FIRE TYRONE CORBIN

This is a quote from Ty

“I tell the guys, 'You can listen to criticism, but most of the people that's criticizing don't have an idea of what you're going through. They probably haven't ever (done) anything at this level in their life. They can talk. Talk is cheap. We've got to go out and do what we've got to do."

So I guess because we haven't ever played in the NBA we don't know the game? I'm sorry, but that "you have never played the game so your opinion is irrelevant" has always been a cop out, by guys that don't have any answers and know the critics are right.

I'm so freaking over Corbin as coach of the Jazz!

Romoholic wrote:

This is a quote from Ty

“I tell the guys, 'You can listen to criticism, but most of the people that's criticizing don't have an idea of what you're going through. They probably haven't ever (done) anything at this level in their life. They can talk. Talk is cheap. We've got to go out and do what we've got to do."

So I guess because we haven't ever played in the NBA we don't know the game? I'm sorry, but that "you have never played the game so your opinion is irrelevant" has always been a cop out, by guys that don't have any answers and know the critics are right.

I'm so freaking over Corbin as coach of the Jazz!

Yeah, I was pretty insulted by that comment as well. And that was BEFORE the OKC game. Gee Ty, that "got to go out and what we've got to do" throw-away line is what your team did last night? "We done got to go out, show our white underbellies early, play with no sense of urgency and pride. People who don't play don't understand this is the way we fight for playoff spots. After the New York game, I done told them the very same thing."

Romoholic wrote:

This is a quote from Ty

“I tell the guys, 'You can listen to criticism, but most of the people that's criticizing don't have an idea of what you're going through. They probably haven't ever (done) anything at this level in their life. They can talk. Talk is cheap. We've got to go out and do what we've got to do."

So I guess because we haven't ever played in the NBA we don't know the game? I'm sorry, but that "you have never played the game so your opinion is irrelevant" has always been a cop out, by guys that don't have any answers and know the critics are right.

I'm so freaking over Corbin as coach of the Jazz!

First off, I agree with Ty completely in the quote you've provided.

Second, Ty was right-- it doesn't matter if other coaches have used the same line as a "cop-out." We don't know the situations as well as Ty, or most any other coach in the NBA. We're certainly entitled to our opinion, but, we don't know what they know. And, why would Ty, as a coach encourage a player to pay attention to fans spouting off their opinions on blogs. Should Ty tell Marvin Williams that the fans on forumotion.com's Jazz site think he sucks, so he should fake an injury so the Jazz can move on without him?

Compared to Ty (collectively) we're a bunch of idiots (probably including both me and you). You and others can be offended if you want, but that doesn't make you more correct than Ty. I'm not saying Ty should be our coach for the future, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want anyone who has ever posted on this site in Ty's place (including me).

Saint Louis wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

This is a quote from Ty

“I tell the guys, 'You can listen to criticism, but most of the people that's criticizing don't have an idea of what you're going through. They probably haven't ever (done) anything at this level in their life. They can talk. Talk is cheap. We've got to go out and do what we've got to do."

So I guess because we haven't ever played in the NBA we don't know the game? I'm sorry, but that "you have never played the game so your opinion is irrelevant" has always been a cop out, by guys that don't have any answers and know the critics are right.

I'm so freaking over Corbin as coach of the Jazz!

First off, I agree with Ty completely in the quote you've provided.

Second, Ty was right-- it doesn't matter if other coaches have used the same line as a "cop-out." We don't know the situations as well as Ty, or most any other coach in the NBA. We're certainly entitled to our opinion, but, we don't know what they know. And, why would Ty, as a coach encourage a player to pay attention to fans spouting off their opinions on blogs. Should Ty tell Marvin Williams that the fans on forumotion.com's Jazz site think he sucks, so he should fake an injury so the Jazz can move on without him?

Compared to Ty (collectively) we're a bunch of idiots (probably including both me and you). You and others can be offended if you want, but that doesn't make you more correct than Ty. I'm not saying Ty should be our coach for the future, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want anyone who has ever posted on this site in Ty's place (including me).

