Gasol for Millsap?

aliveandkickin wrote:

More like mountains of BS to prove a point showing stats that TRY to convince ppl that Millsap is more valuable than Big Al. I guess the Jazz brass and NBA executivesare dumb to overpay Jefferson when they can get Sap for half his price. Keep pushing Sap and enjoy .500 ball buddy. He doesn't create miss-matches. He isn't outstanding at anything except trying hard. He's a great 6th man but not a difference-maker as a starter.
Question ..are you smarter than NBA executives that offer Jefferson more money?????
More homework ... come up with a mountain of data to show that Jefferson deserves a bigger contract ....that he'll get. I dare you to be objective.

I triple dog dare ya

Clearly you either didn't read the whole thing (can't blame you for that it was pretty long), or didn't understand it.

I didn't say anything about their relative value, I argued three very specific points that you didn't even mention, I didn't say Millsap was better overall than Jefferson, and I specifically said that Millsap was not a foundation player nor should he be treated or paid as such.

And you responded like a guy who has a learning disability and has nothing intelligent to say.

But regardless of your juvenile response I will take your dare. I only need one piece of data, and that is the "C" next to his name on his player card. The salaries of players are set by the market for their skills, and Centers are a valuable commodity in the NBA because you can't teach height. Centers that can score in the post like Jefferson can are even more coveted. A center than can rebound and play a little D but couldn't throw the ball in the ocean from the beach, or can score 20 points a game even though he's useless on D, is worth more than Millsap in the NBA simply because they are in such high demand.

Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Andrea Bragnani, Kendrick Perkins, Lamar Odom, Emeka Okafor, Nene...How much data do you want? I got more, but bottom line is that they are all Centers and they are all paid more than Millsap regardless of what they actually produce.

outerspacefan wrote:

Games are not stats.
You can be the most important dude of a game and at the end of it your stat sheet can look like $h|t. OTOH you can get a good line when you actually were a death body in the clutch and your team lost the game.

Sure... and the 1980's called, they want their copy of "Basketball for Dummies" back.

TheMagnus wrote:

Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Andrea Bragnani, Kendrick Perkins, Lamar Odom, Emeka Okafor, Nene...How much data do you want? I got more, but bottom line is that they are all Centers and they are all paid more than Millsap regardless of what they actually produce.

Good point. And btw, nice work on the mountain of data, glad I put you up to it because I enjoyed your post. I think your post also reminded me that the Jazz will be without either player next year due to market demands for proven highly skilled bigs at the peak of their careers and there consequent demands for a contract that locks them in at big bucks well into their decline, which the Jazz just aren't going to do. Just read a nice SI piece on baseball players where the stats guys have just figured out the return on investment is questionable at best for players at the peak of their careers if the player is not going to compliment a rotation that is just that one piece away from serious contention, because their productivity is definitely going to decline (without doping) over the contract period. In other words, a better investment might be in either new prospects or rising players. I see the Jazz doing this next year. Fact of the matter is they didn't even try to extend Al and Sap turned down their offer. I'm now convinced there will be a roster shuffle by Feb, probably sooner, and believe it or not I have reversed my guess and I think Al is odd man out due to his warranted or not higher price tag. Who knows, maybe Sap will stick around at a reasonable price/contract term if Al plus other Jazz assets is swapped for the potentially missing piece(s).

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Andrea Bragnani, Kendrick Perkins, Lamar Odom, Emeka Okafor, Nene...How much data do you want? I got more, but bottom line is that they are all Centers and they are all paid more than Millsap regardless of what they actually produce.

Good point. And btw, nice work on the mountain of data, glad I put you up to it because I enjoyed your post. I think your post also reminded me that the Jazz will be without either player next year due to market demands for proven highly skilled bigs at the peak of their careers and there consequent demands for a contract that locks them in at big bucks well into their decline, which the Jazz just aren't going to do. Just read a nice SI piece on baseball players where the stats guys have just figured out the return on investment is questionable at best for players at the peak of their careers if the player is not going to compliment a rotation that is just that one piece away from serious contention, because their productivity is definitely going to decline (without doping) over the contract period. In other words, a better investment might be in either new prospects or rising players. I see the Jazz doing this next year. Fact of the matter is they didn't even try to extend Al and Sap turned down their offer. I'm now convinced there will be a roster shuffle by Feb, probably sooner, and believe it or not I have reversed my guess and I think Al is odd man out due to his warranted or not higher price tag. Who knows, maybe Sap will stick around at a reasonable price/contract term if Al plus other Jazz assets is swapped for the potentially missing piece(s).

To be honest with you, I'm ok with trading them both. Favors and Kanter are the future, and we might have some growing pains with them as our starting bigs, but It will payoff in the future. I'm pretty sure we can get some very good assets for them now. It would be kinda stupid to let them both walk for nothing. At least get us some draft picks out of it. I don't want to take on anymore long vet contracts.

TheMagnus wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

Games are not stats.
You can be the most important dude of a game and at the end of it your stat sheet can look like $h|t. OTOH you can get a good line when you actually were a death body in the clutch and your team lost the game.

