Devin Harris Traded!!

rorybreaker wrote:

At the start this year, with the 8 guys at $20 million the Jazz needed to upgrade Bell, Millsap, Big Al, Harris or have them justify their new contracts with the team next year.
I don't mind Mo' but he is basically a wash with Harris, maybe a little better but for sure not the elite PG the Jazz need for the future, but for one year no big deal.
They take on Marvin for TWO years, he will for sure exercise his option year, and that will set the Jazz's needs for a SF/SG back that much further. The question isn't CJ or Josh it's about an upgrade, not taking on TWO years of Marvin or any marginal fill in at least for the amount he is owed. At that price you don't think he will be on the floor taking minutes from Burks?
I honestly would have rather had Carroll on the floor and a MLE player filling in until the right SF comes along, maybe next year in the draft or free agency.
I wonder if Bell is going anywhere or if they might have to eat $3.4 million in salary. I'm not sure that I like where this is going but I still trust KOC. I just don't like this movement so far.

Yea, thats the one thing gnawing at me is why bringing on another year with Marvin? Makes me think that since this wont be settled until July 11th, that there maybe be something else for Utah. Its obvious that ATL is now clearing out contracts to go after Dwight and even CP3 later. And this trade may be included in the big JJ to NJ trade too, for a mega trade. I do love that our team is making moves though, finally!!!
But KOC isn't just going to help out ATL, and we did need a SF, 3pt shooting, another big and absolutely did not need Devin. But there has to be more than just the one for one players. I still look at this as an improvement to the team, but there has to be something else, right?

Statistical analysis on Marvin vs other recent Jazz SF's (for those of you who like that kind of thing ..... magnus)


http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/7/2/3134062/statistical-analysis-marvin-williams-josh-howard-c-j-miles-and-andrei

Yes, it seems likely Marvin would opt in to that last year of his contract, causing the Jazz to lose precious cap space going into an offseason that they will have tons of spending cash. BUT .... he would also become an expiring contract, which could lead to a trade for a better player. Never know how these things will shake out. Hell, maybe he'll have a career year and be well worth the $7+ million.

Also, since this can't be finalized for about a week, we may see something else added to this deal. Draft picks, end of the bench players, rights to recent picks, a third team ... who knows.

I think you guys are seriously understating/rating Marvin Williams. He was a bit of a bust due to his draft position, but he is a qulity player who is just coming into his potential and his prime.

I'm actually a bit concerned that he plays so well he opts out and we don't get him for two years.

I'll post more on this when I get some time...

My hope now is that Mo Williams can carry heavier minutes (36+) at PG. Having Marvin Williams should allow Hayward to play more SG, so with him and burks we should be set there.

Biggest weakness on the team is still backup PG.

A number of things I like about this trade:

First, we are getting a player who is nearing the end of his contract, and is getting a fresh start, who has something to prove. He is young enough to fit in with our other young guns and talented enough to compete. This makes for great internal competition and will push guys like Hayward and Burks to improve sooner rather than later.

Second, Williams shot 39% from 3-point land and close to 80% from the line. These are both upgrades over CJ, plus Williams is actually able to rebound and play a little defense. The Jazz are really better at spacing the floor and passing the ball, which makes for more open looks. Like many players who have come to the Jazz in the past and had their best years, I anticipate Williams too will thrive in Utah.

Third, virtually every player shows significant improvement in their second year as opposed to their first. Williams having a second year option bodes really well if he is solid his first year, he'll prove to be a steal in the second, unless as Mag's pointed out he plays so well the first year he can get more by opting out the second year. Then, the Jazz will still be in a position to pay him more than anyone else if they want to keep him.

Fourth, this years playoffs showed the importance of having solid role-players to compliment the teams stars. Building our bench could very well be as important to our success this next year as upgrading our PG position is.

Personally, I like the fact we added a PG who is a little better at distributing the ball, and has shown he can take on the role of a scorer or be content to be a pass first, score second PG, as he was when he played with James. In addition, we added a viable, proven 3 point threat. I think a lot of folks remember Harris down the stretch when his shot was falling and forget his earlier shooting woes. With Williams and Williams both being able to shoot and make 3-point shots at a 39% clip, the whole offense opens up.