I'd take Bosnian Mafia over Ty.

Nice article from SLCDunk defending Ty, and thowing Big Al under the bus...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/15/4107252/in-defense-of-ty-what-if-its-all-als-fault

andylarsen wrote:

While Zach Lowe's recent Grantland article blames both Ty's scheming and Jefferson's lack of ability for the Jazz' defensive woes, what if it's just Al Jefferson at fault?

...


Let's figure it out. If we were to run a scientific experiment in a lab in order to tease out what was causing the Jazz' defensive struggles this season between Al Jefferson and Ty Corbin's system, we'd want to set up 3 different test groups:

●the Jazz with Corbin and Jefferson,
●the Jazz with Jefferson and no Corbin,
●and the Jazz with Corbin and no Jefferson.

Then, we'd see which of the latter two groups displayed the most improvement from the first. Amazingly, we've actually had a chance to test out all three groups with the Utah Jazz! Let's actually do this study, then, and take a look at our results.

The Jazz with Corbin and Jefferson

This setup has gotten the majority of the minutes of the last 2 years, and there's a lot of evidence saying the Jazz are a bad defensive team. In 2011-12, the Jazz ranked 19th in the league by defensive rating, and this season, they've gotten even worse, to be ranked 22nd. In 2011-12, the Jazz gave up a 104.4 defensive rating when Al Jefferson was in the game, and again, this season is worse: the Jazz give up a 108.3 defensive rating with Jefferson on the floor.


That's really bad. A 108.3 defensive rating would put the Jazz as the 3rd worst defensive team in the NBA this year, only ahead of the Bobcats and Kings. So, how do we improve? Let's look at the other groups.


The Jazz with Jefferson and no Corbin

The Al Jefferson and Ty Corbin era didn't start simultaneously. There were a few months in which Jerry Sloan coached a team with Al Jefferson, though he wasn't the first option like he is on the current Jazz. Still, on defense, Jefferson played about the same number of minutes as he does now.


Using NBA.com's stat tool, I can actually apply the splits to look at only the portion of the 2010-2011 season Jerry Sloan coached. In those 54 games before the fateful day of Sloan's resignation, when Al Jefferson was on the floor, the defensive rating for the Jazz was 107.9. Again, that's a really high number, and even in Jerry Sloan's defensive system, the Jazz really struggled with Al: that 107.9 defensive rating would be the 5th worst of any team in that 2010-11 season. In short, it doesn't look like there's a significant difference in results defensively between the two coaches when Al Jefferson is on the floor.


The Jazz with Corbin and no Jefferson

This test group, however, shows a different story. The Jazz actually have quite a good defense in the last two seasons when Al Jefferson sits. In the 2011-12 season with Jefferson on the bench, the Jazz have a 102.2 defensive rating. In this 2012-13 season, the Jazz have become even better without Jefferson on the floor, giving up just 98.0 points per 100 possessions. In a imaginary team without Al, the Jazz would actually rank as the 3rd best defensive team in the league, behind only Memphis and Indiana!


That's actually incredibly impressive, especially given Zach Lowe's point that "young players are notoriously slow to grasp the rules of complex NBA defense". Maybe there's nothing wrong with Ty's mix-and-match defensive system at all, it's just the influence of Big Al completely destroying any defensive scheme he happens to be in.

...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/15/4107252/in-defense-of-ty-what-if-its-all-als-fault

He goes on to address some of the most obvious critiques of his conclusion, I'd definitely recommend reading the whole article. He concludes with this...

andylarsen wrote:

Still, though, I think the evidence is pretty clear here: the defense is not Ty's fault, it's actually mostly Al Jefferson's. Given this, it probably makes sense to give Corbin at least a season without Big Al to discover his defensive system without being hamstrung by such a poor defensive player. Firing him until them would simply be rash, and possibly wasteful of Corbin's potential to be a good defensive coach, a big asset in today's NBA.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/15/4107252/in-defense-of-ty-what-if-its-all-als-fault

I'm not sure that I really agree with that conclusion, there is a great deal more than defensive schemes to be disspointed in Corbin for, in fact his defensive scheme is probably not even in my top 5 list of reasons why I don't like him as a coach, but I respect the well reasoned analysis and completely agree about Jefferson.

