Jazz trade to bring in Mo Williams.

Saint Louis wrote:

MuTang, I don't know about the others, but I've never said Mo wouldn't be a good starting PG! I even compared him to Lou Williams (76ers) and James Harden (OKC), saying all of them would be good (very good IMO) starting PGs for most teams. The worst thing I said about Mo was that I thought Devin Harris might be a better starting PG than Mo-- and I qualified that by saying Mo has more upside than Harris as a tweener. I didn't mean to degrade Mo in any way by saying he has added value as a tweener (that would be like saying D Wade has less value as a SG because he has added value of good PG skills).

I did say Mo might have matchup problems against some starting PGs in the league-- but, now that I think of it, most starting PGs will have matchup problems against some of the league's great starting PGs.

As I said in my earlier post, the only thing I'm unsure about is the financial side of it. Mo, if I have it right, would have been an unrestricted FA, and probably (I don't see why, but this is what I've heard) wouldn't get offers as high as 8 mil. If that's the case-- wouldn't it have been better financially for the Jazz to keep their exception for the Memo trade and go after Mo in the free market (and probably sign him for less than what we are paying him now)? The answer to that may be yes-- but, if it is, I think the reason the Jazz moved on this is that KOC realizes letting Mo slip away from the Jazz to begin with was probably the worst decision he has made. I wouldn't want to make the same mistake twice, and I think that's why the Jazz snatched Mo up now rather than waiting and possibly missing out on the chance to get him back.

I misunderstood then. I think Mo is going to be great. He was an all star in 2009, and I bet he is in the conversation this year for it.

And I think you're right. Mo was going to be highly valued by alot of teams. ***** were interested, and plenty others. KOC knew this, has openly admitted he hates that he let him go the first time. I think Utah/KOC also was smart to go after a guy like MO who the Clippers plainly let know they didn't think he was good enough. KOC went to him and said, "We love you, miss you, and think you're exactly what we need." Smart, so smart after LA wanted someone else, CP3, instead.

“He’s really excited,” Bartelstein said. “This is where his career started. They’ve got a terrific young team. He thinks he can come in and bring real leadership. He’s excited about that. They made it clear how much they wanted him. They did a good job of recruiting him.”

David Aldridge ‏@daldridgetnt
Williams met with Utah GM Kevin O'Connor before deciding to opt in. Williams wants to start again at the point after moving for CP in L.A.

Perfect.

Glad we got him, whatever happens. His play, while still not a textbook 'facilitator'-type PG, suits the Jazz team better than Harris, I think.

Also, some people say Watson, some say Tinsley...both old, lousy shooters, great character guys...but I'm totally down in the Tinsley camp. He showed some amazing flash when he got his chance last year, maybe not the defensive pest Watson is, but WAAAAY better at running the offense. Also, he's got more gas in the tank than Watson, and more upside. "But wait, Trolly" you say "Tinsley's 34, Watson's only 33!" *ahem*

Tinsley sat out 2 years. He's only played 13K minutes in 473 games over 9 seasons, Watson's played 18.5K minutes in 806 games in 11 seasons. Tinsley's a "young" 34. Also, taking a lonely Euro-doofus like Kanter under his wing was beyond "good character", it was...well, it was downright sweet. (awwww....)

Oh, and another thing. Let's get straight about "KOC's biggest mistake". The Jazz had just obtained Rico Suave errr...Carlos "Fathead" Arroyo fresh off scoring a bajillion against the US and Raul Lopez, who consistently made the supposedly good Tony Parker look like a baguette-eating Frenchie. The Jazz ALSO had Mo, and DID HIM A FREAKING FAVOR by letting him go, since, in those pre-ego and pre-blown-knee days, it didn't look like he'd be playing much.

It was an honorable thing to do, and a logical move given that O'CONNOR DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN to his two latino PGs. Easy to second-guess now, of course, but it was only a mistake in hindsight. Makes a good story: "GM takes opportunity to atone for past mistake", but it ain't really true.

ps) Mo Williams also made one of the all-time greatest hustle plays I've ever seen. Probably not on YouTube anywhere, but he made a ridiculous effort to tip away a 'gimme' inbounds pass, then, unbelievably, somehow, got his feet under him and chased the tipped pass to the baseline and then, even though he couldn't actually get to the ball, HE GOT TO THE BALL ANYWAY, and diving over the endline (staying inbounds by refusing to reach out and brace himself) managed to tip the damn thing to a teammate. And I was all like "WTF?"

It was three different kinds of unbelievable, and burned itself into my memory, like an MJ game-winner or Shaq power dunk. It wasn't in a "big game" or even a "clutch situation" and I thought that made it an even more impressive play.

