Bad lineup vs. good lineup? Or is it all Foye's fault?

Yahoo's "10-Man Rotation feature is a kind of "True Hoop" lite, NBA-related link aggregator.

This week they have stories from Hoopspeak, "Utah's Lineup Madness" and Utah Sports Net-"Taking A Look At Some Of Utah’s Statistical Trends".

Now, we have all noticed, the last couple of games, that the starting lineups' entire role seems to be to run up a nice healthy deficit for the "second team" to rally against, usually successfully. And you all, like me, must have wondered "How the hell can these players, individually so great...ummm...so good...so, ah...adequate, be so bad collectively?

Hoopspeak's Jeremy Conlin has a number that might be relevant, and it points to Randy Foye:

Quote :

"... when he’s on the court, Utah scores 104.4 points per 100 possessions and allows 110.1 points per 100 possessions, for a -5.7 net. When he’s off the floor, those numbers flip – Utah scores 111.8 points/100 and allow 102.5 points/100, for a +9.3 net. Combine the two and Foye is costing Utah FIFTEEN POINTS per 100 possessions just by stepping on the court. That’s the difference between being the Heat and being the Bobcats.[i].

Ouch. How does he do it?? That's so bad it seems like you'd have to notice deliberate acts of sabotage or something. So it's all Foye's fault?? Not really, and it requires some cooperation from The Coach. Conlin goes to Basketball lReference to view the comparison in effectiveness between the various lineups Corbin has used. And, incredibly enough, ALL of the most-used lineups are negative in +/-. All of them. WTF??

In the USN article, Jacob Frankel also notes The Foye Effect, with an added suggestion I've heard here form time to time:

Quote :

How confusing can this be to Ty Corbin: play DeMarre Carrol more. It is really that simple. The offense is better with him on the court, the defense is better with him on the court, and the rebounding is better with him on the court. This isn’t some small sample size fluke either, he has played over 400 minutes. The Jazz’s 7.6 net rating with him playing would place 4th in the league and would be a hair behind the Knicks for third. The rebounding rate would lead the league and the free throw rate would be third. More DMC minutes would be a nice late Christmas present.

Between them, good reads that reinforce a lot the perceptions that have come out of that ground-breaking, insightful Jazz blog: JazzNation.

Including the non-technical but important coaching suggestion: Get your head out of your ass, Ty.

Real solid stuff troll.

This is the second year in a row ty has done this too, last year he was bailed out by injuries to bell, watson, and howard, but it appears he didn.t learn his lesson.

TheMagnus wrote:

Real solid stuff troll.

This is the second year in a row ty has done this too, last year he was bailed out by injuries to bell, watson, and howard, but it appears he didn.t learn his lesson.

Corbin takes a much to simplistic approach to his rotations. Randy shoots 3s at a good %, So Corbin puts him out there to stretch the court, but doesn't take into account the negatives from playing him. It's a freaking crime that DC isn't getting playing time.

Corbins time as the Jazz head coach is going to be short lived. Once KOC and Lindsey figure out that it doesn't matter what moves they make, as long as they have a head coach that doesn't have what it takes. I really like Corbin I have met him a couple of times, both many years ago, but he is a nice guy and I loved him as a player, but we need a real NBA head coach in here soon.

I think he will be a good head coach someday, but Utah isn't the place to learn on the job. There is a standard here and fans won't tolerate losing seasons, Especially when we have the guys to be a much better team than we are right now.

Our roster isn't perfect, but a good coach could get so much more out of this team than what we are getting.

Man I hate to say it but Corbin just is not getting the job done and it looks like he don't know how to do it, the way it is looking it could be time to make a change sorry to say.

dongibby wrote:

Man I hate to say it but Corbin just is not getting the job done and it looks like he don't know how to do it, the way it is looking it could be time to make a change sorry to say.

Yeah it sucks, because he is a good guy. He just isn't ready to be a NBA head coach.

Heres something to think about: Ty Corbin wasn't even the assistant coach before this, Phil Johnson was. Ty really needed to be the right hand man, before he was The Man.

