Who should be traded: Millsap or Jefferson? Should they be traded?

Without a draft pick, the Jazz will need to use one of them to improve the team. And Favors has to start next season. So IMHO, one of them need to go.

Who do you think should be traded? Or is it wise to keep both?

The Jazz were dang good with Millsap at SF, so don't rule out starting all three of them.

But this is as good a time as any to restart this debate so I'll go on record with the same thing I always said over at the TT, if I'm trading anybody it's Jefferson.

First I just want to throw out a disclaimer; Just to be clear, I like Jefferson, he just had probably his best overall year as a pro, and was a top 10 Center in the NBA this season. His only real offensive weakness was passing the ball and this season he actually gave it a try and was surprisingly pretty good at it. Furthermore I'm not convinced that the Jazz get better by trading him, so I'm actually on the fence as to whether the Jass should really try to do it. Why not just let him play out his contract and then walk? All that being said....

He's still a terrible defender, and he likely always will be. He's basicly the same size as Favors and Kanter, and with Favors looking more like Amare offensively and Kanter looking more like...well, Jefferson... combined with Millsaps versatility and willingness to do anything he's asked to do I think Jefferson is the one that is most expendable because filling the hole he leaves in the O shouldn't be a huge problem while filling the one he creates in the D provides the most upside.

And can we finally just put this whole "the Jazz need to be bigger to compete" nonsense to bed once and for all? You take a look at the teams that are left and you will find that their tallest guys are barely playing. KG is playing C for the Celtics next to Brandon Bass, for the Spurs Diaw is starting next to Duncan and being backed up by Matt Bonner, the Thuner's best lineups have Ibaka at C and Durant playing PF, and the Heat feature Udonis Haslem and Chris Bosh with Lebron and some spot minutes for Joel Anthony. You don't need two or three 7 footers to be elite, you just need bigs that can physically defend the paint.

TheMagnus wrote:

The Jazz were dang good with Millsap at SF, so don't rule out starting all three of them.

But this is as good a time as any to restart this debate so I'll go on record with the same thing I always said over at the TT, if I'm trading anybody it's Jefferson.

First I just want to throw out a disclaimer; Just to be clear, I like Jefferson, he just had probably his best overall year as a pro, and was a top 10 Center in the NBA this season. His only real offensive weakness was passing the ball and this season he actually gave it a try and was surprisingly pretty good at it. Furthermore I'm not convinced that the Jazz get better by trading him, so I'm actually on the fence as to whether the Jass should really try to do it. Why not just let him play out his contract and then walk? All that being said....

He's still a terrible defender, and he likely always will be. He's basicly the same size as Favors and Kanter, and with Favors looking more like Amare offensively and Kanter looking more like...well, Jefferson... combined with Millsaps versatility and willingness to do anything he's asked to do I think Jefferson is the one that is most expendable because filling the hole he leaves in the O shouldn't be a huge problem while filling the one he creates in the D provides the most upside.

And can we finally just put this whole "the Jazz need to be bigger to compete" nonsense to bed once and for all? You take a look at the teams that are left and you will find that their tallest guys are barely playing. KG is playing C for the Celtics next to Brandon Bass, for the Spurs Diaw is starting next to Duncan and being backed up by Matt Bonner, the Thuner's best lineups have Ibaka at C and Durant playing PF, and the Heat feature Udonis Haslem and Chris Bosh with Lebron and some spot minutes for Joel Anthony. You don't need two or three 7 footers to be elite, you just need bigs that can physically defend the paint.

I'm still not really on board with trading either. I think Al will resign for a lot less than he is making now. He loves it here and wants to win more than anyone on the team. Give Sap an off season to work on playing the 3 and I think he will be much better at it.

I mean why make a move when we have our 3, 4 and 5 position in place for years to come. Then fill out the roster around those guys. It just doesn't make much sense to me to get rid of guys to fill holes that we can fill through FA.

Romoholic wrote:

I'm still not really on board with trading either. I think Al will resign for a lot less than he is making now. He loves it here and wants to win more than anyone on the team. Give Sap an off season to work on playing the 3 and I think he will be much better at it.

