The Jazz are (were?) Special and Different

Outstanding article from SLCdunk, definitely worth a read...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/10/18/3524566/we-are-utah-jazz-the-jazz-are-special-and-different

I've had some of those same feelings. I think it's tough, especialy for the Millers and many fans who tend to wear their hearts on their sleaves, to have players show exactly zero loyalty and not take some of the things that happen personally. Still, I have had some of the same concerns about Jazz fans and management in regards to thier attitudes on both current and past players. With wholesale reactions ranging from flippant disregard for guys who have laid it on the line for the Jazz for years (see Paul Millsap, AK) to blatant classless douchebaggery (See Derrick Fisher, Carlos Boozer, and to a lesser extent D-Will), I find myself often dissapointed in our treatment of our recent past and present players. I feel like something has changed in Jazz Nation over the years, something that has made us less willing to just look at the guys on the team as OUR GUYS, and more likely to look at them as some kind of means to an end, an end that we may not ever reach, and I think that is a great shame.

It doesn't have to be that way, we as Jazz Nation don't have to return disloyalty for disloyalty, percieved or real. We can just accept them as our guys, we can treat them like we used to (once a Jazz man, always a Jazz man, is the way I remember it), and let the buisness of the NBA carry on its cynical way without us.

TheMagnus wrote:

Outstanding article from SLCdunk, definitely worth a read...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/10/18/3524566/we-are-utah-jazz-the-jazz-are-special-and-different

I've had some of those same feelings. I think it's tough, especialy for the Millers and many fans who tend to wear their hearts on their sleaves, to have players show exactly zero loyalty and not take some of the things that happen personally. Still, I have had some of the same concerns about Jazz fans and management in regards to thier attitudes on both current and past players. With wholesale reactions ranging from flippant disregard for guys who have laid it on the line for the Jazz for years (see Paul Millsap, AK) to blatant classless douchebaggery (See Derrick Fisher, Carlos Boozer, and to a lesser extent D-Will), I find myself often dissapointed in our treatment of our recent past and present players. I feel like something has changed in Jazz Nation over the years, something that has made us less willing to just look at the guys on the team as OUR GUYS, and more likely to look at them as some kind of means to an end, an end that we may not ever reach, and I think that is a great shame.

It doesn't have to be that way, we as Jazz Nation don't have to return disloyalty for disloyalty, percieved or real. We can just accept them as our guys, we can treat them like we used to (once a Jazz man, always a Jazz man, is the way I remember it), and let the buisness of the NBA carry on its cynical way without us.

I don't know man. Jazz fans were spoiled by having Karl and John be so loyal to the team for almost 20 years. Me I don't get attached to any player the Jazz bring in, because I have seen guys bail to go to larger markets. Some of the young guys will stay long enough to make a name for themselves and be gone. FA only want to come here if they are way overpaid or don't have many options. NOBODY looks at the Jazz and say's that is a young very talented team that is on the rise I want to play there.

The one thing that does bother me is the way the Jazz have treated Sap, The guy has been loyal and busted his ass for the Jazz, They need to at least offer him a real contract and show him they want him to stay, If they let him walk the will regret it. I don't care about how much money they are going to have this next off season. It doesn't mean much because they are going to be bringing in any top FA guys no matter how much money they have to spend. Lock up your young guys now and show Milsap some respect. This ain't the Heat or Lakers, we can't buy a championship. We can build one with what we have now though.

Romoholic wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Outstanding article from SLCdunk, definitely worth a read...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/10/18/3524566/we-are-utah-jazz-the-jazz-are-special-and-different

I've had some of those same feelings. I think it's tough, especialy for the Millers and many fans who tend to wear their hearts on their sleaves, to have players show exactly zero loyalty and not take some of the things that happen personally. Still, I have had some of the same concerns about Jazz fans and management in regards to thier attitudes on both current and past players. With wholesale reactions ranging from flippant disregard for guys who have laid it on the line for the Jazz for years (see Paul Millsap, AK) to blatant classless douchebaggery (See Derrick Fisher, Carlos Boozer, and to a lesser extent D-Will), I find myself often dissapointed in our treatment of our recent past and present players. I feel like something has changed in Jazz Nation over the years, something that has made us less willing to just look at the guys on the team as OUR GUYS, and more likely to look at them as some kind of means to an end, an end that we may not ever reach, and I think that is a great shame.

