GTS Utah @ Toronto 11/12/12

OK, the match-up that at least two of us have been waiting for (not going to say who)......


So, who has the better line? Since Jonas is generally getting more minutes, we'll try and keep this fair...... per 30 minutes stats.

jazz get first road win. 7 Enes is the man!

Jazz 12
Enes, who's per 30 is sick compared to Jonas at this point. (Sorry Calg, the kid looks promising but very rookie-like, certainly not a clearly better choice than Kanter)

I totally expect big Al to do same thing to Jonas what he did to Bismack last year. Will get him in foul trouble, frustrated and sitting on the bench most of the game. On the other hand if Casey would have the balls to run plays for Jonas hey could easily exploit biggest big AL weakness - pick and roll defense. I would run Jose to JV pick and roll non stop but this is not going to happen as their " big guys" Demar and Andrea will need to have their 15 jumpers or so per game.
I will wait with my prediction till I know if Lowry is playing, if he is not it should be easy win for Jazz, if he is it will be tough.
Are you counting pts, reb, blk, stl, ast, minus TO for line of what? we should do full fantasy line then, include FG%, FT% as well. Neither of them will shoot 3's.

Jazz by 7.
Big Enes.

MTJazz wrote:

Jazz 12
Enes, who's per 30 is sick compared to Jonas at this point.

Are you sure you not looking at preseason stats? Because at this point in regular season it looks like that
FG advantage Kanter, FT advantage JV
Stats per 30min:
JV Kanter
pts 12 11.09
reb 8.25 6.8
ast 1.5 0.2
stl 0 0.8
blk 1.2 1.2
to 1.8 3.5

As you see Kanter has advantage in FG and stls, JV in FT, pts, reb, ast and TO and they are tied in blocks.
Really got me confused - whats so sick about Kanter per 30min stats?

Calgary Jazz wrote:

I totally expect big Al to do same thing to Jonas what he did to Bismack last year. Will get him in foul trouble, frustrated and sitting on the bench most of the game. On the other hand if Casey would have the balls to run plays for Jonas hey could easily exploit biggest big AL weakness - pick and roll defense. I would run Jose to JV pick and roll non stop but this is not going to happen as their " big guys" Demar and Andrea will need to have their 15 jumpers or so per game.
I will wait with my prediction till I know if Lowry is playing, if he is not it should be easy win for Jazz, if he is it will be tough.
Are you counting pts, reb, blk, stl, ast, minus TO for line of what? we should do full fantasy line then, include FG%, FT% as well. Neither of them will shoot 3's.

Yes, sorry about not specifying. pts, reb, blk, stl, ast, minus TO

I've got Jazz by 15, Kanter with a better line per 30. They have both been so all over the place so far so this is pretty much a coin toss, but my man Kanter is going to pull this one out for me.

Jazz by 9.

I'm going with the averages here; Jonas will edge Enes in per 30 stats.

I like Kanter but I need to go with one of my fantasy centers.

Jonas wins this battle this time.

OK... too bad... Utah will lose by 10! But Kanter will be better per 30min... and also per 1, 2, ..., 48 and 213 min. Don't know about other durations, though.

Sorry, mean no offense, 30 min is cool, but I just had a good Russian party.

ok, so no Lowry, Jazz win by 5 and Jonas has better line.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

I totally expect big Al to do same thing to Jonas what he did to Bismack last year. Will get him in foul trouble, frustrated and sitting on the bench most of the game. On the other hand if Casey would have the balls to run plays for Jonas hey could easily exploit biggest big AL weakness - pick and roll defense. I would run Jose to JV pick and roll non stop but this is not going to happen as their " big guys" Demar and Andrea will need to have their 15 jumpers or so per game.
I will wait with my prediction till I know if Lowry is playing, if he is not it should be easy win for Jazz, if he is it will be tough.
Are you counting pts, reb, blk, stl, ast, minus TO for line of what? we should do full fantasy line then, include FG%, FT% as well. Neither of them will shoot 3's.

Solid prediction there Calg, on all counts.

TheMagnus wrote:

Solid prediction there Calg, on all counts.

Yeah, thanks. Life is tough for NBA rookies, I would say two calls were legit other two were BS. In general refs did very poor job for both teams I think, Raptors TV crew was crying all game about FT and pts in the paint disparity, there were very questionable calls both ways at the end of the the game and ovetimes, almost it looked like refs wanted to make it as close as possible... working that 3 pt spread?
All in all - quality win but JV vs Kanter was not even close.