I mean why make a move when we have our 3, 4 and 5 position in place for years to come. Then fill out the roster around those guys. It just doesn't make much sense to me to get rid of guys to fill holes that we can fill through FA.

I think Al's contract is as big an issue as is the on-court stuff. Al Jefferson had an All star season, a GREAT season. He has very good skills: very good scorer, very good rebounder, very good shot blocker, now a good passer for a Center, very good teammate, and not reiterating but a dominant low post scorer. The guy is good. But he is slow on defense....

There are so many intangibles to this. I like the big three starting. Then again, would I like instead to have our big 3 be Favors, Paul, and Iguodala???? Uh, YES. I would love that. And with Philly making it known they need low post scoring, and Iggy still on the block, I'd love that. Something like that I could get on board with in a heartbeat. A starting PG, or big time SF like Iggy.....yea, I prefer that. Or included in a top 7 draft pick..... so many intangibles.

But, if we're just talking about who to trade, Paul or Al, I'm reversing course from last year. I say trade Al equally because of what type of player he is and his contract. Most of my switch is because of seeing that FAvors is ready. I'd like to see an Al trade turned into something great for the team.

Lets not forget how much of a black hole Jefferson is though. Most of the time when he is on the court the offense is stagnet. There isn't much ball movement because as soon as Jefferson gets it he's going to put up that little six foot push shot or whatever he does.

If the Jazz have an opportunity to get rid of Jefferson for an athletic 3 or 2 who can shoot the ball the need to pull the trigger. Favors can man the 5 spot and Millsap can man the 4. Get rid of Jeffersons ball hoggin a**!

If we did have to make a trade it is obvious the choice would have to be Jefferson. Millsap is much more complimentary to Favors then Jefferson is. If big Al is gone then Favors will for sure blossom.

TheMagnus wrote:

the Jass should really try to do it...because filling the hole he leaves in the O shouldn't be a huge problem while filling the one he creates in the D provides the most upside.

Good work!

I don't know anything about evaluating skills but I like both of their personalities, especially Millsap.

Subatomic wrote:

Lets not forget how much of a black hole Jefferson is though. Most of the time when he is on the court the offense is stagnet. There isn't much ball movement because as soon as Jefferson gets it he's going to put up that little six foot push shot or whatever he does.

If the Jazz have an opportunity to get rid of Jefferson for an athletic 3 or 2 who can shoot the ball the need to pull the trigger. Favors can man the 5 spot and Millsap can man the 4. Get rid of Jeffersons ball hoggin a**!

I dont agree here. First of all, he shot 50% on the season. That doesn't really make him a ball hog or black hole, so much as a good low post scorer. And we all saw him passing better than he ever has. I dont think black hole even comes close to describing him anymore.

And to the other, about Paul being a much more complimentary, I mean, Al is a low post scorer, but needs a guy that plays defense with him. Thats a good combo. If it's Paul and Favors, what kind of offense are we going to have??? Favors isn't quite a low post threat, he's got a couple things but.......

I dont know. I'm for trading Al too, but thinking now about the offense, we'd need Favors to show more offensive ability if Al is gone.......yikes.

Mutangclan wrote:

Subatomic wrote:

Lets not forget how much of a black hole Jefferson is though. Most of the time when he is on the court the offense is stagnet. There isn't much ball movement because as soon as Jefferson gets it he's going to put up that little six foot push shot or whatever he does.

If the Jazz have an opportunity to get rid of Jefferson for an athletic 3 or 2 who can shoot the ball the need to pull the trigger. Favors can man the 5 spot and Millsap can man the 4. Get rid of Jeffersons ball hoggin a**!

I dont agree here. First of all, he shot 50% on the season. That doesn't really make him a ball hog or black hole, so much as a good low post scorer. And we all saw him passing better than he ever has. I dont think black hole even comes close to describing him anymore.

