Nice read by Locke.

Sorry man, but that's just crap. You win games by playing the best players. Period.

And why dont you name and give the measurements of the four starting power forwards in the conference finals, then we can discuss the only realy meaningless word in this conversation..."undersized".

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Still haven't heard a good reason to start favors, just a lot of nonsense about making him happy.

the weakness of that argument tells me two things, he hasn't earned the spot, and jazz fans STILL criminally undervalue Millsap. He's the guy we should be worried about losing.

Earned a spot...... What does that even mean? Plays the hardest? Gordo? Scores the most? Thats Al. Toughest? That may even be Kanter. Longevity in the league? If thats the case then Earl should start. Its not like Favors hasn't done everything the Jazz have asked him too, he has. He's been great, and he plays balls-out. Same with Paul. So whats "earning a spot" mean??? (and you know I dont mean that in a disrespectful way mag) I think thats the thing that is nonsense. Start the best balanced 5 out there, that also gives us a balanced and strong bench. I have posted and acknowledged I dont think anyone should be starting just to make them happy. Who gives a shhhh about that. But I do think that a starting 5 of Mo/GH/Marv/Fav/Al is the best 5 to start out. I think that gives us a REDIC strong, vet smart beast balanced bench that way. Roye/Burks/Paul/UnderK can bring outside shooting, slashing, mid-range, rebounding, post play too.

I have already mentioned I think Paul should play more minutes than Marv, as should Burks. I think that gives us 5 players out there that can attack from everywhere, gives us rebounding, shot blocking, passing and 3pt shooting. Spaces the floor for our bigs, and with that 5, what is the downside? Any? (Sidenote, there is a small situation there that I DO think should be looked at as the great "starting" position: Marv. He could benefit most I think from Utah saying we want you to start us off, on his fresh start team.) Notably, we are not undersized at any position, we have 5 guys that can defend their guy. Also, if we get pick and rolled with bigs, Derrick can guard the PF or Center and at least not be outsized. Bynum/Gasol, Ibaka/Perkins, Dirk/Kaman, Love/Pekovic and on and on: starting Paul and Al, Paul would be undersized against all of them, and we've seen the Jazz suffer from that. Staring Fav and Al, we are not undersized, and can guard those all those twin towers more efficiently.

Paul has consistently shown over there years he can dominate with the second unit. Again, James Harden said he doesn't mind coming off the bench as long as they win, and that guy is an Olympian. Coming off the bench he can also come in for either Al or Fav, or even come in as the SF. His versatility is the best on the team and an asset; why not use it? Paul plays 32mins a night, then whats the problem??

Lastly, Paul should care about winning games, not starting.

In a perfect world, I like Jefferson as the 6th man. Problem is that means starting millsap and favors to go with jefferson and kanter off the bench. I dont like kanter and jefferson together. Jefferson is the dynamic scorer off the bench that people love to have.

also in a perfect world all he cares about is winning. Problem is we dont live in a perfect world. Millsap is going into a contract year. Good luck convincing millsap they want to bring him off the bench, and keeping him happy. He has been the ultimate professional. He is my fave because of his professionalism. However, I dont see how Corbin goes up to him to tell him he is coming off the bench, and millsap not exploding on him.

TheMagnus wrote:

Sorry man, but that's just crap. You win games by playing the best players. Period.

And why dont you name and give the measurements of the four starting power forwards in the conference finals, then we can discuss the only realy meaningless word in this conversation..."undersized".

Ok, and if Paul plays the most minutes of anyone on the team, seeing as how he's also so versatile, how is that not playing the best player? You telling me, Paul should complain if he's playing 35minutes a night?
I think whats crap, is that because Paul has been the best player on a mediocre team, that he should continue to be able to "claim" his starting spot. There is a possibility that maybe other talents mesh better with Al, Gordo or Mo. Doesn't mean Pauls not great.

Conference finals? What does that have to do with the 82 other games that get you a decent seed? Thats only 4 teams, and also all those 4 teams have superstars as well, which we dont. Different dynamics. Not to mention Ibaka, Chris Bosh......

