So...what finishing touches should KOC put on this roster?

outerspacefan wrote:

Green is the right guy. Call me crazy, but I prefer him over Hayward. Great attitude, toughness, shooting skills, good vision, good defender. Put some right coachin' on him and you probably have a beast wing in your hands.

You're crazy.

The coaching doesn't get much better than Pop.

I'd expect some backsliding if he came to the Jazz, but I think he'd still be a great adition to the bench.

Dang, Mu, I hate to be your personal parade-rainer, but the City of Utah is not really a "better sports market" than Atlanta*, and is certainly not perceived as such. Smith is also quoted in an AJC article as wanting to go to a market where he "can reach his potential both on the court and off". Not sure if we'd be on his "list" (like Dwight's list...all the superstars have a "list" nowdays).

But I'll give you Turiaf. I've always liked him, but he's not a great rebounder, more of a skill guy and shot blocker. But for the role of "5th Big", you're right, he'd be fine.

And I'm voting "HELL YES!" on Danny Green. The Jazz are going to be one of the most athletic teams in the league. People's heads will blow up. Also, Ellington should be a decent shooter (38% on 3s, 80% FTs), but now we're getting heavy with SGs...he'd be vying with Murphy for an end-of-the-bench spot.

*-well, in terms of fan support it is, but otherwise, not so much.

Ok, that wasn't the best wording ; let me rephrase it: Just continue right-coaching the guy and you probably...

Trollificus wrote:

Dang, Mu, I hate to be your personal parade-rainer, but the City of Utah is not really a "better sports market" than Atlanta*, and is certainly not perceived as such. Smith is also quoted in an AJC article as wanting to go to a market where he "can reach his potential both on the court and off". Not sure if we'd be on his "list" (like Dwight's list...all the superstars have a "list" nowdays).

And I'm voting "HELL YES!" on Danny Green. The Jazz are going to be one of the most athletic teams in the league. People's heads will blow up. Also, Ellington should be a decent shooter (38% on 3s, 80% FTs), but now we're getting heavy with SGs...he'd be vying with Murphy for an end-of-the-bench spot.

*-well, in terms of fan support it is, but otherwise, not so much.

Mmmm, damnit Troll, good points. And if Josh Smith is all about reaching his potential like Dwill is, then yea, not going to like coming here. However, his most vocal complaint and desire, was going to a team that competes and an organization that wants to win. Combine that with the crew we have, once here I think he'd like it. With that said, at this point its all my dreamy scenarios, and this should probably be tabled until Josh Smith/Utah Jazz are at least rumored in the same sentence. Damnit.

Mmmmm, good point Rawns. Actually, excellent point. Is Danny Green the SA version of Shandon Anderson??? Great coaching, putting him in the right spots. Dominant lowpost scorer, crazy smart PG, who also is lightening fast. A whole team that probably spaces itself on the court better than any other team in the league. I mean, Danny Green played in the perfect situation for a wing like himself. Utah isn't in that category. He's not going to have anything nearly as easy in Utah....I didn't even realize until today that Green has 4 NBA seasons under his belt. For some reason I thought he was a rookie last year. Mmm, he's done nothing until last year. Ugh. I'm not as excited now. San Antonio may have just made him look like a stud due to their system...

Btw, give me Hayward all day over Green. He'll be the better player.

TheMagnus wrote:

Here's how I'd hope the minutes would break down as it stands now...

PG: Williams (30), Harris (15), Tinsley/Watson (3)
SG: Burks (25), Harris (14), Hayward (9)
SF: Hayward (25), Millsap (10), Carrol (13)
PF: Millsap (22), Favors (26)
C: Jefferson (33), Kanter (10), Favors (5)

I'm putting it out there right now, 50 wins.