And to the other, about Paul being a much more complimentary, I mean, Al is a low post scorer, but needs a guy that plays defense with him. Thats a good combo. If it's Paul and Favors, what kind of offense are we going to have??? Favors isn't quite a low post threat, he's got a couple things but.......

I dont know. I'm for trading Al too, but thinking now about the offense, we'd need Favors to show more offensive ability if Al is gone.......yikes.

You make some solid points but the Spurs shut down Jefferson in the playoffs. When Jefferson is on he is a great low post player, but when teams "D" him up he's somewhat worthless. The other guys on the team just stand around and watch him and wait for him to shoot. Look at how the team plays when Jefferson is on the bench with starters on the court. Its much more fluid and smooth. Better passing, better shot selection.

The other thing with Jefferson is he doesn't do anything better than what Millsap can already do. The exception to that is maybe rebounding, maybe. If this season taught me anything its that Millsap can be a go to offensive player and Favors is already a very good defensive player. Once his offensive game comes around he will be a beast in this league. Millsap and Favors are a much better combo IMO than Jefferson and Millsap.

Mutangclan wrote:

Subatomic wrote:

Lets not forget how much of a black hole Jefferson is though. Most of the time when he is on the court the offense is stagnet. There isn't much ball movement because as soon as Jefferson gets it he's going to put up that little six foot push shot or whatever he does.

If the Jazz have an opportunity to get rid of Jefferson for an athletic 3 or 2 who can shoot the ball the need to pull the trigger. Favors can man the 5 spot and Millsap can man the 4. Get rid of Jeffersons ball hoggin a**!

I dont agree here. First of all, he shot 50% on the season. That doesn't really make him a ball hog or black hole, so much as a good low post scorer. And we all saw him passing better than he ever has. I dont think black hole even comes close to describing him anymore.

And to the other, about Paul being a much more complimentary, I mean, Al is a low post scorer, but needs a guy that plays defense with him. Thats a good combo. If it's Paul and Favors, what kind of offense are we going to have??? Favors isn't quite a low post threat, he's got a couple things but.......

I dont know. I'm for trading Al too, but thinking now about the offense, we'd need Favors to show more offensive ability if Al is gone.......yikes.

My point on the complementary is based on the idea that with Paul the offense doesn't stagnate. It's not that Al is a black hole but because he is such a wonderful post player if he is not on his A game or the other teams defense crash hard on him or he gets a taller defender on him it always feels like the offense breaks down.

Paul will match Al on efficiency, in fact I think he'll be better since he's a better defender (Shot blocking is only part of being a good defender) Along side Favors the offense will flow and that's where I think it'll be better.

I say trade Al if KOC can replace him with an equal or better asset. Sounds simple, right? Nitpicking on D aside Big Al turned in a border-line All-star year, he is a stud in the post. So what team out there needs post scoring and is willing to give up their own stud wing, which the Jazz really need? Or what, trade for an OK guy and a draft pick? How would that last scenario help the Jazz where they need obvious help, which is at least 2 more guys who can hit an open jump shot with regularity? Plus, if the Jazz trade Al all of the sudden we need a backup PF/C, as its one Favors or Millsap ACL snap away from a train wreck season.

I say hang tight, let Al play out his contract, he is a huge team asset on the floor and he carried the Jazz many a night. Favors is NOT a proven post scorer yet and while I love Milsap he is not going to replace Al's offensive production in the paint. Jazz need wing help and I really doubt Al is going anywhere unless it upgrades in that department.

Subatomic wrote:

You make some solid points but the Spurs shut down Jefferson in the playoffs. When Jefferson is on he is a great low post player, but when teams "D" him up he's somewhat worthless. The other guys on the team just stand around and watch him and wait for him to shoot. Look at how the team plays when Jefferson is on the bench with starters on the court. Its much more fluid and smooth. Better passing, better shot selection.

The other thing with Jefferson is he doesn't do anything better than what Millsap can already do. The exception to that is maybe rebounding, maybe. If this season taught me anything its that Millsap can be a go to offensive player and Favors is already a very good defensive player. Once his offensive game comes around he will be a beast in this leagues . Millsap and Favors are a much better combo IMO than Jefferson and Millsap.

