Next Dynasty starts now

What do we do now. I'm the biggest Milsap/Jefferson fan on this thread, but if you look at what each of them are given us, it is time to prepare for our next dynasty, NOW!

I recommend that we start those who have a contract now and let those playing for a new contract come off the bench and fight it out for the minutes that are left.

Burks/Hayward/Favors/Kanter is our future start them now and let the begin to mesh, don't wait until next year to get it started. The fifth starter could be either Williams.

Evans should be the 1st off the bench and lets see what this Murphy kid has as well.

I have seen less fire out of Milsap in the past month than I have seen in my life time watching him. His joy for the game is gone, if you watch is body language.

Also it is time to go on record for the first time that I don't want Corbin teaching our young stars how to be average. Call Stockston now and ask him how much it would take to get is butt on the bench.

Jazz Dog wrote:

What do we do now. I'm the biggest Milsap/Jefferson fan on this thread, but if you look at what each of them are given us, it is time to prepare for our next dynasty, NOW!

I recommend that we start those who have a contract now and let those playing for a new contract come off the bench and fight it out for the minutes that are left.

Burks/Hayward/Favors/Kanter is our future start them now and let the begin to mesh, don't wait until next year to get it started. The fifth starter could be either Williams.

Evans should be the 1st off the bench and lets see what this Murphy kid has as well.

I have seen less fire out of Milsap in the past month than I have seen in my life time watching him. His joy for the game is gone, if you watch is body language.

Also it is time to go on record for the first time that I don't want Corbin teaching our young stars how to be average. Call Stockston now and ask him how much it would take to get is butt on the bench.

Hard to disagree with you in principle and I have also suggested the Jazz start having tryouts starting about, well, now. But the reality is we will see nothing like that until the Jazz are mathematically eliminated, its just the Jazz way. And, given how things are bunched up around the 6-10 seed, we probably won't have the math work that way until the last week of the season, (short of a serious bed crapping by the Jazz, entirely possible it appears).

With Kobe going down in Lakerland, the Jazz are put in a position where the league expects them to claim a playoff spot. I don't think the league expects the Lakers to do anything without Kobe. And, I don't think the league cares what the Jazz accomplish. Maybe the league wants to create a little interest in who gets the 8th spot in the West (LA, Utah, Dallas, Portland?), but, unless Kobe comes back, I doubt they care.

I guess I agree that the Jazz should be looking to the future, but, I don't see any building blocks for a dynasty. At best, we have a few players that would fit well as role players to combine with a few superstars. But, we have no superstars unless you want to call Big Al or Millsap a superstar. (And, of course, we'll either lose them or sign them this summer.)

This is the worst potential Jazz team I have ever seen. The team we have now is better than any team I foresee in the next few years, and that's not saying much. We didn't make trades for Big Al or Millsap, and, at best, we may resign them both at market value. (That won't create a dynasty, but would keep us competitive.) Without Big Al and Millsap, we are worse than most teams in the NBA (worse than Charlotte, Orlando, Phoenix, or Washington) (and, actually, much worse than Washington).

So, is building a dynasty a code-word for tanking the next few seasons and getting a few early lottery picks? If so, okay, I guess I can understand. But, I don't think anyone could call the Jazz' past as being a dynasty, so the word "next" is completely unacceptable. We haven't EVER won a championship. At our best, we've come close a couple of times, and have had a 20 year record of being over 50%. We have never had a dynasty.

Jazz Dog wrote:

What do we do now. I'm the biggest Milsap/Jefferson fan on this thread, but if you look at what each of them are given us, it is time to prepare for our next dynasty, NOW!

I recommend that we start those who have a contract now and let those playing for a new contract come off the bench and fight it out for the minutes that are left.

Burks/Hayward/Favors/Kanter is our future start them now and let the begin to mesh, don't wait until next year to get it started. The fifth starter could be either Williams.

Evans should be the 1st off the bench and lets see what this Murphy kid has as well.

I have seen less fire out of Milsap in the past month than I have seen in my life time watching him. His joy for the game is gone, if you watch is body language.

Also it is time to go on record for the first time that I don't want Corbin teaching our young stars how to be average. Call Stockston now and ask him how much it would take to get is butt on the bench.

Time to go to Fav @ Kanter and telling them they need to and they have it in them to take us to the next level and its thier team. Time to let it out or TY may never get it? Cut Als time big and paul off the bench with Mo Foye. Yes i'm starting Burks and maybe sap at the 3? Change it up NOW

This team obviously needs to get rid of Al Jeff. He's the orange and all the rest of our team are apples.

But, why would you guys want to get rid of Paul Millsap? First of all you need 5-6 really really good players to compete. 2 can't do it, 3 can't and a core 4 can't. You also need 4 big men on a team, you want to lose Paul and Al and have two scrubs backing up Kanter and Fav? Paul Millsap is 28 years old. He's got 4 top years left minimum, and probably more given his type of athleticism. He plays great with Gordo/Burks/Fav/Kanter, he's an excellent teammate, and doesn't have any glaring deficiencies. Why would we not want that?

This TEAM moving forward should be the team of Gordo/Paul/Fav/Kanter/Burks, they're our best players, and the ones that compliment each other best. Toss in some role players, keep a shooter like Foye or bring back Korver and figure out our PG situation. Thats the best possible Jazz team.

Mutangclan wrote:

This team obviously needs to get rid of Al Jeff. He's the orange and all the rest of our team are apples.

But, why would you guys want to get rid of Paul Millsap? First of all you need 5-6 really really good players to compete. 2 can't do it, 3 can't and a core 4 can't. You also need 4 big men on a team, you want to lose Paul and Al and have two scrubs backing up Kanter and Fav? Paul Millsap is 28 years old. He's got 4 top years left minimum, and probably more given his type of athleticism. He plays great with Gordo/Burks/Fav/Kanter, he's an excellent teammate, and doesn't have any glaring deficiencies. Why would we not want that?

This TEAM moving forward should be the team of Gordo/Paul/Fav/Kanter/Burks, they're our best players, and the ones that compliment each other best. Toss in some role players, keep a shooter like Foye or bring back Korver and figure out our PG situation. Thats the best possible Jazz team.