If Hayward and Burks continue to improve as most of us think they will, I think both Williams and Williams will prove to be very good additions and significant upgrades compared to their counterparts from last year.

ptaz66 wrote:

With Williams and Williams both being able to shoot and make 3-point shots at a 39% clip, the whole offense opens up.

I think we could be setting our expectations too high for Marvin's three point shooting. Mo's a career 38.7% three point shooter, but Marvin's a career 32.9% three point shooter --- same as CJ. That's a big difference between those guys and Mo. The good news though is that Marvin's 39% three point shooting season was just last season whereas CJ's 39% season was five seasons ago. Marvin could be on the upswing. That being said, I will be happy if Marvin knocks them down at 35% and extra happy if he knocks them down at 36% and above.

On another note, maybe we will get some kind of bonus out of the fact that our head coach was such a hard nosed, small forward himself on the defensive end. Corbin didn't last sixteen seasons in the NBA for lack of bringing anything to the table. Maybe he can teach Marvin a few things. Don't know whether it has much to do with Corbin, but Hayward is already becoming a pretty good defensive player at that position.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

ptaz66 wrote:

With Williams and Williams both being able to shoot and make 3-point shots at a 39% clip, the whole offense opens up.

I think we could be setting our expectations too high for Marvin's three point shooting. Mo's a career 38.7% three point shooter, but Marvin's a career 32.9% three point shooter --- same as CJ. That's a big difference between those guys and Mo. The good news though is that Marvin's 39% three point shooting season was just last season whereas CJ's 39% season was five seasons ago. Marvin could be on the upswing. That being said, I will be happy if Marvin knocks them down at 35% and extra happy if he knocks them down at 36% and above.

On another note, maybe we will get some kind of bonus out of the fact that our head coach was such a hard nosed, small forward himself on the defensive end. Corbin didn't last sixteen seasons in the NBA for lack of bringing anything to the table. Maybe he can teach Marvin a few things. Don't know whether it has much to do with Corbin, but Hayward is already becoming a pretty good defensive player at that position.

According to season ending stats, Marvin and Mo were basically tied at 34-35th best 3 point shooters in the league last year hitting 0.389. That was a huge surprise to me as I hadn't checked. However, there are a boatload of players who are for all practical purposes hit about the same percentage, for instance Harris ranked 76th hitting 0.362 and #100 is Steve Blake at 0.335, and I'm going to argue that on a game outcome basis there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between 0.335 and 0.389, (basically hitting 5.4 more shots per 100 long balls launched). Our former man Korver checked in at #10 hitting 0.435 and Steve Novak, #1 hit on an impressive 0.475. Would love to see Korver back - opponents would have fits trying to shut down both the inside and outside game.

MTJazz wrote:

I'm going to argue that on a game outcome basis there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between 0.335 and 0.389, (basically hitting 5.4 more shots per 100 long balls launched).

I disagree with you a little bit there Mt. Jazz. With Mo being a career 39% three point shooter who has been maintaining that percentage on 4.5 plus attempts the last couple of years, I think opposing teams have to discuss that stat and game plan for it from the get go, asking their defenses to stay on him more and sag off him on help defense to a lesser extent than they would for career 33.5% shooters. I think Mo's very presence on the perimeter will help space things out for Al, Paul and Derrick, similar to what Korver's presence did, and thus impact the outcome of the game in another way besides the difference in actual scoring between a 39% and 33% shooter. JMHO.

MTJazz wrote:

Crunchtime1 wrote:

ptaz66 wrote:

With Williams and Williams both being able to shoot and make 3-point shots at a 39% clip, the whole offense opens up.

I think we could be setting our expectations too high for Marvin's three point shooting. Mo's a career 38.7% three point shooter, but Marvin's a career 32.9% three point shooter --- same as CJ. That's a big difference between those guys and Mo. The good news though is that Marvin's 39% three point shooting season was just last season whereas CJ's 39% season was five seasons ago. Marvin could be on the upswing. That being said, I will be happy if Marvin knocks them down at 35% and extra happy if he knocks them down at 36% and above.

