The Mystery of the Secret Tank Job

MTJazz wrote:

Yup. Ditto. Said that in the other thread but didn't bother to go into rotation failures.

Can we fire TyCo yet?

Because for some reason DC and JE doesn't play during these horrible losses when shit counts? I am sooooo over safe coaching at this point. I think some peeps got pysched because we beat up on a few non-playoff teams and the Nets at home and all the sudden there was a lot of questioning love in the room. Maybe Ty ain't suck bad. Maybe Ty won't ride Foye when he sucks. Maybe Ty gives Burkes minutes when Mo blows. Same drill, different game.

Jazz haven't done squat for months now despite a deep roster.
And. Doh! The ten deep Nuggies just showed how to do it in a smaller market without an All-star.

I was thinking about this during the game. Why are the Nuggets, who aren't any better on paper, having so much more success this year? The Nuggets are 10 deep, so are the Jazz (probably even 11). I think it boils down to the Jazz' rotations. (Yup, another blame the coach response.) I can't claim to have seen more than a handful of Nuggets games, but what I have seen is that they play the hot hand, don't force feed guys that aren't on their game, play as a team, and aren't afraid to bench players that aren't getting it done (i.e. McGee). All those things are things that the Jazz DON'T do very often. They ride the veteran hand, instead of the hot hand. They force feed Al no matter what else is working. They don't seem to understand that you don't just let 2 or 3 guys shoot their way out of a bad performance... you sit them down & give someone else a try. It's not like Foye is Kevin Durant. If KD has a bad stretch of games, you still give him the rock. If Foye, Mo, etc have a bad stretch, you limit their minutes & try someone else.

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but I guess NBA coaching is more complicated than that.

zero24gravity wrote:

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but I guess NBA coaching is more complicated than that.

I don't think it is, at all, and has been the center of our gripes with Ty all damn season long. I know Mags ain't a Karl fan but he has been tuning that team for several seasons now as a 10-deep roster and I'm tipping my hat because they are arguably the hottest team in the league since the All-star break and flat out roaring into the playoffs. Talk about a team no body wants to see in the first round! And as you noted, Karl is really smart about keeping a dynamic assemblage, often unorthodox, out on the floor no matter who starts. He looks at all 10 guys as mix and match tools. Have read several commentators and blogs this morning that did not miss the irony that the Nuggs on paper are no better than the Jazz yet Ty simply cannot break out of his "traditional" thinking when it comes to the Jazz lineup. He had a window mid-season when the Jazz started on that terrible run that happened to coincide with Burks, Kanter, and DC's exclamation point performances that they deserved more run. Right then and there was the time to adapt on the fly a develop a solid 10-11 man rotation. Tell me DC and JE would be getting DNP's on the Nuggies! No way, they would be strategically used juice guys, valuable contributors, and nights they were hot would log more minutes than the starters.

MTJazz wrote:

Yup. Ditto. Said that in the other thread but didn't bother to go into rotation failures.

Can we fire TyCo yet?

Because for some reason DC and JE doesn't play during these horrible losses when shit counts? I am sooooo over safe coaching at this point. I think some peeps got pysched because we beat up on a few non-playoff teams and the Nets at home and all the sudden there was a lot of questioning love in the room. Maybe Ty ain't suck bad. Maybe Ty won't ride Foye when he sucks. Maybe Ty gives Burkes minutes when Mo blows. Same drill, different game.

Jazz haven't done squat for months now despite a deep roster.
And. Doh! The ten deep Nuggies just showed how to do it in a smaller market without an All-star.

The Nuggets are a great comp, and I actaully think this Jazz team is one year behind the Nuggets, only with worse coaching.

If you recall last year the Nuggets had a heck of a time finding an identitiy, struggled all season, and faced a full scale revolt from fans demanding that George Karl be fired. Why were fans so upset? Because guys like Nene (injured), Al Harrington, Chris Anderson, and Timofey Mozgov were getting minutes in front of productive young players like Kosta Koufos, Javale McGee, and Kenneth Faried. Because the team couldn't play a lick of D, and they seemed to lack an identity. Any of that sound familiar?