Don't forget Jeremy Evans as a "big"(ish) player. But I still agree, the team needs 3+ capable players to man the post. Favors + Kanter are solid, but if one of them were to go down or even to get into foul trouble (I'm talking to you Mr. Favors), and Al was not here, you would have yourself a serious size issue.

I'm still not convinced one way or the other on keeping; Al, Paul, both or neither heading into next year. I know I want to see more of the young guys, but also don't want to be so thin that the team can't function for a full 48 minutes. Favors/Kanter/Sap/Evans + a decent 6'10"-7' 12th man should be able to hold the fort inside. Now what to do about that PG issue?

zero24gravity wrote:

I'm still not convinced one way or the other on keeping; Al, Paul, both or neither heading into next year. I know I want to see more of the young guys, but also don't want to be so thin that the team can't function for a full 48 minutes. Favors/Kanter/Sap/Evans + a decent 6'10"-7' 12th man should be able to hold the fort inside. Now what to do about that PG issue?

Don't re-sign Mo unless he'll take a fairly cheap short-term contract, move up as high as necessary in the draft to get the rookie PG of choice. Mentor said rookie with Mo/replacement Mo. Meanwhile, the Jazz have to figure out to get scoring out of the wings. Despite some on this board, I don't think Burks is starter material for next year, (though he sure as hell should be starting over Foye on this incarnation). This conversation is about how to become more than a team always playing for the bottom seed of the brutal west playoffs. To do that without a superstar every starter has to be a lot better than average and the bench stone cold dominant. I think the Jazz bench is already mostly there with a few tweaks. Looking at this theoretical next years line-up and we have some gaps in the "a lot above average" model:

Starters:
C-Kanter - a little above average and heading up fast.
PF-Sap - a lot better than average
SF-GH - a little better than average and hopefully still heading up
SG-Burks - average, who knows his peak?
PG-Mo - average

Bench:
Favors - a lot above average bench guy
Marv - a little above average bench guy
DC - above average bench guy
Murphy - who knows, looks below average right now
Foye - a little above average bench guy
Evans - above average bench guy
Rookie PG - who knows, and unless one hits the Liliard lottery doubtful a rook can run the second unit

My point with all this is the Jazz need one or two more above average guys to fill this roster out. The obvious candidates are PG and SG. Slip Burks and Mo to the bench by replacing them with above average starters and suddenly that team looks AWESOME.

MTJazz wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

I'm still not convinced one way or the other on keeping; Al, Paul, both or neither heading into next year. I know I want to see more of the young guys, but also don't want to be so thin that the team can't function for a full 48 minutes. Favors/Kanter/Sap/Evans + a decent 6'10"-7' 12th man should be able to hold the fort inside. Now what to do about that PG issue?

Don't re-sign Mo unless he'll take a fairly cheap short-term contract, move up as high as necessary in the draft to get the rookie PG of choice. Mentor said rookie with Mo/replacement Mo. Meanwhile, the Jazz have to figure out to get scoring out of the wings. Despite some on this board, I don't think Burks is starter material for next year, (though he sure as hell should be starting over Foye on this incarnation). This conversation is about how to become more than a team always playing for the bottom seed of the brutal west playoffs. To do that without a superstar every starter has to be a lot better than average and the bench stone cold dominant. I think the Jazz bench is already mostly there with a few tweaks. Looking at this theoretical next years line-up and we have some gaps in the "a lot above average" model:

Starters:
C-Kanter - a little above average and heading up fast.
PF-Sap - a lot better than average
SF-GH - a little better than average and hopefully still heading up
SG-Burks - average, who knows his peak?
PG-Mo - average

Bench:
Favors - a lot above average bench guy
Marv - a little above average bench guy
DC - above average bench guy
Murphy - who knows, looks below average right now
Foye - a little above average bench guy
Evans - above average bench guy
Rookie PG - who knows, and unless one hits the Liliard lottery doubtful a rook can run the second unit

My point with all this is the Jazz need one or two more above average guys to fill this roster out. The obvious candidates are PG and SG. Slip Burks and Mo to the bench by replacing them with above average starters and suddenly that team looks AWESOME.

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.

Kanter. Right now, RIGHT now he's an average Center, and if you look at all the averages around the league, its crazy not to already call him above average. When he's gotten 20minutes or so finally, this kid is shooting a high 50s, and a double double with high FT%. Tell me how many Centers are doing that? Not to mention 2nd year Centers. And seeing as how this is his first real season, and the first time we can actually form an informed opinion on him, he is above average going on really good. There's no reason to think he wont be good, and since he's 20 and already average to good, he should be looked at as a great player going forward.

Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Hayward. Funny you chose Derozan, because again, go look. He and Hayward are having the exact same season. Except Hayward is a 6th man, and DD is starting. And our guy isn't above average?? mannnnnnnn.

Burks. How can you not feel good about this guy? This is the first season he's gotten some play, and he's showing real talent. What do you expect? Nobody is saying he was a bad draft pick. He's shown he's a good scorer, has shown he DOES actually have a 3pt shot and has done nothing but improve. Average for a 2nd year player? AT LEAST.

Its not homer stuff here, I'm just looking more at what is. Surprised you're so down on this team.

Tang, you beat me to the punch. Lots of measures for rankings, but this is NBA.com Efficiency rating for a few of the guys I listed:

Sap - 16th out of 188 forwards; well above average
Favors- 42 out of 188 forwards; well above average
GH- 50 out of 189 gaurds; well above average
Demarre- 86 out of 188 forwards
Kanter- 42 out of 81 centers
Burks- 109 out of 189 gaurds

St. Lou, your Sap assessment is just flat pessimistic ludicrous, same with GH. Based on the above numbers one could argue that Kanter is average, Burks below average, Demarre above, Favors above. But, yes, I did make my post suggesting the Jazz need some upgrades to meet the "above average" playoff contender model. The eyeball test based on the last 20 games indicates that Kanter and Burks are very much on their way up. Not finals contenders any way you look at that roster I put up - just my view of where they are and where the gaps are.

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.