It doesn't have to be that way, we as Jazz Nation don't have to return disloyalty for disloyalty, percieved or real. We can just accept them as our guys, we can treat them like we used to (once a Jazz man, always a Jazz man, is the way I remember it), and let the buisness of the NBA carry on its cynical way without us.

I don't know man. Jazz fans were spoiled by having Karl and John be so loyal to the team for almost 20 years. Me I don't get attached to any player the Jazz bring in, because I have seen guys bail to go to larger markets. Some of the young guys will stay long enough to make a name for themselves and be gone. FA only want to come here if they are way overpaid or don't have many options. NOBODY looks at the Jazz and say's that is a young very talented team that is on the rise I want to play there.

The one thing that does bother me is the way the Jazz have treated Sap, The guy has been loyal and busted his ass for the Jazz, They need to at least offer him a real contract and show him they want him to stay, If they let him walk the will regret it. I don't care about how much money they are going to have this next off season. It doesn't mean much because they are going to be bringing in any top FA guys no matter how much money they have to spend. Lock up your young guys now and show Milsap some respect. This ain't the Heat or Lakers, we can't buy a championship. We can build one with what we have now though.

I think the front office has been fairly good to Millsap. They matched his ridiculously front loaded deal when a lot of people (not me, but people) thought they overpaid, and this summer they have offered him all that they are allowed to under the current CBA, knowing that it was well under what he's worth and fully expecting it to be rejected, and made it known that they want him to stay, but that was literally all they could do.

I know a lot of Jazz fans really love Millsap, but much like AK, and Boozer, and Brewer... (should I go on?) I think most of them seriously undervalue him. That is probably normal for sports fans in general, we like to pick at weaknesses when success isn't flowing the way we expect and are always looking for the next shiny thing that will lead us to some imagined glory. But I guess that was kind of the point, Jazz fans were always kind of different like that. We were rabid and crazy and classless, but it was always to the other guys. Our guys were our guys, and even after they moved on we collectively seemed to kind of hold a special place for them.

I kind of sound like an old person talking about "the way it used to be", I know, but I still feel that way, and more and more I feel like I'm in the minority.

TheMagnus wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Outstanding article from SLCdunk, definitely worth a read...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/10/18/3524566/we-are-utah-jazz-the-jazz-are-special-and-different

I've had some of those same feelings. I think it's tough, especialy for the Millers and many fans who tend to wear their hearts on their sleaves, to have players show exactly zero loyalty and not take some of the things that happen personally. Still, I have had some of the same concerns about Jazz fans and management in regards to thier attitudes on both current and past players. With wholesale reactions ranging from flippant disregard for guys who have laid it on the line for the Jazz for years (see Paul Millsap, AK) to blatant classless douchebaggery (See Derrick Fisher, Carlos Boozer, and to a lesser extent D-Will), I find myself often dissapointed in our treatment of our recent past and present players. I feel like something has changed in Jazz Nation over the years, something that has made us less willing to just look at the guys on the team as OUR GUYS, and more likely to look at them as some kind of means to an end, an end that we may not ever reach, and I think that is a great shame.

It doesn't have to be that way, we as Jazz Nation don't have to return disloyalty for disloyalty, percieved or real. We can just accept them as our guys, we can treat them like we used to (once a Jazz man, always a Jazz man, is the way I remember it), and let the buisness of the NBA carry on its cynical way without us.

I don't know man. Jazz fans were spoiled by having Karl and John be so loyal to the team for almost 20 years. Me I don't get attached to any player the Jazz bring in, because I have seen guys bail to go to larger markets. Some of the young guys will stay long enough to make a name for themselves and be gone. FA only want to come here if they are way overpaid or don't have many options. NOBODY looks at the Jazz and say's that is a young very talented team that is on the rise I want to play there.