I also think the point about being a good defensive coach is interesting, is it possible that is one of Corbins real strengths and it has just been hidden under the gigantic albatross that is Al Jefferson? hmmmm...

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm not sure that I really agree with that conclusion, there is a great deal more than defensive schemes to be disspointed in Corbin for, in fact his defensive scheme is probably not even in my top 5 list of reasons why I don't like him as a coach, but I respect the well reasoned analysis and completely agree about Jefferson.

I was going to respond with this same message.

Last I knew there were 5 players on the court who are supposed to be playing defense, helping each other out. Yes, Al is below average at his position, but he also isn't responsible for closing out on opponents wing shooters, (who party on the Jazz at will) or divert the opposing PG into help D rather than serenade into the paint starting well outside the 3 point line in for a layup or dish out. Handing Al the responsibility for making the Jazz one of the worst defensive teams in the league is a huge stretch. As a team, whether poor scheme or poor individual effort, the Jazz suck on D. And speaking of schemes, did anyone notice how just about every coach in the league has been able to take the Jazz out of their offensive sets? Same thing happened to Jerry - it became too easy to defend. OKC went clinical on the Jazz, by the players own admission constantly taking them out of their spots and playing glued to their chests.

MTJazz wrote:

Last I knew there were 5 players on the court who are supposed to be playing defense, helping each other out. Yes, Al is below average at his position, but he also isn't responsible for closing out on opponents wing shooters, (who party on the Jazz at will) or divert the opposing PG into help D rather than serenade into the paint starting well outside the 3 point line in for a layup or dish out. Handing Al the responsibility for making the Jazz one of the worst defensive teams in the league is a huge stretch. As a team, whether poor scheme or poor individual effort, the Jazz suck on D. And speaking of schemes, did anyone notice how just about every coach in the league has been able to take the Jazz out of their offensive sets? Same thing happened to Jerry - it became too easy to defend. OKC went clinical on the Jazz, by the players own admission constantly taking them out of their spots and playing glued to their chests.

Did you read the article? Doesn't matter what 5 guys you put out there with him or what scheme he playing in (Sloan and and Corbin have very different schemes), he makes them worse as a unit defensively, a lot worse, I'm not sure how much more clear that point, and the evidence supporting it, could be.

I'm also not sure how you can make that assertion about Sloans offense, seems baseless to me. People knew what he was doing for 20 years, and 2003-2006 were the only years in that entire period where the Jazz didn't have a top 10 NBA offense. 2007 it was 3rd, 2008 it was 1st, 2009 it was 8th, and 2010 it was 8th. Every one of those years they averaged a remarkably consistent offensive efficiency of between 110 and 112. Nothin easy about it when it's run correctly.

The problem with the Jazz right now isn't scheme, it's execution.

There's also this from a Jazz fan that recently got to sit down for dinner with Greg Miller and sit courtside when the Jazz played the Pistons...

Quote :

Surly Mae's (@SurlyMae) Courtside Experience:

We happened to walk into the arena the same time as the coaching staff, and as Ty shook Greg’s hand and then all of ours, I distinctly felt that here was a man terrified for his job. And say all you want about Ty – I’ve been critical of him myself, he frustrates and confuses me beyond belief – but it really seemed to me that all the players respect him. On the floor they are constantly looking to him for guidance, searching out his voice when they can’t look at him, and then doing exactly what he says. I saw no exasperation, attitude, or defiance from any player towards him. I was honestly pretty amazed.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/14/4104334/exclusive-surly-maes-surlymae-courtside-experience

Quote :

On Coach Corbin:


[@SurlyMae]: I will say: we can be skeptical and critical all we want, but every one of those players respects Ty Corbin, so somebody is doing something right.