Good stuff troll, and I'm sure you guys hate the I told you so's, but man, I've been saying it since last year, DC needs to play. Playoffs he got yanked for Josh Howard which was absurd, and more recently, the slide coincided with DC not getting the play.

Some other post has this, but I just, so, badly, want, Foye on the second unit I can't stand it!! Start DC, START DC, since he is the perfect compliment to the starting 5. Just keep repeating myself, but damn man!! Foye is a second unit guy, you bring in, hope he comes in hot, and hurts the other team. He's a Kyle Korver. Those guys should not start, they're one trick ponies. You need multi-skilled players to start.

And yes, I do think it's that simple to this teams success.
Oh, and I would like it if Ty would actually draw up a play for a last second shot. Or hey, even just sending a screener over for the shooter. Thats all.

Mutangclan wrote:

Heres something to think about: Ty Corbin wasn't even the assistant coach before this, Phil Johnson was. Ty really needed to be the right hand man, before he was The Man.

Good stuff troll, and I'm sure you guys hate the I told you so's, but man, I've been saying it since last year, DC needs to play. Playoffs he got yanked for Josh Howard which was absurd, and more recently, the slide coincided with DC not getting the play.

Some other post has this, but I just, so, badly, want, Foye on the second unit I can't stand it!! Start DC, START DC, since he is the perfect compliment to the starting 5. Just keep repeating myself, but damn man!! Foye is a second unit guy, you bring in, hope he comes in hot, and hurts the other team. He's a Kyle Korver. Those guys should not start, they're one trick ponies. You need multi-skilled players to start.

And yes, I do think it's that simple to this teams success.
Oh, and I would like it if Ty would actually draw up a play for a last second shot. Or hey, even just sending a screener over for the shooter. Thats all.

I agree about Ty and Foye. But, I wouldn't call Korver a one-trick-pony (his D is pretty good, and his offensive movement and screening is really good).

DC is worth a try as a starter. I'm sure, with Moe down, Ty is concerned about having enough offensive fire-pire to start the games. If Marv could step up a little on the offensive end (stretching the opponent's D), DC could be a penetration and mid-range threat (a la Evan Turner or Iguadala). And, Foye's +/- numbers might go up if he's playing against the other teams' benches.

Could someone find Kevin O'Connor's email address and send him this entire thread?

Here's a play that perfectly sums up my frustration with Foye, and really Jefferson too, but especially Foye.

So the Clips are running the pick and roll with Paul and Griffin, Jordan camps out on the opposite side of the hoop so when Jefferson falls asleep or goes to help they just throw it to the rim and he smashes it home. So Carroll does the right thing, they run the pick and roll, Jefferson does his usual half help routine and Carroll runs down and jumps in front of Jordan. Jefferson ends up completely out of position, Millsap is too far out on the hedge, Paul kicks it to Griffin on the roll, Carroll steps out and cuts off his drive giving Al a chance to get back, Blake skips the ball across court to Butler, Carroll runs ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE COURT to get back to a red hot Carron Butler...

Now here is were we pause the film...

Carroll actually got back across the court in time to run Butler off of his rythm, I have no idea how, but he did. The problem was he didn't know who he was supposed to guard because Foye was standing in no mans land, equidistant from his man (Green... we'll come back to this) and Butler, not close enough to challenge either of their shot..

Start the film again...

So Demarre naturally thinks Foye has rotated on to Butler and goes PAST Butler to Foye's man, but Foye doesn't move, he just stands there and watches Butler hit his gagillionth three of the quarter.

There are so many layers of wrong with this play...What the hell Foye?

You really couldn't leave Green, who was standing less than 10 feet away form the hottest shooter on the court, and in the time it took for a pass to travel from one side of the court to the other step over and get a hand up on him?

What the hell Foye?

Demarre Carroll had to run from the other side of the court, he covered 4 different guys on that one play, and you couldn't take two steps to help him out?

What the hell Foye, what the hell...