Kanter. Right now, RIGHT now he's an average Center, and if you look at all the averages around the league, its crazy not to already call him above average. When he's gotten 20minutes or so finally, this kid is shooting a high 50s, and a double double with high FT%. Tell me how many Centers are doing that? Not to mention 2nd year Centers. And seeing as how this is his first real season, and the first time we can actually form an informed opinion on him, he is above average going on really good. There's no reason to think he wont be good, and since he's 20 and already average to good, he should be looked at as a great player going forward.

Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Hayward. Funny you chose Derozan, because again, go look. He and Hayward are having the exact same season. Except Hayward is a 6th man, and DD is starting. And our guy isn't above average?? mannnnnnnn.

Burks. How can you not feel good about this guy? This is the first season he's gotten some play, and he's showing real talent. What do you expect? Nobody is saying he was a bad draft pick. He's shown he's a good scorer, has shown he DOES actually have a 3pt shot and has done nothing but improve. Average for a 2nd year player? AT LEAST.

Its not homer stuff here, I'm just looking more at what is. Surprised you're so down on this team.

I think someones hacked Saints account, or switched his meds. First he gets all butt-hurt over a fairly benign post from me, then he lays into Rawns about his fantasy team, then he trots this bit of "realism", and I'm not even sure what all that was over in the Fantasy league a week or two ago.

All very uncharacteristic if you ask me. You ok Saint? Cause you don't seem like yourself lately....

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.

Kanter. Right now, RIGHT now he's an average Center, and if you look at all the averages around the league, its crazy not to already call him above average. When he's gotten 20minutes or so finally, this kid is shooting a high 50s, and a double double with high FT%. Tell me how many Centers are doing that? Not to mention 2nd year Centers. And seeing as how this is his first real season, and the first time we can actually form an informed opinion on him, he is above average going on really good. There's no reason to think he wont be good, and since he's 20 and already average to good, he should be looked at as a great player going forward.

Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Hayward. Funny you chose Derozan, because again, go look. He and Hayward are having the exact same season. Except Hayward is a 6th man, and DD is starting. And our guy isn't above average?? mannnnnnnn.

Burks. How can you not feel good about this guy? This is the first season he's gotten some play, and he's showing real talent. What do you expect? Nobody is saying he was a bad draft pick. He's shown he's a good scorer, has shown he DOES actually have a 3pt shot and has done nothing but improve. Average for a 2nd year player? AT LEAST.

Its not homer stuff here, I'm just looking more at what is. Surprised you're so down on this team.

I think someones hacked Saints account, or switched his meds. First he gets all butt-hurt over a fairly benign post from me, then he lays into Rawns about his fantasy team, then he trots this bit of "realism", and I'm not even sure what all that was over in the Fantasy league a week or two ago.

All very uncharacteristic if you ask me. You ok Saint? Cause you don't seem like yourself lately....

Thanks for the concern, Mag! I enjoy your posts and honestly have great respect for you. (The Fantasy Smack Talk was only Smack Talk-- I saw your team and my team and how many games my guys played and how few your guys played and knew there was no way your team would come close to mine [even when jammyjam Nelson went down for the entire week, I still destroyed].)

I also respect MtJazz and Mu quite a bit.

But, MtJazz illustrated my point with his efficiency stats. The best efficiency stats of a Jazz player on the list was Millsap, and that was 16th! 16th is exactly in the middle (there are 32 teams-- if you are 16th you are average). I understand you can look at non-starters, bench players, and D-League players who occasionally make it up to the NBA and come away with idea that 16th is above average. But, like I said, that's a recipe for disaster.

And, of course, stats are very useful, but not at all anywhere close to a determining factor on which players are "better." "Better" is very subjective, so I appreciate someone saying Hayhey is better or at least as good as DeMar DeRozan. (And I hope next year, my man Hayhey IS better than DeMar DeRozan.) This year, DeRozan has played against starters in the East (where the tweener position, SG/SF, is tougher in the East than in the West) while Our man has usually come off the bench and done wonderful things. DeRozan is an average SG/SF (now that Rudy Gay is in Toronto, DeRozan plays mostly SG), and Rudy Gay is a slightly above average SF. Right now, at best, our guy is an average SF. Almost every team in the NBA has at least one SF that is as good or better than Our Guy. I used Toronto as an example (Gay and DeRozan) because Toronto is a so-so team, even in the East. I didn't use teams like MIA, NYK, or Boston, because all of them are doing well, and also have at least two SFs that are at least as good as Hayhey (LeBron/Battier/Miller, Melo/JR Smith, Pierce/Green) (and, don't bother to quote me the stats on Battier, Miller, Smith or Green).

I guess I could go on, position by position.... But, look at the stats MtJazz has provided. 16 is average (for a starter), and top ten (eleven, technically) moves a player above average. I am a Jazz fan, and I'm a huge Hayhey and Millsap fan (even a pretty big Kanter fan). But, I don't feel the need to twist statistics or overlook the obvious when I'm talking about the team I love.

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.

Kanter. Right now, RIGHT now he's an average Center, and if you look at all the averages around the league, its crazy not to already call him above average. When he's gotten 20minutes or so finally, this kid is shooting a high 50s, and a double double with high FT%. Tell me how many Centers are doing that? Not to mention 2nd year Centers. And seeing as how this is his first real season, and the first time we can actually form an informed opinion on him, he is above average going on really good. There's no reason to think he wont be good, and since he's 20 and already average to good, he should be looked at as a great player going forward.

Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Hayward. Funny you chose Derozan, because again, go look. He and Hayward are having the exact same season. Except Hayward is a 6th man, and DD is starting. And our guy isn't above average?? mannnnnnnn.

Burks. How can you not feel good about this guy? This is the first season he's gotten some play, and he's showing real talent. What do you expect? Nobody is saying he was a bad draft pick. He's shown he's a good scorer, has shown he DOES actually have a 3pt shot and has done nothing but improve. Average for a 2nd year player? AT LEAST.

Its not homer stuff here, I'm just looking more at what is. Surprised you're so down on this team.

I think someones hacked Saints account, or switched his meds. First he gets all butt-hurt over a fairly benign post from me, then he lays into Rawns about his fantasy team, then he trots this bit of "realism", and I'm not even sure what all that was over in the Fantasy league a week or two ago.