Yea, but you can't possibly compare anything to the Spurs. They won 20 in a row, and shutdown everybody, including the Thunder in their first two games. And just because the Jazz are absolutely horrible outside shooting, how is that Als fault??? Its not. Also, the young Jazz in the playoffs against the vaunted Spurs??? Too many intangibles against Al and the Jazz......And theres another side of that, for offense; when Al isn't in there, their is no absolute threat to score, nobody that can get their own shot. Thats huge. So yea, it's more fluid with more passing, but only because it has to be---they have no guy who can get his own shot. Better shot selection??? I dont know, IF they move the ball well enough, then maybe one of those Jerry layups. But its pretty tough. Paul Millsap is a go-to offensive player???? Man, I dont know about that. IMO, Paul has needed Al to draw attention away and out of the key so Paul can work. If there is someone in there that is NOT a huge low-post threat like Al, then Paul struggles. Just look at the year before with the Fakers.

Comparing the two, I think Al consistently gets the short end of the stick. He's not only a better rebounder. Paul is a great player, I love him, but did you know that Al got twice as many blocks also? That Paul had twice as many turnovers? And for how bad of a passer Al is, and how good a passing big man Paul is, did you know they averaged the exact same amount of assists this past year?????

MTJazz, I think you're on it. What Al brings, really wont be replaced. So we'd need a guy like Iggy to come in and bring something other assets. Otherwise, its too tough to replace a guy like Al.

Sorry guys, but I'm in the opposite side here.
Big Al and Milsap are good players but they would never accept the bench role.
I will say it again: The Jazz's future frontcourt is Favors and Kanter.
So Big Al and Milsap are both expendable.
As much I like Milsap, I think he is the most valuable, and Jazz can get a better return trade him than Big Al. Otherwise Big Al will give them a strong relief in the pay roll next season and I believe he is the heart of Jazz offense. Jazz will have a hard time replacing Big Al scoring numbers.
So, my plan is: Shop both harder in the offseason and bring the best return for one of them. Keep the other one and let his contract expires next summer.

Another point: Devin Harris should go too. I see Jazz going nowhere with Harris as a PG.

Just finally read this thread...thoughtful, intelligent points, respectful tone....and I'm all, like, WTF??

Anyway, some points:

0) The "size" thing is not so much about the best lineup and being competitive as it is about sheer numbers. We trade, say, AL. For a wing. Or a wing and a prayer. Anyway, we then have Favors and Kanter, with the 6'6" Millsap our only other "big", unless you count Evans, who, just like Thurl Bailey and AK before him, did not put on the promised 15-20 pounds in the off season. Again. That's it. An injury. Foul trouble. Anything goes wrong and you are one more "thing going wrong" from seeing how SF Paul Millsap does as a center. You may not need size to win, but not enough size can cause you to lose.

1) One thing Jefferson can do that Millsap has trouble with, and that's being a go-to guy in close games. Millsap CAN BE DEFENDED, in our offense. He has NOT shown he can be a go-to guy. He'll always get hustle points, putbacks and should get more fast break opportunities, but you can't go to him when you need a basket. His drives to the hoop and to get open jumpers aren't a natural part of his game. I'm very impressed he's improved as much as he has, but... Jefferson, OTOH, can score with guys on him no matter how stagnant the offense has become. It's crazy. He's not really better than Millsap, but he can score on demand.

2a) The thinking on who should be traded should be based on who can bring the best return, and not on any argument about who's "better" or who we like more.
2b) The other things that should be considered are both intangible (locker room presence/team chemistry, complementarity with other players' skills ON the court, etc) and tangible (effect on the team's salary-cap status, depth at the position or duplication of skills).

3) Given all that, I say it's too late to trade either one of them (it's after 1AM!!), we should do a draft-sign-and-trade for Lillard (for the trade exception?), get a veteran 3-pt shooter with the MLE, hope the Hayward/Burks/Korver/Millsap combo covers the 2/3 positions and re-sign Fes for a fifth "big".