Trollificus wrote:

The Coach. Conlin goes to Basketball lReference to view the comparison in effectiveness between the various lineups Corbin has used. And, incredibly enough, ALL of the most-used lineups are negative in +/-. All of them. WTF??

In the USN article, Jacob Frankel also notes The Foye Effect, with an added suggestion I've heard here form time to time:

Quote :

How confusing can this be to Ty Corbin: play DeMarre Carrol more. It is really that simple. The offense is better with him on the court, the defense is better with him on the court, and the rebounding is better with him on the court. This isn’t some small sample size fluke either, he has played over 400 minutes. The Jazz’s 7.6 net rating with him playing would place 4th in the league and would be a hair behind the Knicks for third. The rebounding rate would lead the league and the free throw rate would be third. More DMC minutes would be a nice late Christmas present.

Between them, good reads that reinforce a lot the perceptions that have come out of that ground-breaking, insightful Jazz blog: JazzNation.

Including the non-technical but important coaching suggestion: Get your head out of your ass, Ty.

That so-o much resembles Bargnani story of Toronto, though with more complicated pattern. Coach "consistenly" sticking to "proper" but staistically losing patterns.

I'll add just one more word to the mix: Burks! Foye consistently screwing game is OK for Corbin, when Burks is being punishedfor anything.

Consistency - is best word to describe couch T.Corbin. He took that from Sloan and put on new incredible level.

At this point it's actually getting a little hillarious, even when Foye was red hot and blistering the nets for 28 against the clippers he still had the worst +/- on the team.

In the last three games since the articles that Troll posted were written, Foye has actually had the worst +/- on the team in EVERY game and his net on/off is now almost NEGATIVE 19!!!!

This isn't a small sample size issue, and it's not a "other 4 guys" issue either, putting Foye on the court at shooting guard makes the team worse. Period.

That is simply mind blowing, and it goes against the conventional basketball wisdom, which is why I think Corbin is completely missing the boat. The conventional wisdom says the Jazz need him to space the floor for the bigs, the conventional wisdom says that he doesn't look that bad so he can't be that bad, the conventional wisdom says that his veteran presence should make the Jazz better and not worse as a team.

The conventional wisdom is dead wrong. Like, the "world is flat" and "raping albino's cures AIDS" wrong.

If Foye stopped playing, and every one of his minutes went to Burks, Carroll, Marvin, and Hayward, the Jazz would instantly be 5 points better a game, they would go from being a lottery team to being the 5th or 6th best team in the west. That's not even a prediction, or an educated guess, that is a scientific fact.

TheMagnus wrote:

At this point it's actually getting a little hillarious, even when Foye was red hot and blistering the nets for 28 against the clippers he still had the worst +/- on the team.

In the last three games since the articles that Troll posted were written, Foye has actually had the worst +/- on the team in EVERY game and his net on/off is now almost NEGATIVE 19!!!!.

That is simply mind blowing, and it goes against the conventional basketball wisdom, which is why I think Corbin is completely missing the boat. The conventional wisdom says the Jazz need him to space the floor for the bigs, the conventional wisdom says that he doesn't look that bad so he can't be that bad, the conventional wisdom says that his veteran presence should make the Jazz better and not worse as a team.

Good formulation - "agains the conventional wisdom" . I didn't find, so tried to illustrate throug "Bargnani" word. And Toronto got God help on the issue , but Utah is in the limbo with no way out.

vryadli wrote:

Good formulation - "agains the conventional wisdom" . I didn't find, so tried to illustrate throug "Bargnani" word. And Toronto got God help on the issue , but Utah is in the limbo with no way out.

And the proof gets even deeper and the hypothesis more sure...

Foye was a negative factor in each of his last two seasons with the Clippers as well, which is especially astonishing since every other other Clippers starter was overwhelmingly positive.

You want a reason for the Clippers dramatic improvement this year? They replaced Randy Foye and Mo Williams with with Matt Barnes and Jordan Crawford. Let that soak in for a minute or two...