Sure... and the 1980's called, they want their copy of "Basketball for Dummies" back.

That was rude It seems you really don't like it when you can't sell your point of view

I just disagree with the notion that Millsap is a better contributor than Jefferson... and I'm starting to think about what's the reason that games are actually played ah... yes... games are not stats!

Romoholic wrote:

To be honest with you, I'm ok with trading them both....

I think I'm in this bandwagon too...

Credit where credit's due: Nice job with the numbers Mag Enlightening

outerspacefan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

Games are not stats.
You can be the most important dude of a game and at the end of it your stat sheet can look like $h|t. OTOH you can get a good line when you actually were a death body in the clutch and your team lost the game.

Sure... and the 1980's called, they want their copy of "Basketball for Dummies" back.

That was rude It seems you really don't like it when you can't sell your point of view

I just disagree with the notion that Millsap is a better contributor than Jefferson... and I'm starting to think about what's the reason that games are actually played

It wasn't meant to be as mean as it came across, so sorry about that, but when you and alive respond to a very detailed analysis with some over-simplistic generalities about how stat's don't really matter you sound like people who have let the realities of the way the game is managed, evaluated, and played in the 21st century pass you by. That was supposed to be a light-hearted dig at that, sorry it came off so badly.

Gasol isn't going anywhere according to this:

Gasol (knee) likely won't be dealt by the Lakers per an agreement the team made when they signed Steve Nash as a free agent, ESPN.com reports.

Recommendation: Nash signed with the Lakers on the condition the team wouldn't trade Gasol, so it would probably behoove GM Mitch Kupchak to keep the team's core intact. Gasol has looked out of place this season alongside Dwight Howard, averaging a career-low 12.6 points per game on 42 percent shooting. Gasol would almost certainly benefit from a change of scenery, but management would probably want to see if his performance picks up with Nash in the lineup before considering reneging on their promise to Nash.

(Rotowire.com)

So if Sap/Al are going, it probably (thankfully) won't be to the Lakers.

No need to be sorry about anything. It's a sport fan forum ; it's fun.

Of course stats matters... yet they're still not the games

And yes, I'm not a 21th century dude for sure... which I'm proud of I think

outerspacefan wrote:

Of course stats matters... yet they're still not the games

True, but in this case, as in most cases, the results reflect the story the stats are telling.

zero24gravity wrote:

Gasol isn't going anywhere according to this:

Gasol (knee) likely won't be dealt by the Lakers per an agreement the team made when they signed Steve Nash as a free agent, ESPN.com reports.

Recommendation: Nash signed with the Lakers on the condition the team wouldn't trade Gasol, so it would probably behoove GM Mitch Kupchak to keep the team's core intact. Gasol has looked out of place this season alongside Dwight Howard, averaging a career-low 12.6 points per game on 42 percent shooting. Gasol would almost certainly benefit from a change of scenery, but management would probably want to see if his performance picks up with Nash in the lineup before considering reneging on their promise to Nash.

(Rotowire.com)

So if Sap/Al are going, it probably (thankfully) won't be to the Lakers.

I saw a lot of those same quotes on NBA.com and thought they were pretty interesting. I'm sure the Lakers would like to make Nash happy-- but, they also want to keep Kobe happy. Kobe (despite his "big boy pants" comment on Pao) still seems to be in the Pao camp. I just don't know how long that will last. I wouldn't guarantee Pao will finish out the year as a Laker.

However, I really don't think the Lakers and Jazz would make a direct trade. As I said when I started this thread: this was what Houston fans were talking about during a Lakers/Rockets game. The Lakers and the Jazz don't have any history I can remember of making trades. If we were on good trading terms with the Lakers, we could have traded Fisher a few years ago-- rather than having to let him out of his contract (so he could then sign with the Lakers).

ESPN announcers were talking about Denver being a possibility for Pao-- but, who would Denver be able to give them? If the Lakers trade Pao for anyone, it would have to either be with the East, or overloaded with a "Now" for "the future" situation with a Western team-- like they pulled off with Memphis a few years ago.

TheMagnus wrote:

aliveandkickin wrote:

More like mountains of BS to prove a point showing stats that TRY to convince ppl that Millsap is more valuable than Big Al. I guess the Jazz brass and NBA executivesare dumb to overpay Jefferson when they can get Sap for half his price. Keep pushing Sap and enjoy .500 ball buddy. He doesn't create miss-matches. He isn't outstanding at anything except trying hard. He's a great 6th man but not a difference-maker as a starter.
Question ..are you smarter than NBA executives that offer Jefferson more money?????
More homework ... come up with a mountain of data to show that Jefferson deserves a bigger contract ....that he'll get. I dare you to be objective.

I triple dog dare ya

Clearly you either didn't read the whole thing (can't blame you for that it was pretty long), or didn't understand it.

I didn't say anything about their relative value, I argued three very specific points that you didn't even mention, I didn't say Millsap was better overall than Jefferson, and I specifically said that Millsap was not a foundation player nor should he be treated or paid as such.