All very uncharacteristic if you ask me. You ok Saint? Cause you don't seem like yourself lately....

Thanks for the concern, Mag! I enjoy your posts and honestly have great respect for you. (The Fantasy Smack Talk was only Smack Talk-- I saw your team and my team and how many games my guys played and how few your guys played and knew there was no way your team would come close to mine [even when jammyjam Nelson went down for the entire week, I still destroyed].)

I also respect MtJazz and Mu quite a bit.

But, MtJazz illustrated my point with his efficiency stats. The best efficiency stats of a Jazz player on the list was Millsap, and that was 16th! 16th is exactly in the middle (there are 32 teams-- if you are 16th you are average). I understand you can look at non-starters, bench players, and D-League players who occasionally make it up to the NBA and come away with idea that 16th is above average. But, like I said, that's a recipe for disaster.

And, of course, stats are very useful, but not at all anywhere close to a determining factor on which players are "better." "Better" is very subjective, so I appreciate someone saying Hayhey is better or at least as good as DeMar DeRozan. (And I hope next year, my man Hayhey IS better than DeMar DeRozan.) This year, DeRozan has played against starters in the East (where the tweener position, SG/SF, is tougher in the East than in the West) while Our man has usually come off the bench and done wonderful things. DeRozan is an average SG/SF (now that Rudy Gay is in Toronto, DeRozan plays mostly SG), and Rudy Gay is a slightly above average SF. Right now, at best, our guy is an average SF. Almost every team in the NBA has at least one SF that is as good or better than Our Guy. I used Toronto as an example (Gay and DeRozan) because Toronto is a so-so team, even in the East. I didn't use teams like MIA, NYK, or Boston, because all of them are doing well, and also have at least two SFs that are at least as good as Hayhey (LeBron/Battier/Miller, Melo/JR Smith, Pierce/Green) (and, don't bother to quote me the stats on Battier, Miller, Smith or Green).

I guess I could go on, position by position.... But, look at the stats MtJazz has provided. 16 is average (for a starter), and top ten (eleven, technically) moves a player above average. I am a Jazz fan, and I'm a huge Hayhey and Millsap fan (even a pretty big Kanter fan). But, I don't feel the need to twist statistics or overlook the obvious when I'm talking about the team I love.

I've always respected your opinions here too, you always seem to approach these things with a level head and a keen insight.

Your logic is a bit flawed here though.

Millsap was #16 among "forwards", technically that is both the SF and PF, and in reality it also includes several players [cough]Tim Duncan[/cough] that are really Centers. Hollinger has him as the #6 PF in the NBA in both PER and WinsAdded, better than guys like Zach Randolph and Lamarcus Aldrige in both categories despite fewer minutes (matters in WinScore).

Gay and Derozan are not better than Hayward now, they just play more and shoot more.

Hollinger has Hayward rated as the #7 SG in the league for PER and #12 in WinsAdded Making him "above average" in both cats by your definition, and he's miles ahead of both DeRozan and Gay in PER. He'd be slightly lower if he was ranked as a SF because the field is deeper, but still "above average" by both measures, and better than most of the guys you listed there.

And don't short change Gordon's Minutes either. He's played pretty much the entire 4th quarter of every game this year, that matters.

Burks on the whole is well below average, but since he got his confidence back and has been getting regular rotation minutes his production has been on par with guys like DeRozan and OJ Mayo. Most people are seeing that as a glimpse of his potential, and we'll have to wait until next year to see if that is a mirage or real growth in a young player (only 21).

Kanter is only 20. That cannot be overstated. I posted a link before comparing him to Big Al at the same age and the comparison is uncanny. Right now if the trajectory holds he projects to be a Carlos Boozer/Big Al offensively with better defense. No kidding. That is pretty freaking good.

I get that you are down on this team, but there is some really really good talent here that actually gets MORE impressive when you really dig into the numbers. Nobody is going to be elite (Favors is the only one that I think even has the potential), but there are only a handful of those guys in the league who are. Memphis and Denver are really glimpses into the future of this Jazz team I think. Neither of those teams have a player that I would consider elite, but they both are fringe contenders that nobody really wants to play in the playoffs. Keep this young group together, add the right pieces through the draft and free agency, and in 2 to 3 years this Jazz team is considered a possible contender. You can write that down and hold me to it.

[quote="Saint Louis But, MtJazz illustrated my point with his efficiency stats. The best efficiency stats of a Jazz player on the list was Millsap, and that was 16th! 16th is exactly in the middle (there are 32 teams-- if you are 16th you are average). I understand you can look at non-starters, bench players, and D-League players who occasionally make it up to the NBA and come away with idea that 16th is above average. But, like I said, that's a recipe for disaster.)

There's 32 teams but each team has 3 or 4 players at that spot. 4 times 32 164 paul is at 16th is high for players that play that spot? Not middle like your wanting to say? Lets say your talking players getting start minutes then you cant put jazz young big low on there stats because thats not fair? Both i feel will be great if given big minutes like some of the top starters are getting. You cant put paul down unless you want to bring Favors and Kanter up!

TheMagnus wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.

Kanter. Right now, RIGHT now he's an average Center, and if you look at all the averages around the league, its crazy not to already call him above average. When he's gotten 20minutes or so finally, this kid is shooting a high 50s, and a double double with high FT%. Tell me how many Centers are doing that? Not to mention 2nd year Centers. And seeing as how this is his first real season, and the first time we can actually form an informed opinion on him, he is above average going on really good. There's no reason to think he wont be good, and since he's 20 and already average to good, he should be looked at as a great player going forward.

Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Hayward. Funny you chose Derozan, because again, go look. He and Hayward are having the exact same season. Except Hayward is a 6th man, and DD is starting. And our guy isn't above average?? mannnnnnnn.

Burks. How can you not feel good about this guy? This is the first season he's gotten some play, and he's showing real talent. What do you expect? Nobody is saying he was a bad draft pick. He's shown he's a good scorer, has shown he DOES actually have a 3pt shot and has done nothing but improve. Average for a 2nd year player? AT LEAST.

Its not homer stuff here, I'm just looking more at what is. Surprised you're so down on this team.