Mutangclan wrote:

He (Mo) was an all star in 2009.

Actually, Devin Harris made that 2009 Eastern All Star team ahead of Mo. Devin was named in the initial bunch of reserves in late January, 2009. Mo made the team on February 11th as a last minute replacement for the injured Chris Bosh.

But I am really excited to see what Mo can do for us!

TheMagnus wrote:

I don't know man, I think the Jazz Brass will be pretty satisfied to sit back and see how this group can do. I think the only guy they are eager to dump is Bell, AND CJ MILES BECAUSE HE SUCKS BIG DONKEY **** AND I'M SO TIRED OF HIS "GREAT PLAYER" ATTITUDE ALL WHILE BEING A MORON PLAYER, other than that, if they don't get a good deal then I think they give this team a run as it is.l

Good post Magnus, totally agree.

Trollificus wrote:

Glad we got him, whatever happens. His play, while still not a textbook 'facilitator'-type PG, suits the Jazz team better than Harris, I think.

Also, some people say Watson, some say Tinsley...both old, lousy shooters, great character guys...but I'm totally down in the Tinsley camp. He showed some amazing flash when he got his chance last year, maybe not the defensive pest Watson is, but WAAAAY better at running the offense. Also, he's got more gas in the tank than Watson, and more upside. "But wait, Trolly" you say "Tinsley's 34, Watson's only 33!" *ahem*

Tinsley sat out 2 years. He's only played 13K minutes in 473 games over 9 seasons, Watson's played 18.5K minutes in 806 games in 11 seasons. Tinsley's a "young" 34. Also, taking a lonely Euro-doofus like Kanter under his wing was beyond "good character", it was...well, it was downright sweet. (awwww....)

Oh, and another thing. Let's get straight about "KOC's biggest mistake". The Jazz had just obtained Rico Suave errr...Carlos "Fathead" Arroyo fresh off scoring a bajillion against the US and Raul Lopez, who consistently made the supposedly good Tony Parker look like a baguette-eating Frenchie. The Jazz ALSO had Mo, and DID HIM A FREAKING FAVOR by letting him go, since, in those pre-ego and pre-blown-knee days, it didn't look like he'd be playing much.

It was an honorable thing to do, and a logical move given that O'CONNOR DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN to his two latino PGs. Easy to second-guess now, of course, but it was only a mistake in hindsight. Makes a good story: "GM takes opportunity to atone for past mistake", but it ain't really true.

Yea, great reminder Troll on KOC's letting Mo go. Arroyo was outstanding in the Olympics. He was fast, dominant, and ran circles around the US. He was the choice, Mo hadn't done anything yet, so it was the smart move for KOC to make. It was just too bad.

Secondly, I'll actually disagree Troll. I know Tinsley is now signed, but kind of hoping its because Devin is gone.
I think Tinsley last year was probably the better choice with the type of PG that Devin was. But now, with Mo on board as a scoring/passing/leading PG, I think Watson is a much better fit. When my teams have a leading PG, solid all around, I want my back up to be a bulldog; I want him to defend like a Sasquatch (you know, all up in your business, hair all over, drapping on you, smell the funk, fear that nasty Squatch), make that other PG work and over all just be "that" guy that opposing teams hate. That opposing teams think, oh f***, Earl is going to drive me nuts. I think Earl's energy, tenaciousness and the way he can lead a second unit with energy and getting guys to buy in, is the perfect fit. He did that countless times last year, and now has an even better crew to do that with.
Also, Earl is a great defender so there's no drop off, and probably a pickup on D, verses Tinsley where there is a drop of on D.
If both are kept because of no Devin, then great. But Earl is definitely my guy for the backup now.

Just got back, and got a few texts about the mo williams trade. I have not seen anything else. Im getting back to society. Not sure if this has been said, but i love it.

I dont look at this as an upgrade at backup PG, but i really like this for the wings. You have 96 minutes on the wings, unless they play ATL. I see Hayward as 32 minutes, burks at 22-24 minutes minutes next year. That leaves about 40 minutes left. With Mo, I see 12 minutes a game at SG. (He will also eat up any time Harris is not playing.) I was not a big fan of Harris at the 2, because as much as i like watson, he should not be playing starters minutes, it would require to move Harris to the 2. Now, utah has a backup PG good enough to move harris to the 2. Where they put harris and williams when together is not that big to me. Its now they have so much more flexibility.

I'm shocked that nobody has mentioned the other player that the Jazz aquired in the Mo deal ..... Shan Foster

http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=BEL&PlayerID=72564

I guess he's another outside shooter that they can bring into camp .... I guess

therawns wrote:

Just got back, and got a few texts about the mo williams trade. I have not seen anything else. Im getting back to society. Not sure if this has been said, but i love it.