Favors not starting Magnus??? Still? I guess so. Burks starting? Love it. I want energy to start the games and he brings it. I think he's ready and could win MIP next year. Also I think he could be our guy that if he's hot, we can ride him all night long. (thats hot)
I like Harris coming in for either Mo or Burks though, thats good. Harris and Mo could be Dumars and Isiah....
Only thing I dont like is Kanter playing 10mins a night. I'm hoping he gets an opportunity to get more like 18-22 a night. Not sure if it's feasible on this team, but thats what I'd like to see.
You think Burks starts over Favors though?

Just saw this:

Bill Ingram, HOOPSWORLD:

I’m hearing some noise about Millsap being traded . . .and yes, I love the Mo Williams move. He’s better than Devin Harris . . .

Millsap's your boy Magnus, but you think with all this extension talk it's going to coincide with a sign and trade???? That would really be rough unless it was for another all star type.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Here's how I'd hope the minutes would break down as it stands now...

PG: Williams (30), Harris (15), Tinsley/Watson (3)
SG: Burks (25), Harris (14), Hayward (9)
SF: Hayward (25), Millsap (10), Carrol (13)
PF: Millsap (22), Favors (26)
C: Jefferson (33), Kanter (10), Favors (5)

I'm putting it out there right now, 50 wins.

Favors not starting Magnus??? Still? I guess so. Burks starting? Love it. I want energy to start the games and he brings it. I think he's ready and could win MIP next year. Also I think he could be our guy that if he's hot, we can ride him all night long. (thats hot)
I like Harris coming in for either Mo or Burks though, thats good. Harris and Mo could be Dumars and Isiah....
Only thing I dont like is Kanter playing 10mins a night. I'm hoping he gets an opportunity to get more like 18-22 a night. Not sure if it's feasible on this team, but thats what I'd like to see.
You think Burks starts over Favors though?

Just saw this:

Bill Ingram, HOOPSWORLD:

I’m hearing some noise about Millsap being traded . . .and yes, I love the Mo Williams move. He’s better than Devin Harris . . .

Millsap's your boy Magnus, but you think with all this extension talk it's going to coincide with a sign and trade???? That would really be rough unless it was for another all star type.

I don't see anyway you keep Al over Milsap. They are both very good players but we have seen Paul get better every single year he has been here. The main point is though that Milsap makes other players better Al does not. Milsap does whatever the Jazz ask of him, Al plays his game and the team has to play around that.

The Jazz have asked Paul to do so many different things over the years and he has always complied. He wants to be here and the Jazz owe it to him to do the right thing by him. Al wants to be here to and IF they feel they have to move one it should be Al.

Romoholic wrote:

I don't see anyway you keep Al over Milsap. They are both very good players but we have seen Paul get better every single year he has been here. The main point is though that Milsap makes other players better Al does not. Milsap does whatever the Jazz ask of him, Al plays his game and the team has to play around that.

The Jazz have asked Paul to do so many different things over the years and he has always complied. He wants to be here and the Jazz owe it to him to do the right thing by him. Al wants to be here to and IF they feel they have to move one it should be Al.

Sure, though I think Al showed he's in the conversation for top 5 centers in the league. He had an awesome season last year.......what do other teams want though Romo???? Say the Hawks offer Josh Smith and want Millsap, or Philly offers Iggy, or Memphis Rudy Gay etc and wants Millsap. We need a talented SF, and if they're elite/equal to Paul's value then do we just say no?
Paul is great, but this team isn't going to the Finals next year.

Mutangclan wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

I don't see anyway you keep Al over Milsap. They are both very good players but we have seen Paul get better every single year he has been here. The main point is though that Milsap makes other players better Al does not. Milsap does whatever the Jazz ask of him, Al plays his game and the team has to play around that.

The Jazz have asked Paul to do so many different things over the years and he has always complied. He wants to be here and the Jazz owe it to him to do the right thing by him. Al wants to be here to and IF they feel they have to move one it should be Al.