The one thing that does bother me is the way the Jazz have treated Sap, The guy has been loyal and busted his ass for the Jazz, They need to at least offer him a real contract and show him they want him to stay, If they let him walk the will regret it. I don't care about how much money they are going to have this next off season. It doesn't mean much because they are going to be bringing in any top FA guys no matter how much money they have to spend. Lock up your young guys now and show Milsap some respect. This ain't the Heat or Lakers, we can't buy a championship. We can build one with what we have now though.

I think the front office has been fairly good to Millsap. They matched his ridiculously front loaded deal when a lot of people (not me, but people) thought they overpaid, and this summer they have offered him all that they are allowed to under the current CBA, knowing that it was well under what he's worth and fully expecting it to be rejected, and made it known that they want him to stay, but that was literally all they could do.

I know a lot of Jazz fans really love Millsap, but much like AK, and Boozer, and Brewer... (should I go on?) I think most of them seriously undervalue him. That is probably normal for sports fans in general, we like to pick at weaknesses when success isn't flowing the way we expect and are always looking for the next shiny thing that will lead us to some imagined glory. But I guess that was kind of the point, Jazz fans were always kind of different like that. We were rabid and crazy and classless, but it was always to the other guys. Our guys were our guys, and even after they moved on we collectively seemed to kind of hold a special place for them.

I kind of sound like an old person talking about "the way it used to be", I know, but I still feel that way, and more and more I feel like I'm in the minority.

Yeah I can't remember a former player coming back and getting booed. I remember David Benoit, shandon anderson, Big T, Even Jeff Malone coming back and getting Standing ovations, But it's not like it never happened in the good ole days. Anyone remember the way Ostertag was treated by Jazz fans while he was here? It didn't help that you had our legend in Karl calling him a fat ass in the media. Jazz fans have always appriciated guys that bust their ass and leave it all on the court, and don't have much use for liars (Fisher) or selfish money chasers (Boozer).

The fanbase has changed a bit, not many of the young guys remember watching the Jazz struggle for a lot of years before Karl and John were here. For almost 2 decades the playoffs were an afterthought. We were always going to be in the playoffs, it was just a matter of how far we were going to go.

I'm not very smart on the CBA, but shouldn't the home team be able to offer Milsap more than anyone else? If not, it's up to Sap to prove his loyalty to the Jazz by taking a smaller contract to stay with the only team he has ever played for. I wouldn't blame him for taking more money and going elsewhere, This is probably gonna be his last "big" contract, But it will be interesting to see where his priorities lay, In grabbing the most money possible or finishing what he started and try to bring a title to SLC.

If he stays it will be awesome, but if he leaves we can use that money and bring in another piece to get us where we need to go. I want to see him finish his career with the Jazz, but I can understand if he moves on. The thing is most of the contending teams can't offer him a huge deal, because they are already in the tax threshold. So if he takes a bigger deal to go to a garbage team I would be kinda surprised, because it would be out of character for him. It might depend on how well the Jazz do this year and if he sees them being in the position to win a ring in the next 2-3 years.

[quote="Romoholic"]

TheMagnus wrote:

Yeah I can't remember a former player coming back and getting booed. I remember David Benoit, shandon anderson, Big T, Even Jeff Malone coming back and getting Standing ovations, But it's not like it never happened in the good ole days. Anyone remember the way Ostertag was treated by Jazz fans while he was here? It didn't help that you had our legend in Karl calling him a fat ass in the media. Jazz fans have always appriciated guys that bust their ass and leave it all on the court, and don't have much use for liars (Fisher) or selfish money chasers (Boozer).

The fanbase has changed a bit, not many of the young guys remember watching the Jazz struggle for a lot of years before Karl and John were here. For almost 2 decades the playoffs were an afterthought. We were always going to be in the playoffs, it was just a matter of how far we were going to go.

I'm not very smart on the CBA, but shouldn't the home team be able to offer Milsap more than anyone else? If not, it's up to Sap to prove his loyalty to the Jazz by taking a smaller contract to stay with the only team he has ever played for. I wouldn't blame him for taking more money and going elsewhere, This is probably gonna be his last "big" contract, But it will be interesting to see where his priorities lay, In grabbing the most money possible or finishing what he started and try to bring a title to SLC.

