What is wrong with the Jazz?

People keep saying the Lakers need more time to jell but nobody thinks the jazz need time to grow and jell together? Not fair as jazz fans to think this is the best these guys have is right now. In time we'll see a coming together and the young guys Enes Burks Favors Flash are still growing and learning how to play at this level. I do not like the way Ty is working Burks into the games.If he aint gonna give Burks any quality time we should be looking at trading for a guy we can develop into a starter down the road.
Just with what little time he had in the last game made me think Ty has taken burks back two years in growth.I hate the way jazz coaches have not let these guys max out all there skills out on the floor.Like Enes you can tell that guy has a outside shot last year be was afraid to pass or shoot outside of three feet from the rim. Needs to encourage more from each guy. To much of Jerry sloan in Ty for some of these guy to find max level of play. Not sure if anyone is following what i'm thinking?

Richardale wrote:

People keep saying the Lakers need more time to jell but nobody thinks the jazz need time to grow and jell together? Not fair as jazz fans to think this is the best these guys have is right now. In time we'll see a coming together and the young guys Enes Burks Favors Flash are still growing and learning how to play at this level. I do not like the way Ty is working Burks into the games.If he aint gonna give Burks any quality time we should be looking at trading for a guy we can develop into a starter down the road.
Just with what little time he had in the last game made me think Ty has taken burks back two years in growth.I hate the way jazz coaches have not let these guys max out all there skills out on the floor.Like Enes you can tell that guy has a outside shot last year be was afraid to pass or shoot outside of three feet from the rim. Needs to encourage more from each guy. To much of Jerry sloan in Ty for some of these guy to find max level of play. Not sure if anyone is following what i'm thinking?

I follow what u are thinking.

I agree with what you're saying and I think Evans is a very interesting player.

I think we're all looking for improvement from getting swept by the Spurs and I can't see it this yr. The outside shooting is nice but I'm missing the penetration from Harris and Burks. Flash seems to be a better SF but I like Sap there so Favors can develop. Foye is an upgrade over Bell but he doesn't go to the rack.
I'm more inclined to keep Millsap over Jefferson since he can draw fouls and should be cheaper but who's to say Sap won't take a five yr 40 million deal making 8 million a yr and Jefferson also stays with a five yr 50 million contract??
It's plausible both will stay since , if I'm not mistaken, other teams can only offer them 4 yr deals.... isn't that what the new CBA was all about? Keeping players with an extra yr incentive? Even if the hard cap was rejected at least I think other teams would double-think paying those two the same for four yrs and yes, it's only a small raise for Sap and big cut per yr for Jefferson but I can't see a team offering Jefferson 60 million for four yrs.

Correct me if my understanding is wrong about the new CBA or if both players, if they become freeagents, can get five yr deals from other teams.

What I'm getting at is the core bigs- Al, Millsap, and Favors can get the job done. Hayward is fearless and attacks the rim nd should be looked at as long-term as well. MO is decent but we need an upgrade over Tinsley. Maybe getting Evans and/or biding our time for Bledsoe when CP3 gets paid and the clips can't afford to keep Bledsoe, or another player like him, is the game-plan... whomever started the thread praising Bledsoe was correct IMO about him being an above-average PG.
The Jazz just need a few tinkers for us to look at a series against an elite team as doable. Evans has the skills and meshes well with our current roster to make it happen. Bledsoe may be there as well if given some minutes.

Last night was a prime example of what I was talking about with Gordo. Looks great one night and looks like garbage the next. He has to be more consistent. Not like he was the only one though. Seems like we have no chance to win with Mo out.

Richardale wrote:

People keep saying the Lakers need more time to jell but nobody thinks the jazz need time to grow and jell together? Not fair as jazz fans to think this is the best these guys have is right now. In time we'll see a coming together and the young guys Enes Burks Favors Flash are still growing and learning how to play at this level. I do not like the way Ty is working Burks into the games.If he aint gonna give Burks any quality time we should be looking at trading for a guy we can develop into a starter down the road.
Just with what little time he had in the last game made me think Ty has taken burks back two years in growth.I hate the way jazz coaches have not let these guys max out all there skills out on the floor.Like Enes you can tell that guy has a outside shot last year be was afraid to pass or shoot outside of three feet from the rim. Needs to encourage more from each guy. To much of Jerry sloan in Ty for some of these guy to find max level of play. Not sure if anyone is following what i'm thinking?

