GTS Utah @ Indiana 12/19/12

How many Jazz players score?

Pacers by 6

Nine

zero24gravity wrote:

Pacers by 6

Nine

Since I'm never right, I'll go with pacers by 5

8

jazz 4 nine players score

Pacers by 10, 10 players score.

Indiana will win by 5; 9 Jazzmen to score.

Pacers by 7.
9 players score.

Pacers +5; 10.

game just started hope it will count. Indiana by 7, 10 players score.

whew, what a whipping.

The Jazz Defense is now officially a catastrophe. I mean I know the offense was horrible in this one, but with the minor exception of the Nets game, defensively the Jazz have been HORRIBLE for pretty much the entire month of December. Their defensive efficiency is dropping like a stone to the bottom of the NBA and by the end of tonight will probably overtake the likes of Toronto and Phoenix in the race to bottom. Something has to change there.

TheMagnus wrote:

whew, what a whipping.

The Jazz Defense is now officially a catastrophe. I mean I know the offense was horrible in this one, but with the minor exception of the Nets game, defensively the Jazz have been HORRIBLE for pretty much the entire month of December. Their defensive efficiency is dropping like a stone to the bottom of the NBA and by the end of tonight will probably overtake the likes of Toronto and Phoenix in the race to bottom. Something has to change there.

Would you agree we have defensive players on the team, guys that want to play defense, and shotblockers? I would.
I would also say that our starting two guard is horrendous on D, and our starting 1, is below average. Along with our starting Center who can't guard a pick and roll etc, thats a terrible start.
I guess we just dont have an entire group that wants to play defense.
Or is it a scheme issue?
Hopefully, its not a motivation issue....that would be the worst.

Jazz lost by a lot (20 to be exact)
11 players scored.

Pathetic

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

Calgary Jazz wrote:

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

Hey Calgs, like I said in another post, wish the Jazz hadn't passed on Tony Parker either. It is and endless and pointless exercise to look at all the players not drafted by any team who "had a shot" and missed. George is a nice player, no doubt, but the Jazz didn't pick him. Atlanta picked Marvin instead of Deron, and now the Jazz have Marvin. Whatever. At issue tonight is the same - getting smoked by a so-so team on both ends of the floor. Jazz do not have a winning road mentality and that is not going to get them very far in the WC.

MTJazz wrote:

Jazz do not have a winning road mentality and that is not going to get them very far in the WC.

Jazz do not have superstar or anyone with that mentality or potential on this team. Bunch of role players will never lead you to finals. Detroit may qualify as exception in 2004 but they had reigning defensive player of the year and All-star B.Wallace who alone made their interior defense superior to any team they played.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

It must be a terrible thing to live your entire miserable life regretting "passing" on draft choices. The Jazz (and every other NBA team) has "passed" on dozens of great players in NBA drafts. You could make a list 100 names long of players that the Jazz (and every other NBA team) have missed on in the draft.

But why do that to yourself. Unless you want to be miserable.

thejazzkickazz wrote:

But why do that to yourself. Unless you want to be miserable.

DING DING DING DING DING!!! And we have a winner!!!

Not mention the fact that he is doing his best to make the rest of us miserable about getting a damn fine player in Gordon Hayward, just like he tried to do with Kanter.

But what good is crushing pessimism and 20/160 hindsight if you can't share it!!! Am I right?!?!?!

Mutangclan wrote:

Would you agree we have defensive players on the team, guys that want to play defense, and shotblockers? I would.
I would also say that our starting two guard is horrendous on D, and our starting 1, is below average. Along with our starting Center who can't guard a pick and roll etc, thats a terrible start.
I guess we just dont have an entire group that wants to play defense.
Or is it a scheme issue?
Hopefully, its not a motivation issue....that would be the worst.

Ya, I would agree with those things, and the assessment that the first unit is very bad defensively.

The other problem is that the best defenders, with the exception of Marvin, are all young guys, so they can't bear down on the rest of the team when they need a kick in the ass, and they still haven't learned all of the subtleties of good team D.

Here's some interesting stats for you.

There are 3 stats that I have been looking at to see what each player has been contributing to the team, seperate from what they are contributing as individuals, they are +/-, On/Off, and Own/Opp.

+/- is easy and you know what that is.

On/Off is correlated to +/- but more detailed, it measures and compares the teams efficiency and thier opponents efficiency when a player is on the court versus when he is off, and is calculated by the following... (TeamEffOn-TeamEffOff)-(OppEffOn-OppEffOff)=On/Off

Own/Opp compares a players individual PER against the combined PER of his opponents, giving a measure of whether a player is "outplaying" his opponent on any given night.

Here's what you find when you look at those 3...

1) There are only three players on the team that are negative in all 3 measures, Earl Watson, Mo Williams, and Randy Foye. And not only are they negative in all three, but they are the MOST negative in at least 2 of the 3.