I think someones hacked Saints account, or switched his meds. First he gets all butt-hurt over a fairly benign post from me, then he lays into Rawns about his fantasy team, then he trots this bit of "realism", and I'm not even sure what all that was over in the Fantasy league a week or two ago.

All very uncharacteristic if you ask me. You ok Saint? Cause you don't seem like yourself lately....

Thanks for the concern, Mag! I enjoy your posts and honestly have great respect for you. (The Fantasy Smack Talk was only Smack Talk-- I saw your team and my team and how many games my guys played and how few your guys played and knew there was no way your team would come close to mine [even when jammyjam Nelson went down for the entire week, I still destroyed].)

I also respect MtJazz and Mu quite a bit.

But, MtJazz illustrated my point with his efficiency stats. The best efficiency stats of a Jazz player on the list was Millsap, and that was 16th! 16th is exactly in the middle (there are 32 teams-- if you are 16th you are average). I understand you can look at non-starters, bench players, and D-League players who occasionally make it up to the NBA and come away with idea that 16th is above average. But, like I said, that's a recipe for disaster.

And, of course, stats are very useful, but not at all anywhere close to a determining factor on which players are "better." "Better" is very subjective, so I appreciate someone saying Hayhey is better or at least as good as DeMar DeRozan. (And I hope next year, my man Hayhey IS better than DeMar DeRozan.) This year, DeRozan has played against starters in the East (where the tweener position, SG/SF, is tougher in the East than in the West) while Our man has usually come off the bench and done wonderful things. DeRozan is an average SG/SF (now that Rudy Gay is in Toronto, DeRozan plays mostly SG), and Rudy Gay is a slightly above average SF. Right now, at best, our guy is an average SF. Almost every team in the NBA has at least one SF that is as good or better than Our Guy. I used Toronto as an example (Gay and DeRozan) because Toronto is a so-so team, even in the East. I didn't use teams like MIA, NYK, or Boston, because all of them are doing well, and also have at least two SFs that are at least as good as Hayhey (LeBron/Battier/Miller, Melo/JR Smith, Pierce/Green) (and, don't bother to quote me the stats on Battier, Miller, Smith or Green).

I guess I could go on, position by position.... But, look at the stats MtJazz has provided. 16 is average (for a starter), and top ten (eleven, technically) moves a player above average. I am a Jazz fan, and I'm a huge Hayhey and Millsap fan (even a pretty big Kanter fan). But, I don't feel the need to twist statistics or overlook the obvious when I'm talking about the team I love.

I've always respected your opinions here too, you always seem to approach these things with a level head and a keen insight.

Your logic is a bit flawed here though.

Millsap was #16 among "forwards", technically that is both the SF and PF, and in reality it also includes several players [cough]Tim Duncan[/cough] that are really Centers. Hollinger has him as the #6 PF in the NBA in both PER and WinsAdded, better than guys like Zach Randolph and Lamarcus Aldrige in both categories despite fewer minutes (matters in WinScore).

Gay and Derozan are not better than Hayward now, they just play more and shoot more.

Hollinger has Hayward rated as the #7 SG in the league for PER and #12 in WinsAdded Making him "above average" in both cats by your definition, and he's miles ahead of both DeRozan and Gay in PER. He'd be slightly lower if he was ranked as a SF because the field is deeper, but still "above average" by both measures, and better than most of the guys you listed there.

And don't short change Gordon's Minutes either. He's played pretty much the entire 4th quarter of every game this year, that matters.

Burks on the whole is well below average, but since he got his confidence back and has been getting regular rotation minutes his production has been on par with guys like DeRozan and OJ Mayo. Most people are seeing that as a glimpse of his potential, and we'll have to wait until next year to see if that is a mirage or real growth in a young player (only 21).

Kanter is only 20. That cannot be overstated. I posted a link before comparing him to Big Al at the same age and the comparison is uncanny. Right now if the trajectory holds he projects to be a Carlos Boozer/Big Al offensively with better defense. No kidding. That is pretty freaking good.

I get that you are down on this team, but there is some really really good talent here that actually gets MORE impressive when you really dig into the numbers. Nobody is going to be elite (Favors is the only one that I think even has the potential), but there are only a handful of those guys in the league who are. Memphis and Denver are really glimpses into the future of this Jazz team I think. Neither of those teams have a player that I would consider elite, but they both are fringe contenders that nobody really wants to play in the playoffs. Keep this young group together, add the right pieces through the draft and free agency, and in 2 to 3 years this Jazz team is considered a possible contender. You can write that down and hold me to it.

Points taken. Good response. I don't agree, but I see what you are saying. I think one of the main problems with your outlook is that what you call "elite" is what I call "above average." If the players aren't "elite" it's a very fine line between average and above average-- but, I'll admit a player can be above average without being an elite player.

I think you are trying to use statistics over your very good rational discrimination. I think you have a point you believe (and want to believe) and are looking for anything to prove you correct. I hesitate to use this analgy, and, I hope I don't offend you or any on our forumotion site, but: your argument is like a "Creationist" trying to argue against "Evolution."

I'm a Jazz fan. But, I've got to tell you: Rudy Gay is a better SF than Hayhey, and, DeRozan is a better SF than Hayhey. If you want to look at really lousy teams in the East with better SFs than Hayhey, let's look at the Charlotte Bobcats (Henderson and Kidd-Gilchrest).

Hayhey is currently my favorite NBA player. I don't think he's the best, or even near the best. I just love to watch him play. I'm not delusional, though, about how good he is now or what he can become. Just to clue you in, I was a big Bryon Russell fan (back when we had Stockton, Malone, and Horny). Hayhey (IMO) is better than B-Russ, but, we don't have a Stockton, Malone, or Hornicek.

Put it this way: Milsap is a very good player, but even surrounded with decent talent he cannot lead the team to win at the neccesary rate to make postseason on their own.
Always loved Millsap hard work, but talent, size, consistent durability producing clutch winning, and other little nuances that actually lead teams to win at a nice rate... well... just doesn't grow only from hard work.
If Paul stays next season so be it and I will be glad if the price is right... but I don't want anybody to stay in front of Favors/Kanter developement or even in front of Evans playing time....

[quote="Mutangclan"]

Saint Louis wrote:

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."


Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.


Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Mu, you know I respect you. But, go back and look at all of our fantasy drafts to see who thinks who is best. Millsap was taken at least by 15th overall in all my Jazzfan leagues. I picked up Blake Griffin at 30, and Griffin is absolutely a better PF than Millsap. I love Millsap, but, there is no way he is better than Blake Griffin. So, listen. This may or may not be true, but, I'll say it anyway: Jazz Fans overvalue their favorite players, which, frequently are Jazz players. Maybe it's because I've played Fantasy Basketball too long, but I've become pretty good at knowing the difference between what I want to be true and what is really true.

Saint Louis wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.


Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Mu, you know I respect you. But, go back and look at all of our fantasy drafts to see who thinks who is best. Millsap was taken at least by 15th overall in all my Jazzfan leagues. I picked up Blake Griffin at 30, and Griffin is absolutely a better PF than Millsap. I love Millsap, but, there is no way he is better than Blake Griffin. So, listen. This may or may not be true, but, I'll say it anyway: Jazz Fans overvalue their favorite players, which, frequently are Jazz players. Maybe it's because I've played Fantasy Basketball too long, but I've become pretty good at knowing the difference between what I want to be true and what is really true.

Not Jazz fans man, ever since I have been a fan people have been undervaluing the Jazz best players for one stupid reason or another. Ostertag, AK, Brewer, Boozer, Millsap, Harris...I could go on, but Jazz fans are notoriously fickle about how they feel about players.

Millsap is perpetually underrated for the simple fact that he carries the label "undersized". There is no other justifiable reason for his constant slights with words like "role player" and "better off the bench". Statistically, no matter how you look at the numbers or what arbitrary metric you are looking at, team based, individual, team success (wins), playoff performance, skill development...anything, you pick it, and I'll show you he's a top 10 NBA PF. Smart teams know this, and they will be the ones fighting for his services this summer.

I think contempt for the familiarity of the other side's been breeding greener for Saint.

Or something like that. But never mind. That's nine milk stitches spilled under the bridge saving time.

Saint, really, your opinion of the relative merits of Jazz vs. Non-Jazz players seems to have been discolored by the disappointing season. The Jazz players really are that good, and trending upward. In the games, they hold their own against just about every teams' corresponding position player. Our core guys aren't the ones getting crushed when we get beat badly.

The team has been frustrating to follow, and we're weak in some areas...but our young guys are ALL showing good. Real good.

THE BURKS QUESTION
I understand the assessment of Burks as being "not good" or "below average". Sometimes, that's what the aggregate of his play comes out to. The reason I (and a lot of other people) am high on the kid is twofold:

a) His play: He shows good size, plus athleticism and HE CAN MAKE PLAYS and
b) His head. He's a cool customer. He stays cool on the court, but he seems to have the determination to keep getting better. He shrugs off his mistakes and he shrugs off his good plays as well.

Yeah, his handle's inconsistent and his shot's unreliable and his defensive instincts are not...instinctive. But I don't think he'll settle for being a flawed, mediocre player.

Remember what Prof. Cornelius Zappencackler used to say: "Well, that's a caution and no mistake." Of course he also, when asked why his armored toaster needed two brains, responded: "And may I see your degree in Industrial Overdesign?", so he could be devious.

Saint Louis wrote:

Points taken. Good response. I don't agree, but I see what you are saying. I think one of the main problems with your outlook is that what you call "elite" is what I call "above average." If the players aren't "elite" it's a very fine line between average and above average-- but, I'll admit a player can be above average without being an elite player.

I think you are trying to use statistics over your very good rational discrimination. I think you have a point you believe (and want to believe) and are looking for anything to prove you correct. I hesitate to use this analgy, and, I hope I don't offend you or any on our forumotion site, but: your argument is like a "Creationist" trying to argue against "Evolution."

I'm a Jazz fan. But, I've got to tell you: Rudy Gay is a better SF than Hayhey, and, DeRozan is a better SF than Hayhey. If you want to look at really lousy teams in the East with better SFs than Hayhey, let's look at the Charlotte Bobcats (Henderson and Kidd-Gilchrest).

Hayhey is currently my favorite NBA player. I don't think he's the best, or even near the best. I just love to watch him play. I'm not delusional, though, about how good he is now or what he can become. Just to clue you in, I was a big Bryon Russell fan (back when we had Stockton, Malone, and Horny). Hayhey (IMO) is better than B-Russ, but, we don't have a Stockton, Malone, or Hornicek.

That's actually really funny, because I feel like the evolutionist, using years of good data and facts to prove my points to people who insist that their better judgement and gut feelings are more valid than my empirical evidence.

Why do you think Memphis traded Gay? Why do you think they actually got BETTER after they traded him for a supposedly washed up veteran?

Think on that for a bit...

TheMagnus wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.


Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Mu, you know I respect you. But, go back and look at all of our fantasy drafts to see who thinks who is best. Millsap was taken at least by 15th overall in all my Jazzfan leagues. I picked up Blake Griffin at 30, and Griffin is absolutely a better PF than Millsap. I love Millsap, but, there is no way he is better than Blake Griffin. So, listen. This may or may not be true, but, I'll say it anyway: Jazz Fans overvalue their favorite players, which, frequently are Jazz players. Maybe it's because I've played Fantasy Basketball too long, but I've become pretty good at knowing the difference between what I want to be true and what is really true.

Not Jazz fans man, ever since I have been a fan people have been undervaluing the Jazz best players for one stupid reason or another. Ostertag, AK, Brewer, Boozer, Millsap, Harris...I could go on, but Jazz fans are notoriously fickle about how they feel about players.

Millsap is perpetually underrated for the simple fact that he carries the label "undersized". There is no other justifiable reason for his constant slights with words like "role player" and "better off the bench". Statistically, no matter how you look at the numbers or what arbitrary metric you are looking at, team based, individual, team success (wins), playoff performance, skill development...anything, you pick it, and I'll show you he's a top 10 NBA PF. Smart teams know this, and they will be the ones fighting for his services this summer.

I agree. There MIGHT be one or two managers in each league who overvalue a Jazz player or two, but it's more often the other way around. They're Jazz fan leagues. Realistically, I'd expect MORE homerism for Jazz players, but I've observed serious fantasy undervaluation for Boozer, AK, Korver, at least. It's actually kind of weird.