[@prodigal_punk]: What makes you say that?


[@SurlyMae]: They are always looking at him, to him, always listening for what he's yelling. He seems to have their full attention. And of all the people to have an issue with Ty, Burks came over and said he needed to come out; it looked like he hurt his thumb or something. Corbin said, "No, you need to be strong with the [expletive] ball", and pointed him down the court. Alec didn't roll his eyes, act exasperated, or like he couldn't keep going; he just did it.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/14/4104334/exclusive-surly-maes-surlymae-courtside-experience

Found that bit of insight pretty interesting.

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm not sure that I really agree with that conclusion, there is a great deal more than defensive schemes to be disspointed in Corbin for, in fact his defensive scheme is probably not even in my top 5 list of reasons why I don't like him as a coach, but I respect the well reasoned analysis and completely agree about Jefferson.

I also think the point about being a good defensive coach is interesting, is it possible that is one of Corbins real strengths and it has just been hidden under the gigantic albatross that is Al Jefferson? hmmmm...

Yea, that was my thoughts too. Corbin may be a great defensive coach.......and also why he should have been retained and moved up to an asst. coach position from his lesser spot. Instead, right to the top of the coaching food chain. You get what you pay for.
I dont think Corbin should be the head coach. Way way too many things we talked about in December that needed to be changed, and now when it's almost too late he does those exact things.

TheMagnus wrote:

There's also this from a Jazz fan that recently got to sit down for dinner with Greg Miller and sit courtside when the Jazz played the Pistons...

Quote :

Surly Mae's (@SurlyMae) Courtside Experience:

We happened to walk into the arena the same time as the coaching staff, and as Ty shook Greg’s hand and then all of ours, I distinctly felt that here was a man terrified for his job. And say all you want about Ty – I’ve been critical of him myself, he frustrates and confuses me beyond belief – but it really seemed to me that all the players respect him. On the floor they are constantly looking to him for guidance, searching out his voice when they can’t look at him, and then doing exactly what he says. I saw no exasperation, attitude, or defiance from any player towards him. I was honestly pretty amazed.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/14/4104334/exclusive-surly-maes-surlymae-courtside-experience

Quote :

On Coach Corbin:


[@SurlyMae]: I will say: we can be skeptical and critical all we want, but every one of those players respects Ty Corbin, so somebody is doing something right.


[@prodigal_punk]: What makes you say that?


[@SurlyMae]: They are always looking at him, to him, always listening for what he's yelling. He seems to have their full attention. And of all the people to have an issue with Ty, Burks came over and said he needed to come out; it looked like he hurt his thumb or something. Corbin said, "No, you need to be strong with the [expletive] ball", and pointed him down the court. Alec didn't roll his eyes, act exasperated, or like he couldn't keep going; he just did it.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/3/14/4104334/exclusive-surly-maes-surlymae-courtside-experience

Found that bit of insight pretty interesting.

I hope this is all true. Whether the coach is doing a good job or not, I hate hearing that players aren't listening & following the coaches lead. It's their job to play hard & listen to their coach/supervisor, the same as it is in any other job. It's not going to help to roll your eyes, play half-assed, etc, jsut because you don't like the coach. And who knows, maybe the team does like Ty and have no issue with the calls he's made. None of us are there at practice & in the locker room at halftime. Even with that said ..... I'd like to see a change.

Speaking of tweets:

Gordon Hayward's dad, @GScottHayward, rarely tweets anything beyond links to articles and interviews with Little Gordon. His most recent tweets have therefore been pretty interesting:

13 Mar Sports Quotes ‏@Sports_Greats
What do you do with a mistake: recognize it, admit it, learn from it, forget it. -Dean Smith

Gordon Scott Hayward ‏@GScottHayward
Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

13 Mar Gordon Scott Hayward ‏@GScottHayward
Is the 1st quarter most important in determining the outcome of the game: http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/01/30/correlation-between-netrtg-and-quarter/ …


Do you think the "insanity" tweet is in reference to the Jazz?
Also, will the Jazz now shut down Gordon's dad's account? Only time will tell.