As much as I love Milsap and I do love him, he is the only Jazz player that I own a jersey of. If he is the best player on your team, you are in trouble.

In the end it doesn't really matter who starts. As long as Corbin is playing the guys that are playing the best on any given night, the Jazz are gonna be ok.

Also there are some people that Milsap just doesn't play well against. He has always had trouble with really long guys. In those situations Favors has to get the majority of the minutes at the 4 spot.


Can I just say that I love that we are finally getting into some solid disagreements on here. Not the petty douchebag disagreement either. Both sides are actually backed up by good arguements.

I love you guys.....

Romoholic wrote:

As much as I love Milsap and I do love him, he is the only Jazz player that I own a jersey of. If he is the best player on your team, you are in trouble.

In the end it doesn't really matter who starts. As long as Corbin is playing the guys that are playing the best on any given night, the Jazz are gonna be ok.

Also there are some people that Milsap just doesn't play well against. He has always had trouble with really long guys. In those situations Favors has to get the majority of the minutes at the 4 spot.


Can I just say that I love that we are finally getting into some solid disagreements on here. Not the petty douchebag disagreement either. Both sides are actually backed up by good arguements.

I love you guys.....

Wow, what a great thread! I agree with everyone to a certain degree! If the Jazz could make our Millman agree to come off the bench, then I would agree with all those countering Magnus in his arguments. But, since I haven't heard anything from the Mill or his agent, I think Magnus has the situation pegged. Other than starting Millsap or having Millsap coming out and saying he would be extremely happy coming off the bench for Utah, I'd have to say the only way we can proceed with Millsap is by either starting him or trading him (as our way of saying: if you're not willing to come off the bench, we can't use you). None of us want Millsap to be traded, and that's admirable in a fan base.

I think a bigger problem is at our Center position. We've banked on Big Al for his offensive abilities, and have been rewarded frequently. But, Big Al's defensive liabilities compound our problem with Millsap and others at the four. I may be in the minority here, but I still think Big Al would be a much better PF than a Center. With all of our talk over who should be starting at the four, it's almost silly to suggest Big Al should be our starting PF. Unless kanter improves, he wouldn't be able to start against most of the NBA teams. It seems impossible to get a big center like Bynum that would allow us to move Big Al to a starting positon at the PF position. I don't have an answer, but, I think I can at least recognize a problem the Jazz will need to address.

Millsap can only say "I don't care how they use me, I just want to play." until AFTER he's got his 5-year $50 mill contract. Until he gets that, he has to show other teams what he's worth and somehow, in some people's minds, that means being a starter.

I say extend him. I can't believe he can get a whole lot better, he's improved every year (though his rebounding really isn't what it once was) and even if he continues that, it can't be a huge jump. (CAN it?). But he's proven to be durable,a perfect teammate, effective defender, quiet leader-by-example, good jump shooter and he's kept the hustle and junk scoring that got him drafted. What more could we want?

Players bigger and more athletic than Paul come into the league every year and he eats them up. Who would you put in his place? Somebody who MIGHT become as good a player (but isn't undersized)?? Why not just keep the guy who's already "as good as Paul Millsap"??

Being training camp has yet to begin, I don't think any of the starting roles have been earned or should be set in stone, with the possible exception of Mo Williams. We've brought in some good additions at the wing positions who should be given every opportunity to compete for starting spots, minutes etc. with our wings from last year.

Likewise, with young up and coming talent among our bigs, every one of them should be given an opportunity to show what they bring to the team this year over last. Some of these players are notorious for their off-season improvments and the condition is which they arrive in camp.

Others we have read reports about or maybe even had a chance to glimpse their progress. Favors and Hayward worked out, practiced and scrimmaged with the Olympic Team. Burks, Kanter and others played in the Summer League.