We can go to war with that team. I know it doesn't have the dramatic TMZ punch that finding a big-time FA would pack, but "internal improvement" is more likely to occur than not with this roster. Also hope Evans can develop into more of a defensive player than just a shotblocker. Also would like Zhang Zhiyi to come ans sit on my lap. I do have a check for a million dollars ready just in case.

Also IV) The so-called big man "logjam" exists only because all four of our bigs are GOOD. It's 96 minutes/game of solid C/PF play. It's an advantage that other teams don't have, and we'd be foolish to give it up. Favors has got to get his 30++, but if Jefferson loses a few minutes and Millsap loses a few AND plays SF some, the minutes are there.

The Jazz need-
An elite PG
An elite SF/SG
A very good PF/C
A decent PF/C
Bell, Harris, Big Al or Millsap may or may not be the ones to lift the Jazz to the next level.
Whatever combination it takes to get the four needs will determine if the Jazz move Big Al, Millsap, both or neither.
The most important thing to remember that all four of these guys I mentioned will be over with their contracts this time next year.
I say get the four needs one by one and don't just move someone for the sake of moving someone.
The exception would be Raja, it's time for him to move on.
My dream would be Dragic, Illyasova, Granger by FA, trade (even using Jazz/GS draft picks if neccesary) to start.

rorybreaker wrote:

The Jazz need-
An elite PG
An elite SF/SG
A very good PF/C
A decent PF/C
Bell, Harris, Big Al or Millsap may or may not be the ones to lift the Jazz to the next level.
Whatever combination it takes to get the four needs will determine if the Jazz move Big Al, Millsap, both or neither.
The most important thing to remember that all four of these guys I mentioned will be over with their contracts this time next year.
I say get the four needs one by one and don't just move someone for the sake of moving someone.
The exception would be Raja, it's time for him to move on.
My dream would be Dragic, Illyasova, Granger by FA, trade (even using Jazz/GS draft picks if neccesary) to start.

I agree with your needs list. However, my concern with a trade is we already have some of these needs covered.

Very Good PF/Center = Jefferson
Good PF/Center = Favors
Good possibly Elite SF = Milsap ??

We need an elite SG and and elite PG.

I think Hayward becomes a really good if not elite SG. This leaves PG as the main focus in my mind. Kanter is not ready to replace Jefferson and I already consider Favors as a starter. Hence, I'd say we keep both Jefferson and Milsap, then look to free agency or a trade using CJ Miles, Harris, and Evans, and possibly draft picks.

I guess in would like to see neither traded in the off season. I would like to see Millsap at SF after a whole off season really working on it and at least half a season with consistent minutes there.

If we have to trade one, I'd say trade Al.

rorybreaker wrote:

The Jazz need-
An elite PG
An elite SF/SG
A very good PF/C
A decent PF/C
Bell, Harris, Big Al or Millsap may or may not be the ones to lift the Jazz to the next level.
Whatever combination it takes to get the four needs will determine if the Jazz move Big Al, Millsap, both or neither.
The most important thing to remember that all four of these guys I mentioned will be over with their contracts this time next year.
I say get the four needs one by one and don't just move someone for the sake of moving someone.
The exception would be Raja, it's time for him to move on.
My dream would be Dragic, Illyasova, Granger by FA, trade (even using Jazz/GS draft picks if neccesary) to start.

The Jazz have two, probably three borderline elite PF/C in Millsap, Jefferson and Favors.

I dissagree that they need both an Elite PG and an Elite SG. There are a lot of ways to skin the "Big 3" cat, as evidenced by the remaining teams in the playoffs. Bostons big 3 is PG, SF, C. Miami's is SG, SF, PF/C. San Antonio's is PG, SG, C. Oklahoma's is PG, SG, SF.