The front office fixed their problems with a heady mix of boldness, intelligence, and luck, dumping most of the vets and bringing in Andre Igoudala. And what do you know... miracle of miracles, George Karl is suddenly one of the best coaches in the NBA again.

I'm just glad this season is almost over. Sometimes I think we all forget that this was pretty much the plan from the Jazz front office. They have been bandaiding together a roster with flawed veterans for two years as they nurse along a promising young group of players. They have purposely avoided any long term commitements, even when there were moves that would improve the team, in order to play the long game with these young players.

This summer is supposed to be the time we've all been waiting for, the time when the team gets turned over to the next generation, the time when the Jazz begin to use all of the flexibility they have worked so hard to preserve to build a real team, a team that can contend. It likely won't all happen this summer, but at the very least we should see a changing of the guard, and for me that couldn't come a minute too soon.

For me a worst case scenario at this point is that the Jazz front office continues to do what it has been doing for another year. Signing (or re-signing) vets, bringing in washed up rentals, making short term deals, all in an effort to be competitive without really being competitive. I don't think I can take it. I'd rather see them fill the roster with draft picks and D-Leaguers than see another season of this.

MTJazz wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but I guess NBA coaching is more complicated than that.

I don't think it is, at all, and has been the center of our gripes with Ty all damn season long. I know Mags ain't a Karl fan but he has been tuning that team for several seasons now as a 10-deep roster and I'm tipping my hat because they are arguably the hottest team in the league since the All-star break and flat out roaring into the playoffs. Talk about a team no body wants to see in the first round! And as you noted, Karl is really smart about keeping a dynamic assemblage, often unorthodox, out on the floor no matter who starts. He looks at all 10 guys as mix and match tools. Have read several commentators and blogs this morning that did not miss the irony that the Nuggs on paper are no better than the Jazz yet Ty simply cannot break out of his "traditional" thinking when it comes to the Jazz lineup. He had a window mid-season when the Jazz started on that terrible run that happened to coincide with Burks, Kanter, and DC's exclamation point performances that they deserved more run. Right then and there was the time to adapt on the fly a develop a solid 10-11 man rotation. Tell me DC and JE would be getting DNP's on the Nuggies! No way, they would be strategically used juice guys, valuable contributors, and nights they were hot would log more minutes than the starters.

"on paper"....Isn't that the story of this team this season?

Mo Williams and Al Jefferson have to be two of the seminal "on paper" performers in the NBA.

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

MTJazz wrote:

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

I actually wouldn't mind keeping Marvin, I think he's a nice player off the bench who was badly misused for the better part of this season, but I also think he could be a nice trade piece with his expiring contract (Goran Dragic anybody?).

Everybody knows how I feel about Millsap, but I'm honestly not really loving the possible free agent crop this summer. If the Jazz do go after somebody I'd rather see them target a younger player long term than a veteran rental. OJ Mayo is likley going to opt out of his deal, Tyreke Evans is a restricted free agent, JJ Redick is a free agent, I would love to see any of those guys in a Jazz uniform for the next 3-4 years. Jarrett Jack is another guy who'd be worth a long term deal. Regardless, I'm tired of rentals, time to start actually building a team.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

I actually wouldn't mind keeping Marvin, I think he's a nice player off the bench who was badly misused for the better part of this season, but I also think he could be a nice trade piece with his expiring contract (Goran Dragic anybody?).

Everybody knows how I feel about Millsap, but I'm honestly not really loving the possible free agent crop this summer. If the Jazz do go after somebody I'd rather see them target a younger player long term than a veteran rental. OJ Mayo is likley going to opt out of his deal, Tyreke Evans is a restricted free agent, JJ Redick is a free agent, I would love to see any of those guys in a Jazz uniform for the next 3-4 years. Jarrett Jack is another guy who'd be worth a long term deal. Regardless, I'm tired of rentals, time to start actually building a team.

