Charlotte and Utah trade idea

I haven't been impressed with Hayward as a potential all-star player yet he plays well off the bench. Unfortunately, Foye isn't playing well as a starter. In addition, we have a log jam at with Jefferson and Millsap (one of whom will be retained. My bet is on Jefferson). Thus, to get a quality starter and relieve the log jam, I'm proposing a trade with the Bobcats.

To Charlotte: Millsap, Bell, Burks.
To Utah: Gerald Henderson, Tyrus Thomas

Money wise, this trade works. Gerald Henderson is on his rookie contract expiring the end of the season while Thomas is due $8M for 3 seasons.

Why Henderson? Henderson is considered to have all-star potential by the Charlotte's organization (similar to Hayward) but isn't living up to his potential and chemistry is a huge issue with the current roster. He's been struggling this year and is being outplayed by a rookie Jeffery Taylor as well as Ben Gordon. According to Real Gm Bobcats fans, they believe Hendo is redundant and is therefore expendable. "Taylor is looking like he could possibly provide everything that hendo does, but with more range. Moving forward with both of them on the roster may actually make hendo pretty redundant." - thesneakysneak Bobcats fan. After this season, I don't believe Henderson's value will be high so Utah can sign him for $7M for 4 years.

Why Thomas? Tyrus is a frustratingly talented individual who is a headcase for all the bad teams he played on. However, being on a winning team might change his attitude. With the veterans Utah has, Thomas will straighten out. He'll back-up Favors and give Utah a shot-blocker in the second unit . But at $8M for the next 3 seasons and his baggage, he's a gamble.

Why trade Millsap? Millsap is simply 2short2ball along side Jefferson. In Charlotte, he'll get to be "the man" and be the post scorer/rebounder Bobcats lack. Plus, he'll be paid extravagantly.

Why Burks? Utah isn't using him except as a seat warmer. Get him out while he still has any trade value left.

Why Bell? We hate Bell.

Looking at the financial situation for 2013/14, Utah will have a payroll of $22M (excluding Burks). Mo.Williams might be a Jazzman ($7M) depending if Utah finds a star PG or not, Marvin will opt-in ($7.5M), Carroll will stay ($5M) and Jefferson will also stay ($11M). That adds up to $30.5M with a total of $53M payroll. Adding Thomas and Henderson to the payroll will put the Jazz in the luxury tax. However, if Utah can sign a max player (CP3, HOliday, Jeff Teague, etc.) then Mo.Williams is expendable. Sure the Jazz will be in the luxury tax but it's the price the Millers must pay to be a contender.

Imagine this roster if Utah signs Jeff Teague
PG: Teague ($13M), ?? (lots of good back-up PG in free agency)
SG: Henderson ($7M), Hayward($3.5M), Murphy ($1M)
SF: Marv. Williams ($7.5), Carroll ($5M)
PF: D.Favors ($6M), T.Thomas ($8M), Evans ($1.8M)
C: Jefferson ($11M), Kanter ($4.7M), (free agent Robert Sacre, the perfect cheerleader)

2013/14 Payroll: ~$70M. Current 2012/13 payroll: ~$65

I believe with this roster Utah will be a contender. Outside and inside offense is covered with penetration by Teague and Henderson. Defense is vastly improved. Extremely deep bench. What's not to like?

Tell me what you think about it.

I couldn't disagree more with this.

My rebuttle is that everything you wrote I agree the opposite is true.

Burks will be a star in Utah, unless you get an all star he is not going anywhere.

Milsap for Thomas, Charlotte would kill for this trade.

Put your key board down and just walk away.

Carroll for 5 million, dude I love him but dude.
Henderson 7 million, dude dude.
Thomas 8 million, dude dude dude
Teague for 13 million, dude dude dude dude.

You want to have those 4 players for 33 million dollars.


Walk away before you get hurt.