Also, if you go cat-by-cat, Millsap and Griffin tie 4-4-1 (tied at 1.3 spg). Millsap wins the irrelevant 3pt category but he has barely half the turnovers and is +80 on FT%. Griffin wins FG% by 65 and the sexy PT/Rebs/asst cats and especially the "Wow did you see that Griffin dunk on Sports Center Highlights??" Category. But Wow Factor and market size are not relevant in Fantasy Basketball, so what Saint portrays as glaringly obvious is actually not.

TheMagnus wrote:

That's actually really funny, because I feel like the evolutionist, using years of good data and facts to prove my points to people who insist that their better judgement and gut feelings are more valid than my empirical evidence.

OK Mags, I'll call you out on data. Show me why Favors has elite potential, GH does not, and specifically, Kanter does not. I think that is a gut call on your part which is fine, but the data don't paint that picture. I will go on record here that Kanter has a better career than Favors based on my gut and eyeballs. Favors, for me, hasn't really shown the same upward trajectory as Kanter.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

That's actually really funny, because I feel like the evolutionist, using years of good data and facts to prove my points to people who insist that their better judgement and gut feelings are more valid than my empirical evidence.

OK Mags, I'll call you out on data. Show me why Favors has elite potential, GH does not, and specifically, Kanter does not. I think that is a gut call on your part which is fine, but the data don't paint that picture. I will go on record here that Kanter has a better career than Favors based on my gut and eyeballs. Favors, for me, hasn't really shown the same upward trajectory as Kanter.

That one is definitely a gut call, it is Millsap specifically were the data and overwhelming proof comes in.

The thing about potential is that it may never become reality, that is the case with any of these guys.

Saint was wrong when he said that my "elite" was his "above average", I specifically said in my previous post that there are only a few truly elite players in the entire NBA, but Saint is also absolutely right that the line is definitely arbitrary depending on who you talk to.

The reason I peg Favors potential over the others is because he has something the others, including Kanter, simply don't have, and that is elite size AND athleticism. That doesn't guarantee a player becomes elite, but fits the very definition of potential for growth into an overall elite player.

You may have a point about Kanter, but I think his path to being elite is steeper than Favors, simply because he's going to have to make up for his lack of elite athleticism with a wide variety of elite skills, a-la Kevin Love or Dirk. For Favors to be elite he just has to learn how to use his size and athleticism to dominate around the rim on both sides of the ball. He doesn't have to shoot jumpers, he doesn't have to be an amazing scorer, if he can dominate the paint defensively and finish around the rim offensively he will be an elite player in the NBA.

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Sorry, Mt Jazz, but your optimism would destroy the Jazz.

Center: Kanter is not an above average Center. At some point he has the potential to be an above average Center, but, he's not there yet. I'd definitely put Kanter in the top 45, but, not in the top 20.

PF: Millsap is not an above average PF. He's a wonderful player that fits solidly in the range of "Average starting Power Forwards."

SF: HayHey is defintitely not an above average SF. Hayhey has potential to be an above average SF, but, he's not anywhere near that right now. Toronto has two Sfs (Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan) that are better than our guy right now. The rest of the league also has better SFs. I love Hayhey, but he ain't in the top 20 of SFs.

SG: Burks is nowhere near an average SG. IMO, he's not even in the Jazz' current top 3 SG rotation. (Foye, Hayhey, DC, and even Mo Williams are better options than Burks right now. I hope he continues to improve, but, he needs to improve to stay in the NBA.

PG: Mo was my biggest disapointment of this year for the Jazz. I was hoping he could be a better version of Devin Harris (I didn't have the aspiration that he would be better than D-Will). Mo really has the potential to be an average PG in the NBA, but, his injuries prevented him from being even that this year.

I'll hold off on looking at what you think is a great Jazz bench, because I'm sure I've said enough to make you hate me for my honest opinion. I'm a Jazz fan, but I'm not seeing the Jazz future with your eyes.

Whew, Saint, and that pessimism would kill any fans fandom...

But, opinions are opinions, so I'll seriously disagree with you with mine.

Kanter. Right now, RIGHT now he's an average Center, and if you look at all the averages around the league, its crazy not to already call him above average. When he's gotten 20minutes or so finally, this kid is shooting a high 50s, and a double double with high FT%. Tell me how many Centers are doing that? Not to mention 2nd year Centers. And seeing as how this is his first real season, and the first time we can actually form an informed opinion on him, he is above average going on really good. There's no reason to think he wont be good, and since he's 20 and already average to good, he should be looked at as a great player going forward.

Millsap. Seriously? So what is Blake Griffin? Is he considered above average? I'd guess you think so. And if thats the case, go look at what they've done this year. They're having the same season. Except Paul is a better outside shooter. Dude is 100% above average, even playing with a guy like Al who brings him down, and doesn't have a PG like CP3 making him better.

Hayward. Funny you chose Derozan, because again, go look. He and Hayward are having the exact same season. Except Hayward is a 6th man, and DD is starting. And our guy isn't above average?? mannnnnnnn.

Burks. How can you not feel good about this guy? This is the first season he's gotten some play, and he's showing real talent. What do you expect? Nobody is saying he was a bad draft pick. He's shown he's a good scorer, has shown he DOES actually have a 3pt shot and has done nothing but improve. Average for a 2nd year player? AT LEAST.

Its not homer stuff here, I'm just looking more at what is. Surprised you're so down on this team.

I think someones hacked Saints account, or switched his meds. First he gets all butt-hurt over a fairly benign post from me, then he lays into Rawns about his fantasy team, then he trots this bit of "realism", and I'm not even sure what all that was over in the Fantasy league a week or two ago.

All very uncharacteristic if you ask me. You ok Saint? Cause you don't seem like yourself lately....

Thanks for the concern, Mag! I enjoy your posts and honestly have great respect for you. (The Fantasy Smack Talk was only Smack Talk-- I saw your team and my team and how many games my guys played and how few your guys played and knew there was no way your team would come close to mine [even when jammyjam Nelson went down for the entire week, I still destroyed].)