I would hope Corbin uses Training Camp and Pre-Season to take a look at a number of the line-ups we've discussed, then play the players where they best serve the team. I realize this is a tall order. You've got Big Al who makes a hefty salary, but whom many have suggested may be better utilized coming off the bench where he can dominate on the offensive end, be the focal point, go to guy on with the second unit, then, guard less polished players on the defensive end. Likewise, you've got Favor's the young, up and coming, talanted player who showed he may be ready to explode in the play-offs last year. Then, you've got Milsap, who's improved every year, says he prefers to be a starter, and has done everything asked of him including moving to SF. Last but not least, you've got Kanter, who needs minutes if he's ever going to improve and realize his potential.

Last year one of the most effective units was with three of our bigs starting together with Al at Center, Favors at PF and Milsap at SF. This year Burks looks to have improved. Has he improved enough to start at SG while sliding Hayward to SF? Will this be effective given Hayward played much better at SG than he did at SF last year? What about Marvin Williams who started at the SF for the Hawks last year? Will he prove to be more effective with Hayward or Burks or better than both?

I'm excited because of all the talent we have and the options it gives us.

I can say IMO Milsap and Favors was better than Al and Favors last year and I suspect will be this year as well. As explained above, I think Al is better suited to coming off the bench than Milsap. Hayward played much better at SG than he did at SF last year, though he appears to have added some muscle, so who knows maybe this will change. Burks looked good in the Summer Games, but this was against inferior competition.

Until training camp and the preseason concludes with the players having shown what they bring to the table, I hope our Coaching Staff keeps an open mind and tries several options in order to find the most effective, then, is able to communicate to the players why they are doing what they are doing, for the team's success.

Well I think one thing that Corbin and his staff has talked about, was just winning. Doesn't matter what combination, but whatever works. So I think that will happen.

One thing I think is somewhat not addressed, is although Paul may be a better player than Derrick right now, it doesn't mean he should necessarily start due to the other players out there and what they bring. For example, John and Karl and the pick and roll. John was extremely effective running a pick and roll with players that were good at rolling. So say we had Barkley and Malone. Alot of people say Barkley was a better PF than Karl(especially Barkley heh). But since Johnny was lethal running a pick and roll, you can bet Karl would start with him just because both of them are more effective together than maybe Barkley who could of been a better PF vs Karl. So now we have Derrick, who maybe isn't as good a player as Paul yet, but his skills along with Al's skills are more effective. Thats why I think Fav and Al should start.

Also, this talk about Al coming off the bench. I think it's crazy talk. I look at Al Jeff much like I look at Dirk on the court. Dirk is a horrible defender, HORRIBLE. Worse than Al. And he doesn't even come close to rebounding as well, and zero blocked shots. But has he ever, EVER been mentioned as coming off the bench? No? Right, because he can score on anyone, Dallas needs that and he does it consistently. Al is the exact same way! For example, last 4 years starting with last year:

Dirk: 21ppg 6.7rebs 45%fg 23ppg 7rebs 51% 25ppg 8rebs 48% 26ppg 8rebs 48%
Al: 19ppg 9.6rebs 49%fg 19ppg 10rbs 49% 17ppg 9rebs 50% 23ppg 11rebs 50%.

Thats all while Dirk had a great PG, Al took less shots, and of course Al avg'd twice as many blocks, and less turnovers. Dirk gets buckets whenever he wants, but Al also gets buckets on whoever he wants. Every team needs a guy that can get buckets. And you just put players next to a guy like Dirk, who can mitigate his defensive shortcomings (Tyson Chandler/Derrick Favors). And that spelled championship. Just like in Dallas, Al is our guy that can get buckets. And he's a better defender than Dirk.

Mutangclan wrote:

Well I think one thing that Corbin and his staff has talked about, was just winning. Doesn't matter what combination, but whatever works. So I think that will happen.

One thing I think is somewhat not addressed, is although Paul may be a better player than Derrick right now, it doesn't mean he should necessarily start due to the other players out there and what they bring. For example, John and Karl and the pick and roll. John was extremely effective running a pick and roll with players that were good at rolling. So say we had Barkley and Malone. Alot of people say Barkley was a better PF than Karl(especially Barkley heh). But since Johnny was lethal running a pick and roll, you can bet Karl would start with him just because both of them are more effective together than maybe Barkley who could of been a better PF vs Karl. So now we have Derrick, who maybe isn't as good a player as Paul yet, but his skills along with Al's skills are more effective. Thats why I think Fav and Al should start.