Hendo sucks but Burks is a bust too.
Thomas is a bone head. They have to give me both them first rounders for taking that steaming pile of $35 million dollars. Michael Jordan will just waste 'em anyway. I could spend them picks way better.

I hate almost everything about this plan, are you a closeted Bobcats fan?

First off, you have to be joking about Henderson. Henderson is 25 and has NEVER been even half the player Hayward (22 years old) is. "All-Star Potential"???? That ship has sailed, and the "Starter Potential" ship is passing right behind it as we speak. And giving him $7 Million a year?!?!?! WOW, just wow.

Second, Tyrus Thomas is dead weight, he had "potential" once, now all he has is baggage...oh, and a 3 YEAR, $25 MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT!!!!!

So the Jazz are going to send Charlotte a proven starting quality player and a 20 year old with great potential, and in return they are going to get a 25 year old, who isn't any better than the 20 year old and plays the same position as 4 players currently on the roster who are DEFINITELY better than he is, with "potential" and just to sweeten the deal we'll also take back one of the worst contracts in the NBA right now. GREAT IDEA!!!! While we're at it why don't we have KOC give Jordan a happy ending while Jordan puts a big statue of himself in front of ESA!

Hey, you put yourself out there, and I repect that, so don't get discouraged, but this is without question a terrible terrible idea.

Teague is interesting, but at this point in his career (4th year, 24 years old) there are no guarantees that he will ever even be better than Mo Williams, much less worth $13 Million a year.

Burks has talent no doubt about it and will be a player in the NBA and I would hope that before the Jazz thinks about trading him they give him a shot as the starting SG, with Hayward playing off of the bench and nobody really taking the job over I would like to see him getting some run he could not do any worse than these other guys have. He just might get into his grove and become the player the Jazz wanted when they drafted him, the Kid has the talent for sure I think he needs playing time to build up his confidence.

dongibby wrote:

Burks has talent no doubt about it and will be a player in the NBA and I would hope that before the Jazz thinks about trading him they give him a shot as the starting SG, with Hayward playing off of the bench and nobody really taking the job over I would like to see him getting some run he could not do any worse than these other guys have. He just might get into his grove and become the player the Jazz wanted when they drafted him, the Kid has the talent for sure I think he needs playing time to build up his confidence.

Agreed. I am a Burks fan & hope he gets a shot, but at the same time, everything I've read since preseason says that Foye is outplaying him even in practice. Carroll has been very effective & it's not like that Jazz want Gordon to lose minutes. I think, based off last year, he needs a shot, but he also needs to earn those minutes, right? Tough situation.

zero24gravity wrote:

dongibby wrote:

Burks has talent no doubt about it and will be a player in the NBA and I would hope that before the Jazz thinks about trading him they give him a shot as the starting SG, with Hayward playing off of the bench and nobody really taking the job over I would like to see him getting some run he could not do any worse than these other guys have. He just might get into his grove and become the player the Jazz wanted when they drafted him, the Kid has the talent for sure I think he needs playing time to build up his confidence.

Agreed. I am a Burks fan & hope he gets a shot, but at the same time, everything I've read since preseason says that Foye is outplaying him even in practice. Carroll has been very effective & it's not like that Jazz want Gordon to lose minutes. I think, based off last year, he needs a shot, but he also needs to earn those minutes, right? Tough situation.

I have to tell you that maybe Foye is outplaying Burks on the offensive end of the floor but with the way he play's D no way he is out playing Burks at that end of the floor. I also think that the Jazz are playing Foye because they want to stretch the court and with the way he hits 3's he is getting the job done better than Burks could. I think it is just a matter of time before Burks get's his outside shot were it needs to be for him to be a more all around player but the more playing time he gets the sooner it comes IMO anyway.

dongibby wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

dongibby wrote:

Burks has talent no doubt about it and will be a player in the NBA and I would hope that before the Jazz thinks about trading him they give him a shot as the starting SG, with Hayward playing off of the bench and nobody really taking the job over I would like to see him getting some run he could not do any worse than these other guys have. He just might get into his grove and become the player the Jazz wanted when they drafted him, the Kid has the talent for sure I think he needs playing time to build up his confidence.