I also respect MtJazz and Mu quite a bit.

But, MtJazz illustrated my point with his efficiency stats. The best efficiency stats of a Jazz player on the list was Millsap, and that was 16th! 16th is exactly in the middle (there are 32 teams-- if you are 16th you are average). I understand you can look at non-starters, bench players, and D-League players who occasionally make it up to the NBA and come away with idea that 16th is above average. But, like I said, that's a recipe for disaster.

And, of course, stats are very useful, but not at all anywhere close to a determining factor on which players are "better." "Better" is very subjective, so I appreciate someone saying Hayhey is better or at least as good as DeMar DeRozan. (And I hope next year, my man Hayhey IS better than DeMar DeRozan.) This year, DeRozan has played against starters in the East (where the tweener position, SG/SF, is tougher in the East than in the West) while Our man has usually come off the bench and done wonderful things. DeRozan is an average SG/SF (now that Rudy Gay is in Toronto, DeRozan plays mostly SG), and Rudy Gay is a slightly above average SF. Right now, at best, our guy is an average SF. Almost every team in the NBA has at least one SF that is as good or better than Our Guy. I used Toronto as an example (Gay and DeRozan) because Toronto is a so-so team, even in the East. I didn't use teams like MIA, NYK, or Boston, because all of them are doing well, and also have at least two SFs that are at least as good as Hayhey (LeBron/Battier/Miller, Melo/JR Smith, Pierce/Green) (and, don't bother to quote me the stats on Battier, Miller, Smith or Green).

I guess I could go on, position by position.... But, look at the stats MtJazz has provided. 16 is average (for a starter), and top ten (eleven, technically) moves a player above average. I am a Jazz fan, and I'm a huge Hayhey and Millsap fan (even a pretty big Kanter fan). But, I don't feel the need to twist statistics or overlook the obvious when I'm talking about the team I love.

I've always respected your opinions here too, you always seem to approach these things with a level head and a keen insight.

Your logic is a bit flawed here though.

Millsap was #16 among "forwards", technically that is both the SF and PF, and in reality it also includes several players [cough]Tim Duncan[/cough] that are really Centers. Hollinger has him as the #6 PF in the NBA in both PER and WinsAdded, better than guys like Zach Randolph and Lamarcus Aldrige in both categories despite fewer minutes (matters in WinScore).

Gay and Derozan are not better than Hayward now, they just play more and shoot more.

Hollinger has Hayward rated as the #7 SG in the league for PER and #12 in WinsAdded Making him "above average" in both cats by your definition, and he's miles ahead of both DeRozan and Gay in PER. He'd be slightly lower if he was ranked as a SF because the field is deeper, but still "above average" by both measures, and better than most of the guys you listed there.

And don't short change Gordon's Minutes either. He's played pretty much the entire 4th quarter of every game this year, that matters.

Burks on the whole is well below average, but since he got his confidence back and has been getting regular rotation minutes his production has been on par with guys like DeRozan and OJ Mayo. Most people are seeing that as a glimpse of his potential, and we'll have to wait until next year to see if that is a mirage or real growth in a young player (only 21).

Kanter is only 20. That cannot be overstated. I posted a link before comparing him to Big Al at the same age and the comparison is uncanny. Right now if the trajectory holds he projects to be a Carlos Boozer/Big Al offensively with better defense. No kidding. That is pretty freaking good.

I get that you are down on this team, but there is some really really good talent here that actually gets MORE impressive when you really dig into the numbers. Nobody is going to be elite (Favors is the only one that I think even has the potential), but there are only a handful of those guys in the league who are. Memphis and Denver are really glimpses into the future of this Jazz team I think. Neither of those teams have a player that I would consider elite, but they both are fringe contenders that nobody really wants to play in the playoffs. Keep this young group together, add the right pieces through the draft and free agency, and in 2 to 3 years this Jazz team is considered a possible contender. You can write that down and hold me to it.

Points taken. Good response. I don't agree, but I see what you are saying. I think one of the main problems with your outlook is that what you call "elite" is what I call "above average." If the players aren't "elite" it's a very fine line between average and above average-- but, I'll admit a player can be above average without being an elite player.

I think you are trying to use statistics over your very good rational discrimination. I think you have a point you believe (and want to believe) and are looking for anything to prove you correct. I hesitate to use this analgy, and, I hope I don't offend you or any on our forumotion site, but: your argument is like a "Creationist" trying to argue against "Evolution."

I'm a Jazz fan. But, I've got to tell you: Rudy Gay is a better SF than Hayhey, and, DeRozan is a better SF than Hayhey. If you want to look at really lousy teams in the East with better SFs than Hayhey, let's look at the Charlotte Bobcats (Henderson and Kidd-Gilchrest).

Hayhey is currently my favorite NBA player. I don't think he's the best, or even near the best. I just love to watch him play. I'm not delusional, though, about how good he is now or what he can become. Just to clue you in, I was a big Bryon Russell fan (back when we had Stockton, Malone, and Horny). Hayhey (IMO) is better than B-Russ, but, we don't have a Stockton, Malone, or Hornicek.

Copywrite submitted.

Saint Louis wrote:

I'm a Jazz fan. But, I've got to tell you: Rudy Gay is a better SF than Hayhey, and, DeRozan is a better SF than Hayhey. If you want to look at really lousy teams in the East with better SFs than Hayhey, let's look at the Charlotte Bobcats (Henderson and Kidd-Gilchrest).

Hayhey is currently my favorite NBA player. I don't think he's the best, or even near the best. I just love to watch him play. I'm not delusional, though, about how good he is now or what he can become. Just to clue you in, I was a big Bryon Russell fan (back when we had Stockton, Malone, and Horny). Hayhey (IMO) is better than B-Russ, but, we don't have a Stockton, Malone, or Hornicek.

This is the only part left for me. I'm in the same boat Saint, loving watching Hayward play. Same with Kanter. I think its their relentlessness and competitiveness with a good skill set.
With that, I'll 100% argue that Derozan is better than Gordo. About the only thing DD is better than Gordo is, is maybe drives to the basket and finishing right now. GH is a better defender, 3pt shooter, mid-range shooter, passer, even shot blocker.