If he stays it will be awesome, but if he leaves we can use that money and bring in another piece to get us where we need to go. I want to see him finish his career with the Jazz, but I can understand if he moves on. The thing is most of the contending teams can't offer him a huge deal, because they are already in the tax threshold. So if he takes a bigger deal to go to a garbage team I would be kinda surprised, because it would be out of character for him. It might depend on how well the Jazz do this year and if he sees them being in the position to win a ring in the next 2-3 years.

Under the new CBA it makes it easier to extend guys coming of a rookie contract, but it actually makes it tougher to extend veterans coming off of their current contracts because it limits the size of that contract to 4 years total and 7% annual raises,meaning you can basically only add 3 years to their current contract with minimal raises. The Jazz made him a "max" offer under the rules of the CBA, which basically amounted to a contract worth 32 million over 4 years (including this year), which is probably $5-10 Million less than he could have got on the open market this summer. It's kind of stupid, because if you let the same player become a free agent then the home team does have the advantage you talk about, because they aren't limited by the salary cap (in theory) and they can add a 5th year while other teams can only offer 4, but that is ONLY if they let him become a free agent. Millsap is too young to be giving big hometown discounts, that is for veterans on the downhill side of their career. Respect and loyalty run both ways, if the Jazz really want to keep him they will offer him a salary consistent with his value as soon as free agency begins next summer, and if he's being honest that he wants to stay he will accept it.

Like you said though, I really hope he stays. I think he's a good fit with Kanter and Favors, and at market value (~10 mil/year) he will provide good value without seriously limiting the Jazz ability to resign the young guys.

I think millsap has been given more from the jazz than anybody! Kid may have never made it if not for the jazz, 47th pick is low but look at Tom brady/ 199. got to give New England credit for using their last pick on a kid with no arm cant run! Make it hard to not like the millsaps of the world. Hope Paul stays and show love back to the team that gave him a chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNc2CkiFZF4

Love this story and needed to share it.

[quote="TheMagnus"]

Romoholic wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Yeah I can't remember a former player coming back and getting booed. I remember David Benoit, shandon anderson, Big T, Even Jeff Malone coming back and getting Standing ovations, But it's not like it never happened in the good ole days. Anyone remember the way Ostertag was treated by Jazz fans while he was here? It didn't help that you had our legend in Karl calling him a fat ass in the media. Jazz fans have always appriciated guys that bust their ass and leave it all on the court, and don't have much use for liars (Fisher) or selfish money chasers (Boozer).

The fanbase has changed a bit, not many of the young guys remember watching the Jazz struggle for a lot of years before Karl and John were here. For almost 2 decades the playoffs were an afterthought. We were always going to be in the playoffs, it was just a matter of how far we were going to go.

I'm not very smart on the CBA, but shouldn't the home team be able to offer Milsap more than anyone else? If not, it's up to Sap to prove his loyalty to the Jazz by taking a smaller contract to stay with the only team he has ever played for. I wouldn't blame him for taking more money and going elsewhere, This is probably gonna be his last "big" contract, But it will be interesting to see where his priorities lay, In grabbing the most money possible or finishing what he started and try to bring a title to SLC.

If he stays it will be awesome, but if he leaves we can use that money and bring in another piece to get us where we need to go. I want to see him finish his career with the Jazz, but I can understand if he moves on. The thing is most of the contending teams can't offer him a huge deal, because they are already in the tax threshold. So if he takes a bigger deal to go to a garbage team I would be kinda surprised, because it would be out of character for him. It might depend on how well the Jazz do this year and if he sees them being in the position to win a ring in the next 2-3 years.