Following? I think I had to wait for you on that spot for couple of weeks. Welcpme to party! Cola is on the table.

Romoholic wrote:

Last night was a prime example of what I was talking about with Gordo. Looks great one night and looks like garbage the next. He has to be more consistent. Not like he was the only one though. Seems like we have no chance to win with Mo out.

Kinda was true for everybody but Foye and Tinsley wasn't it. The bigs all played like crap. Wonder if there isn['t some sickness or something going through the locker room, effort in both of those games seemed pretty lackluster.

Sad to say, the most exciting parts of the games for me are when Demarre Carroll is playing. I like watching him to see what is going to happen next as a result of his all out hustle!

On the negative, we've only got one win on the road so far, and it took us triple overtime to get it!

TheMagnus wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Last night was a prime example of what I was talking about with Gordo. Looks great one night and looks like garbage the next. He has to be more consistent. Not like he was the only one though. Seems like we have no chance to win with Mo out.

Kinda was true for everybody but Foye and Tinsley wasn't it. The bigs all played like crap. Wonder if there isn['t some sickness or something going through the locker room, effort in both of those games seemed pretty lackluster.

Yeah and that's the problem in a nutshell with this team. NOBODY shows any consistency.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

Sad to say, the most exciting parts of the games for me are when Demarre Carroll is playing. I like watching him to see what is going to happen next as a result of his all out hustle!

On the negative, we've only got one win on the road so far, and it took us triple overtime to get it!

actually two wins on the road, but got your point though. Although a lot of the loses we have on the road have been really close games. The Jazz are close to being a really good team, but aren't there yet.

Romoholic wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Last night was a prime example of what I was talking about with Gordo. Looks great one night and looks like garbage the next. He has to be more consistent. Not like he was the only one though. Seems like we have no chance to win with Mo out.

Kinda was true for everybody but Foye and Tinsley wasn't it. The bigs all played like crap. Wonder if there isn['t some sickness or something going through the locker room, effort in both of those games seemed pretty lackluster.

Yeah and that's the problem in a nutshell with this team. NOBODY shows any consistency.

I've tried to give it some time, and know that he is still early in his career, BUT ...... when the entire team is inconsistant, lacks overall energy, and appears to run less than a dozen effective offenseive sets in an entire game .... I blame the coach.

No way that EVERY player on the team can appear lost, unless the coach is failing. I think it's about time that management light a fire under Ty's butt. I like that the Jazz, historically, give their coach a real chance to succeed, but things aren't getting any better & we are about 1/5 of the way through the season now. I don't want to have my only happiness to come from the fact that the team is going to get another lottery pick.

zero24gravity wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Last night was a prime example of what I was talking about with Gordo. Looks great one night and looks like garbage the next. He has to be more consistent. Not like he was the only one though. Seems like we have no chance to win with Mo out.

Kinda was true for everybody but Foye and Tinsley wasn't it. The bigs all played like crap. Wonder if there isn['t some sickness or something going through the locker room, effort in both of those games seemed pretty lackluster.

Yeah and that's the problem in a nutshell with this team. NOBODY shows any consistency.

I've tried to give it some time, and know that he is still early in his career, BUT ...... when the entire team is inconsistant, lacks overall energy, and appears to run less than a dozen effective offenseive sets in an entire game .... I blame the coach.

No way that EVERY player on the team can appear lost, unless the coach is failing. I think it's about time that management light a fire under Ty's butt. I like that the Jazz, historically, give their coach a real chance to succeed, but things aren't getting any better & we are about 1/5 of the way through the season now. I don't want to have my only happiness to come from the fact that the team is going to get another lottery pick.

I'm kinda with you there. I freaking hate blaming things on coaches so soon into there tenure with a team, and I really thought Corbin would catch on eventually. However it doesn't seem like he is making any improvement in his coaching. His rotation patterns aren't good, he doesn't seem to know how to get players on the court together that complement each other, and he isn't doing a good job of developing our young guys.

That in my mind is the most damaging thing, KOC worked very hard to get us these lottery picks and stock this team with great young talent. We have to have a coach that can get the very best out of them. All the lottery picks in the world don't make a bit of difference if they are't being coached up to there full potential.