I dont look at this as an upgrade at backup PG, but i really like this for the wings. You have 96 minutes on the wings, unless they play ATL. I see Hayward as 32 minutes, burks at 22-24 minutes minutes next year. That leaves about 40 minutes left. With Mo, I see 12 minutes a game at SG. (He will also eat up any time Harris is not playing.) I was not a big fan of Harris at the 2, because as much as i like watson, he should not be playing starters minutes, it would require to move Harris to the 2. Now, utah has a backup PG good enough to move harris to the 2. Where they put harris and williams when together is not that big to me. Its now they have so much more flexibility.

I think Mo is being brought over to be our solid starting pg, whether Devin stays or not. Mo is a better player in every area vs Devin in my opinion, easy.

Wait...Hayward's at the 2. Burks showed some scoring potential at the 2, and Murphy is a solid 2 (in that it appears to be his natural and only NBA postion).

Why on earth would we ever put undersized Devin Harris alongside a PG? Do not want.

Trollificus wrote:

Wait...Hayward's at the 2. Burks showed some scoring potential at the 2, and Murphy is a solid 2 (in that it appears to be his natural and only NBA postion).

Why on earth would we ever put undersized Devin Harris alongside a PG? Do not want.

Yeaaaaaaa, Devin on the move, eh?? Probably need to be more aware of the obvious with KOC's plans and Devin---Tinsley was signed too. Bring on the Devin trade!

Mutangclan wrote:

I think Mo is being brought over to be our solid starting pg, whether Devin stays or not. Mo is a better player in every area vs Devin in my opinion, easy.

I am very excited to have Mo back, but by the stats I looked at, it is far from an easy call. Magnus probably has a lot more stats, but Devin beats out Mo pretty handily the last couple of years in NBA.com's efficiency per 48minutes and Dougs stats' tendex per 48 minutes. Three years ago they were dead even on efficiency per 48 minutes and tendex per 48 minutes. Four years ago, during their mutual All Star year, the 08-09 season, Devin beat Mo by a wide margin on the tendex per 48 minute stats. Currently, both of them have declined quite a bit on the productivity per 48 ratings versus their All Star year. Devin also beat Mo on assists per 48 minutes three out of the last four seasons, with the fourth season, the season they were both traded, being a draw. Neither of them performed well in the just completed playoffs, with Harris performing worse.

I know there are added complications with these stats like Mo coming off the bench for instant scoring this past season versus looking for assists, as well as Lebron handling the ball a lot in Cleveland, but having looked at the stats a little more, I would be in favor of starting the season with both of them and see how things go. I would also like to see them play together some. If Mo is playing real well, there will probably be a better opportunity to trade Harris for good assets after the season starts, when some starting point guard goes down somewhere with an injury. JMHO.

I think Devin's and Mo's situations couldn't have been more different, and is the most important reflection of their differences. I dont even think you can really compare them like that.

Devin for the past 5 years, and actually all of his career was considered the starting and really only PG on his teams. Mo on the other hand was forced to play with a ball dominating Lebron, and then after finally getting the trade he wanted to the Clips, for the games he was there that 10-11 season, he averaged 15pts and 6ast. And that was on a brand new team. Also, while he was the starting PG in Milwaukee, he averaged that. Then before last year, the rug was taken out from underneath him and they kicked him out of the starting PG spot for CP3, and he was being forced, again, to just be a scorer like he was with Lebron. Devin last year, in our supposedly PG friendly offense, did 11pts and 5ast. Thats key right there. Along with the fact that Mo is a better 3pt shooter and mid range shooter too, it's a wide wide valley difference between the two. I wont even talk about the chip on the shoulder, competitive punch you in the mouth type attitude Mo brings, compaired to Devin's not always driven, sometimes excited, mostly even kneeled way of playing. Ugh, give me Mo all day long.

When Mo has been in a situation where they wanted him to lead and be the type of PG we need, he's good.

Mutangclan wrote:

I wont even talk about the chip on the shoulder, competitive punch you in the mouth type attitude Mo brings, compaired to Devin's not always driven, sometimes excited, mostly even kneeled way of playing. Ugh, give me Mo all day long.

When Mo has been in a situation where they wanted him to lead and be the type of PG we need, he's good.

Well Mu, Obviously O'Conner agrees with you as evidenced by his trading Harris. And I think all of us remember Mo playing with intensity and heart the short time he was here, so I am excited to move forward with Mo and see what he can do given the reins. I remember one game that we had given up as a loss where Mo almost (or did) singlehandedly brought us back. He definitely wants to win. Mo was devastated when Lebron gave up on Cleveland, instantly turning Cleveland in to a loser.