Under the new CBA it makes it easier to extend guys coming of a rookie contract, but it actually makes it tougher to extend veterans coming off of their current contracts because it limits the size of that contract to 4 years total and 7% annual raises,meaning you can basically only add 3 years to their current contract with minimal raises. The Jazz made him a "max" offer under the rules of the CBA, which basically amounted to a contract worth 32 million over 4 years (including this year), which is probably $5-10 Million less than he could have got on the open market this summer. It's kind of stupid, because if you let the same player become a free agent then the home team does have the advantage you talk about, because they aren't limited by the salary cap (in theory) and they can add a 5th year while other teams can only offer 4, but that is ONLY if they let him become a free agent. Millsap is too young to be giving big hometown discounts, that is for veterans on the downhill side of their career. Respect and loyalty run both ways, if the Jazz really want to keep him they will offer him a salary consistent with his value as soon as free agency begins next summer, and if he's being honest that he wants to stay he will accept it.

Like you said though, I really hope he stays. I think he's a good fit with Kanter and Favors, and at market value (~10 mil/year) he will provide good value without seriously limiting the Jazz ability to resign the young guys.

Thanks I wasn't sure how the CBA worked in respect to signing your own guys. With that being the case, I think if falls even more on the Jazz to decide what they want to do. They will be able to Keep Milsap if they want him. I think he would prefer to stay with the Jazz if he has the chance to. I think as long as they don't low ball him he will return. The one thing they can't do though is tell him to go out and get contract offers like they did with Wes. There is probably a few teams out there that would offer up a stupid contract and way over pay him.

If it were my decision to make (think God it's not) I would probably look to move Al and keep Milsap. I think he is going to be a better compliment to Favors and Enes.

I think the Millman's management team needs to keep as many "outs" as possible while maintaining Paul as a major part of Jazz success.

If the Jazz can prove they are legitimate Championship challengers without a superstar on their roster, Paul could easily justify staying with the Jazz (and accepting less money than his market value).

If the Jazz feel they need a superstar (or two) to seriously compete for a championship, it would take major restructuring to keep Paul in Utah. Paul isn't a superstar, but he is an incredibly important part of the limited success the Jazz have had while he's been here. Paul's success in Utah, and his value to the Jazz, are ultimately tied to the team's overall performance against the rest of the league (that may seem like it applies to every NBA player, but, I don't think it's that simple). For Paul to be a longer-term value to the Jazz, other players need to step up and make the Jazz a serious Championship caliber team.

The easy answer for Paul would be to bail out of the Jazz strategy. The most wonderful possibility would be for the Jazz to gel with all our non-elite players into an unstoppable force (and that is possible!) and Paul could be a part of it.

Jazz fans need to put things in perspective, it's a business to the team and a game to the fans.
If you don't like a player thats fine, but I heard people treat Boozer like he stole something from them, they said horrible things about AK, D Will moved on for business reasons and bad things were said about him too.
Jazz fans need to show a lot more class, there are times I'm ashamed for some of the things they do. The radio people in this market are two bit (not that they are horrible people but just not very good at their jobs, well most of them anyway) anybody that could badmouth Ronnie Price, or Kyle Korver are just plain dumb. If you don't like their game then that's ok, but don't act like they got up in the morning thinking they would somehow single you out make you life miserable, grow up.
The other thing is the way some fans act at the ESA. You bought a ticket and you can boo, and you can fart at your Grandma's house if you want, but maybe you can also have a little class and instead, try it sometime

rorybreaker wrote:

Jazz fans need to put things in perspective, it's a business to the team and a game to the fans.
If you don't like a player thats fine, but I heard people treat Boozer like he stole something from them, they said horrible things about AK, D Will moved on for business reasons and bad things were said about him too.
Jazz fans need to show a lot more class, there are times I'm ashamed for some of the things they do. The radio people in this market are two bit (not that they are horrible people but just not very good at their jobs, well most of them anyway) anybody that could badmouth Ronnie Price, or Kyle Korver are just plain dumb. If you don't like their game then that's ok, but don't act like they got up in the morning thinking they would somehow single you out make you life miserable, grow up.
The other thing is the way some fans act at the ESA. You bought a ticket and you can boo, and you can fart at your Grandma's house if you want, but maybe you can also have a little class and instead, try it sometime

Don't agree with you on Boozer. He is a gutless, heartless player. He deserved all the boo's he got here. The bashing of AK was as stupid as it gets though. The issue people had/ have with Deron is he knows the deal, Utah is a small market team and can't risk losing a player of his caliber without compensation. He forced the Jazz to trade him, without actually making any trade demands. He also tended to make players better, but only if he liked them. He froze AK out on more than one occasion. We all remember the shit he gave Gordo. I haven't heard that many people say to much stuff bad about Deron though.

