT of people had (and still have) about Doc Rivers. Celtics fans wanted him fired pretty much right up to the point were they won the NBA finals, for almost all of the same reasons. Paint by numbers substitutions, poor clock management, underutilization of young players...any of that sounding familiar?

This is the thing that I've noticed, especially lately, is that Corbin really is making adjustments in game and giving the minutes to the guys who are playing well. I'm not arguing that Corbins "adjustment" to the starting lienup wasn't stupid, and I'm not saying I like all of what he is doing, but one thing that as I look back I feel that Corbin has consistently done is make adjustments to his in game rotation to give guys that are playing better more minutes.

It's an interesting paradox with him, he seems doggedly, stupidly, dedicated to getting veterans that he likes minutes. Early in game he has set minutes and he seems to insist that these veterans play regardless of thier contribution. Watson, Marvin, Foye, Josh Howard, Bell (untill he fell out of favor), all these guys go through stretches where they play minutes they simply don't deserve, for some of them that is their entire career with the Jazz.

At the same time, he is more than willing to ride the hot hand in the 4th quarter, more than willing to bench those same guys for almost the entire second half if they aren't getting it done. I remember loving that about him last year when Hayard really started to come on and Harris started playing better. He's done it with Favors and Millsap when Millsap was struggling, and he's been finishing games with Burks at the point for several weeks now.

So I guess I'm having a tough time balancing these two things. The first thing is maddening and completely ridiculous, there is simply no good reason to force minutes on unproductive veterans, expecially when doing so is clearly hurting you, but it is also mitigated by the second thing, when the young guys are outplaying the vets the young guys get the burn. (and don't try to expand that to Favors and Kanter. Rare is the night, especially lately, that either of them outplay Jefferson or Millsap)

And what changed with Doc? What allowed him to turn those weaknesses into a championship? The simple answer is talent. But perhaps part of it was simply getting comfortable enough to be able to trust the right players to do the job.

First, what do you mean, Foye hasn't been playing like butt lately, he's been pretty consistent for what he is: a double digit scorer who stretches the floor with his 3pt shooting. He's had like 2 single digit games in like the last 25. And Foye would be better with the right combination of teammates on the floor.

It was Foye who I didn't like in the lineup, until I realized I was all wrong, that Marv was actually the problem. Foye is a floor balancer, but he needs his other proper teammates. Marv is a floor space taker-upper....

I think Corbin is getting WAY too much credit for riding the hot hand too. Thats just been very recently. As for Doc, correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont remember him every having his better players on the bench while lesser guys were starting.

Obviously we're mostly in agreement. But continually having terrible 1st and 3rd quarters is too much of an issue to try and fix later by making the proper changes AFTER it's a problem. Instead of starting on somewhat of a level playing field, the Jazz are consistently looking at an uphill battle.

Somewhat sidenote: With Burks in there against the Celtics when when we needed a bucket, and the Celtics were killing us on our pick and roll, and Burks being a new/young PG, why is Corbin not sending Hayward over in the corner to work a triangle to get the ball to Al? Instead, he leaves it up to Burks. He needed someone else to come over to maybe dump it into Al. But no.

Biggest problem is, with Corbins snail-like pace at making the proper changes, there's no way he'll do what needs to be done in time for this team to hold onto the 6th spot. Maybe not even the 8th. And this team really needs that 6th or 7th spot.

Not to mention:
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-130227/nba-ready-rise-fall-stretch-run

4. Which current West playoff team is most susceptible to a big drop off?


Foster: Utah. A negative point differential and a 22nd-ranked defensive efficiency mark aren't the traits of a typical playoff team, so it's not hard to imagine Utah's defense contributing to a late-season collapse. The lack of adjustments made by management and the coaching staff won't help, either.

Mutangclan wrote:

But continually having terrible 1st and 3rd quarters is too much of an issue to try and fix later by making the proper changes AFTER it's a problem. Instead of starting on somewhat of a level playing field, the Jazz are consistently looking at an uphill battle.

Yeah, but the Jazz getting in those holes has made the Jazz the #1 team in the league in winning games after trainling by 10+ points ..... and that's a good thing, right?

Pssst! Hey Ty! The Watson experiment isn't working. I know its subtle and we don't expect our coach to be a stats wiz, but a highly complicated metric that some "numbers guys" around the league are using to assess player contribution, called "points scored", is showing that Watson has scored zero points in two starts. In 48 minutes played. I know it is a crazy metric, but it is suggestive. And while further out there in metric-land, (PhD stat geek stuff), his assist:turnover ratio is 1, (yes, that means for each one assist he turned the ball over one time). Just sayin', there might be something to this moneyball thing.

Dear Coach of the Jazz, Tyrone-

Was Earl or Marv a part of the effort to come back tonight? No? Hmm. Were they any part of good basketball being playing tonight? No? Didnt think so. Last question: have they been a part of anything good all year? No? Didn't think so.

Ok, just checking, love the consistency.

Love,
Mutang

P.S. - Did you by chance see DC tonight? No? Didn't think so.

P.P.S. - Hey COACH, you know those stupid dumb idiotic +/- stats? Well guess who had the worst +/- tonight and guess who had the best.....

Hah, MT, great minds huh....

- Jazz roster answer to the FO keeping the team intact: 3 consecutive loses...
- Earl has been a negative from the Jazz ever since he "talked to his agent" last season...
- At some point this season I saw Ty improving his coaching performance; of couse I was wrong... the amount of stupidity displayed lately by our head coach is really annoying...
- Demarre not playing over Marvin is just offensive to Jazzland culture and intelligence...
- This has to be karma for all those years of Jazz fans calling Jerrry a stubborn...

outerspacefan wrote:

- Jazz roster answer to the FO keeping the team intact: 3 consecutive loses...
- Earl has been a negative from the Jazz ever since he "talked to his agent" last season...
- At some point this season I saw Ty improving his coaching performance; of couse I was wrong... the amount of stupidity displayed lately by our head coach is really annoying...
- Demarre not playing over Marvin is just offensive to Jazzland culture and intelligence...
- This has to be karma for all those years of Jazz fans calling Jerrry a stubborn...