Sure, though I think Al showed he's in the conversation for top 5 centers in the league. He had an awesome season last year.......what do other teams want though Romo???? Say the Hawks offer Josh Smith and want Millsap, or Philly offers Iggy, or Memphis Rudy Gay etc and wants Millsap. We need a talented SF, and if they're elite/equal to Paul's value then do we just say no?
Paul is great, but this team isn't going to the Finals next year.

Yeah Al is probably top 5 offensively not defensively though.

I also get that Paul probably has more trade value than Al....What does that tell you. Paul is a better all around player. Al is miles better in the post, but Paul does everything you can ask of him and does it well.

I'm not saying we should trade Al. In fact I don't want to move either of them. I think they both play better with the other one on the court. I just don't see how we afford both of them and we will probably lose one in FA after this season. I would love to see Paul at the three Al at the 4 and Favors at the 5. We saw it work last season and it will work even better with Mo out there to stretch the floor.

I don't want to screw around with this team too much this offseason. We need one more shooter and lets see how it goes. Maybe Al takes less money to stick around after this season. I really see no reason to turn our main strength into a weakness by moving guys.

Just saw a tweet that rumored a Harris for Marvin Williams deal ..... not sure of the source.

Wouldn't love or hate it. Williams is athletic and can play SF/PF. He's also a deep threat, which would help.

Not sure if I'd want to pay him for 3 years and 7.5 million though. Maybe with a pick or 2 as well?

Also saw something about Utah and Hinrich, but that seemed like pure speculation.

I'm not gonna go for the "tower o' quotes" here, since you ALL have some good points...

But to address some of them:

a) Yes, Millsap has more trade value than AL at 7 mill/year. Al's at 14. He certainly isn't TWICE the player Millsap is, but that wasn't the question. Pair AL with a quality, athletic, BIG, derfensive PF, like, say...DERRICK FAVORS and his defensive deficiencies aren't amplified as much. You've got twin towers. Of course, then we're down to ONE (count 'em "1") other big on the whole roster, who can't play PF, Kanter. Don't see how that works out well. Can't imagine Paul going anywhere unless there's another deal in the works for a PF.

3) Ummm...read a sample of Hawks' fans posts here. and you'll see the only player they want gone more than Iso Joe (@23 mill/year or whatever) is Marvin Williams. Now, maybe that's just because they're still bitter he was picked AHEAD OF D-Will and CP-3, but they do not love him. At all. (I'd be bitter too. Imagine the full Hawks roster PLUS Chris Paul!! The Heat would STILL be playing catch up and so would everybody else.)

V) Back to Millsap, between his talent, his willingness, his character and his nice contract, he's immensely valuable to any team in the league. Iguodala, Josh Smith, Rudy Gay valuable. And that's the only kind of offers KOC is listening to, I'll bet.

i) Kanter will get minutes this year. You can't go 82 games with ZERO injuries to your bigs for two years in a row. Just never happens.

1) IF Millsap goes, I'd really like for it to be done in a way that a) nets us Ryan Anderson or b) allows us to sign AK, and this time, let him have his PF minutes, come hell or high water. As of now, needing a big and 3-pt shooting, Anderson is the perfect add. He also rebounds some.

zero24gravity wrote:

Just saw a tweet that rumored a Harris for Marvin Williams deal ..... not sure of the source.

Wouldn't love or hate it. Williams is athletic and can play SF/PF. He's also a deep threat, which would help.

Not sure if I'd want to pay him for 3 years and 7.5 million though. Maybe with a pick or 2 as well?

Also saw something about Utah and Hinrich, but that seemed like pure speculation.

I would think the Jazz could do better in a trade for Harris then Marvin Williams he has been on a downhill slid for the last two season that's why the Hawks want to get rid of him.

dongibby wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Just saw a tweet that rumored a Harris for Marvin Williams deal ..... not sure of the source.

Wouldn't love or hate it. Williams is athletic and can play SF/PF. He's also a deep threat, which would help.

Not sure if I'd want to pay him for 3 years and 7.5 million though. Maybe with a pick or 2 as well?