Also, this talk about Al coming off the bench. I think it's crazy talk. I look at Al Jeff much like I look at Dirk on the court. Dirk is a horrible defender, HORRIBLE. Worse than Al. And he doesn't even come close to rebounding as well, and zero blocked shots. But has he ever, EVER been mentioned as coming off the bench? No? Right, because he can score on anyone, Dallas needs that and he does it consistently. Al is the exact same way! For example, last 4 years starting with last year:

Dirk: 21ppg 6.7rebs 45%fg 23ppg 7rebs 51% 25ppg 8rebs 48% 26ppg 8rebs 48%
Al: 19ppg 9.6rebs 49%fg 19ppg 10rbs 49% 17ppg 9rebs 50% 23ppg 11rebs 50%.

Thats all while Dirk had a great PG, Al took less shots, and of course Al avg'd twice as many blocks, and less turnovers. Dirk gets buckets whenever he wants, but Al also gets buckets on whoever he wants. Every team needs a guy that can get buckets. And you just put players next to a guy like Dirk, who can mitigate his defensive shortcomings (Tyson Chandler/Derrick Favors). And that spelled championship. Just like in Dallas, Al is our guy that can get buckets. And he's a better defender than Dirk.

Yet, we've also seen stats indicating Milsap and Favors out performs Al and Favors. So, if arguing Big Al coming off the bench is crazy talk, then, talk of Milsap coming off the bench must be simply ridiculous.

Sorry Mutang, I couldn't resist trying to lighten up our discussions a little.

In reality, you seem to have solid discussions with virtually everyone, both those you agree with and those you differ with. This is what makes this board fun and interesting to be a part of.

ptaz66 wrote:

Yet, we've also seen stats indicating Milsap and Favors out performs Al and Favors. So, if arguing Big Al coming off the bench is crazy talk, then, talk of Milsap coming off the bench must be simply ridiculous.

Sorry Mutang, I couldn't resist trying to lighten up our discussions a little.

In reality, you seem to have solid discussions with virtually everyone, both those you agree with and those you differ with. This is what makes this board fun and interesting to be a part of.

Hey, good for me, I'm always light! On here a bit too much, but still, always light!

But, can we really take anything seriously when looking at stats involving Favors yet? This year we will tell, but up until this point, I'm not sure you can look at anything so far as crystal ball stuff. Favors and Paul played with the second units, we've never had a good PG for this team etc. So many intangibles. And I'll be the first to say, most of my talk is about what could/should/I think will happen once training camp is underway.

Alot of my comparisons between Al and Paul starting is simply that Al can get his own shot successfully. Paul not so much.

Mutangclan wrote:

Thats all while Dirk had a great PG, Al took less shots, and of course Al avg'd twice as many blocks, and less turnovers. Dirk gets buckets whenever he wants, but Al also gets buckets on whoever he wants. Every team needs a guy that can get buckets.

That is my point as well. I'm seriously blown away sometimes by the lack of love for Big Al in Jazzland. He had a borderline All-star season because he gets buckets, rebounds and blocks! To pick apart his D is ridiculous given he scores on anyone trying to guard him. I love Milly, but he ain't ever going to score like Al night in and night out. There is room for all three, (Favors, Milly, Al) and some excellent combinations for Corbin to refine, but Al has to start, period.

MTJazz wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Thats all while Dirk had a great PG, Al took less shots, and of course Al avg'd twice as many blocks, and less turnovers. Dirk gets buckets whenever he wants, but Al also gets buckets on whoever he wants. Every team needs a guy that can get buckets.

That is my point as well. I'm seriously blown away sometimes by the lack of love for Big Al in Jazzland. He had a borderline All-star season because he gets buckets, rebounds and blocks! To pick apart his D is ridiculous given he scores on anyone trying to guard him. I love Milly, but he ain't ever going to score like Al night in and night out. There is room for all three, (Favors, Milly, Al) and some excellent combinations for Corbin to refine, but Al has to start, period.