I think the interesting thing here is that, if Jerry Sloan were still the head coach, he would be playing DeMarre Carroll big minutes, and probably starting him. Why do I say this? Because Jerry loved overachieving guys like DeMarre who came off of 10-day contracts and/or out of the second round. He loved guys who would play their tails off and serve as a role model for rookies who were high draft picks and had entitlement mindsets. Just look at the history...B. Russ, Shandon Anderson, Wes Matthews, Paul Millsap, just to name a few. Those guys seemed to resonate with Jerry, they got it. Now we see Ty in a similar situation with a guy like DeMarre Carroll and he doesn't quite seem to get it for whatever reason. This could be Ty's fatal flaw, that he can't overcome his need to get veteran guys their minutes while sacrificing the minutes of a DC.

That being said, I do agree with Magnus's comments above that Ty has recognized the need to play his best players more often, and he has shown some ability to adjust, but it doesn't seem to be innate in him. He's more reactive than proactive. This MAY have cost the Jazz some wins, though I'm not going to join the chorus of fans who think Ty is the main problem. The main problem, the glaringly obvious problem, is that the Jazz don't have a functional point guard. That is the main reason why the Jazz will not make the playoffs thus season.

This off-season is going to be one of the most interesting in Jazz history. Not only will they be forced to make numerous major personnel decisions, they are going to have to seriously contemplate what the future is for their coaching staff. I'd hate to see such a massive amount of discontinuity like that, but if the team regresses and doesn't even make the playoffs, there may not be a choice.

Here's two articles I found over at SLC dunk that help to shed light on the stuff we have been talking about....

This one is about the Jazz performance by quarter...

http://www.slcdunk.com/research-statistics-analytics/2013/2/28/4041790/utah-jazz-review-the-season-so-far-and-enumerating-our-first-quarter

I was fairly surprised to see how bad we have been in the 4th quarter.

I think it is interesting to note that there really isn't any significant difference in who plays what minutes from the 1st quarter to the 3rd. I went and checked it out at NBA.com and found that the starters are playing almost exactly hte same number of minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters, so why are first quarters so bad, while 3rd quarters are basically even?

The other thing I would note is that the minutes are pretty evenly distributed in the 4th quarter (Favors, Burks, and Hayward are the top 3 in total 4th quarter minutes played) and the Jazz are getting killed.


This second one is about the myth that the Jazz starters have worse +/- because they are playing against starters, and vice versa for the bench guys...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/2/27/4037864/utah-jazz-playing-time-vs-opposing-starters-looking-at-numbers-and

While I think playing against starters is a factor, it is not THE factor. A couple of things I would point out to further debunk the myth: Over the last 20 games Foye's time against starters has increased AND his +/- has actually improved. Millsap has started every game but one and played most of his time with the starting unit but is consistently among the best in overall +/-.

Great stuff form Stan Van Gundy at the SSAC, summarized here by andy larsen at SLCDunk

Quote :

Most importantly for the Jazz, Van Gundy took exception to the idea that young guys should get more playing time to better their development. If a player is just given playing time, Van Gundy argued, there's no teaching mechanism in place, and no incentive for a player to play smart basketball. He used the example of the Washington Wizards, and in particular, Andray Blatche and Javale McGee: two players who were immediately given playing time, but as a result, haven't bettered themselves to be intelligent players. Without the ability to change playing time, the players don't do as their coach instructs.

On the other hand, when a coach can use playing time to his advantage, a system can be run as designed. Van Gundy used the example of J.J. Redick, who started out as a poor defensive matchup player, owing to his size and speed. However, he implemented the defensive system so well (Van Gundy asserted that Redick never missed a rotation) that the team's defensive rating was excellent. Zarren and others agreed that defensive stats are impossible to measure well without a knowledge of the system that the individual team is using.


http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/4/4062054/sloan-sports-analytics-conference-day-2-bullets

This is the way I have alwasy felt about player development.

TheMagnus wrote:

While I think playing against starters is a factor, it is not THE factor. A couple of things I would point out to further debunk the myth: Over the last 20 games Foye's time against starters has increased AND his +/- has actually improved. Millsap has started every game but one and played most of his time with the starting unit but is consistently among the best in overall +/-.

Along those lines, and why I like Foye starting is directly correlated to Al Jefferson always starting as well. If Al is going to be the starting Center on this team, and leading scorer, than it makes the most sense for Foye to be out there with him, and vice-versa. They compliment each other.

To further balance this team, if we could JUST find a hustling, rebounding, tenacious defending, extra possession, open shot knock down shooting SF somewhere, we'd be set..........darn.

Mutangclan wrote:

Obviously we're mostly in agreement. But continually having terrible 1st and 3rd quarters is too much of an issue to try and fix later by making the proper changes AFTER it's a problem. Instead of starting on somewhat of a level playing field, the Jazz are consistently looking at an uphill battle.

The 3rd quarter thing may not be supported by season-long stats, biut that's sure as hell been my perception, and the fact of the matter recently:

Mil 17-30 (rest of game, Jass 91-79)
Cha 21-24 (rest of game, Jazz 77-44)
Atl 18-26 (rest of game, Jazz 73-76)
Bos 19-32 (rest of game, Jazz 88-78)
LAC 20-36 (rest of game, Jazz 74-71)

Just pointiin' out...