Overall the evidence is almost indesputable, Randy Foye does not help you win Basketball games, and replacing him with litterally any other player on the Jazz roster would produce better results.

TheMagnus wrote:

vryadli wrote:

Good formulation - "agains the conventional wisdom" . I didn't find, so tried to illustrate throug "Bargnani" word. And Toronto got God help on the issue , but Utah is in the limbo with no way out.

And the proof gets even deeper and the hypothesis more sure...

Foye was a negative factor in each of his last two seasons with the Clippers as well, which is especially astonishing since every other other Clippers starter was overwhelmingly positive.

You want a reason for the Clippers dramatic improvement this year? They replaced Randy Foye and Mo Williams with with Matt Barnes and Jordan Crawford. Let that soak in for a minute or two...

Overall the evidence is almost indesputable, Randy Foye does not help you win Basketball games, and replacing him with litterally any other player on the Jazz roster would produce better results.

The Jazz were down after the first quarter, but they were even in the first 6 minutes. Id like to see carroll start hayward at the 2. 2nd unit burks and williams.

I dont think mo williams should get any blame. Jamal Crawford is easily the best 6th man so far this year. He is 10 times more efficient than he has ever been. I still like Mo Williams.

therawns wrote:

The Jazz were down after the first quarter, but they were even in the first 6 minutes. Id like to see carroll start hayward at the 2. 2nd unit burks and williams.

I dont think mo williams should get any blame. Jamal Crawford is easily the best 6th man so far this year. He is 10 times more efficient than he has ever been. I still like Mo Williams.

I like Mo too, I actually think he has been good and getting better as the starting PG, but he was not that good for the Clips as a combo guard.

I'd like to see Carroll start too, but at the 2 with Marvin still at the 3. I think Hayward has been great off the bench and I think that sixth man roll really suits him.

And I don't really blame Foye either, he's just doing what he does, I put this all on Corbin.

I don't mind Foye as a sharp shooter off the bench, I really don't. I honestly think he is a good guy to have on the team and his contract isn't bad, I still think he was a solid signing, but I think it was Tang that pointed out that he's a one trick pony, and that is how he should be used. I still think he should get some run at point with the second unit too, especially with Williams out. Watson has been terrible on both ends so it couldn't hurt, and it would give more of the SG minutes to Burks and Demarre.

But those are limited roles with limited minutes, bottom line is that there is no way Foye should be playing a starters roll with starter minutes, and if it continues Corbin should be fired for it.

TheMagnus wrote:

therawns wrote:

The Jazz were down after the first quarter, but they were even in the first 6 minutes. Id like to see carroll start hayward at the 2. 2nd unit burks and williams.

I dont think mo williams should get any blame. Jamal Crawford is easily the best 6th man so far this year. He is 10 times more efficient than he has ever been. I still like Mo Williams.

I like Mo too, I actually think he has been good and getting better as the starting PG, but he was not that good for the Clips as a combo guard.

I'd like to see Carroll start too, but at the 2 with Marvin still at the 3. I think Hayward has been great off the bench and I think that sixth man roll really suits him.

And I don't really blame Foye either, he's just doing what he does, I put this all on Corbin.

I don't mind Foye as a sharp shooter off the bench, I really don't. I honestly think he is a good guy to have on the team and his contract isn't bad, I still think he was a solid signing, but I think it was Tang that pointed out that he's a one trick pony, and that is how he should be used. I still think he should get some run at point with the second unit too, especially with Williams out. Watson has been terrible on both ends so it couldn't hurt, and it would give more of the SG minutes to Burks and Demarre.

But those are limited roles with limited minutes, bottom line is that there is no way Foye should be playing a starters roll with starter minutes, and if it continues Corbin should be fired for it.

Haha, thats why I thought he'd be a very good PG for this team; he was never supposed to be a combo guard.

Yep, agree again, starting DC at the 2 with Marv, leave Gordo where he is, and where he is excelling.
When you're a guy that only does one thing well, you should be used as such.