Corbin's recipe most night: just kill the hot hand ... "because I'm trying different things, you know"
Hope he grows quickly

OK, hard to bitch when the Jazz pick up a W but that was far too close! What's wrong with the Jazz? Koufous outplayed Millsap!!!! What is up with Sap, anyway, he seems to disappear far to often lately. I was going to strangle Corbin for leaving Hayward in to chuck up bricks - certainly Marvin was having a better game before he sat out the most of the second half, as was Foye. What is up with GH putting up 3's with 20 seconds on the clock when that isn't his game? Corbin should have yanked him. In sum, the Jazz are barely beating other so-so teams at home and haven't figured out how to win on the road. Not very promising, I am fearful this is going to be a much more painful team to watch than I ever imagined. If they can't pick up a win on the next roady my guess is sparks are going to fly - its too easy to second guess Ty right now and when the players start doing it, look out. Jazz got lucky against Denver - thank god Big Al keeps showing up and carrying the team, Tinsley is having a re-birth, DC is DC and Favors is a factor 2 out of 3 nights. Otherwise, this team is an easy 5-10 right now.

MTJazz wrote:

OK, hard to bitch when the Jazz pick up a W but that was far too close! What's wrong with the Jazz? Koufous outplayed Millsap!!!! What is up with Sap, anyway, he seems to disappear far to often lately. I was going to strangle Corbin for leaving Hayward in to chuck up bricks - certainly Marvin was having a better game before he sat out the most of the second half, as was Foye. What is up with GH putting up 3's with 20 seconds on the clock when that isn't his game? Corbin should have yanked him. In sum, the Jazz are barely beating other so-so teams at home and haven't figured out how to win on the road. Not very promising, I am fearful this is going to be a much more painful team to watch than I ever imagined. If they can't pick up a win on the next roady my guess is sparks are going to fly - its too easy to second guess Ty right now and when the players start doing it, look out. Jazz got lucky against Denver - thank god Big Al keeps showing up and carrying the team, Tinsley is having a re-birth, DC is DC and Favors is a factor 2 out of 3 nights. Otherwise, this team is an easy 5-10 right now.

Did I write this? Cause I feel the same way, except I don't think that Al keeps showing up & carrying anything. He has a few good nights on offense, but the majority of nights he's not "on" either, plus his D is just B-A-D. (I have liked his rebounding a lot though.)

Last 7 games:
.500 FG, 13 points
.357, 15 points
.526, 21 points
.333, 14 points
.571, 19 points
.467, 14 points
.667, 28 points

He's on a serious, "show up every other game" path.

I know some of us may have got tired of hearing Sloan harp on this for many years, but he always got mad when the Jazz failed to establish the inside game early and instead settled for outside jump shots. Seems to me that ^ has been our problem lately. Boler said Jefferson didn't even touch the ball for the first four minutes of the game last night. No wonder Jefferson "starts slow". Another time during the game, Harpring pointed out a play where Millsap was underneath the basket with a clear view to receive an easy entry pass; had his defender pinned behind him, yet Millsap didn't get the pass. They ran the replay on the broadcast and Millsap looked absolutely disgusted after he didn't get the pass. We need to get back to traditional inside/out Jazz basketball, and if we do, I think we will be just fine. JMO.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

I know some of us may have got tired of hearing Sloan harp on this for many years, but he always got mad when the Jazz failed to establish the inside game early and instead settled for outside jump shots. Seems to me that ^ has been our problem lately. Boler said Jefferson didn't even touch the ball for the first four minutes of the game last night. No wonder Jefferson "starts slow". Another time during the game, Harpring pointed out a play where Millsap was underneath the basket with a clear view to receive an easy entry pass; had his defender pinned behind him, yet Millsap didn't get the pass. They ran the replay on the broadcast and Millsap looked absolutely disgusted after he didn't get the pass. We need to get back to traditional inside/out Jazz basketball, and if we do, I think we will be just fine. JMO.

Couldn't agree more and has me wondering, MIGHTILY, why the hell the Jazz don't display an organized half-court inside-out O from the get go. Last night yet another great example of jacking outside jumpers without first looking for higher percentage shots. While not on Foye and Marvin, I think part of the jacking comes from them seeing themselves on the team as the "outside threat, with Mo, the quarterback, also in that mindset. They might be fine if they get effective in the half-court sets soon but I don't see Corbin flying off the bench yelling at player who just jacked early in the clock. Hayward is sadly also trying to be an outside shooter when his game is really better when he attacks. Like I said in another post, the Jazz could so easily be 5-10 right now its scary. Other teams will improve with roster cohesion and more games - not sure that alone will make the Jazz a respectable playoff team.