On another note, maybe we will get some kind of bonus out of the fact that our head coach was such a hard nosed, small forward himself on the defensive end. Corbin didn't last sixteen seasons in the NBA for lack of bringing anything to the table. Maybe he can teach Marvin a few things. Don't know whether it has much to do with Corbin, but Hayward is already becoming a pretty good defensive player at that position.

According to season ending stats, Marvin and Mo were basically tied at 34-35th best 3 point shooters in the league last year hitting 0.389. That was a huge surprise to me as I hadn't checked. However, there are a boatload of players who are for all practical purposes hit about the same percentage, for instance Harris ranked 76th hitting 0.362 and #100 is Steve Blake at 0.335, and I'm going to argue that on a game outcome basis there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between 0.335 and 0.389, (basically hitting 5.4 more shots per 100 long balls launched). Our former man Korver checked in at #10 hitting 0.435 and Steve Novak, #1 hit on an impressive 0.475. Would love to see Korver back - opponents would have fits trying to shut down both the inside and outside game.

The Jazz have to decide if they want to be a 3-point shooting team or not, they had Okur and Korver who were arguably two of the best 3-point shooters in the league and while Jerry was here they almost apologized for hitting the three. Jerry accepted it but didn't ever want to live or die by the three so he didn't actively pursue it as a primary option. So while he had some great shooters they were never used in ways that other teams in the league use their three point game.
I'm not clear at all about Corbins plan for the three, if it's only going to be used to open up the court more and keep defense's honest or if he would like to treat it as a solid option and go after players that are good three point shooters. I'll never forget all the people that said when Korver left, "well he can't play defense, we need smebody that can"...like Raja. It's very seldom you find a guy that can shoot the long ball and play great defense, and usually they get paid accordingly, what's MJ wannabe making this year, $27 million?

MTJazz wrote:

According to season ending stats, Marvin and Mo were basically tied at 34-35th best 3 point shooters in the league last year hitting 0.389. That was a huge surprise to me as I hadn't checked. However, there are a boatload of players who are for all practical purposes hit about the same percentage, for instance Harris ranked 76th hitting 0.362 and #100 is Steve Blake at 0.335, and I'm going to argue that on a game outcome basis there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between 0.335 and 0.389, (basically hitting 5.4 more shots per 100 long balls launched). Our former man Korver checked in at #10 hitting 0.435 and Steve Novak, #1 hit on an impressive 0.475. Would love to see Korver back - opponents would have fits trying to shut down both the inside and outside game.

Right, I think thats using the qualified stats, which is good, but also have to look at with Mo and Marv tied at 34-35 at 39%, it also puts them tied with 21-22nd players with 39% also. I think there are so many intangibles that aren't being included too though. For example, Mo shot his percentage last year while playing with alot of second units etc. Marv has never had a solid dominant low post player that created space, nor has he had a good PG like Mo to set him up. These things matter, and we could be in for quite a sight.

I think ideally, and to Rorybreaker above too, getting these guys will also help with taking what the opposing team gives. I think Utah sometimes, for bad and good, tries to only take the shots they want. Sometimes it just pays to take what the defense gives you, since thats usually a pretty wide open shot. Now, with Al dominating down low, probably Fav/Paul too and with very good passers like Gordo and Mo, we can take an open 3 if it's given. Marv/Mo/Gordo and I believe Burks, will be good 3pt shooters this year and will be looked at as "thats a good shot".
I loved Jerry, but that was his biggest fault IMO, was not using the 3pt capability of Memo and Korver well. Mo is a good three point shooter. And I think with open shots due to our low post ability, Marv will be too; Make that GH and Burks included.

I don't ever see the Jazz featuring the 3-point game simply because they have such a stacked and potent paint offense. While I am hopeful that with Mo, Marvin and hopefully improved shooting from Burks and Hayward the 3 point game becomes a situational go-to option, (like trying to catch up with time running out), in the end the Jazz simply need high percentage jump shooting. I really think it is the only "piece" the Jazz are missing to become a real threat in the West as constituted they are close to being the deepest team in the league at all positions save SG. If Hayward and Burks can continue to improve, (and they don't have to improve that much) they will be the deepest, and that incremental improvement is pretty likely. To take the team over the top though in the meantime, they need a drop dead jump shooter.

