There's Something About Marvin

I'm telling you: There is something about Marvin. I have missed a lot of games this year because of spending about half my time in SF Bay Area, but when I do catch the games, I am hard pressed to remember that Marvin even played. He is an invisible man out there, and I think it is because THE INTENSITY SIMPLY ISN'T THERE.

I know the Jazz' future got tied to Marvin's, but let's step back and take a deep breath and look at reality: The Junkyard Dog brings intensity and energy every time he hits the floor and Marvin does not. Marvin is now a classic case of a guy being played over another guy (the Junkyard Dog) simply because the team is hoping that their much larger investment in one player will pay off rather than because of earned results on the court. JMO.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

I'm telling you: There is something about Marvin. I have missed a lot of games this year because of spending about half my time in SF Bay Area, but when I do catch the games, I am hard pressed to remember that Marvin even played. He is an invisible man out there, and I think it is because THE INTENSITY SIMPLY ISN'T THERE.

I know the Jazz' future got tied to Marvin's, but let's step back and take a deep breath and look at reality: The Junkyard Dog brings intensity and energy every time he hits the floor and Marvin does not. Marvin is now a classic case of a guy being played over another guy (the Junkyard Dog) simply because the team is hoping that their much larger investment in one player will pay off rather than because of earned results on the court. JMO.

I tend to agree. Marvin is a guy who is good enough to get minutes, but shouldn't be starting for a decent team. Like you said, he just disappears. I'm fine with him getting 18-20mpg, but I've kinda given up on him actually making a difference for this team. It's too bad, cause I had relatively high hopes for him at the beginning the year. He has talent, but it just hasn't ever come all together for him.

I'm cool with the Jazz keeping him and then letting him walk at the end of the year, but if there is a team willing to give up something of value for him, I can't imagine the Jazz not taking a deal for him.

Well put Crunch. He gets a few buckets here and there, and since his defense isn't bad, you never notice him either. He stays with his man fine, doesn't mess up really, but then again, doesn't really do much on the other end.
I'd certainly like to see more DC. Man, that game last night was exactly the type of game DC would help this team. Actually, scratch that. DC would help this team every night.

Mutangclan wrote:

Well put Crunch. He gets a few buckets here and there, and since his defense isn't bad, you never notice him either. He stays with his man fine, doesn't mess up really, but then again, doesn't really do much on the other end.
I'd certainly like to see more DC. Man, that game last night was exactly the type of game DC would help this team. Actually, scratch that. DC would help this team every night.

Yep. Probably me and Troll were highest on Marv's potential for this year (we've been following him in Fantasy Leagues for way too long). This could/should have been a breakout year (finally) for Marv, but, it's been a great season for a 2nd round player for Marv. Unfortunately, Marv is supposed to be playing like an early lottery pick.

He doesn't suck, but he definitely doesn't dominate, either. He's not the focus of our offense, and not the focus of our defense, but, we still need more from him.

Yeah, Crunch, that's exactly what I've been telling my boy for a while now: Marvin is invisible.

Sometimes, when he hits a shot or comes up with the ball, it's kind of startling because I'd forgotten he was out there. He takes up space, I guess. He doesn't make a lot of shots...or miss a lot. His man doesn't go off for a lot of points usually...but he also doesn't come up with a lot of steals or blocks. He doesn't overcome his lack of stats with intangibles. He's just kinda out there. And if you look, you can see him.

Saint's correct in noting that I'd put him squarely into the "Unexpected-but-Predictable-Improvement" category, based on nothing more than the optimistic view that part of what had been preventing him from improving from "in the rotation" or "6th to 8th best player" category to "showing the skills that made him an acceptable 2nd OVERALL pick in the draft" category was the pressure of having been the 2nd OVERALL pick in the draft. Absent that pressure, he would blossom, becoming an inside/outside, offense/defense, multi-tool contributor!!

And it hasn't happened. And DC just makes it worse, because DC does NOT have the skills that would ever make anyone mistake him for a #2 OVERALL draft pick, but his disruptive, momentum-changing, non-stop hustle provides a stark contrast to Williams' smooth, blends-into-the-background style.

Too bad. But if we can't have the imaginary "potential to be the #2 OVERALL pick" contribution of the "Williams that never will be", we should not deprive the team of what we DO have.

DC needs to be on the floor more, not taking a whole lot of juimpers, but definitely making a substantial contribution that Marvin just won't ever give us.