I'm really starting to think that Ty Corbin with his use of Foye, and I guess AL, is a coach that can only see offense. He only sees that wow! Randy sure can stroke that 3!! But meanwhile, has no clue that Randy is getting torched at the other end every night. You'd think after CJ that Ty would see this.....

BUT!!! DC started last night, its a babystep, but still a step in the right direction. I think Ty may be going the sensitive route here and eventually will get the correct starting unit. Now lets get Randy on the second unit, especially now where we need a PG anyway, and he can go buckwhile there. Start DC and Marv.....come on Ty......you can do it.

TheMagnus wrote:

And the proof gets even deeper and the hypothesis more sure...

Foye was a negative factor in each of his last two seasons with the Clippers as well, which is especially astonishing since every other other Clippers starter was overwhelmingly positive.

Wow, that is really impressive set of evidence. And those mystical counterintuitive nedaative effects are always correlated with bad defense. If one doesn't have enough of brain or team spirit for hustle and effort on defense, that will translate in disruption of offence flow too, even if personal stats looks brilliant.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

therawns wrote:

The Jazz were down after the first quarter, but they were even in the first 6 minutes. Id like to see carroll start hayward at the 2. 2nd unit burks and williams.

I dont think mo williams should get any blame. Jamal Crawford is easily the best 6th man so far this year. He is 10 times more efficient than he has ever been. I still like Mo Williams.

I like Mo too, I actually think he has been good and getting better as the starting PG, but he was not that good for the Clips as a combo guard.

I'd like to see Carroll start too, but at the 2 with Marvin still at the 3. I think Hayward has been great off the bench and I think that sixth man roll really suits him.

And I don't really blame Foye either, he's just doing what he does, I put this all on Corbin.

I don't mind Foye as a sharp shooter off the bench, I really don't. I honestly think he is a good guy to have on the team and his contract isn't bad, I still think he was a solid signing, but I think it was Tang that pointed out that he's a one trick pony, and that is how he should be used. I still think he should get some run at point with the second unit too, especially with Williams out. Watson has been terrible on both ends so it couldn't hurt, and it would give more of the SG minutes to Burks and Demarre.

But those are limited roles with limited minutes, bottom line is that there is no way Foye should be playing a starters roll with starter minutes, and if it continues Corbin should be fired for it.

Haha, thats why I thought he'd be a very good PG for this team; he was never supposed to be a combo guard.

Yep, agree again, starting DC at the 2 with Marv, leave Gordo where he is, and where he is excelling.
When you're a guy that only does one thing well, you should be used as such.

I'm really starting to think that Ty Corbin with his use of Foye, and I guess AL, is a coach that can only see offense. He only sees that wow! Randy sure can stroke that 3!! But meanwhile, has no clue that Randy is getting torched at the other end every night. You'd think after CJ that Ty would see this.....

BUT!!! DC started last night, its a babystep, but still a step in the right direction. I think Ty may be going the sensitive route here and eventually will get the correct starting unit. Now lets get Randy on the second unit, especially now where we need a PG anyway, and he can go buckwhile there. Start DC and Marv.....come on Ty......you can do it.

I think Ty IS going to start DC AND Marv once Marv gets healthy. The Clips' Butler was a little too much for DC and Hayhay to handle. I like DC much more at the SG defensively and as a swing-capable SG-SF on offense. Likewise, Marv is a good SF defender and can stretch the floor as a SF offensively.

Saint Louis wrote:

I think Ty IS going to start DC AND Marv once Marv gets healthy. The Clips' Butler was a little too much for DC and Hayhay to handle. I like DC much more at the SG defensively and as a swing-capable SG-SF on offense. Likewise, Marv is a good SF defender and can stretch the floor as a SF offensively.

DC & Hayhay? Hayward barely guarded him, and the two of them didn't play together in that game.

I hope you are right though, that would go a long way to restoring my faith in Corbin.

This really made me sad....

Quote :

"I feel like without the Jazz I wouldn't even be in the position I'm in now for me to be able to display my talent to 29 other teams," said Carroll, who mentioned his impending free agency. "That's how I look at it. Whenever I step on the court, I'm not only playing for Utah, I'm playing for 29 other teams."