Quote :

"I also think that we may have all gotten a little too exited about the additions of Mo, Marvin and Foye." ~Romoholic

*raises hand*

Guilty as charged.

MY PRESEASON THINKING:
Marvin Williams would blossom as a multi-skilled, uber-athletic player for the Jazz. Partly because he'd finally get out from under the "Guy who we picked instead of Chris Paul" stigma and partly because the Jazz style would complement and enhance his skillset.

Mo Williams would improve from his "first chucker off the bench" role. Given a vote of confidence and an uncontested spot as starting PG he'd find hitherto hidden offense-running point guard skills...and really, he'd only have to be better at that than Devin Harris. How hard could THAT be?

Randy Foye would give us 3s galore (in his accustomed role as "first chucker off the bench"). As something we badly needed, and never got, last year, those contributions would be all plus.

Rugrats: Hayward would finally improve to the Ginobili-lite level we've seen hints of. Favors morphs into shotblocking, glass-eating BEAST, Kanter gets fit (!), continues to rebound and defend and loses the self-consciousness about taking his nice-looking mid-range jumper. Evans develops some actual basketball-playing ability besides the alley-oop game. INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT! The hidden aspect of team progress in the NBA.

Bench Buddies: Burks, DC, Watson, Tinsley all play with passion when deep depth is needed.

Overall? Unstoppable improvement, top 5 seed, right?

THE REALITY:
Ummm...as Denny Greene would say about Marvin Williams "He is who we thought he was!!" An unassertive, let-the-game-come-to-him...OR NOT kind of guy. Not consistent, not bad, but not a difference-maker.

Mo Williams has not found the transition to Franchise PG easy. Players flash open in the offense, come clear on the baseline, find themselves with a 10 inch mismatch...and the ball doesn't seem to find its way to them. Very Devin Harrisish. Though he does run the fast break better, I guess.

Foye? We know what Denny Greene would say about him, too.

Rugrats: Not as much improvement as I'd hoped. Or rather, the improvement has not been as dramatic as I'd hoped. OR...Corbin has not done much to facilitate said improvement. Hayward's inconsistent...and he might have Denny Greene saying "He isn't the shooter we hoped he was!!". Kanter probably needs game minutes more than anybody else. Favors isn't FORCING the refs to take him seriously and plays too passively at times.

Bench? DC continues to be a contributor, Burks may only ever be an All Star in the wishful-thinkingest corners of our imaginations, Evans can still alley-oop, etc, etc...not a dramatic improvement.

As for Al Jefferson...it ain't a bad shot if it goes in. It ain't a black hole if you get points. And he undeniably has this stupid, magical, head-scratching ability to throw in those little non-shots ("throws" or "chucks" if you prefer) from inside of 10 feet with a ridiculous rate of efficiency. Yeah, wish he was more active rebounding, quicker and more aware on defense, more perceptive on offense...yeah, sure. But he keeps making those damn shots. Whaddaya gonna do?

OVERALL?: Corbin has shown very little imagination. Our half-court game, outside of AJ's 10-pump, double-spin, one-handed throws-at-the-basket, is pretty much non-existent. We never, NEVER, have players move in such a way that it creates an open shot. Effort?? Confused, weak, inconsistent...sometimes we rebound, sometimes not; sometimes 3 players run on the break, sometimes only Hayward; sometimes we play inspired, aggressive 5-man defense...other times, we make Robin Lopez look like an All Star.

Yes, there's still time for the Jazz to "gell"...but safe to say, my insanely optimistic hopes have proven to be...ummm...insanely optimistic.

You know, it's kind of interesting, because even though it feels like this team is underperforming, they are currently the 6th place team in the west (only one game out of 4th), second in the division behind the Thunder, and two games over .500 in spite of the fact that they have only played 6 of their 16 games at home....

...so they are pretty much at or ahead of where most people were expecting them to be at this point, but at the same time they aren't.

Paradox?

TheMagnus wrote:

You know, it's kind of interesting, because even though it feels like this team is underperforming, they are currently the 6th place team in the west (only one game out of 4th), second in the division behind the Thunder, and two games over .500 in spite of the fact that they have only played 6 of their 16 games at home....