Also saw something about Utah and Hinrich, but that seemed like pure speculation.

I would think the Jazz could do better in a trade for Harris then Marvin Williams he has been on a downhill slid for the last two season that's why the Hawks want to get rid of him.

Not really on a downhill slide. His production has been roughly the same for the last 4 years. I think that's the thing Hawks fans hate about him. They think given his high draft position they were looking for more development then that. At the #2 pick they were looking for a superstar not a role player. He would fit in good here. Of course the whole thing was just speculation on the part of Pk. So I'm sure it's not even in the realm of reality.

Romoholic wrote:

dongibby wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Just saw a tweet that rumored a Harris for Marvin Williams deal ..... not sure of the source.

Wouldn't love or hate it. Williams is athletic and can play SF/PF. He's also a deep threat, which would help.

Not sure if I'd want to pay him for 3 years and 7.5 million though. Maybe with a pick or 2 as well?

Also saw something about Utah and Hinrich, but that seemed like pure speculation.

I would think the Jazz could do better in a trade for Harris then Marvin Williams he has been on a downhill slid for the last two season that's why the Hawks want to get rid of him.

Not really on a downhill slide. His production has been roughly the same for the last 4 years. I think that's the thing Hawks fans hate about him. They think given his high draft position they were looking for more development then that. At the #2 pick they were looking for a superstar not a role player. He would fit in good here. Of course the whole thing was just speculation on the part of Pk. So I'm sure it's not even in the realm of reality.

Guess I was wrong. Looks like it's gonna happen.

Romoholic wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

dongibby wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Just saw a tweet that rumored a Harris for Marvin Williams deal ..... not sure of the source.

Wouldn't love or hate it. Williams is athletic and can play SF/PF. He's also a deep threat, which would help.

Not sure if I'd want to pay him for 3 years and 7.5 million though. Maybe with a pick or 2 as well?

Also saw something about Utah and Hinrich, but that seemed like pure speculation.

I would think the Jazz could do better in a trade for Harris then Marvin Williams he has been on a downhill slid for the last two season that's why the Hawks want to get rid of him.

Not really on a downhill slide. His production has been roughly the same for the last 4 years. I think that's the thing Hawks fans hate about him. They think given his high draft position they were looking for more development then that. At the #2 pick they were looking for a superstar not a role player. He would fit in good here. Of course the whole thing was just speculation on the part of Pk. So I'm sure it's not even in the realm of reality.

Guess I was wrong. Looks like it's gonna happen.

Hah! That makes up for you being right the other day!

But spot on about Williams. He is what he is. Which is NOT a #2 pick superstar. He IS however, better than Darko. And Greg Oden. And Michael Olowakandi. We might be pleasantly surprised, but the Hawks fans HATE him.

Trollificus wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

dongibby wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Just saw a tweet that rumored a Harris for Marvin Williams deal ..... not sure of the source.

Wouldn't love or hate it. Williams is athletic and can play SF/PF. He's also a deep threat, which would help.

Not sure if I'd want to pay him for 3 years and 7.5 million though. Maybe with a pick or 2 as well?

Also saw something about Utah and Hinrich, but that seemed like pure speculation.

I would think the Jazz could do better in a trade for Harris then Marvin Williams he has been on a downhill slid for the last two season that's why the Hawks want to get rid of him.

Not really on a downhill slide. His production has been roughly the same for the last 4 years. I think that's the thing Hawks fans hate about him. They think given his high draft position they were looking for more development then that. At the #2 pick they were looking for a superstar not a role player. He would fit in good here. Of course the whole thing was just speculation on the part of Pk. So I'm sure it's not even in the realm of reality.

Guess I was wrong. Looks like it's gonna happen.

Hah! That makes up for you being right the other day!

Yeah, but I did say the day they traded for Mo that there wasn't a chance in hell Devin was on this team when training camp started. So I'm still in the +

I haven't really been keeping score, but yeah, I think you are.

OK, my head is officially swimming. Marvin Freakin' Williams?