zero24gravity wrote:

Speaking of tweets:

Gordon Hayward's dad, @GScottHayward, rarely tweets anything beyond links to articles and interviews with Little Gordon. His most recent tweets have therefore been pretty interesting:

13 Mar Sports Quotes ‏@Sports_Greats
What do you do with a mistake: recognize it, admit it, learn from it, forget it. -Dean Smith

Gordon Scott Hayward ‏@GScottHayward
Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

13 Mar Gordon Scott Hayward ‏@GScottHayward
Is the 1st quarter most important in determining the outcome of the game: http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/01/30/correlation-between-netrtg-and-quarter/ …


Do you think the "insanity" tweet is in reference to the Jazz?
Also, will the Jazz now shut down Gordon's dad's account? Only time will tell.

Golly, even GH's Dad is on our bandwagon. Perhaps we can get him onto our forum? I think it would have to be the Jazz and Ty he is referring to, how could it not be? If I'm Papa Gordon I'm also seriously annoyed my boy isn't starting. The Jazz can't afford, (and the record show is not working), to not start their five best players. Marvin is doing great off the bench, and the DC experiment is not looking so good.

Mmmmm, nice pull Zero. I'm not usually into the conspiracy stuff, but man that sure looks aimed at Ty too doesn't it???
And I have to say, I dont feel bad about all this heat Ty is getting. I really dont. Because it's not just crazy nonsense fandom. It's stuff that is the difference in wins and losses.

Why do you guys keep saying the DC experiment isn't working?? I think it's going fine, and what I wanted to see. Is because he's not scoring?

Mutangclan wrote:

Why do you guys keep saying the DC experiment isn't working?? I think it's going fine, and what I wanted to see. Is because he's not scoring?

Because he hasn't done squat in his starts, for example? In his 3 starts he has 53 minutes, gone 3-12 and has 5 rebounds, including that 0-3 and 0 rb performance against OK. Meanwhile, Marvin has gone 10-19 and 18 rbs in those games (with 74 minutes). Must be as others have argued, the starting 3 slot on the Jazz is a death sentence. Nonetheless, the net result is the same as when Marvin started and DC came off the bench - the experiment isn't working, its just treading water. And, the Jazz keep losing looking equally terrible.

MTJazz wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Why do you guys keep saying the DC experiment isn't working?? I think it's going fine, and what I wanted to see. Is because he's not scoring?

Because he hasn't done squat in his starts, for example? In his 3 starts he has 53 minutes, gone 3-12 and has 5 rebounds, including that 0-3 and 0 rb performance against OK. Meanwhile, Marvin has gone 10-19 and 18 rbs in those games (with 74 minutes). Must be as others have argued, the starting 3 slot on the Jazz is a death sentence. Nonetheless, the net result is the same as when Marvin started and DC came off the bench - the experiment isn't working, its just treading water. And, the Jazz keep losing looking equally terrible.

Well, we obviously wanted Marvin in the starting lineup for completely different reasons. My reasons were not for him to score. It was his hustle and defense, and extra possessions he gets. And he's done that.

It does have something to do with everything going through Al of course, but that was the whole point, that DC doesn't need the ball to be effective. DC may not have the stats lately, but can you tell me if ANYONE on the team has?? Jazz have sucked lately as a whole.

I'm not above giving Corbin props where props are due, and I think he deserves some props for his game plan last night.

Not only did he insert Hayward in the lineup, but he did it with a very specific game plan, get him attacking from the weak side. Memphis uses the Thibodeau method of D, overloading "the box" and putting an extra man on the ball side. The way you beat that D is through ball movement and spacing, and Hayward is the perfect player to put pressure on it from the back side because he's a good shooter and at the same time if you run him off the three point line he can either attack the rim or hit the open mid-range jumper. I have heard several people comment on how Jefferson was moving the ball in the offense as well as he has all season, catching the ball in both the low and high post and reversing it quickly instead of just holding it and looking to make a move, and to me it was clear that was a result of him following Corbins game plan.