I think the Jazz definitely an elite PG or an elite wing, but with the rest of this solid cast of youngsters I don't think they need both. Here's the problem though, none of those 3 guys you listed fit the bill. Dragic is a very good PG but not elite, I'm not sure why you really want Illyasova with all of the talent we have at PF, and while Iggy is a great player and elite in many ways, he has repeatedly demonstrated that he's not a go to guy offensively and he hardly fits the mold of an elite player at his position.

As far as I can tell, the only elite player that the Jazz have any chance of landing in free agency is Steve Nash, and who knows how much longer he continues to be elite.

If we are dreaming then the guy I want is Deron Williams. The Jazz would have to give up Jefferson to make it work, and Williams would have to agree to come back to Utah, but you add D-Will to this crew and this is a 50+ win team. While we're dreaming, and since the Nets apparently only trade for guys with expiring contracts (seriously, they gave up the 6th pick in this draft for 1.5 years of Gerald Wallace!!!) why not throw in Harris for Wallace? Starting lineup Williams/Hayward/Wallace/Millsap/Favors with Watson, Burks, Carrol, and Kanter coming off the bench... That'd be worth the price of admission to watch.

Dreaming......which is why I think we go after Houston's 14 pick, or someone else. Most likely scenario for me, on Utah getting a star to this team, is also Dwill coming back.....and I dont think thats likely at all. However, Iggy does a ton of very very good things. Not to mention he's a great passing SF. He is star-status....
So we have to continue to build through the draft.

Mutangclan wrote:

Dreaming......which is why I think we go after Houston's 14 pick, or someone else. Most likely scenario for me, on Utah getting a star to this team, is also Dwill coming back.....and I dont think thats likely at all. However, Iggy does a ton of very very good things. Not to mention he's a great passing SF. He is star-status....
So we have to continue to build through the draft.

Hornets will entertain offers for 10th pick if someone also agrees to pick up Ariza or Okafor contracts Twitter

Hmmm, Al Jeff in there? Idk, thoughts?

Trevor Ariza + 10th pick for Okur TPE.

Ariza is not that bad and he fits Jazz need for a SF.

RookieJazz wrote:

Trevor Ariza + 10th pick for Okur TPE.

Ariza is not that bad and he fits Jazz need for a SF.

Oh hell yes. I really like the level of talent that will be available around #10. Ariza is overpaid but he'd be a nice player to have off the bench and his contract is only 2 years.

TheMagnus wrote:

RookieJazz wrote:

Trevor Ariza + 10th pick for Okur TPE.

Ariza is not that bad and he fits Jazz need for a SF.

Oh hell yes. I really like the level of talent that will be available around #10. Ariza is overpaid but he'd be a nice player to have off the bench and his contract is only 2 years.

If a trade for someone like Iggy couldn't be done, then this is the next best thing I've heard. Getting a top 10 pick & a player who can contribute & shoot the 3 isn't a bad exchange for the Memo exception.

I just wouldn't want a player like Ariza taking up cap space that causes the Jazz to not get a better player.

zero24gravity wrote:

If a trade for someone like Iggy couldn't be done, then this is the next best thing I've heard. Getting a top 10 pick & a player who can contribute & shoot the 3 isn't a bad exchange for the Memo exception.

I just wouldn't want a player like Ariza taking up cap space that causes the Jazz to not get a better player.

I think Cap space is less of an issue than burning the TPE. If we are going to get a guy like Nash or Dragic then we will have to do a sign and trade and the Okur TPE is likely the best way to make that happen. The cap space is less of a problem because the Jazz are in salary cap no-mans land...meaning they don't have enough cap room to sign a top tier free agent but they have plenty of room under the tax line to use their MLE or the Okur TPE to take on salary. Even if they added Ariza using the TPE they would still have their full MLE and the assets that they would have to use to get a player like Iggy, the expiring contracts of Harris, Millsap, and Jefferson.

If you're going to go out and spend 7.5 Million on a player, Ariza is not the guy you should be looking at. He's a mid-level player at best, but since his contract comes off the books before the young guys are due for extentions, I think it would be well worth eating that cost and getting a servicable player for a #10 pick in this years draft.