Plus side - another solid wing/SF, ummmm, I guess a smallish need the Jazz had.

But...how has either Marvin and Mo addressed the Jazz's most glaring need in a shooter?

I'm probably missing something in KOC's world view that somehow makes this look smart. It was obvious Harris was out the door with the Mo signing but I was sure it and the GSW pick would have equaled a shooter. Admit it, how many of you guys are psyched that Harris and his expiring are gone for Marvin Williams? What is the BIG PICTURE here? Right now, I would say the Jazz are well staffed at all positions but it doesn't smell like they have done much besides get a tad bit better at PG and SF. Is the hidden beauty somehow in how this current collection of talent somehow is greater than its parts????

(I'm fantasizing that Hayward and Burks, working out together, emailed KOC a clip of each of them, under one-on-one pressure, were draining long balls on each other, sayin' "See, you already got your damn shooters!)"

PS. Just hit me. Jazz aren't done. I'll wager that bottle of fine scotch Romo still owes me that before the new season tips off the Jazz actually have a new face on the team that is known for being a good outside shooter. At this point I figure it is definitely going to be a subtle pick up - no Al or Millsap down the road, yet another tweak that, KOC, god be willin', sees as the PIECE. And, lets not forget that Al and Sap are in contract years, dealing and wheeling could go on to Feb.

Well, one thing is for sure: The Jazz are not standing pat!

MTJazz wrote:

OK, my head is officially swimming. Marvin Freakin' Williams?

Plus side - another solid wing/SF, ummmm, I guess a smallish need the Jazz had.

But...how has either Marvin and Mo addressed the Jazz's most glaring need in a shooter?

I'm probably missing something in KOC's world view that somehow makes this look smart. It was obvious Harris was out the door with the Mo signing but I was sure it and the GSW pick would have equaled a shooter. Admit it, how many of you guys are psyched that Harris and his expiring are gone for Marvin Williams? What is the BIG PICTURE here? Right now, I would say the Jazz are well staffed at all positions but it doesn't smell like they have done much besides get a tad bit better at PG and SF. Is the hidden beauty somehow in how this current collection of talent somehow is greater than its parts????

(I'm fantasizing that Hayward and Burks, working out together, emailed KOC a clip of each of them, under one-on-one pressure, were draining long balls on each other, sayin' "See, you already got your damn shooters!)"

they aint SA from downtown. They will be much better though. williams though shot 10% better from downtown than Harris did. Marvin Williams shot 39% from downtown. That is much better than Miles and Howard. Hayward for the 2nd strait year got much better in the 2nd half of the season. He shot 42% from downtown in the 2nd half of the season.

The Jazz shot 34.7% from downtown in the 2nd half. For the season, that would have put them 13th. I agree that this needed to be addressed, but im not exactly sure if this is such a glaring weakness anymore. I see them finishing in the middle of the league this year. I now see defense as the biggest weakness. Getting Favors more PT will help that.

Another thing that will help that out is the versatility of the jazz. Whether they start together the lineup of hayward 6-8 marvin williams 6-9 millsap 6-8 and favors 6-10 will play a lot together. They will be able to switch everything. THat is one thing that really helps the Heat. Now, they have LeBron who has athletic ability that is out of this world, and wade is not far behind, and bosh is athletic also for his size. Not saying they will be like the Heat, but it will be similar.

I also agree that KOC might not be done. I dont see any signings, but i can see another trade.

therawns wrote:

Another thing that will help that out is the versatility of the jazz. Whether they start together the lineup of hayward 6-8 marvin williams 6-9 millsap 6-8 and favors 6-10 will play a lot together. They will be able to switch everything. THat is one thing that really helps the Heat. Now, they have LeBron who has athletic ability that is out of this world, and wade is not far behind, and bosh is athletic also for his size. Not saying they will be like the Heat, but it will be similar.

I also agree that KOC might not be done. I dont see any signings, but i can see another trade.