And you responded like a guy who has a learning disability and has nothing intelligent to say.

But regardless of your juvenile response I will take your dare. I only need one piece of data, and that is the "C" next to his name on his player card. The salaries of players are set by the market for their skills, and Centers are a valuable commodity in the NBA because you can't teach height. Centers that can score in the post like Jefferson can are even more coveted. A center than can rebound and play a little D but couldn't throw the ball in the ocean from the beach, or can score 20 points a game even though he's useless on D, is worth more than Millsap in the NBA simply because they are in such high demand.

Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Andrea Bragnani, Kendrick Perkins, Lamar Odom, Emeka Okafor, Nene...How much data do you want? I got more, but bottom line is that they are all Centers and they are all paid more than Millsap regardless of what they actually produce.

My intelligent (and nonmyopic) point is you consistently say Millsap is a better fit for the Jazz when "Data" shows Jeffersons skillset is more in demand. That's plain and simple. Furthermore (since furthermore is kinda a big word used to depict a relevant forthcoming point) I'd pay 4 million more a yr to keep Jefferson than have a mountain of data showing Sap is worth being paid as a journeyman... I'm of the opinion after this yr, Big Al will make about 4 miilion more a yr than Millsap.

aliveandkickin wrote:

My intelligent (and nonmyopic) point is you consistently say Millsap is a better fit for the Jazz when "Data" shows Jeffersons skillset is more in demand. That's plain and simple. Furthermore (since furthermore is kinda a big word used to depict a relevant forthcoming point) I'd pay 4 million more a yr to keep Jefferson than have a mountain of data showing Sap is worth being paid as a journeyman... I'm of the opinion after this yr, Big Al will make about 4 miilion more a yr than Millsap.

Well that is my opinion, but it is not what I was trying to show with that data, nor what I said in reference to the data.

Jeffersons "skillset" (meaning his size, because without it he's just Carlos Boozer) may be in more demand in the NBA as whole, but if you believe in Favors and Kanter (or even think they are worth waiting to see) then it's not in demand for the Jazz, and it's certainly not worth 4 Million more a year.

So if you would just come out and just say that you don't think those guys are the answer, and that you think the Jazz should move forward with Jefferson as the core of the Jazz and the center of it's offensive strategy, then I would be cool to just agree to dissagree, because I'd say that is a valid strategy even though I think it is a losing one (I believe the words you used were "get used to .500 basketball").

But without that your argument simply makes no sense, because you are talking about paying Max or near max money to a Center that is litterally the exact same size as two promising young players, is terrible as a"rim protector", is not an elite scorer, and HAS to be the focus of the offense to be effective.

So please, please, setting my love for Millsap aside, explain to me why what you are saying makes any sense.

Update: you explained this on the other thread, so I'm good...

Saint Louis wrote:

I saw a lot of those same quotes on NBA.com and thought they were pretty interesting. I'm sure the Lakers would like to make Nash happy-- but, they also want to keep Kobe happy. Kobe (despite his "big boy pants" comment on Pao) still seems to be in the Pao camp. I just don't know how long that will last. I wouldn't guarantee Pao will finish out the year as a Laker.

However, I really don't think the Lakers and Jazz would make a direct trade. As I said when I started this thread: this was what Houston fans were talking about during a Lakers/Rockets game. The Lakers and the Jazz don't have any history I can remember of making trades. If we were on good trading terms with the Lakers, we could have traded Fisher a few years ago-- rather than having to let him out of his contract (so he could then sign with the Lakers).

ESPN announcers were talking about Denver being a possibility for Pao-- but, who would Denver be able to give them? If the Lakers trade Pao for anyone, it would have to either be with the East, or overloaded with a "Now" for "the future" situation with a Western team-- like they pulled off with Memphis a few years ago.

You've got an interesting point about the Jazz trading with the Lakers and Jazz as trade partners. I went and looked it up....

The last time the Jazz traded with the Lakers was 1979, when the Jazz actually made two seperate trades in about a month, the first sent Spencer Haywood to LA for Adrian Dantley, and the second sent a 1981 3rd round draft pick (Zam Fredrick) to LA for Ron Boone.

Maybe they're still mad about the fact that we flat out robbed them in both of those deals?


Or, they just felt like they owed us....

Another little known piece of Jazz history...

In 1976, when the Jazz were still in New Orleans, they made one of the most important trades in the history of the NBA.

It was effectively a sign and trade of Gail Goodrich, but back then it wasn't a sign and trade, it was more of a "we'll let you sign him if you make it worth our while" because of the way teams owned the players. This is what the deal looked like

The Jazz got 33 year old Gail Goodrich, a 1978 first round pick, and a 1977 second round pick. The Lakers got three Jazz first round draft picks from 1977-1979 and a second rounder in 1980.

Here what the deal ended up looking like...

Gail Goodrich, Jack Givens, and Essie Hollins for Kenny Carr, Freeman Williams, Sam Worthen, and...

Magic Johnson.

[deleted by moderator]

B. Liberation wrote:

Five pages to get some broken up...

Watch the racist stuff B, zero tolerance for that around here.