Jazz Lakers 11/7

Nice to see Burks finally getting some burn and looking good, Kanter looking pretty good to.

LA is in serious trouble this year. They have NO bench, and they have vets that need to rest, just a bad deal.

TheMagnus wrote:

Nice to see Burks finally getting some burn and looking good, Kanter looking pretty good to.

LA is in serious trouble this year. They have NO bench, and they have vets that need to rest, just a bad deal.

I'm digging the D foye is playing on Kobe.

Funny when Favors and Kanter go out the Lakers start coming back.

Romoholic wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Nice to see Burks finally getting some burn and looking good, Kanter looking pretty good to.

LA is in serious trouble this year. They have NO bench, and they have vets that need to rest, just a bad deal.

I'm digging the D foye is playing on Kobe.

Funny when Favors and Kanter go out the Lakers start coming back.

Notice that also corresponded with Kobe and World Peace coming back in the game. That Lakers bench really is awful.

Jazz are fouling way way too much again. They gotta stop that crap, they could actually be a pretty good defensive team if they stopped fouling so much.

Mo Williams just embarrassing Steve Blake.

Jefferson playing nice D on Howard, been called for two bogus fouls that should have been blocks.

Great all around game by big Al in this one.

Foye sure has been a great pickup hasn't he? He's everything we hoped Raja Bell would be but wasn't when we brought him back.

TheMagnus wrote:

Great all around game by big Al in this one.

Foye sure has been a great pickup hasn't he? He's everything we hoped Raja Bell would be but wasn't when we brought him back.

Yeah and that was the off season move most people weren't even talking about. If Hayward and Marvin could get it going on a consistent basis, we could be in business.

Pretty funny that Howard was supposed to come in and take pressure off Kobe, but in the 4th he was standing around watching the douche like ever other laker. What does that say about Kobe, when a guy that carried the Magic for a lot of years, is a bystander with the game on the line. Everyone knew Kobe wasn't going to pass the ball for shit late in the game!

Also Mo isn't Deron williams by any means, but he is playing like the PG Devin Harris was supposed to be for us. I'm way impressed with Mo so far this season!

Romoholic wrote:

Yeah and that was the off season move most people weren't even talking about. If Hayward and Marvin could get it going on a consistent basis, we could be in business.

Also Mo isn't Deron williams by any means, but he is playing like the PG Devin Harris was supposed to be for us. I'm way impressed with Mo so far this season!

I had the same thought with respect to Jazz play in the first week of the season -- if Hay and Marvin can show up consistently, matching M0's ability to do that, the team is everything I expected in the pre-season build-up. Its early for sure but I'm a little concerned about Hay's developing pattern of inconsistency with respect to his shooting touch. Seems like he is all on or off in multiple game stretches. To his credit he does still hustle and give it his all even when his shot isn't falling, but the word "streaky" is coming to mind, not what we want to see out of our starting 2. I have less concern for Marvin in that respect; he is an experienced veteran with a proven game and track record and I expect he will settle into being the consistent 3 we need.

And as for Mo - what is not to love? His grit is special and honestly, he is at the top of his game right now and seems damn happy to be back in Utah.

Forgot to give a nod to the young bigs Favors and Kanter who looked really good in the minutes they had. Not quite sure what the secret sauce is but at times that combo can just chew up the opposing bigs and other times just kinda hold their ground or get outplayed. Still figuring out their game?

Mo and Foye are the kind of guards the Jazz have been lacking since John and Jeff's times. They will have off nights, but they will win many games for you, be it because they explode and take it over, or just because rival's perimeter D have to stay honest with them.

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Yeah and that was the off season move most people weren't even talking about. If Hayward and Marvin could get it going on a consistent basis, we could be in business.

Also Mo isn't Deron williams by any means, but he is playing like the PG Devin Harris was supposed to be for us. I'm way impressed with Mo so far this season!