In that nice win over the Bucks, when the Jazz actually played to their strengths all night, Mr. Williams had a stunningly bad line of 21 minutes, 1 rb and 3 pts. Ick, talk about a guy just taking up space! Granted, the Jazz are a little thin at the 3 with Gordo out, and DC did get good tick finally, but man, there definitely is something about Marv. Too bad the Jazz have no call on whether he eats them up for $8MM next year. Perhaps he can be part of an off-season trade where he is the salary dump? Hard to think Marv has much more than a $2-3 MM a year future in this league.

MTJazz wrote:

In that nice win over the Bucks, when the Jazz actually played to their strengths all night, Mr. Williams had a stunningly bad line of 21 minutes, 1 rb and 3 pts. Ick, talk about a guy just taking up space! Granted, the Jazz are a little thin at the 3 with Gordo out, and DC did get good tick finally, but man, there definitely is something about Marv. Too bad the Jazz have no call on whether he eats them up for $8MM next year. Perhaps he can be part of an off-season trade where he is the salary dump? Hard to think Marv has much more than a $2-3 MM a year future in this league.

It is definitely too bad, he looked like a completely different player at the beginning of the season and pre-season, getting after it, running the court, shooting with confidence. I'm pretty sure he's been batting the same ongoing knee issues that forced him to sit a couple games. I think he's played a bit better since the Jazz had that long break, and the fact that he laid this stinker just two days after logging 41 minutes against the Kings adds to my suspitions. I think the All-Star break will do him some good.

I still think Marvin adds value even when he's not contributing to the box score though (maybe not $8 Million worth of value, but more than nothing), and I hope he can get back to his early season form. He's a solid defender, and the fact that he almost completely dissapears on the court when he isn't contributing to the box score means that at least he isn't doing bad stuff to make you notice him, which is more than you can say for most of the other guys on this team.

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

Romoholic wrote:

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

So, if your are King do you re-sign Foye for 3 yrs and $9MM? Unfortunately he is now on other team's radar as a role playing 3-point specialist, not unlike Korver (3 yrs $15MM).

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

So, if your are King do you re-sign Foye for 3 yrs and $9MM? Unfortunately he is now on other team's radar as a role playing 3-point specialist, not unlike Korver (3 yrs $15MM).

I'd like to have Foye back. His ability to knock down the three ball is a valuable weapon. My hope would be to resign him to a reasonable 2-3 year deal, and have him come off the bench for 20ish minutes a game. Ride him when he's hot, sit him when he's not.

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

So, if your are King do you re-sign Foye for 3 yrs and $9MM? Unfortunately he is now on other team's radar as a role playing 3-point specialist, not unlike Korver (3 yrs $15MM).

I make him a decent offer for sure. The Jazz CAN NOT go back to bottom of the league in three point shooting. Marvin hasn't really been consistent three point shooter. Mo is decent when he his healthy, But Randy is set to destroy every three point shooting record in Jazz history. You have to keep a guy like that. I also don't really like the comparisons to Korver. Foye does a lot of other things besides shooting 3s, Kyle didn't

Romoholic wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

So, if your are King do you re-sign Foye for 3 yrs and $9MM? Unfortunately he is now on other team's radar as a role playing 3-point specialist, not unlike Korver (3 yrs $15MM).

I make him a decent offer for sure. The Jazz CAN NOT go back to bottom of the league in three point shooting. Marvin hasn't really been consistent three point shooter. Mo is decent when he his healthy, But Randy is set to destroy every three point shooting record in Jazz history. You have to keep a guy like that. I also don't really like the comparisons to Korver. Foye does a lot of other things besides shooting 3s, Kyle didn't

For the sake of gentlemen's argument, exactly what extra does Foye bring that Korver didn't, and why did the free market pay Korver $15MM for 3 years last year? If Korver brings that much on the market, and you think Foye is better, isn't he worth more on the market and he knows it? Why would he stay on the Jazz at remotely close to his current salary? And, I am not a Foye guy at all, BTW. He is a great off the bench, light it up when he is on player on 3 balls, and little else.

This season:

Korver; 11.5 ppg, 0.464 on 3 balls, 4 RBs, 31.2 mpg
Foye: 11.9 ppg, , 0.433 on 3 balls, 1.5 RBs, 27.8 mpg

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

So, if your are King do you re-sign Foye for 3 yrs and $9MM? Unfortunately he is now on other team's radar as a role playing 3-point specialist, not unlike Korver (3 yrs $15MM).

