Jamaal Tinsley better for the Jazz than Mo Williams?

I know there has been a lot of hand wringing about not having Mo Williams, so I decided to look into it a little deeper and was surprised by what I found...

The Jazz are now 5-4 when Tinsley starts, 14-12 when he plays (2-5 when he doesn't). They are 11-13 when Mo starts.

The first unit of Foye, Williams, Jefferson, and Millsap has a +/- of -1.1 in 144 minutes when Tinsley starts.

That same unit has a +/- of -7.2 in 188 minutes when Mo starts.

Now I'm not saying that Tinsley is a better player than Mo, but the team appears to actualy play better when he is on the court. Especially with the first unit guys, Foye and Jefferson play SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER with Tinsley on the court instead of Williams. Jefferson shoots over 52% (vs. 46% with Mo) from the field AND shoots more free throws while Foye shoots almost 50% from the 3pt line and 45% from the field versus around 38% for both with Mo.

On top of that Tinsley has been really solid in his own play as a starter. I mean he had two really terrible games against the Warriors and Clippers, but overall as a starter he's shooting 49/40/75 while scoring 7 points and dishing 7 dimes in 29 minutes a game. That's not setting the world on fire, but at least he's not hurting the team with his play like the Jazz other healthy PG (I'm looking at you Watson).

I actually think the biggest setback here might not be losing Mo as the starter, but rather losing Tinsley as the backup. Now, Corbin was already screwing that up with his idiotic rotations, so that damage may have been inevitable, but given the results so far I think the Jazz may actualy be able to maintain the level of play they had with Mo Williams due to Tinsleys positive impact on other players performance. Unfortunately I think real improvement will only come when Corbin changes the way he is utilizing the players.

TheMagnus wrote:

I know there has been a lot of hand wringing about not having Mo Williams, so I decided to look into it a little deeper and was surprised by what I found...

The Jazz are now 5-4 when Tinsley starts, 14-12 when he plays (2-5 when he doesn't). They are 11-13 when Mo starts.

The first unit of Foye, Williams, Jefferson, and Millsap has a +/- of -1.1 in 144 minutes when Tinsley starts.

That same unit has a +/- of -7.2 in 188 minutes when Mo starts.

Now I'm not saying that Tinsley is a better player than Mo, but the team appears to actualy play better when he is on the court. Especially with the first unit guys, Foye and Jefferson play SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER with Tinsley on the court instead of Williams. Jefferson shoots over 52% (vs. 46% with Mo) from the field AND shoots more free throws while Foye shoots almost 50% from the 3pt line and 45% from the field versus around 38% for both with Mo.

On top of that Tinsley has been really solid in his own play as a starter. I mean he had two really terrible games against the Warriors and Clippers, but overall as a starter he's shooting 49/40/75 while scoring 7 points and dishing 7 dimes in 29 minutes a game. That's not setting the world on fire, but at least he's not hurting the team with his play like the Jazz other healthy PG (I'm looking at you Watson).

I actually think the biggest setback here might not be losing Mo as the starter, but rather losing Tinsley as the backup. Now, Corbin was already screwing that up with his idiotic rotations, so that damage may have been inevitable, but given the results so far I think the Jazz may actualy be able to maintain the level of play they had with Mo Williams due to Tinsleys positive impact on other players performance. Unfortunately I think real improvement will only come when Corbin changes the way he is utilizing the players.

I see what you are saying, and have thought about this same thing recently. Tinsley's "PG skills" are probably better than Mo, which is why other guys are better with Jamal. I also think that Mo & Foye are redundant together, but Foye is more useful with Tinsley since shooting has never been Jamal's strength.

I believe he is better FOR THE JAZZ for the system they run.

Tinsley's not playing and helping the Jazz better just because Corbin seems to feel obligated to Watson. If Coach let Tisnley establish himself as the next PG in line after Mo, he will contribute even more to his team.
Been saying it ever since Corbin forced the reinsertion of Watson over Tinsley last season. Big mistake.

Besides Watson seeing more than 4 minutes a game, I think the real problem now is that Jamaal is a complete liability on defense. I expect Dragic is licking his chops for tonight's game, fer instance. Opposing PG's can feast on the Jazz because every trip down the floor it is basically 4 on 5, or maybe 3.5 on 5 due to Al's lack of help D. Given how atrocious the PG situation is, ain't it about time to bust out the PG by committee ideas that are always floating but never implemented? Why not try Burks/Hayward as the second PG? That certainly could not suck worse than Watson!

MTJazz wrote:

Besides Watson seeing more than 4 minutes a game, I think the real problem now is that Jamaal is a complete liability on defense. I expect Dragic is licking his chops for tonight's game, fer instance. Opposing PG's can feast on the Jazz because every trip down the floor it is basically 4 on 5, or maybe 3.5 on 5 due to Al's lack of help D. Given how atrocious the PG situation is, ain't it about time to bust out the PG by committee ideas that are always floating but never implemented? Why not try Burks/Hayward as the second PG? That certainly could not suck worse than Watson!

Not disagreeing with you about Tinsley's defense, but I will give him credit for playing pretty well against the top PG in the league, Chris Paul.

MTJazz wrote:

Besides Watson seeing more than 4 minutes a game, I think the real problem now is that Jamaal is a complete liability on defense. I expect Dragic is licking his chops for tonight's game, fer instance. Opposing PG's can feast on the Jazz because every trip down the floor it is basically 4 on 5, or maybe 3.5 on 5 due to Al's lack of help D. Given how atrocious the PG situation is, ain't it about time to bust out the PG by committee ideas that are always floating but never implemented? Why not try Burks/Hayward as the second PG? That certainly could not suck worse than Watson!

This is something that if I hadn't seen the numbers, and then actually watched it closely in the last couple games, I would absolutely agree with. But the fact is that the team is actually as good or better defensively with him on the court versus Mo or Earl.

And you can't say it's because he's just playing with Favors and Kanter because over half of his minutes this season have come as the starting PG and Watson has played almost every minute with Favors and Kanter and overall the teams defensive rating with him is actually worse than it is when Tinsley is out there.

I was fairly impressed as I watched him in the last couple games, it's clear he's not as quick as most guys, but the guy just knows how to play the game, he knows how to position his body and make the right move at the right time.

Still, like I said before, Tinsley's impact on team based numbers defy all logic, he simply isn't that good individually, so how can his influence be so positive?

TheMagnus wrote:

Still, like I said before, Tinsley's impact on team based numbers defy all logic, he simply isn't that good individually, so how can his influence be so positive?

Beat's me. I mercifully didn't see the Clips games so I didn't see him looking good but glad he showed. Old cagey veteran ways can go a long ways, (see that guy named Nash, Kid or Stockton in his final years), but at the end of the day a young fast PG will always blow by the old horses on penetration much less picking up a guy and marking him on the break. I've always liked what Jamaal has brought to the Jazz, (and thought Corbin criminally underplayed him over Watson most of last year), just not as our starting PG. Its really amplified when Foye and Marvin have their every other night off because suddenly there is no ability to spread the floor and it becomes the Big Al show.

Tinsley were a HOF calibre guard had he ever been able to shoot the rock. His turrible defense is well made up for with his quick hands and intelligent help steals.