So I think he deserves some credit for the Game plan and for making the starting lineup change more than just about playing lineup roulette.

I'll save my usual gripes about who's getting minutes and why for another time. But I will say that I have noticed that whenever Al has played this way he is less effective from a box score standpoint, but the team seems to be better overall. The offense ran more this way at the start of the season and Al struggled. The offense worked that way with D-Will and Sloan, and Al struggled. He gets less shots and shoots a lower percentage, he also gets fewer rebounds. We'll have to see if this strategy of increased ball movement and offensive pace holds going forward, or if it is once again abandoned for the sake of getting Big Al "going".

Well perhaps a few props are in order for Mt. Jazz as well, who it seems like has been arguing for over a month that we should look at starting Hayward and the best five. Of course he also noted that Foye is not in the best five.

Since the Jazz have so many players that can play, there are many possible combinations to play. Regardless, I still have a very strong feeling that a better coach, like George Karl for example, would have played better combinations and minutes, and got a lot more wins out of this Jazz roster than Corbin has. It may have also been Mt. Jazz who pointed out that Denver goes 10 deep without a superstar just like the Jazz, but they've managed to win a heck of a lot more games. (In Corbin's defense, however, Denver's point guard lineup of Lawson and Miller is decidedly better than ours.)

Crunchtime1 wrote:

Well perhaps a few props are in order for Mt. Jazz as well, who it seems like has been arguing for over a month that we should look at starting Hayward and the best five. Of course he also noted that Foye is not in the best five.

Since the Jazz have so many players that can play, there are many possible combinations to play. Regardless, I still have a very strong feeling that a better coach, like George Karl for example, would have played better combinations and minutes, and got a lot more wins out of this Jazz roster than Corbin has. It may have also been Mt. Jazz who pointed out that Denver goes 10 deep without a superstar just like the Jazz, but they've managed to win a heck of a lot more games. (In Corbin's defense, however, Denver's point guard lineup of Lawson and Miller is decidedly better than ours.)

Solid point, props to the MT!

Still don't understand the Karl thing. There was a massive campaign from Denver fans last year to have Karl fired for almost the EXACT same reasons that Corbin is in hot water with Jazz fans this year.

Maybe that is the story we should be looking to? But if so then it is not in the manner that people seem to saying. Karl's story is one that supports giving Corbin another year, not firing him this season.

After all, Karl was in a very very similar situation last year to what Corbin is this year. Young guys deserving time, vets taking time from those guys in the rotation, fans revolting at perceived under-performance, stat heads lambasting his entire record as a coach showing that he's always been bad, and lineups that seemed to make no sense...one year later some of the vets are gone, others sent to the bench, the young guys are starting, Denver is looking good, other teams are saying "I wish my coach was more like George Karl", and all is forgiven.

Perhaps Corbin finds the same redemption?

outerspacefan wrote:

...
Anyway, probably this is not the time to ask for coach's head. Let the season wane and then take a little time to think about it. Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) has been failing ALL the possible tests all the way from the casual fan view to the complex stats.

BUT... he's a Jazz dude... and in the middle of the huge mess he's been making with his players, he has some good little points too and may be, just may be he can lear a thing or two going into next season.

You know... there really are some ugly so called "coaches" out there waiting for a call...

What the heck was I thinking
I'm an effin
This thread should be stickied and the forum should configure an automatic forward of every message to Lindsey's mbx.

outerspacefan wrote:

Fallacy from a man who knows to be failing
I suppose Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) think an astronomer can't talk on Pluto because dude's never been there

Anyway, probably this is not the time to ask for coach's head. Let the season wane and then take a little time to think about it. Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) has been failing ALL the possible tests all the way from the casual fan view to the complex stats.

BUT... he's a Jazz dude... and in the middle of the huge mess he's been making with his players, he has some good little points too and may be, just may be he can lear a thing or two going into next season.

You know... there really are some ugly so called "coaches" out there waiting for a call...