...so they are pretty much at or ahead of where most people were expecting them to be at this point, but at the same time they aren't.

Paradox?

Not at all (no pareadix). 100% home wins all over medicore teams ( Lakers whenethey lost to everybody) and 3 road win over EXACTLY the very bottom ones.+ Wizards, Raptors and NOH. Mostly with pitiful margin. That's translates into appr. 40% over the whole season. Or vice versa - 40% of wins when projected on current schedule will translate into current record. It' exactly like depleted Minny were 5-2 before they run in from diets of bottom dwellers into average teams.


Like I told recently: let's wait till home win over at least W60% team at home or over at least W35% team on the road. Then I will celebrate boisterously. Till then... it's a suspence! or sixpence?

vryadli wrote:

Not at all (no pareadix). 100% home wins all over medicore teams ( Lakers whenethey lost to everybody) and 3 road win over EXACTLY the very bottom ones.+ Wizards, Raptors and NOH. Mostly with pitiful margin. That's translates into appr. 40% over the whole season. Or vice versa - 40% of wins when projected on current schedule will translate into current record. It' exactly like depleted Minny were 5-2 before they run in from diets of bottom dwellers into average teams.


Like I told recently: let's wait till home win over at least W60% team at home or over at least W35% team on the road. Then I will celebrate boisterously. Till then... it's a suspence! or sixpence?

Well you gotta put that in perspective don't you? I mean they just beat Denver who was supposed to be better than them, their win against LA came between 3 double digit Laker Blowout WINS. I mean, the truth is that Jazz don't look good, but neither does anybody else outside of the elite teams.

Tonight was a great reminder of the huge difference between a contender and the Jazz. The Thunder are a freaking good team and you have to play good basketball on both ends to have a chance to beat them. But there are only really 6 good teams in the NBA right now, and the Jazz aren't one of them, but for all of their struggles they are as good right now as any other team outside of those 6.

TheMagnus wrote:

vryadli wrote:

Not at all (no pareadix). 100% home wins all over medicore teams ( Lakers whenethey lost to everybody) and 3 road win over EXACTLY the very bottom ones.+ Wizards, Raptors and NOH. Mostly with pitiful margin. That's translates into appr. 40% over the whole season. Or vice versa - 40% of wins when projected on current schedule will translate into current record. It' exactly like depleted Minny were 5-2 before they run in from diets of bottom dwellers into average teams.


Like I told recently: let's wait till home win over at least W60% team at home or over at least W35% team on the road. Then I will celebrate boisterously. Till then... it's a suspence! or sixpence?

Well you gotta put that in perspective don't you? I mean they just beat Denver who was supposed to be better than them, their win against LA came between 3 double digit Laker Blowout WINS. I mean, the truth is that Jazz don't look good, but neither does anybody else outside of the elite teams.

Tonight was a great reminder of the huge difference between a contender and the Jazz. The Thunder are a freaking good team and you have to play good basketball on both ends to have a chance to beat them. But there are only really 6 good teams in the NBA right now, and the Jazz aren't one of them, but for all of their struggles they are as good right now as any other team outside of those 6.

Yeah I was definitely expecting a lose tonight, but if it weren't for the refs the Jazz might have had a better chance. That no call on Westbrook against Watson, was one of the worst calls or lack there of I have seen all season. There were more than on of those kind of calls tonight.

Having said that, the Thunder are for sure a better team than the Jazz. The problem I had tonight was again with Coaching. Foye was lighting it up and single handed kept the Jazz in it. So what does Corbin do? Rides the completely ineffective Hayward to the end. Yeah I know Hayward does other things besides score, except he didn't tonight. He was horrible all the way around. I don't get it either. Corbin has shown that he will sit Milsap on the bench when he isn't playing well, yet he won't do the same with Hayward. I get that they wanted him in there on Durant, but KD abused Hayward all night. Maybe if Marvin would have been available Corbin would have gone to him. I don't know.

TheMagnus wrote:

--

You basically told that Dener is not elite team. So - win over them at home is eaxctly W40% range. When (if) they will beta them on the road - that will be clear sign plfyoff-tem quality.

That how I'm thinking : you beat averybody at home, lose all on the roa => W50%. Nest? more realistical scenario: beat at hom all but superelite. Lose on the road to all but crappiest and sruggling team. Still W50%. That is eaxactly current Jazz. They didn't lose must-win nor take jump-up matches.