Looked close to me

Calgary Jazz wrote:

In general refs did very poor job for both teams I think, Raptors TV crew was crying all game about FT and pts in the paint disparity, there were very questionable calls both ways at the end of the the game and ovetimes, almost it looked like refs wanted to make it as close as possible... working that 3 pt spread?

All in all - quality win but JV vs Kanter was not even close.

Well the Raptors are the #1 fouling team in the NBA right now, and the Jazz are #6, so the ref's definitely had their work cut out for them.

I guess "close" is sort of relative. By Zero's rules Kanter scores a 10 ish while JV doubles him up with around 21 ish, but JV's performance was definitely not something to write home about.

I have actually been fairly suprised at how raw they both are at the start of this season.

Kanter is really struggling with proper help and rotations on screens and cuts, on top of that it is just abundantly clear that he is still learning the game of basketball, there are so many little things that you can tell he simply doesn't understand right now and basic fundamentals that he still struggles with. But his offensive game overall really hasn't been that bad, his jumper looks better, he's getting blocked less, and he's finnishing almost 80% of his attempts around the rim. The biggest concern to me is the big decrease in his rebounding and spike in turnovers so far. A lot of those turnovers are travels and ofensive fouls, and Favors has been taking a bigger share of the rebounds, but still, I'm concerned that Kanter is focusing to much on making is offense work and neglecting the other strong points of his game.

JV is clearly further along in that regard, he just lookes like a more pollished basketball player, but he has almost completely failed to live up to the hype he had coming in, both in terms of box score, and impact. The hype surrounding him was that he was a great defender and high efficiency finnisher that even if he struggled a bit was going still going to immediately help the raptors shed their rep of being soft and terrible defensively. So far that hasn't been the case at all, he's got one of the worst +/- on the team, he's shooting below 50% due mostly to the fact that 1/3 of his shots are non-layup/dunk and he's only making 28% of those attempts, and the Raptors are still one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA.

I'm no longer at all interested in any sort of pissing match between which of these two is, was or will be "better", I am a Jazz fan and Kanter is my man, but comparisons of the development in the two of them given their almost identical age, hype over "potential", and positions juxtaposed with their vastly different paths and opportunities absolutely fascinates me. It's almost like an experiment in Nature vs Nurture, only with unrelated gigantic white europeans playing basketball.

TheMagnus wrote:

JV is clearly further along in that regard, he just lookes like a more pollished basketball player, but he has almost completely failed to live up to the hype he had coming in, both in terms of box score, and impact. The hype surrounding him was that he was a great defender and high efficiency finnisher that even if he struggled a bit was going still going to immediately help the raptors shed their rep of being soft and terrible defensively. So far that hasn't been the case at all, he's got one of the worst +/- on the team, he's shooting below 50% due mostly to the fact that 1/3 of his shots are non-layup/dunk and he's only making 28% of those attempts, and the Raptors are still one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA.
.

Why they are still one of the worst? They were 12th best in NBA last year. Losing James Johnson hurts them the most in that regard. They have their own"Boozer" in Bargnani who is absolutely garbage on defense. Pair him with JV who can't play any physical defense so far as refs call all contact as foul on him and you have problems. But JV will be just fine, it is only 7 games into season, refs will stop calling that BS eventually and then his impact will be very positive. Not sure where you getting your numbers but his PER is better then Kanter, Hayward, Marvin Williams and Foye for example. Not bad for a rookie. 100% FT shooting helps as well. Even yesterday while Raptors where giving him the ball in the paint he was 100% effective. His FG% is improving, he missed bunch of tip ins and easy putbacks in early games, as soon as he figures that it is better try to rebound it and kick out instead of trying to tip in all the time he will be at his usual 60% FG.

The Jazz win in 3OT by 7. (I do not think this was a "good win" no matter what anyone else says. A 1 win Toronto team, without their best player, and it takes Al hitting a 3 to win this???? Terrible!)

Jonas had the better stat line, per 30, but they both were pretty useless. In a 63 minute game, they combined for 11 points, 4 rebounds & 5 fouls. Jonas, who is the teams starting center, had A.Johnson & E.Davis play more minutes. Hell, the Rap's even put in Aaron Gray in the OT instead of Jonas. I feel like nobody should get bonus points, but will abide by the rules & give points for picking Jonas. Although neither side should be proud of their choice.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

Why they are still one of the worst? They were 12th best in NBA last year. Losing James Johnson hurts them the most in that regard. They have their own"Boozer" in Bargnani who is absolutely garbage on defense. Pair him with JV who can't play any physical defense so far as refs call all contact as foul on him and you have problems. But JV will be just fine, it is only 7 games into season, refs will stop calling that BS eventually and then his impact will be very positive. Not sure where you getting your numbers but his PER is better then Kanter, Hayward, Marvin Williams and Foye for example. Not bad for a rookie. 100% FT shooting helps as well. Even yesterday while Raptors where giving him the ball in the paint he was 100% effective. His FG% is improving, he missed bunch of tip ins and easy putbacks in early games, as soon as he figures that it is better try to rebound it and kick out instead of trying to tip in all the time he will be at his usual 60% FG.