I like the way this thread is backing off a bit on the Fire Ty barrage. And, it's not because I disagree that it might be good for the Jazz to fire Ty.

I agree with many things OuterSpaceFan said way back on the first page of this thread, and always forgot to respond. There ARE a lot of available coaches with legitimate credentials out there that ARE NOT great coaches, or at least potentially no better than Ty. And there are quite a few coaches with NBA jobs that are potentially no better than Ty. There's really no coach available I can think of that would have done much better than Ty this year. The only thing I disagree with OuterSpaceFan's post is that he says Ty has failed every test-- that's not true at all.

AND, as OuterSpaceFan says: Ty IS a Jazz legacy player. I know that doesn't mean he will be a great coach, but, it does mean he will probably be loyal to the Jazz. For any team, that's very hard to come by.

As others have pointed out recently, Execution and Effort by the players are probably the two most important aspect of a team's success. Team stability really plays a major part in a coach's ability to inspire this. That's one reason why Pop is such a great coach-- he had Robinson and a stable team to mentor Tim Duncan, then transitioned well into the Parker/Ginoble/Duncan core that has kept SA extremely good for so many years since. Sloan was the same way in the Stockton/Malone era, and also transitioned pretty well to the D-Will/Boozer stint. As I and others have mentioned, Ty was being groomed for the Assistant Coaching position when Johnson took over the helm from Sloan. When Sloan AND Johnson resigned, Ty was thrown in at head coach. And the Jazz roster completely changed-- so our Jazz vets were only Millsap and Watson. That's not a lot of stability to build a team around.

I can still complain about things I think Ty should have done: like starting Big Al, Millsap, Favors, any SG other than HeyHay or Foye, and Mo Williams-- then having Kanter, Evans, Marv Will, HeyHay, Foye and either Tinsley or Watson as our second unit. IMO, Burkes and DC should get a few minutes also, depending on the matchups. Those lineups would have both offensive and defensive punch for 1st and 2nd units. But, when you look at what I've just suggested, we would still be playing with only two players that have a very good grasp of the systems that made the Jazz such a good team in the past (Millsap and Watson-- and maybe Mo).

I'm all for waiting until the season is over to start talking about whether we should or should not replace Ty. Tonight, we're playing Dallas in Dallas, and they are one game behind us in the playoff race to possibly overtake LA Lakers for the 8th spot. Dallas is starting to surge. It will be a very difficult game for the Jazz to win. And, even if we lose, we finally have a homestand after that-- so, it wouldn't even be over if we lose tonight.

Let's see how things turn out. AND, remember there ARE a lot of "ugly" "coaches" out there we can always bring in come August-- particularly if we abandon that stability thing.

St Lous, that was a solid post. However, I do disagree with you on a couple points. First, Ty is not even an average NBA coach in my book. He simply wasn't ready for the job he was handed. Stability shmability. Every team in the league, and a lot of winning ones, change coaches and get better. When Jerry left it was a perfect opportunity to leave the label "interim" on Ty and then make a move for the next season. Ty is not a hateful guy, he is just over his head. He has done a terrible job with rotations and minutes distributions and failed to adjust both offensive and defensive schemes when the opposing teams figured out how to exploit both in the Jazz. Say no more than Marv Williams and Randy Foye starting after about the midpoint in the season. That alone condems Ty in my book, (and the fact Foye is still starting).

I hope Ty will be let go or better yet demoted back to assistant coach (yeah, a win-win). Conjecture only, but I think he lost this team - something a head coach cannot do and expect to have another year at the helm, whether that was a winning or losing team, doesn't matter.

Sigh. Go Jazz, beat Dallas!

Ty needs to go! tins should never play any time over Burks! Not to sure i can cheer next year if ty is back!

Richardale wrote:

Ty needs to go! tins should never play any time over Burks! Not to sure i can cheer next year if ty is back!