This came to light before Sunday's game against the Los Angeles Clippers when it was announced that Carroll would start for Marvin Williams, who was out with right knee inflammation.

...

"That's how it goes," Carroll said. "Until I can get to a team that really want to put me in a rotation, really want to play, I'll just take advantage of my opportunity whenever I get it."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865569686/Utah-Jazz-DeMarre-Carroll-conflicted-about-hit-and-miss-opportunities.html

Kind of pisses me off that he still feels like he's trying out, he's been one of the Jazz better players this year.

TheMagnus wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

I think Ty IS going to start DC AND Marv once Marv gets healthy. The Clips' Butler was a little too much for DC and Hayhay to handle. I like DC much more at the SG defensively and as a swing-capable SG-SF on offense. Likewise, Marv is a good SF defender and can stretch the floor as a SF offensively.

DC & Hayhay? Hayward barely guarded him, and the two of them didn't play together in that game.

I hope you are right though, that would go a long way to restoring my faith in Corbin.

2:34 to go in the 1st Q, Hay gets put in at SF, Butler hits a 3 on him right away. 9:19 3rd Q, Hay subs for Foye at SG, leaving DC to guard Butler. 3 minutes and 19 seconds later, Butler has scored 8 more points. I'm not ragging on Hay or DC, but, they couldn't control Butler. (Also by calling GH Hayhay: I'm not badmouthing him-- one of my favorite baseball players is Willie Mays, who could do just about everything, and was nicknamed "The Say Hey Kid.")

TheMagnus wrote:

This really made me sad....

Quote :

"I feel like without the Jazz I wouldn't even be in the position I'm in now for me to be able to display my talent to 29 other teams," said Carroll, who mentioned his impending free agency. "That's how I look at it. Whenever I step on the court, I'm not only playing for Utah, I'm playing for 29 other teams."

This came to light before Sunday's game against the Los Angeles Clippers when it was announced that Carroll would start for Marvin Williams, who was out with right knee inflammation.

...

"That's how it goes," Carroll said. "Until I can get to a team that really want to put me in a rotation, really want to play, I'll just take advantage of my opportunity whenever I get it."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865569686/Utah-Jazz-DeMarre-Carroll-conflicted-about-hit-and-miss-opportunities.html

Kind of pisses me off that he still feels like he's trying out, he's been one of the Jazz better players this year.

That is sad, but you can't blame him for feeling that way. He is on a one year contract, and no matter how well he plays, he is the first guy squeezed out of the rotation when any kind of change is made.

Personally, I like Marv, but would prefer to keep Carroll (signing him to a three year deal) and look to trade Marvin if a choice had to be made. DeMarre has shown to be just as effective, but at a much lower price. Hayward, Burks and Carroll (+ Sap) can carry the SF load. It seems like Williams is a short term Jazzman , and "is who he is". So why lose a guy like Carroll just to give minutes to a talented, but not better player, who makes a lot more money?

Again, I like Marvin, but I think keeping a guy like Carroll is important to the team.

Saint Louis wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

I think Ty IS going to start DC AND Marv once Marv gets healthy. The Clips' Butler was a little too much for DC and Hayhay to handle. I like DC much more at the SG defensively and as a swing-capable SG-SF on offense. Likewise, Marv is a good SF defender and can stretch the floor as a SF offensively.

DC & Hayhay? Hayward barely guarded him, and the two of them didn't play together in that game.

I hope you are right though, that would go a long way to restoring my faith in Corbin.

2:34 to go in the 1st Q, Hay gets put in at SF, Butler hits a 3 on him right away. 9:19 3rd Q, Hay subs for Foye at SG, leaving DC to guard Butler. 3 minutes and 19 seconds later, Butler has scored 8 more points. I'm not ragging on Hay or DC, but, they couldn't control Butler. (Also by calling GH Hayhay: I'm not badmouthing him-- one of my favorite baseball players is Willie Mays, who could do just about everything, and was nicknamed "The Say Hey Kid.")