Romoholic wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Jazz fans need to put things in perspective, it's a business to the team and a game to the fans.
If you don't like a player thats fine, but I heard people treat Boozer like he stole something from them, they said horrible things about AK, D Will moved on for business reasons and bad things were said about him too.
Jazz fans need to show a lot more class, there are times I'm ashamed for some of the things they do. The radio people in this market are two bit (not that they are horrible people but just not very good at their jobs, well most of them anyway) anybody that could badmouth Ronnie Price, or Kyle Korver are just plain dumb. If you don't like their game then that's ok, but don't act like they got up in the morning thinking they would somehow single you out make you life miserable, grow up.
The other thing is the way some fans act at the ESA. You bought a ticket and you can boo, and you can fart at your Grandma's house if you want, but maybe you can also have a little class and instead, try it sometime

Don't agree with you on Boozer. He is a gutless, heartless player. He deserved all the boo's he got here. The bashing of AK was as stupid as it gets though. The issue people had/ have with Deron is he knows the deal, Utah is a small market team and can't risk losing a player of his caliber without compensation. He forced the Jazz to trade him, without actually making any trade demands. He also tended to make players better, but only if he liked them. He froze AK out on more than one occasion. We all remember the shit he gave Gordo. I haven't heard that many people say to much stuff bad about Deron though.

D Will is gone as much crap as he put some people through everybody sure loved him when he helped win a game booing him when he's gone is pretty hypocritical, people need to let it go. When Brewer, Matthews, Maynor, Koufas, any of those guys come back to town I show them respect, for anybody to go after a guy like Matthews for doing whats best for him is weak.

rorybreaker wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

Jazz fans need to put things in perspective, it's a business to the team and a game to the fans.
If you don't like a player thats fine, but I heard people treat Boozer like he stole something from them, they said horrible things about AK, D Will moved on for business reasons and bad things were said about him too.
Jazz fans need to show a lot more class, there are times I'm ashamed for some of the things they do. The radio people in this market are two bit (not that they are horrible people but just not very good at their jobs, well most of them anyway) anybody that could badmouth Ronnie Price, or Kyle Korver are just plain dumb. If you don't like their game then that's ok, but don't act like they got up in the morning thinking they would somehow single you out make you life miserable, grow up.
The other thing is the way some fans act at the ESA. You bought a ticket and you can boo, and you can fart at your Grandma's house if you want, but maybe you can also have a little class and instead, try it sometime

Don't agree with you on Boozer. He is a gutless, heartless player. He deserved all the boo's he got here. The bashing of AK was as stupid as it gets though. The issue people had/ have with Deron is he knows the deal, Utah is a small market team and can't risk losing a player of his caliber without compensation. He forced the Jazz to trade him, without actually making any trade demands. He also tended to make players better, but only if he liked them. He froze AK out on more than one occasion. We all remember the shit he gave Gordo. I haven't heard that many people say to much stuff bad about Deron though.

D Will is gone as much crap as he put some people through everybody sure loved him when he helped win a game booing him when he's gone is pretty hypocritical, people need to let it go. When Brewer, Matthews, Maynor, Koufas, any of those guys come back to town I show them respect, for anybody to go after a guy like Matthews for doing whats best for him is weak.

Those guys would've still been here had the jazz wanted but when it came to Bell he never gave the jazz any chance to match the suns. Wes was ours to lose but the blazers just forked over some mad coin and was just a little more then the jazz could bite off. Never boo any of them but Bell was the one i would've IF i was that way. I believe it shows zero class and would never stup that low. Now players never a jazz man nor ever be? Hell yes!