Agreed. I am a Burks fan & hope he gets a shot, but at the same time, everything I've read since preseason says that Foye is outplaying him even in practice. Carroll has been very effective & it's not like that Jazz want Gordon to lose minutes. I think, based off last year, he needs a shot, but he also needs to earn those minutes, right? Tough situation.

I have to tell you that maybe Foye is outplaying Burks on the offensive end of the floor but with the way he play's D no way he is out playing Burks at that end of the floor. I also think that the Jazz are playing Foye because they want to stretch the court and with the way he hits 3's he is getting the job done better than Burks could. I think it is just a matter of time before Burks get's his outside shot were it needs to be for him to be a more all around player but the more playing time he gets the sooner it comes IMO anyway.

Yea agree with you Don on this, and NEGS on the trade. Henderson will probably be a good starter for his career. Hayward already is, and has improved every year. I think Burks right now is almost equal to Henderson in skill level, just hasn't been getting the minutes. Both are offensive players, minimal defensive tendencies. Burks has a LONGGGG way to go to get better. He's already shown an ability to score though, and is shooting 3's when he's in and hitting them.

As for Foye, I'm starting to wonder if Ty Corbin just can't help but fall in love with the offensive guys. Foye is shooting GREAT for us, but his defense is absolutely atrocious, and opposite 2's are killing us. Ty also rides Al Jeff, which his scoring is great, but there are times when we need some D, and I hate how little Paul and Fav play together.

Bobcats fans are somewhat high on Henderson that's why I suggested trading for him. I didn't realize he isn't a good player, I thought his lack of production was due to his team's lack of chemistry and a roster full of chuckers. However, being outplayed by a rookie should have made me re-evaluate him. As for Thomas, a headcase yes but I have always drooled over his potential. I came up with the trade idea at 3am. The How I met your mother rule "nothing good comes after 2am" applied for this scenario. Thanks for the opinions, I certainly have a changed my views.

Regarding Jeff Teague, I talked to my roommate who works for the Jazz and he says currently Mo.Williams is definitely better than Teague and Ty Lawson. Numbers wise, Teague is similar to Lawson which intrigued me.

Thanks for your perspectives Jazz fans.

i[m]M.V.P. wrote:

Bobcats fans are somewhat high on Henderson that's why I suggested trading for him. I didn't realize he isn't a good player, I thought his lack of production was due to his team's lack of chemistry and a roster full of chuckers. However, being outplayed by a rookie should have made me re-evaluate him. As for Thomas, a headcase yes but I have always drooled over his potential. I came up with the trade idea at 3am. The How I met your mother rule "nothing good comes after 2am" applied for this scenario. Thanks for the opinions, I certainly have a changed my views.

Regarding Jeff Teague, I talked to my roommate who works for the Jazz and he says currently Mo.Williams is definitely better than Teague and Ty Lawson. Numbers wise, Teague is similar to Lawson which intrigued me.

Thanks for your perspectives Jazz fans.

I think the idea of persuing Teague isn't a bad one...... but not if the team has to overpay.

I don't think Foye has been bad, Maybe he shouldn't be starting, but he is giving us the three point shooting we disparately needed and doing it well. Not to mention, while not a great defender he plays defense with aggression and tends to get into the head of the guy he is guarding. He also plays with a little bit of an attitude, which I like as well.

Mutangclan wrote:

dongibby wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

dongibby wrote:

Burks has talent no doubt about it and will be a player in the NBA and I would hope that before the Jazz thinks about trading him they give him a shot as the starting SG, with Hayward playing off of the bench and nobody really taking the job over I would like to see him getting some run he could not do any worse than these other guys have. He just might get into his grove and become the player the Jazz wanted when they drafted him, the Kid has the talent for sure I think he needs playing time to build up his confidence.