MTJazz wrote:

I don't ever see the Jazz featuring the 3-point game simply because they have such a stacked and potent paint offense. While I am hopeful that with Mo, Marvin and hopefully improved shooting from Burks and Hayward the 3 point game becomes a situational go-to option, (like trying to catch up with time running out), in the end the Jazz simply need high percentage jump shooting. I really think it is the only "piece" the Jazz are missing to become a real threat in the West as constituted they are close to being the deepest team in the league at all positions save SG. If Hayward and Burks can continue to improve, (and they don't have to improve that much) they will be the deepest, and that incremental improvement is pretty likely. To take the team over the top though in the meantime, they need a drop dead jump shooter.

Mo has a very good mid range game. GH seems to have figured it out too, and will be better. I also thought that Burks already showed his mid-range game is very good, he just needed and now will get the minutes. And definitely dont forget Paul has a very solid mid range jumper, especially that baseline.
But agree on improvements. I think we're good, without a drop dead shooter, which not many have.
If no more additions or trades, I definitely like this team with the additions we've gotten, combined with the improvements we'll see from our young guys. I like this team as like 5th-6th seed minimum. We're going to be good.

Mutangclan wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

I don't ever see the Jazz featuring the 3-point game simply because they have such a stacked and potent paint offense. While I am hopeful that with Mo, Marvin and hopefully improved shooting from Burks and Hayward the 3 point game becomes a situational go-to option, (like trying to catch up with time running out), in the end the Jazz simply need high percentage jump shooting. I really think it is the only "piece" the Jazz are missing to become a real threat in the West as constituted they are close to being the deepest team in the league at all positions save SG. If Hayward and Burks can continue to improve, (and they don't have to improve that much) they will be the deepest, and that incremental improvement is pretty likely. To take the team over the top though in the meantime, they need a drop dead jump shooter.

Mo has a very good mid range game. GH seems to have figured it out too, and will be better. I also thought that Burks already showed his mid-range game is very good, he just needed and now will get the minutes. And definitely dont forget Paul has a very solid mid range jumper, especially that baseline.
But agree on improvements. I think we're good, without a drop dead shooter, which not many have.
If no more additions or trades, I definitely like this team with the additions we've gotten, combined with the improvements we'll see from our young guys. I like this team as like 5th-6th seed minimum. We're going to be good.

I think they could easily get close to getting home court in the playoffs, I hope Mo's game personality rubs off on the young guys too, that's one area that Harris didn't seem to have like D Will and Stockton did. They both took it upon themselves on the floor to get hit, spit out some blood and get back in there for more

David Locke

Have been asking around about Marvin Williams - wow he must be one solid dude (examples coming) because the praise for him as a person and his work ethic comes from everywhere and people want to make sure I understand what a great guy he is Example #1 Marv is a great kid. Stand up dude. Works his tail off. You'll love dealing with him, too. - #2 - . Love the kid. Love his attitude. Love his spirit. Example #3 - You're gonna love Marvin...great kid, professional, works hard. - Can't wait !!

Mutangclan wrote:

David Locke

Have been asking around about Marvin Williams - wow he must be one solid dude (examples coming) because the praise for him as a person and his work ethic comes from everywhere and people want to make sure I understand what a great guy he is Example #1 Marv is a great kid. Stand up dude. Works his tail off. You'll love dealing with him, too. - #2 - . Love the kid. Love his attitude. Love his spirit. Example #3 - You're gonna love Marvin...great kid, professional, works hard. - Can't wait !!

Nice report! I am very glad to hear that.

rorybreaker wrote:

The Jazz have to decide if they want to be a 3-point shooting team or not

We were second from the bottom in three point attempts last year, but that was justified considering we we were also third from the bottom in three point percentage. I think we have to make it a little more part of a game than that to remain competitive in the modern era, and Mo, Hayward and hopefully Marvin will help us in that regard. But with Favors expected to come on even stronger this year, going inside will and should remain our primary focus. I'll be pretty happy if we bump up our three point stats to 15 to 15.5 attempts per game with 35% shooting. JMO.