I make him a decent offer for sure. The Jazz CAN NOT go back to bottom of the league in three point shooting. Marvin hasn't really been consistent three point shooter. Mo is decent when he his healthy, But Randy is set to destroy every three point shooting record in Jazz history. You have to keep a guy like that. I also don't really like the comparisons to Korver. Foye does a lot of other things besides shooting 3s, Kyle didn't

For the sake of gentlemen's argument, exactly what extra does Foye bring that Korver didn't, and why did the free market pay Korver $15MM for 3 years last year? If Korver brings that much on the market, and you think Foye is better, isn't he worth more on the market and he knows it? Why would he stay on the Jazz at remotely close to his current salary? And, I am not a Foye guy at all, BTW. He is a great off the bench, light it up when he is on player on 3 balls, and little else.

This season:

Korver; 11.5 ppg, 0.464 on 3 balls, 4 RBs, 31.2 mpg
Foye: 11.9 ppg, , 0.433 on 3 balls, 1.5 RBs, 27.8 mpg

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Romoholic wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

He is a solid defender and does bring something to the table, I really thought he was our second best pickup this off season after Mo, Foye was kind of an afterthought to me. Turned out Foye was our best off season move. I was kinda expecting more from Marvin with Gordo out, But Foye, Burks and DC have been the guys stepping up.

So, if your are King do you re-sign Foye for 3 yrs and $9MM? Unfortunately he is now on other team's radar as a role playing 3-point specialist, not unlike Korver (3 yrs $15MM).

I make him a decent offer for sure. The Jazz CAN NOT go back to bottom of the league in three point shooting. Marvin hasn't really been consistent three point shooter. Mo is decent when he his healthy, But Randy is set to destroy every three point shooting record in Jazz history. You have to keep a guy like that. I also don't really like the comparisons to Korver. Foye does a lot of other things besides shooting 3s, Kyle didn't

For the sake of gentlemen's argument, exactly what extra does Foye bring that Korver didn't, and why did the free market pay Korver $15MM for 3 years last year? If Korver brings that much on the market, and you think Foye is better, isn't he worth more on the market and he knows it? Why would he stay on the Jazz at remotely close to his current salary? And, I am not a Foye guy at all, BTW. He is a great off the bench, light it up when he is on player on 3 balls, and little else.

This season:

Korver; 11.5 ppg, 0.464 on 3 balls, 4 RBs, 31.2 mpg
Foye: 11.9 ppg, , 0.433 on 3 balls, 1.5 RBs, 27.8 mpg

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Don't really like the comparison. Different players, diferent styles, different positions, about the only think they have in common is that they can shoot three's. One thing about Korver is that he was awesome coming off that flex screen, people forget that he was absolutely deadly shooting that quick catch and shoot 18-20 footer that so many Jazz palyers have made a living on. Hayward likes that shot, but Foye is always looking for the three ball, I'm not saying that is a bad thing, just different.

Romoholic wrote:

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Funny, I actually disagree with all of this except for creating his own shot. And I think Korver is terrible at it, but Foye is only kinda terrible at it.
I always thought Korver was a very underrated defender, and screamed for him to be in there instead of CJ. And Foye really is a terrible defender. He'll get a block every so often, but he's always losing his man etc.
And Kyle was at least as good of a passer as Foye IMO. I think Foye tends to move with his head down when driving etc.

Mutangclan wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Funny, I actually disagree with all of this except for creating his own shot. And I think Korver is terrible at it, but Foye is only kinda terrible at it.
I always thought Korver was a very underrated defender, and screamed for him to be in there instead of CJ. And Foye really is a terrible defender. He'll get a block every so often, but he's always losing his man etc.
And Kyle was at least as good of a passer as Foye IMO. I think Foye tends to move with his head down when driving etc.

No way man! I think you might be forgetting the D Korver actually played. I think Foyes D is much better. He generally keeps his man in front of him pretty good, and is much better at help d. Either way, they don't have the same type of game so there is really not a comparison between the two.

Romoholic wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Funny, I actually disagree with all of this except for creating his own shot. And I think Korver is terrible at it, but Foye is only kinda terrible at it.
I always thought Korver was a very underrated defender, and screamed for him to be in there instead of CJ. And Foye really is a terrible defender. He'll get a block every so often, but he's always losing his man etc.
And Kyle was at least as good of a passer as Foye IMO. I think Foye tends to move with his head down when driving etc.

No way man! I think you might be forgetting the D Korver actually played. I think Foyes D is much better. He generally keeps his man in front of him pretty good, and is much better at help d. Either way, they don't have the same type of game so there is really not a comparison between the two.