I love the idea of getting either JJ Redick or Jarret Jack! Not so hot on OJ or Tyrekefor the Jazz.

The Jazz aren't tanking, but we did get our butts handed to us last night. Corey Brewer coming off the bench consistently did us in. I wouldn't mind seeing him come off our bench! I didn't think we played that bad-- except we couldn't stop penetration on defense, and Mo and Randy weren't hitting shots like their counterparts on the Nugs.

MTJazz wrote:

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

A nice article from SLCDunk that pretty concisely sums up the feeling of a lot of fans after last nights loss I think....

Quote :

...

Way to go, Kevin O'Connor. Way to go, Tyrone Corbin. Way to go, Utah Jazz. What an incredible 3-year run this has been.

And yes: I am so freaking ready to move on from the current era. I cannot fathom what our front office has been thinking all this time. You don't MAKE that Deron trade in the first place if you are obsessed with winning as much as possible now. You don't MAKE the kind of ongoing roster moves that have been going on all this time if you care about winning as much as possible now. Seriously: Marvin Williams, Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Josh Howard, Jamaal Tinsley ... these are the moves to help the team win now?

Come on ... look at Denver: Two high quality PG's (Ty Lawson and Andre Miller), four good wings (Gallo, Iggy, Chandler, Brewer), three high qualtiy bigs (Faried, McGee, Koufos). That's a roster that freaking makes sense. That's a roster built on a coherent vision (speed, high percentage shots, and enough defense to be good ... you know, the Deron/AK/Boozer/Memo team vision).
Instead we have a team of four high quality bigs, one high quality wing, no decent PG's, and one guy who may be good but the coach can't be bothered to play him enough to figure it out.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a PG worth something, but it's too scary to find one.

Trapped by conservatism, paralyzed by cowardice, coached via incompetence ... that's our team.

...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/4/4/4181896/Nuggets-Jazz-April-3-Recap

That's just a piece of it, and I think whether you agree or not the whole thing is worth your time. I personally don't agree with all of it, but I defintiely feel the angst, and I am definitely losing patience.

Zach Lowe's stuff is a must read for Jazz fans....

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57145/salt-lake-sadness-playoff-bound-or-not-the-jazz-cant-escape-their-biggest-problem

Seriously, go read the whole thing, here's a few highlights...

Quote :

Salt Lake Sadness: Playoff-Bound or Not, the Jazz Can't Escape Their Biggest Problem
...


But Utah has subtly changed its offensive process, starting a few games before that five-game win streak. And those changes helped Utah work its way out of a nasty offensive slump. The Jazz were a top-10 offense last season and for most of this season, but from about mid-February through mid-March, they weirdly fell off, scoring at a bottom-10 rate. A team that defends like the Jazz cannot survive scoring at a bottom-10 rate. Utah’s post-heavy offense had become slow and predictable; Al Jefferson, the fulcrum of that offense, went into a slump, and the Jazz didn’t feature enough variety to keep things afloat when Big Al’s game went off the rails.

...


The changes are reflected in Utah’s overall offensive numbers in that 10-game stretch, and especially in Jefferson’s numbers. About 16 percent of Utah’s possessions for the season have finished with a post-up play, per Synergy, the second-highest such share in the league, behind only the behemoth Pacers. That number is down to 12 percent of late, and if you dig deeper, you see Utah has redistributed those post possessions to pick-and-rolls and a huge jump in plays Synergy simply classifies as “cuts.” And if you dig even deeper and watch the tape, you’ll find most of those “cuts” — efficient looks Utah is snagging at a league-best rate during the last three weeks — come out of pick-and-rolls.

...