I just looked at a few random stats, and there were a record 12 teams that averaged 20 or more three point attempts per game last season. Three years ago there were only seven teams taking 20 or more three point attempts. But Boston and Miami, two great teams, were only at 15 and 15.6 attempts with 36.7% and 35.9% shooting respectively. The Thunder were at 20 attempts with 35.8% shooting and the Spurs led the NBA with 21.1 attempts per game with 39.7% shooting.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/7/5/3139381/marvin-williams-work-ethic-or-system-issues


Good read. with all the slow news nice to have something.

Troll, help me out on this one! You seem to be cozying up to this trade, and I'd like to do the same! You and I both have followed Williams pretty closely through our fantasy leagues over his career, and we've both felt burned since we expected him to break-out in Atlanta, a "system" that should have allowed him to over-achieve. I want to be on board with KOC with this (because I think KOC usually over-performs), but I just don't see Williams ever becoming what the Jazz need: a reliable 3-pt shooter at either the sf or sg position who can hit close to 40% or above!

I think we have both had high expectations for Williams, but, I don't see how putting Williams in a more rigid structure is going to enable him to improve on his disappointing years in the NBA. I haven't done any research on it, but I'm not aware of a situation where Williams worked his ass off to get an open 3pt shot and was ignored by the Atlanta ball-hogs. From what I've seen, his offense has been based on very few opportunities with below-average results, and his defense has been at it's best when he's mopping up what his team-mates overlook. Of course, Atlanta is extremely different than Utah, so "a fresh start" might be what Williams needs. But, wow, to me it looks like the Jazz need Williams to play up to his potential from back when he left college.

Saint Louis wrote:

Troll, help me out on this one! You seem to be cozying up to this trade, and I'd like to do the same! You and I both have followed Williams pretty closely through our fantasy leagues over his career, and we've both felt burned since we expected him to break-out in Atlanta, a "system" that should have allowed him to over-achieve. I want to be on board with KOC with this (because I think KOC usually over-performs), but I just don't see Williams ever becoming what the Jazz need: a reliable 3-pt shooter at either the sf or sg position who can hit close to 40% or above!

I think we have both had high expectations for Williams, but, I don't see how putting Williams in a more rigid structure is going to enable him to improve on his disappointing years in the NBA. I haven't done any research on it, but I'm not aware of a situation where Williams worked his ass off to get an open 3pt shot and was ignored by the Atlanta ball-hogs. From what I've seen, his offense has been based on very few opportunities with below-average results, and his defense has been at it's best when he's mopping up what his team-mates overlook. Of course, Atlanta is extremely different than Utah, so "a fresh start" might be what Williams needs. But, wow, to me it looks like the Jazz need Williams to play up to his potential from back when he left college.

Hey SL, since no one chimed in, let me put in my two cents:

First off, for the trade, we had no need for Devin. So IMO we in essence only added to this team, a 3pt shooter SF/PF, who plays good perimeter defense and is a good slasher. And we lost nothing. So big PLUS there.

Secondly, ATL has been a team that was a ton run with isolations. Now, Marv is coming to a team that works the ball around, and more than ATL ever did, gets a good shot. I think Marv will have better looks than he ever has because of a) a good offense working for a good shot and b) low post dominance that forces teams to help. Marv will be the beneficiary of all those corner 3's and other. Marv has also never played with a good PG. He now does that and has teammates that are great passers. For the first time in his career, he has a PG and teammates that will be setting him up to be successful scoring the ball. Never had that in ATL.

Third, he never should have been a 2 pick. So much like Jimmer, it wasn't fair. Whats the one thing a guy in their shoes always needs to get better? Fresh start, fresh fans, fresh expectations. There's every reason in the world to think that Marv will have one of his best seasons ever, aside from maybe the minutes he has to play. I'm excited.

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Troll, help me out on this one! You seem to be cozying up to this trade, and I'd like to do the same! You and I both have followed Williams pretty closely through our fantasy leagues over his career, and we've both felt burned since we expected him to break-out in Atlanta, a "system" that should have allowed him to over-achieve. I want to be on board with KOC with this (because I think KOC usually over-performs), but I just don't see Williams ever becoming what the Jazz need: a reliable 3-pt shooter at either the sf or sg position who can hit close to 40% or above!