Still not sure why you are including Hayward in that, but ok.

Butler had what was easily his best game of the season. DC is super active and overall a great defender, but like all super active defenders he is vulnerable to rythm shooters. He left Butler almost every time down the court to help and/or gamble on D and Butler made him pay for it. Part of the problem was that the Jazz other players, primarily Foye and Tinsley in the first quarter, didn't rotate for crap, I laid out a specific example of that that in an earlier post, and once a rythm shooter gets his rythm he's about 10 times better than he is normally until you take him out of that rythm, which the Jazz never did.

TheMagnus wrote:

Here's a play that perfectly sums up my frustration with Foye, and really Jefferson too, but especially Foye.

So the Clips are running the pick and roll with Paul and Griffin, Jordan camps out on the opposite side of the hoop so when Jefferson falls asleep or goes to help they just throw it to the rim and he smashes it home. So Carroll does the right thing, they run the pick and roll, Jefferson does his usual half help routine and Carroll runs down and jumps in front of Jordan. Jefferson ends up completely out of position, Millsap is too far out on the hedge, Paul kicks it to Griffin on the roll, Carroll steps out and cuts off his drive giving Al a chance to get back, Blake skips the ball across court to Butler, Carroll runs ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE COURT to get back to a red hot Carron Butler...

Now here is were we pause the film...

Carroll actually got back across the court in time to run Butler off of his rythm, I have no idea how, but he did. The problem was he didn't know who he was supposed to guard because Foye was standing in no mans land, equidistant from his man (Green... we'll come back to this) and Butler, not close enough to challenge either of their shot..

Start the film again...

So Demarre naturally thinks Foye has rotated on to Butler and goes PAST Butler to Foye's man, but Foye doesn't move, he just stands there and watches Butler hit his gagillionth three of the quarter.

There are so many layers of wrong with this play...What the hell Foye?

You really couldn't leave Green, who was standing less than 10 feet away form the hottest shooter on the court, and in the time it took for a pass to travel from one side of the court to the other step over and get a hand up on him?

What the hell Foye?

Demarre Carroll had to run from the other side of the court, he covered 4 different guys on that one play, and you couldn't take two steps to help him out?

What the hell Foye, what the hell...

My interpretation of your "What the Hell Foye?" play is that we wanted Green to shoot the ball, and what we didn't want was Butler to shoot. I don't think the Jazz defensive strategy was for DC to run all over the place guarding 4 different players. DC should have eliminated Butler (as best he could) and let the Jazz play the odds with us defending the rest of the Clippers (except for Green) so we can get a rebound and push it up. Foye was playing the passing lanes defensively, daring the Clips to go to Green. That's what the Jazz defense should have been doing. IMO, DC was playing all-out, but not playing how we wanted the Jazz defense to play. DC gets an A+ for effort, but an F for game plan execution. (Of course, I'm not on the coaching staff of the Jazz, and have no inside info on what the Jazz were actually trying to do defensively-- but, looking at it during the game and afterwords I think DC went a little off-system on this play.)

As for Hay's involvement in Butler's destruction of the Jazz, I think I presented enough info to show the Clips dismantled us from the SF position, and Hay and DC could not stop him. Without Moe and Marv, what else could we have done? I don't blame DC or Hay that we lost to the Clips for the 2nd of our back to back (after all the Clips have quite a lot in their arsenal). It just happened that the Clips exploited option C when CP3 and Blake Griffen played a realtively tame game. (Then again, Crawford didn't go off-- so maybe Hay can get some bonus pts. for good D against him.)

This thread is all over the place so much it's hard to figure where to start.

Corbin is pressing Run Offense at start to a fault. Thus Foye over Carroll (yeah yeah not the same position but humor me on not splitting hairs).

Foye should be situational but a) trade deadline value can't be knocked and b) it's hard to move away from post centric ball without shooters. Corbin might be hating playing Foye but doing it for the good of the organization. That's a hell of a coaching job (if my theory is correct).