I’ve hit Corbin, who declined to comment for this story, hard this season for shaky rotations and an incoherent defensive scheme. But he deserves a lot of credit for making these late-season adjustments, tightening Utah’s rotation a bit, and generally getting a ton of outgoing free agents to play with a team-first mentality. None of that stuff is easy....

And Corbin has adjusted his defense of late, too. I pointed out last month that Utah was having its bigs jump out hard on pick-and-rolls, even though Jefferson especially isn’t very good at that, lacking the foot speed and general awareness to run out beyond the 3-point arc and recover in time. That’s happening much less of late. Corbin has Jefferson (and Millsap) either dropping back toward the foul line or sliding laterally on pick-and-rolls, a strategy that might make it easier for them to contain opposing point guards while keeping them closer to the paint.

Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked. The Jazz, even in that happy 10-game stretch, allowed 104.8 points per 100 possessions, almost exactly equivalent to their season-long mark, which is the ninth-worst in the league, per NBA.com. That number was even worse during the five-game win streak.

Bottom line: This team just can’t defend, regardless of their strategy, and especially when both Jefferson and Williams are on the floor. Those are two very bad defenders at very important positions, and it would be difficult for any coach to build a top-10 defense around them. Of course, coaches control playing time and rotations, and construct overall schemes, and Utah has never had the five-man-on-a-string unity of the league’s better defenses. The Nuggets picked Utah apart last night on very simple plays, often leaving the Jazz looking strangely baffled.

...

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57145/salt-lake-sadness-playoff-bound-or-not-the-jazz-cant-escape-their-biggest-problem

And this...
"The Jazz have righted themselves, but only on one end of the floor. Until they figure out the other end, their ceiling remains woefully low."

Sadly, while the Jazz D will be better with either Favors or Kanter manning the C, neither one of those guys is going to replace Al's scoring. Al is a smart and creative offensive player. Who knows, maybe it will be replaced by some combination of a SG who is actually a shooter, GH's uptick in production or a Nuggies-style 10-man deep juggernaut.

At the end of the day the Jazz are just poorly built team this year for the style of offense and defense, (the latter which I have still not figured out at all, has anyone else?), that Ty is initiating. The main failure I see is not tweaking the systems to the unique players on the roster.

Awesome to have such solid writing coming out of Grantland, my new favorite site.

MTJazz wrote:

Sadly, while the Jazz D will be better with either Favors or Kanter manning the C, neither one of those guys is going to replace Al's scoring. Al is a smart and creative offensive player. Who knows, maybe it will be replaced by some combination of a SG who is actually a shooter, GH's uptick in production or a Nuggies-style 10-man deep juggernaut.

At the end of the day the Jazz are just poorly built team this year for the style of offense and defense, (the latter which I have still not figured out at all, has anyone else?), that Ty is initiating. The main failure I see is not tweaking the systems to the unique players on the roster.

Sure, but you know whats nice? This team minus Al wouldn't have to score as much to win games either.
This is obviously just random numbers but our team now with Al and his scoring 20pts in the paint a night, thats our positive for the team. Our negative is that Al is giving up 30pts a night via pick and rolls, slashing etc and opposite team scoring in the post. So we have to make up 10+ points a night as it is. We get rid of that, and you telling me that Kanter and Fav can't make up the "10 actual points" Al is giving us?
I think we're in a GREAT position with him leaving.

The other side of that, is that Corbin hasn't shown a thing about coaching to everyone else's talents. Jerry had an absolute system in place with Karl and John and then Dwill and Booz. And they were able to bring in complimentary players that fit that system. Well TYRONE, there is NO absolutes here, and DEFINITELY no system. Fav/Kanter/Paul/Burks/DC/Gordo/Mo are NOT players that fit the Corbin "dump it into Al" offense. These guys need movement, motion, cuts. I believe, BELIEVE 100% that Tyrone Corbin does not have the mental abilities, and basketball know-how to coach this team properly.
This team could be REALLY good next year, with the right coach and the right stud player added to it this summer with all that cash etc.