As for O'Conner's other move, bringing in Marvin, I am a little worried about whether he will bring the intensity, heart and will to win that we want to see in our players. I have no memory of Marvin ever making an impression on me, but I rarely see Hawks' games. I have hope though, merely by the fact that O'Conner wants him. O'Conner is getting better with age, so hopefully this is another winning decision. It is also a contract year for Marvin, so he has both contract incentive as well as an opportunity to make a positive fresh start on a new team. Go Jazz!!!

Crunchtime1 wrote:

Well Mu, Obviously O'Conner agrees with you as evidenced by his trading Harris. And I think all of us remember Mo playing with intensity and heart the short time he was here, so I am excited to move forward with Mo and see what he can do given the reins. I remember one game that we had given up as a loss where Mo almost (or did) singlehandedly brought us back. He definitely wants to win. Mo was devastated when Lebron gave up on Cleveland, instantly turning Cleveland in to a loser.

As for O'Conner's other move, bringing in Marvin, I am a little worried about whether he will bring the intensity, heart and will to win that we want to see in our players. I have no memory of Marvin ever making an impression on me, but I rarely see Hawks' games. I have hope though, merely by the fact that O'Conner wants him. O'Conner is getting better with age, so hopefully this is another winning decision. It is also a contract year for Marvin, so he has both contract incentive as well as an opportunity to make a positive fresh start on a new team. Go Jazz!!!

Well, I agree about what Marvin will bring. But you know what nice, is that we really aren't depending on him for anything IMO. Hawks fans hated on him and it wasn't even his fault they drafted him so high; he was unproven and the Hawks blew it. If he was picked 30th, everythign would have been different for him. Whatever he brings, 3's, rebounding is going to be icing on the cake. We've got our big guns already....I tend to think the only thing that would help Marv would be a change of scenery. Other thing is that this team is 10x better at spacing the floor, low post scoring is much better and we even have a better PG to help make Marv successful in Mo. And like you said, it's a contract year for Marv.
Although I was hoping for much better by sending Devin out with something else for a stud, I like this trade quite a bit today.

Looking around the league all of the top PG's now a day's are not pass first type's most of them are among their team's top scores and I think Mo fit's into this type quite will and I think he is going to make the Jazz a lot better team when it is all said and done. I think he is going to be one of the top PG's in the league playing with this team because of the caliber of players that this team has. He will surely be a better PG for the Jazz than Harris was because of his ability to put the ball in the basket from long range that will open up the paint for our big's to do what they do best, I am excited to get this season going to see how well these guy will play together.

As far as Marvin Williams goes the thing that he can do is hit 3 point shots and with the Jazz system players seem to be able to preform at a higher level so maybe he will turnout to be a better player for the Jazz than he was for the Hawk's we will have to wait and see if this is the case for him. As for him picking up the player option that he has it will all depend on if he will be OK coming off of the bench behind Hayward if he has one of his better season and is in the race for 6th man award or win's the starting job then maybe he does pick it up and if that's what happen's then the Jazz will be better because of it we will just have to see how things turn out this coming season.

Mo Williams: “I like competing against Chris Paul. I like competing against Derrick Rose. I like competing against Russell Westbrook. Obviously, I'm a team guy. I feel like my team can win. I don't individually have to beat you. You can be the superstar of the league — it doesn't bother me. But I guarantee [game] night, my team will win.”

Tenacious player, on both ends. Confident. Can back it up. Leader this team was missing. Sweet.

Even if Mo and Devin were the exact same player on the court, the fire and competitiveness Mo brings make it worth the swap.

I think a lot of people are gonna be shocked at how much better we are just because of Mo replacing Harris.

Mo is a very good clutch time player. Devin liked to take the clutch shot, but never made it. Mo plays with a chip on his shoulder where Devin's play was too laid back and mellow.

I can almost guarantee that everyone will be happy about this move by the end of next season. I'm just a little upset I'm not going to get to go to any games this season.

I was big on Mo coming to Utah as soon as LA and Dallas were looking for a 3rd team to get Odom moved and someone to take Mo. Felt like he would be much much better than Devin and I think he's going to be outstanding for us.

SLCDunk goes really in depth, numbers etc on comparing the two. Pretty good stuff. Only thing I dont agree with for this upcoming season, is the assists. They say Devin gets more assists. My opinion, Mo will get more and only reason he didn't previously is because he's been forced to be a SG the last 3-4 seasons.
Mo's going to be awesome.

http://www.slcdunk.com/2012/7/3/3134277/statistical-analysis-mo-williams-and-devin-harris-2009-10-to-present#storyjump