What, no analysis on why Kanter will be fine? On why we shouldn't be too down on his struggles?

Another Jazz fan fail for you Calg, now allow me to step out of the way as you piss into the wind...

TheMagnus wrote:

What, no analysis on why Kanter will be fine? On why we shouldn't be too down on his struggles?
..

Kanter is what he is. Big bruising rebounder. Taller Reggie Evans. I do not have any hope for him in the future so why should I bother talking about him? Remember, I do not see him with Jazz after his rookie deal is done.
I better hope Jazz follow their typical path and sign JV in the future as another player they could have had for cheap lol ( Boozer, Big Al ).

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

What, no analysis on why Kanter will be fine? On why we shouldn't be too down on his struggles?
..

Kanter is what he is. Big bruising rebounder. Taller Reggie Evans. I do not have any hope for him in the future so why should I bother talking about him? Remember, I do not see him with Jazz after his rookie deal is done.
I better hope Jazz follow their typical path and sign JV in the future as another player they could have had for cheap lol ( Boozer, Big Al ).

Wow. Well that pretyt much seals it, I am officially revoking your Jazz fan card.


As such, you shall from henceforth be known by whatever team you are declaring better or smarter than the Jazz and treated by me as a trolling fan of the opposition.

Good day sir, good day.

TheMagnus wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

What, no analysis on why Kanter will be fine? On why we shouldn't be too down on his struggles?
..

Kanter is what he is. Big bruising rebounder. Taller Reggie Evans. I do not have any hope for him in the future so why should I bother talking about him? Remember, I do not see him with Jazz after his rookie deal is done.
I better hope Jazz follow their typical path and sign JV in the future as another player they could have had for cheap lol ( Boozer, Big Al ).

Wow. Well that pretyt much seals it, I am officially revoking your Jazz fan card.


As such, you shall from henceforth be known by whatever team you are declaring better or smarter than the Jazz and treated by me as a trolling fan of the opposition.

God day sir, good day.

Hey you two, stop pissing in my GTS thread. Take this fight outside wouldya?

It's not like I envoked this argument with the bonus question, right? Right?

zero24gravity wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

What, no analysis on why Kanter will be fine? On why we shouldn't be too down on his struggles?
..

Kanter is what he is. Big bruising rebounder. Taller Reggie Evans. I do not have any hope for him in the future so why should I bother talking about him? Remember, I do not see him with Jazz after his rookie deal is done.
I better hope Jazz follow their typical path and sign JV in the future as another player they could have had for cheap lol ( Boozer, Big Al ).

Wow. Well that pretyt much seals it, I am officially revoking your Jazz fan card.


As such, you shall from henceforth be known by whatever team you are declaring better or smarter than the Jazz and treated by me as a trolling fan of the opposition.

God day sir, good day.

Hey you two, stop pissing in my GTS thread. Take this fight outside wouldya?

It's not like I envoked this argument with the bonus question, right? Right?

Sorry, that's my bad.

TheMagnus wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

What, no analysis on why Kanter will be fine? On why we shouldn't be too down on his struggles?
..

Kanter is what he is. Big bruising rebounder. Taller Reggie Evans. I do not have any hope for him in the future so why should I bother talking about him? Remember, I do not see him with Jazz after his rookie deal is done.
I better hope Jazz follow their typical path and sign JV in the future as another player they could have had for cheap lol ( Boozer, Big Al ).

Wow. Well that pretyt much seals it, I am officially revoking your Jazz fan card.


As such, you shall from henceforth be known by whatever team you are declaring better or smarter than the Jazz and treated by me as a trolling fan of the opposition.

God day sir, good day.

Hey you two, stop pissing in my GTS thread. Take this fight outside wouldya?

It's not like I envoked this argument with the bonus question, right? Right?

Sorry, that's my bad.

Why waste your time? You know Big E gonna be good.

TheMagnus wrote:

Wow. Well that pretyt much seals it, I am officially revoking your Jazz fan card.
.

Oh don't tell me you like or liked everybody on the roster equaly. I did not like J.Howard when he played for the Jazz last year for example, Mutang hated CJ all the time, does it make you less of the fan? We all have our favorite players and some players we do not like. Don't tell me you would like Carmelo if he somehow would end up playing for the Jazz.