I'm seriously blown away sometimes by the lack of love for <b>Milsap</b> in Jazzland. He had a borderline All-star season because he gets buckets, rebounds and <b>steals.</b> To pick apart his <b>being under-sized</b> is ridiculous given he <b>steals from everybody he guards.</b> I love <b>Big Al, but he ain't ever going to play like Milsap night in and night out.</b> There is room for all three, (Favors, Milly, Al) and some excellent combinations for Corbin to refine, but <b>Milsap</b> has to start, period.

The stats indicate both of these similiar paragraphs have merit. However, they also indicate the altered paragraph is the slightly more productive one. This is the neat thing about sports. We can discuss things from several veiwpoints with everyone having valid, yet differing opinions.

ptaz66 wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Thats all while Dirk had a great PG, Al took less shots, and of course Al avg'd twice as many blocks, and less turnovers. Dirk gets buckets whenever he wants, but Al also gets buckets on whoever he wants. Every team needs a guy that can get buckets.

That is my point as well. I'm seriously blown away sometimes by the lack of love for Big Al in Jazzland. He had a borderline All-star season because he gets buckets, rebounds and blocks! To pick apart his D is ridiculous given he scores on anyone trying to guard him. I love Milly, but he ain't ever going to score like Al night in and night out. There is room for all three, (Favors, Milly, Al) and some excellent combinations for Corbin to refine, but Al has to start, period.

I'm seriously blown away sometimes by the lack of love for <b>Milsap</b> in Jazzland. He had a borderline All-star season because he gets buckets, rebounds and <b>steals.</b> To pick apart his <b>being under-sized</b> is ridiculous given he <b>steals from everybody he guards.</b> I love <b>Big Al, but he ain't ever going to play like Milsap night in and night out.</b> There is room for all three, (Favors, Milly, Al) and some excellent combinations for Corbin to refine, but <b>Milsap</b> has to start, period.

The stats indicate both of these similiar paragraphs have merit. However, they also indicate the altered paragraph is the slightly more productive one. This is the neat thing about sports. We can discuss things from several veiwpoints with everyone having valid, yet differing opinions.

Love that you grabbed the Millsap torch and ran with it taz, couldn't have said it better. Millsap has scored nearly as often but with much greater efficiency than Jefferson over the course of their careers.

Interesting goings on with the new CBA and Millsap. I think that all of the expiring contracts will be on the table for trades this season, but I've mad no secret of the fact that if anyone gets traded I think it should be Jefferson. He just makes by far the most sense, from a basketball standpoint, a money standpoint, and a this fans standpoint.

That being said, the one thing I am full agreement with Mu on is that I hope this group stays together all season unless something really awesome comes along. I like the makeup of this team, and I think they are being seriously overlooked this season.

And let it begin. Start 5, Fav or Paul. DFav says all the right things "dont care if I start, just want more minutes" etc, so thats good. But the debate is now in the open.....

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/print/765598266/The-next-big-thing-Utah-Jazzs-Derrick-Favors-looking-to-have-a-breakout-season.html

Mutangclan wrote:

And let it begin. Start 5, Fav or Paul. DFav says all the right things "dont care if I start, just want more minutes" etc, so thats good. But the debate is now in the open.....

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/print/765598266/The-next-big-thing-Utah-Jazzs-Derrick-Favors-looking-to-have-a-breakout-season.html

Man that's pretty impressive stuff and says a lot about who this kid really is don't care if he starts just wants more playing time on the floor that's all he care's about, takes a lot of pressure off of Corbin but the Kid has to be on the floor playing he just makes the Jazz a better team when he on the court. From what it sounds like the Kid has built up a lot of confidence in his game and is looking to have his best season ever I don't see how the Jazz will be able to keep this Kid off the floor, I also really like him working with Malone I think he has a lot to teach this Kid more than what people think.