Yea, MT and others, the 3pt shooting bump is actually pretty big. When you look at the top 3pt shooters last year, the 18, 19 and 20th players shot like 40%, and now we picked up two guys in Mo and Marv who both shot 39%. Both of them much better than our best last year in Devin and CJ. That 3pt shooting was a most glaring weakness, and we actually got significantly better, all while not spending another penny, AND adding an actual Sf, but a guy that can also rebound and play PF.

Like Romo above, our versatility is out of sight now, I mean it's insane the lineups we can put out there now, with guys like 6'8 GH and Marv and Burks.
This team was already going to be better next year, but now we added more skills and needs.

All it takes to "vastly improve" our 3-pt shooting is 3-4 more makes/game. I think we can easily do that, and if it's a couple of makes in the 4th quarter...well. Some games turn out differently.

THEN, the synergistic effects start kicking in, with defenders rotating out to the line, opening lanes for drives from the wings and cuts to open spots for the bigs. Which causes more open 3s, um so weider...

So that's huge, and it will help the Jazz immensely. (yes, I know...something about counting chickens? None of those baskets have been made yet. I know.)

But I think what MT's getting at is "Where's the championship potential?" "Where's the dramatic move that gives us a chance to hang with the elite?" Amirite?

We're never, REPEAT: NEVER going to get the megastars to band together in Utah. Resign yourself to it. No point in dumping everybody to free up $40 million in cap space in case we can sign Dwight and Chris Paul. We aren't. Let's just put together the best team we can, and while we have so many high draft picks on the roster, give it our best shot.

I realize we're trying to win a championship in a place the networks would rather not see win, with players Stern and the shoe companies would rather not see win, playing a type of non-star team ball that nobody (apparently) wants to see win. So yeah, it's not a level playing field at all. The odds are against the Jazz EVER winning a championship. I like that fact that we go out and compete for 82 anyway. If that's all I ever get from the Jazz, I'll still root for them.

Trollificus wrote:

All it takes to "vastly improve" our 3-pt shooting is 3-4 more makes/game. I think we can easily do that, and if it's a couple of makes in the 4th quarter...well. Some games turn out differently.

THEN, the synergistic effects start kicking in, with defenders rotating out to the line, opening lanes for drives from the wings and cuts to open spots for the bigs. Which causes more open 3s, um so weider...

So that's huge, and it will help the Jazz immensely. (yes, I know...something about counting chickens? None of those baskets have been made yet. I know.)

But I think what MT's getting at is "Where's the championship potential?" "Where's the dramatic move that gives us a chance to hang with the elite?" Amirite?

We're never, REPEAT: NEVER going to get the megastars to band together in Utah. Resign yourself to it. No point in dumping everybody to free up $40 million in cap space in case we can sign Dwight and Chris Paul. We aren't. Let's just put together the best team we can, and while we have so many high draft picks on the roster, give it our best shot.

I realize we're trying to win a championship in a place the networks would rather not see win, with players Stern and the shoe companies would rather not see win, playing a type of non-star team ball that nobody (apparently) wants to see win. So yeah, it's not a level playing field at all. The odds are against the Jazz EVER winning a championship. I like that fact that we go out and compete for 82 anyway. If that's all I ever get from the Jazz, I'll still root for them.

That in a nutshell is why I don't jump on the trade Al or Milsap bandwagon. Utah very rarely gets very good to great players that want to be here. Hell I don't even want to be here thus the move Dallas in a few months Gotta make sure I get the League Pass so I can still watch every game though.

I hope the finishing touches on the roster will be get rid of Bell and resign Evans. I scared of what else might happen.

rorybreaker wrote:

I hope the finishing touches on the roster will be get rid of Bell and resign Evans. I scared of what else might happen.

This is all I keep reading, all over:

http://www.hoopsworld.com/more-change-coming-for-utah-jazz

KOC not done, probably something bigger coming.

And as for me, turning Devin into MO/Marv, great deals.