I had the same thought with respect to Jazz play in the first week of the season -- if Hay and Marvin can show up consistently, matching M0's ability to do that, the team is everything I expected in the pre-season build-up. Its early for sure but I'm a little concerned about Hay's developing pattern of inconsistency with respect to his shooting touch. Seems like he is all on or off in multiple game stretches. To his credit he does still hustle and give it his all even when his shot isn't falling, but the word "streaky" is coming to mind, not what we want to see out of our starting 2. I have less concern for Marvin in that respect; he is an experienced veteran with a proven game and track record and I expect he will settle into being the consistent 3 we need.

And as for Mo - what is not to love? His grit is special and honestly, he is at the top of his game right now and seems damn happy to be back in Utah.

The thing is Hayward tends to defer to his teammates too much. At some point he is just going to have to learn to take over a game. He has the ability to do it, he just needs to take charge. We have seen how dominant he can be if he does this.

I'm actually kinda worried about him, At this point in his career he should already know how and when to take over. It seems like every year he ends great and we all think, this next season is going to be the breakthrough, then he starts the season just like he did the last.

Romoholic wrote:

The thing is Hayward tends to defer to his teammates too much. At some point he is just going to have to learn to take over a game. He has the ability to do it, he just needs to take charge. We have seen how dominant he can be if he does this.

I'm actually kinda worried about him, At this point in his career he should already know how and when to take over. It seems like every year he ends great and we all think, this next season is going to be the breakthrough, then he starts the season just like he did the last.

That might be the way he is his whole career, as a guy who really cares about team play, I think he feels it is important for him to find his role on his team before he really asserts himself in that role. He's done that every year, but every year he does it a little quicker, and gets a little better before he's done. I think that pattern will hold this year, he's already looking much more assertive and confident, but at the same time seeming to be holding back, which I think says more about his potential than anything.

While players who are going to "break out" often do it in their 3rd year, I would dissagree strongly with the notion that they should also have learned "how and when to take over" effectively by that point. I would argue that is one of the hardest skills to really learn, and that it takes at least 5 years before a player really starts to understand it, if they are even capable of it.

A couple facts to soothe everybody's troubled minds...

-He's still only 22.

-Every, and I mean litterally EVERY, player that has the ability to score form the perimeter and does so at any reasonable rate is "streaky". The things that separate the good/usefull ones from the not-so-much ones is that they 1) draw fouls and shoot free throws, and 2) play D regardless of whether it's falling or not, and Hayward does both of those things.

TheMagnus wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

The thing is Hayward tends to defer to his teammates too much. At some point he is just going to have to learn to take over a game. He has the ability to do it, he just needs to take charge. We have seen how dominant he can be if he does this.

I'm actually kinda worried about him, At this point in his career he should already know how and when to take over. It seems like every year he ends great and we all think, this next season is going to be the breakthrough, then he starts the season just like he did the last.

That might be the way he is his whole career, as a guy who really cares about team play, I think he feels it is important for him to find his role on his team before he really asserts himself in that role. He's done that every year, but every year he does it a little quicker, and gets a little better before he's done. I think that pattern will hold this year, he's already looking much more assertive and confident, but at the same time seeming to be holding back, which I think says more about his potential than anything.

While players who are going to "break out" often do it in their 3rd year, I would dissagree strongly with the notion that they should also have learned "how and when to take over" effectively by that point. I would argue that is one of the hardest skills to really learn, and that it takes at least 5 years before a player really starts to understand it, if they are even capable of it.

A couple facts to soothe everybody's troubled minds...

-He's still only 22.

-Every, and I mean litterally EVERY, player that has the ability to score form the perimeter and does so at any reasonable rate is "streaky". The things that separate the good/usefull ones from the not-so-much ones is that they 1) draw fouls and shoot free throws, and 2) play D regardless of whether it's falling or not, and Hayward does both of those things.

He doesn't need to be out there shooting 3s. Every once in a while, but he does too many other thing very well. He really should be able to get to the line 4-5 times a game. He still makes too many stupid plays that are the result of lack of focus.

At what point do you think is a reasonable time for him to figure it out? With the amount of playing time he has gotten over the last two seasons I think he should be a lot further along than he is. Team ball is great, but he defers to lesser players on the team far too often.