I think we have both had high expectations for Williams, but, I don't see how putting Williams in a more rigid structure is going to enable him to improve on his disappointing years in the NBA. I haven't done any research on it, but I'm not aware of a situation where Williams worked his ass off to get an open 3pt shot and was ignored by the Atlanta ball-hogs. From what I've seen, his offense has been based on very few opportunities with below-average results, and his defense has been at it's best when he's mopping up what his team-mates overlook. Of course, Atlanta is extremely different than Utah, so "a fresh start" might be what Williams needs. But, wow, to me it looks like the Jazz need Williams to play up to his potential from back when he left college.

Hey SL, since no one chimed in, let me put in my two cents:

First off, for the trade, we had no need for Devin. So IMO we in essence only added to this team, a 3pt shooter SF/PF, who plays good perimeter defense and is a good slasher. And we lost nothing. So big PLUS there.

Secondly, ATL has been a team that was a ton run with isolations. Now, Marv is coming to a team that works the ball around, and more than ATL ever did, gets a good shot. I think Marv will have better looks than he ever has because of a) a good offense working for a good shot and b) low post dominance that forces teams to help. Marv will be the beneficiary of all those corner 3's and other. Marv has also never played with a good PG. He now does that and has teammates that are great passers. For the first time in his career, he has a PG and teammates that will be setting him up to be successful scoring the ball. Never had that in ATL.

Third, he never should have been a 2 pick. So much like Jimmer, it wasn't fair. Whats the one thing a guy in their shoes always needs to get better? Fresh start, fresh fans, fresh expectations. There's every reason in the world to think that Marv will have one of his best seasons ever, aside from maybe the minutes he has to play. I'm excited.

MuTang, you know I almost always agree with everything you say. Don't get mad at me if I only agree with about half of what you say here!

First off, you say Devin Harris is useless to the Jazz, so anything we can get for him is a plus. I'm doing mental backflips in my chair to figure that one out. IMO, Devin Harris is AT LEAST one of the best 32 PGs in the league. I'm actually a big Mo W fan (maybe since I'm a Jazz fan), but, I absolutely disagree that Mo is a HUGE improvement at the PG position. Frankly, I haven't been convinced Mo Will is ANY better for the Jazz than Dev Harris! But, I think I understand your point (I just disagree with it).

Secondly, (and I really wish Troll would chime in on this cnversation) you seem to be saying Marvin Williams was not suited to Atlanta's style of play, and may fit in better with the Jazz. I hope you're right. But, I don't see it. Williams (IMO) should have exploded into the NBA-- but, year after year, he fell away from his potential.

As for your 3rd point, Mu, I'm half with you (but only in hind-sight). Marvin Williams turned out to be a dud of a pick for Atlanta (but, I bet nobody in the NBA would have taken anyone else). We may have made a similar mistake in taking Kanter so high. But, where he was taken in a draft doesn't relate to his current value. I hope Marvin Williams works out for the Jazz, and I'll leave it at that. We still have moves we can make, so, I'm more optimistic about those than I am for this trade.

Saint Louis wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

Troll, help me out on this one! You seem to be cozying up to this trade, and I'd like to do the same! You and I both have followed Williams pretty closely through our fantasy leagues over his career, and we've both felt burned since we expected him to break-out in Atlanta, a "system" that should have allowed him to over-achieve. I want to be on board with KOC with this (because I think KOC usually over-performs), but I just don't see Williams ever becoming what the Jazz need: a reliable 3-pt shooter at either the sf or sg position who can hit close to 40% or above!

I think we have both had high expectations for Williams, but, I don't see how putting Williams in a more rigid structure is going to enable him to improve on his disappointing years in the NBA. I haven't done any research on it, but I'm not aware of a situation where Williams worked his ass off to get an open 3pt shot and was ignored by the Atlanta ball-hogs. From what I've seen, his offense has been based on very few opportunities with below-average results, and his defense has been at it's best when he's mopping up what his team-mates overlook. Of course, Atlanta is extremely different than Utah, so "a fresh start" might be what Williams needs. But, wow, to me it looks like the Jazz need Williams to play up to his potential from back when he left college.