Really? You don't think you would be a Jazz fan next year if Ty was the coach? We've had one of the best NBA franchises in the past 30 years, and your ready to quit being a Jazz fan because you don't like the coach? I don't at all think you are a sub-par contributor to this site-- but, I remember some posters on Tribtalk that used to say the same thing about Jerry Sloan (and, I thought they were truly idiotic).

I posted a thread on the "Rest of the League" section of this site about the Buck's coach. Check it out if you have the time. The same can be said about quite a few coaches in the NBA (and, yes, probably Ty).

But, go back and look at preseason predictions on where experts thought the Jazz would finish this season. This one from Sports Illustrated has some interesting things to say under the category of "Best Teams That Won't Make the Playoffs." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/10/28/nba-preview-2012-13-crystal-ball/index.html

And CBS Sports had 3 analysts predicting who would make it into the playoffs. Only one had the Jazz making the playoffs. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/20737434/cbssportscom-2012-2013-nba-playoff-predictions

The best chance the Jazz were given in predictions from right before the season began (from a pretty reputable site) was from http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/30/pbts-preseason-predictions-yes-expect-heat-vs-lakers-final/ where three analysts predicted the Jazz would finish 7th in the West-- none of those predicted GS would make the playoffs, and only one had Houston sliding in at #8. They all had the Lakers finishing either first or second.

I didn't cherry pick this group. I couldn't find October predictions from NBA.com, ESPN, or even Yahoo. I'd be interested in those. Maybe there are some more positive Jazz predictions from "the experts" linked in our own predictions sticky thread?

I'm not really disagreeing with the "Fire Ty" sentiment here. But, if someone had told me Mo Williams would be out for a good chunk of the season, and the Jazz FO made zero trades before the trade deadline-- I would have said the Jazz have no realistic chance of making the playoffs this year.

Saint Louis wrote:

Richardale wrote:

Ty needs to go! tins should never play any time over Burks! Not to sure i can cheer next year if ty is back!

Really? You don't think you would be a Jazz fan next year if Ty was the coach? We've had one of the best NBA franchises in the past 30 years, and your ready to quit being a Jazz fan because you don't like the coach? I don't at all think you are a sub-par contributor to this site-- but, I remember some posters on Tribtalk that used to say the same thing about Jerry Sloan (and, I thought they were truly idiotic).

I posted a thread on the "Rest of the League" section of this site about the Buck's coach. Check it out if you have the time. The same can be said about quite a few coaches in the NBA (and, yes, probably Ty).

But, go back and look at preseason predictions on where experts thought the Jazz would finish this season. This one from Sports Illustrated has some interesting things to say under the category of "Best Teams That Won't Make the Playoffs." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/10/28/nba-preview-2012-13-crystal-ball/index.html

And CBS Sports had 3 analysts predicting who would make it into the playoffs. Only one had the Jazz making the playoffs. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/20737434/cbssportscom-2012-2013-nba-playoff-predictions

The best chance the Jazz were given in predictions from right before the season began (from a pretty reputable site) was from http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/30/pbts-preseason-predictions-yes-expect-heat-vs-lakers-final/ where three analysts predicted the Jazz would finish 7th in the West-- none of those predicted GS would make the playoffs, and only one had Houston sliding in at #8. They all had the Lakers finishing either first or second.

I didn't cherry pick this group. I couldn't find October predictions from NBA.com, ESPN, or even Yahoo. I'd be interested in those. Maybe there are some more positive Jazz predictions from "the experts" linked in our own predictions sticky thread?

I'm not really disagreeing with the "Fire Ty" sentiment here. But, if someone had told me Mo Williams would be out for a good chunk of the season, and the Jazz FO made zero trades before the trade deadline-- I would have said the Jazz have no realistic chance of making the playoffs this year.

been a jazz fan longer than most here, So will i stop watching prob not.And i know Ty is still young and growing as a coach but when he brings in a vet like Tin man and not Burks who gives us a better chance to make some noise just drives me insane. Plz play the best we got that will help us win then i'll be back in his corner. Burks give us abetter shot at winning and he'll be getting better with the more time he gets. Love the jazz so some of the stuff i say is coming out of me arse. Sry.