2) There are only 4 players that are positive in all 3 measures, Jeremy Evans, Marvin Williams, Demarre Carroll, and Gordon Hayward. Carroll is a monster by these measures, being either 1 or 2 on the team in every measure. Marvin is the most interesting to me, because all of the other starters are horrible in the On/Off and +/-, and that makes some sense because these are team numbers, but somehow Marvin manages to rise above it. Jeremy Evans continues to contribute nothing but positive things on both ends every time he get on the court, it's been 3 years now, I wonder when people are going to start realizing that his strengths outweigh his limitations .

3) Jamaal Tinsley is a crazy outlier. In the individual Own/Opp measure Tinsley is the 3rd worst on the team, ahead of only Watson and Burks, but in the team based +/- and On/Off he is by far and away the best on the team. Many people have observed his impact on the Jazz team play when he is on the court, in spite of his individual struggles on both ends, and that bears out in these numbers. Another interesting number about Tinsley, the Jazz are 3-1 when he starts.

4) Favors, Millsap, and Jefferson are all winning their individual matchups (Own/Opp), but the team is negative with them out there. If you look a little deeper at the On/Off, the numbers confirm what we have been seeing. The team is significantly better defensively when Jefferson and Millsap are off the court, and significantly worse offensivfely when Favors is on the court. But here's the two things that surprised me (ok, only one of these things really surprised me), the team is not significantly better offensively with Jefferson on the court (1.3 better), and they are not significantly better defensively with Favors on the court (.8 better). while on the other hand they are massively better defensively with Jefferson off (5.2 better), and massively better offensively with Favors off the court (4.2 better). Millsap is significant on both ends, but his negative defensive contribution (6.2) outweighs his positive offense (4.3).


And asside form the numbers, did anybody else notice that the sudden jump in the way the Jazz offence moved the ball and got everybody involved corresponded directly to Big Al getting hurt? And that now with a few games of having him back the Jazz have reverted to the "throw it to the post and stand around" offense?

I know it doesn't seem to be the popular opinion around these parts, or in the world of NBA commentary, but if the Jazz don't get it together in the next month or so, the first guys I'd be looking to move are Randy Foye and Al Jefferson. Moving Foye would make more time for Burks and Carroll, and moving Jefferson would make more time for Kanter and the Jazz need to start playing Favors in the position he was meant to play, Center.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Jazz do not have a winning road mentality and that is not going to get them very far in the WC.

Jazz do not have superstar or anyone with that mentality or potential on this team. Bunch of role players will never lead you to finals. Detroit may qualify as exception in 2004 but they had reigning defensive player of the year and All-star B.Wallace who alone made their interior defense superior to any team they played.

With you on that. It would be nice to see a bunch of solid role players rise high, (like Memphis), but that involves special team cohesiveness and that intangible deal where you don't have 4 key guys inexplicably having a shitty night at the same time. Alas, that is the Jazz. "Off-nights" seem to be more contagious than swine flu with this crew. Without a super-star or two to call out there mates, much less put the ball in the damn hole and play some agro D, the ceiling is pretty low. I'm making a New Year's resolution to stop bitching about all of this and just sit back and see this as a case-study, hope I get pleasantly surprised by April. I really thought this team could have been special, not contender special, but rising the ladder.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

When paul was drafted they were given the grade F. Yes thats right F. so he was not even a good pick one behind our pick GH. Hind site is great thing.We need to go forward from here and try to make the best of what we have. not whine about what could've been.Live for tomarrow not yesterday?

Calgary Jazz wrote:

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

Anybody regret passing on Ed Davis???!!! Huh huh???? Anyone???? Calgary, you do right??? Huh????!!!!!! Anyone!!!

Mutangclan wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

Anybody regret passing on Ed Davis???!!! Huh huh???? Anyone???? Calgary, you do right??? Huh????!!!!!! Anyone!!!

It may not be such a screaming question if Davis was given Haywards minutes and freedom last year. He shows great potential and will be a double double player in the future. Lets see... first year Ed Davis had better stats then Hayward, second year Hayward was obviously superior, this year it is not yet that obvious as with Bargs out Ed Davis may have better season then Hayward at the end... and who knows what future holds? I would be perfectly fine with Ed Davis instead of Hayward - but that would have resulted in no D.Williams for Favors trade.
By the way Ed Davis has PER of 20.2... Hayward 14.9 this season.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

So nobody regrets passing on Paul George? I think Magnus will jump in with his advanced stats telling that they are the same players... but come on we saw the game!

Anybody regret passing on Ed Davis???!!! Huh huh???? Anyone???? Calgary, you do right??? Huh????!!!!!! Anyone!!!

It may not be such a screaming question if Davis was given Haywards minutes and freedom last year. He shows great potential and will be a double double player in the future. Lets see... first year Ed Davis had better stats then Hayward, second year Hayward was obviously superior, this year it is not yet that obvious as with Bargs out Ed Davis may have better season then Hayward at the end... and who knows what future holds? I would be perfectly fine with Ed Davis instead of Hayward - but that would have resulted in no D.Williams for Favors trade.
By the way Ed Davis has PER of 20.2... Hayward 14.9 this season.

As usual, you missed the point entirely.

On the other hand Calgary, I'm sure that your all time missed draft picks team you put together is a really tough team, probably Championship material!!!......THOSE IDIOT GMS!!!!