Hey SL, since no one chimed in, let me put in my two cents:

First off, for the trade, we had no need for Devin. So IMO we in essence only added to this team, a 3pt shooter SF/PF, who plays good perimeter defense and is a good slasher. And we lost nothing. So big PLUS there.

Secondly, ATL has been a team that was a ton run with isolations. Now, Marv is coming to a team that works the ball around, and more than ATL ever did, gets a good shot. I think Marv will have better looks than he ever has because of a) a good offense working for a good shot and b) low post dominance that forces teams to help. Marv will be the beneficiary of all those corner 3's and other. Marv has also never played with a good PG. He now does that and has teammates that are great passers. For the first time in his career, he has a PG and teammates that will be setting him up to be successful scoring the ball. Never had that in ATL.

Third, he never should have been a 2 pick. So much like Jimmer, it wasn't fair. Whats the one thing a guy in their shoes always needs to get better? Fresh start, fresh fans, fresh expectations. There's every reason in the world to think that Marv will have one of his best seasons ever, aside from maybe the minutes he has to play. I'm excited.

MuTang, you know I almost always agree with everything you say. Don't get mad at me if I only agree with about half of what you say here!

First off, you say Devin Harris is useless to the Jazz, so anything we can get for him is a plus. I'm doing mental backflips in my chair to figure that one out. IMO, Devin Harris is AT LEAST one of the best 32 PGs in the league. I'm actually a big Mo W fan (maybe since I'm a Jazz fan), but, I absolutely disagree that Mo is a HUGE improvement at the PG position. Frankly, I haven't been convinced Mo Will is ANY better for the Jazz than Dev Harris! But, I think I understand your point (I just disagree with it).

Secondly, (and I really wish Troll would chime in on this cnversation) you seem to be saying Marvin Williams was not suited to Atlanta's style of play, and may fit in better with the Jazz. I hope you're right. But, I don't see it. Williams (IMO) should have exploded into the NBA-- but, year after year, he fell away from his potential.

As for your 3rd point, Mu, I'm half with you (but only in hind-sight). Marvin Williams turned out to be a dud of a pick for Atlanta (but, I bet nobody in the NBA would have taken anyone else). We may have made a similar mistake in taking Kanter so high. But, where he was taken in a draft doesn't relate to his current value. I hope Marvin Williams works out for the Jazz, and I'll leave it at that. We still have moves we can make, so, I'm more optimistic about those than I am for this trade.

I tend to agree more with Mutang on the first point. I think Mo is an upgrade or will become an upgrade over Harris. I anticipate Mo will start out at the level Harris finished last year and will improve from there as the season progresses and he becomes more familiar with the guys he's playing with. I agree a huge improvement may be a little optimistic, but I think Mo will most certainly be a significant improvement.

In the case of Marvin, I think he makes us a better team for a number of reasons. First, he's coming off his best year at shooting from 3-point range. We need improved 3-point shooting. I know some will argue his career average is below last years average. Point conceded, but isn't the expectation to get better each year? I think last years % was a result of improvement, not an anomally.

Second, he's coming to a team who plays inside out and has been consistently good at passing the ball for years, meaning he's going to get a lot of good looks. This should help keep his shooting % up where it was a year ago, if not improve it. There is often a drop off when coming to a new team, which I hope is off-set by the open looks, hence my thinking his % will remain solid, while optimistically hoping it improves.

Third, he's well aware, and even admits, he has not been as consistant as he'd like to be. He indicated he looks at this trade as an opportunity or a second chance to prove himself. Plus, his former Coach and a mentor he trusts, has pointed this out to him then, encouraged and challenged him to make the best of this new opportunity. Recognizing the problem, being provided with, and taking advantage of an opportunity, with the support of those whose opinions are valued, is often the recipe for success when it comes to making significant positive changes in life.

Fourth, the Jazz have consistently done well with players coming in and having the most successful years of their careers while playing here in Utah. I'm actually more afraid he'll be too successful and make it harder to retain him, than him coming in and not bringing enough to the table.