I'm not hating on Gordo as him and Kanter are my fav two players right now, but I think he could do more on offense and really put the Jazz in a stronger position in the west. He does a lot of things really well, but we NEED him to average around 15 ppg. At this point in his career it's well within his ability to do that.

Romoholic wrote:

He doesn't need to be out there shooting 3s. Every once in a while, but he does too many other thing very well. He really should be able to get to the line 4-5 times a game. He still makes too many stupid plays that are the result of lack of focus.

At what point do you think is a reasonable time for him to figure it out? With the amount of playing time he has gotten over the last two seasons I think he should be a lot further along than he is. Team ball is great, but he defers to lesser players on the team far too often.

I'm not hating on Gordo as him and Kanter are my fav two players right now, but I think he could do more on offense and really put the Jazz in a stronger position in the west. He does a lot of things really well, but we NEED him to average around 15 ppg. At this point in his career it's well within his ability to do that.

Oh, I absolutely agree, and I think these are fair questions to ask.

First off, I'd point out that before last nights game he was averaging 15 pts a game, and I'm pretty sure that, given the current trend in minutes and usage, before the season's over he'll be closer to 18 than 13 where he is now.

Secondly, I'm not sure he ever will "figure it out" the way you (or rather we) are saying. I think that was/is probably a lot of the reason Marvin Williams is where he is today, he has/had similar abilities to Hayward, but he just never developed that killer instinct to take his overall game to the next level (or maybe was never allowed to develop it). Is that necessarily a bad thing? depends. If he truly is an elite player, then developing that instinct would put his team on the next level, but if he's not then having that instinct wouldn't really help us all that much, because he won't be that much more effective than anybody else on the team, and it would be better if he just continued to play a well rounded/team oriented role. I think that is why people are so high on Burks, unlike Hayward, he seems to natually have that instinct, the question for him is whether or not he's capable of being elite.

But setting that aside, if you look at the past and present it is pretty clear that this one of the more difficult things to do properly. I mean, tons of guys come into the NBA with the natural instinct to WANT to take over games, but it takes them a substantial amount of time to learn how to translate that desire into actual success on the court. The young guys from the Thunder are the most immediate example I could use, I would argue that Durrant really didn't figure it out until last year, his 5th season, and he still struggles with it because of Westbrook, who wants to do it but is drawing major criticims because he still hasn't really figured it out (this is his 5th season). Harden is now going to get his turn with the Rockets, and he started with a great flourish, but I'd predict that it will be into next season (this is his 4th season) before he really starts to click in his role as "the man" in a way that translates into success on the court, if it happens at all (I think it will be a another T-Mac era in Houston).

Obviously, there are a number of outside factors, but when you look at examples past and present the pattern is reamarkably consistent, great players really don't translate their dominance directly into winning (which is what I call "figuring it out") until their 5th or 6th year in the league.

A lot of good points there brother. I don't know if maybe we had too high of expectations for Gordo or not, But at this point he is looking to be a good NBA role player, a starter for sure, but never an all star. That's fine if that's what he turns out to be. Every team needs a few players like that, but it then puts more pressure on guys like Favors and Kanter to develop into dominate bigs. As everyone knows bigs take the longest to reach their full potential.

My issue is I have seen Hayward take over games and just flat out will the team to wins. I would like to see more of that. He is never going to be Kobe or Jordan or whoever, and He knows that, but he does have the talent to be more than just a role player for the Jazz.

I'm kinda thinking he isn't getting the right coaching. Just a thought, but are the Jazz coaches really doing that well preparing the young guys to be the future of this team? Because if not there is going to be a lot of growing pains next season, when we are without Al or Milsap or both.

It's early in the season and I'm going to stick by my prediction that Gordo averages 18 ppg this season.

Per Mags, I agree its a little early to be too concerned with Hay, I was just pointing out that maybe we set our expectations too high too early. If he gets 18ppg and keeps his end-to-end 22-year old hustle going we have a sub-Allstar on our hands. In the interview with Foye last night he noted that he is in his 7th year in the league and knows when to go all aggressive and light it up. Again per Mags, it is an acquired skill for the sub-elite players. All good.