Yeah there is - they make their living and pay check on 3-pt shooting. KK currently in the lead with respect to %. The point I was origonally making is KK got $15MM for 3 years out of Atlanta, and with Foye now considered and elite 3-baller, (and he sure wasn't earlier in his career!), there is no way the Jazz will be signing Foye for much than less that this summer, simply because some other team will consider that market value. I've warmed up to Foye as the season has progressed, (I thought he was a disaster early), but still think his natural role is a 6th man/instant offense off the bench, and I don't see the Jazz valuing him that greatly, in that role. Plus, I stand by my opinion he is a below average defender.

Romoholic wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Funny, I actually disagree with all of this except for creating his own shot. And I think Korver is terrible at it, but Foye is only kinda terrible at it.
I always thought Korver was a very underrated defender, and screamed for him to be in there instead of CJ. And Foye really is a terrible defender. He'll get a block every so often, but he's always losing his man etc.
And Kyle was at least as good of a passer as Foye IMO. I think Foye tends to move with his head down when driving etc.

No way man! I think you might be forgetting the D Korver actually played. I think Foyes D is much better. He generally keeps his man in front of him pretty good, and is much better at help d. Either way, they don't have the same type of game so there is really not a comparison between the two.

Nope, I was all about Korver, especially because of my well documented disgust with CJ. I was all over Tribtalk, saying how Korver is actually a decent defender. He shot the 3 ball, but if you watched him, he always gave 100%. He wasn't a slacker, didn't get caught watching, constantly took chargers etc. The guy was pretty slow, but would always get in to mix it up.

Watch Foye now, and I guess we'll disagree. He gets beat constantly, will lose his man, and absolutely is not 100% all the time. He's hands down a below average defender, while Kyle was just average. But for me, didn't matter how slow you were, as long as you always give 100%.

Foye will probably be resigned though, and i dont have a problem with it at all. As long as he is moved to 6th man that is... A few years, a few mill per. He just recently said too that he wants to stay in Utah. He is exactly what Utah was dying for last year, and it can't be understated. We'll really see how valuable he is in the playoffs.

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

For one thing he can pass the ball! He is a better defender, can create his own shot better and regardless of what the stats say, the 3s he hits are much more timely than what Korver provided for us.

Funny, I actually disagree with all of this except for creating his own shot. And I think Korver is terrible at it, but Foye is only kinda terrible at it.
I always thought Korver was a very underrated defender, and screamed for him to be in there instead of CJ. And Foye really is a terrible defender. He'll get a block every so often, but he's always losing his man etc.
And Kyle was at least as good of a passer as Foye IMO. I think Foye tends to move with his head down when driving etc.

No way man! I think you might be forgetting the D Korver actually played. I think Foyes D is much better. He generally keeps his man in front of him pretty good, and is much better at help d. Either way, they don't have the same type of game so there is really not a comparison between the two.

Yeah there is - they make their living and pay check on 3-pt shooting. KK currently in the lead with respect to %. The point I was origonally making is KK got $15MM for 3 years out of Atlanta, and with Foye now considered and elite 3-baller, (and he sure wasn't earlier in his career!), there is no way the Jazz will be signing Foye for much than less that this summer, simply because some other team will consider that market value. I've warmed up to Foye as the season has progressed, (I thought he was a disaster early), but still think his natural role is a 6th man/instant offense off the bench, and I don't see the Jazz valuing him that greatly, in that role. Plus, I stand by my opinion he is a below average defender.

I guess we can compare anyone to anyone-- as long as we realize certain players have different roles. Between KK and Foye: KK is a better "pure" shooter and comes off picks extremely well, Foye can create more and has a deeper range, IMO KK is a better defender overall (good against most SFs and SGs-- except for smaller, quicker SGs, where Foye is more useful), KK sets picks better, rebounds better, and has better overall fundamentals. But, it's important to note we rely on Foye now more than we ever relied on KK (I wish we would have relied more on KK when he was here).

It would be harder to compare Foye to Marv, other than to say Foye has helped us more. KK and Marv are more interesting to compare since they both mostly play SF nowadays. Marv is better on D against bigger SFs and help defense inside. KK is much more reliable at 3pt shots. Frankly, I wish we had KK rather than Marv. With Heyhey and Moe out, KK would be a great fill at SF with a starting Lineup of: Tinsley, Foye, KK, Millman, and Big Al.

In a few of the boring games I've made a point to watch nothing but Marvin on defense. Guy plays solid d and makes perfect rotations.

He's not being utilized to his strengths on offense either. His role has been to stand in the corner picking his nose. Corbin needs to run plays for him, like making the post entry pass and cutting baseline or running off several screens to catch and drive. At minimum he can wear his defender down by running a lot but Corbin has shown no interest in such plays.