[quote=Fourth, the Jazz have consistently done well with players coming in and having the most successful years of their careers while playing here in Utah. I'm actually more afraid he'll be too successful and make it harder to retain him, than him coming in and not bringing enough to the table.[/quote]

This is what i worry about, But he seems to be a pretty good kid and if he does good i still think he'll see how good and young this team is and want to stay here for the ride. I for one think you'll be looking at 14 to 19 points a game. good D.
5 reb 4 assists 1 steal 1 block for the year. Good numbers if yea ask me. jazz fighting for 4th or 5th seed. Key. jazz getting a good start out of the gates next year.

Saint Louis wrote:

MuTang, you know I almost always agree with everything you say. Don't get mad at me if I only agree with about half of what you say here!

First off, you say Devin Harris is useless to the Jazz, so anything we can get for him is a plus. I'm doing mental backflips in my chair to figure that one out. IMO, Devin Harris is AT LEAST one of the best 32 PGs in the league. I'm actually a big Mo W fan (maybe since I'm a Jazz fan), but, I absolutely disagree that Mo is a HUGE improvement at the PG position. Frankly, I haven't been convinced Mo Will is ANY better for the Jazz than Dev Harris! But, I think I understand your point (I just disagree with it).

Secondly, (and I really wish Troll would chime in on this cnversation) you seem to be saying Marvin Williams was not suited to Atlanta's style of play, and may fit in better with the Jazz. I hope you're right. But, I don't see it. Williams (IMO) should have exploded into the NBA-- but, year after year, he fell away from his potential.

As for your 3rd point, Mu, I'm half with you (but only in hind-sight). Marvin Williams turned out to be a dud of a pick for Atlanta (but, I bet nobody in the NBA would have taken anyone else). We may have made a similar mistake in taking Kanter so high. But, where he was taken in a draft doesn't relate to his current value. I hope Marvin Williams works out for the Jazz, and I'll leave it at that. We still have moves we can make, so, I'm more optimistic about those than I am for this trade.

Hah, thats what this forum is for! Disagreements....

But what I was trying to say, was not that Devin Harris is useless. Just that once we obtained Mo Williams, if you look at them side by side for this team, I think Mo is a much much better fit. And since we had that, we not longer had a need for his services. So by trading him, we didn't create a hole in the team, because we were already up with Mo. And I'll say this, once this season starts I'll bet it all that we wont be having these frustrating times watching Mo like we did with Devin. Mo is a better shooter and will get the ball to our bigs etc much better. And if Mo is a slight improvement on his own vs Devin, it's also that much of an improvement for all the other starters and players, which ends up being pretty significant.
Bet you millions!

** here's an example of this I just found, again from SLCdunk:
http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/7/22/3176179/utah-jazz-playbook-a-deeper-look-into-the-difference-between-devin

And I think Marv has the same problem Jimmer does now: through no fault of his own, he was picked WAYYYYY to high, and for Marv, all on potential. Well, maybe Marv even at his peak will never be good enough to be the 2 pick. Maybe he was more like a 20 pick, which is still pretty good. But in ATL, Joe Johnson dominated the ball and when he didn't Horford had to get involved and Josh Smith needed all his touches. They didn't really run an offense, just isolations. I think Marvin Williams is best suited in a structured offense, where he can score off of moves to the basket, but can also be the outlet from the post. I dont think he's a one on one scorer, like Atlanta was filled with, and what they focused on. I think ATL's consistent mediocre team is a reflection of their non-existing mediocre offense.

Basically, and this just hit me and excites me, whoa yea!! I think Marvin Williams is an exact replica of a much more-talented Shandon Andersen, who we know was very successful in Utah, and was a failure everywhere else. Slashing, baseline layups, corner 3's etc.....Exact replica....!

Mutangclan wrote:

... what I was trying to say, was not that Devin Harris is useless....

Then you're wrong He's useless to the point that many people thought for a big while that Watson should have taken his starting spot Earl "cannot run a darn simple play but I can talk to my agent" Watson !!!!

That said, Haris seems to genuinely be a nice dude... and he play somehow decent ball by season's end