Agreed. I am a Burks fan & hope he gets a shot, but at the same time, everything I've read since preseason says that Foye is outplaying him even in practice. Carroll has been very effective & it's not like that Jazz want Gordon to lose minutes. I think, based off last year, he needs a shot, but he also needs to earn those minutes, right? Tough situation.

I have to tell you that maybe Foye is outplaying Burks on the offensive end of the floor but with the way he play's D no way he is out playing Burks at that end of the floor. I also think that the Jazz are playing Foye because they want to stretch the court and with the way he hits 3's he is getting the job done better than Burks could. I think it is just a matter of time before Burks get's his outside shot were it needs to be for him to be a more all around player but the more playing time he gets the sooner it comes IMO anyway.

Yea agree with you Don on this, and NEGS on the trade. Henderson will probably be a good starter for his career. Hayward already is, and has improved every year. I think Burks right now is almost equal to Henderson in skill level, just hasn't been getting the minutes. Both are offensive players, minimal defensive tendencies. Burks has a LONGGGG way to go to get better. He's already shown an ability to score though, and is shooting 3's when he's in and hitting them.

As for Foye, I'm starting to wonder if Ty Corbin just can't help but fall in love with the offensive guys. Foye is shooting GREAT for us, but his defense is absolutely atrocious, and opposite 2's are killing us. Ty also rides Al Jeff, which his scoring is great, but there are times when we need some D, and I hate how little Paul and Fav play together.

I actually like what Foye brings. I am not nearly as disappointed with him as a lot of people seem to be.
Opposing teams ALWAYS kill us. Always have, probably always will. But at least he shoots the 3 at a pretty good clip, as SGs are supposed to do.
Obviously, a lock down defender that shoots the 3 lights out would be awesome. But those are few and far between. I like Foye. He isn't perfect, but I like his attitude and what he brings to the table.

B. Liberation wrote:

Hendo sucks but Burks is a bust too.
Thomas is a bone head. They have to give me both them first rounders for taking that steaming pile of $35 million dollars. Michael Jordan will just waste 'em anyway. I could spend them picks way better.

Burks is a bust? Based on what?

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I actually like what Foye brings. I am not nearly as disappointed with him as a lot of people seem to be.
Opposing teams ALWAYS kill us. Always have, probably always will. But at least he shoots the 3 at a pretty good clip, as SGs are supposed to do.
Obviously, a lock down defender that shoots the 3 lights out would be awesome. But those are few and far between. I like Foye. He isn't perfect, but I like his attitude and what he brings to the table.

First off, greatest pic ever VOR, hah, awesome.

Second, I love what Foye brings us too, his shooting has won games for us. But I think his defense has helped lose games for us. So putting him in an MORE ideal situation is my preference. Is his mostly GREAT 3pt shooting needed in the first unit, or is DC's decent 3pt shooting and great hustle more beneficial?? And it's fairly likely that he gets even better looks with the second unit.
I just really like DC in that first unit with all those scorers etc.

Romoholic wrote:

I don't think Foye has been bad, Maybe he shouldn't be starting, but he is giving us the three point shooting we disparately needed and doing it well. Not to mention, while not a great defender he plays defense with aggression and tends to get into the head of the guy he is guarding. He also plays with a little bit of an attitude, which I like as well.

Ditto. I kinda like foye more than i ever thought i would and i think his D is ok.
Burks had a few minutes few games ago and allmost looked like he wanted to be a shooter not slasher.Burk is best when driving to the hole and not sitting out there bombing 3s. He'll get it still young.
Kanter is just fun to watch and he's gonna be great when he gets a start role or more minutes.

Mutangclan wrote:

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I actually like what Foye brings. I am not nearly as disappointed with him as a lot of people seem to be.
Opposing teams ALWAYS kill us. Always have, probably always will. But at least he shoots the 3 at a pretty good clip, as SGs are supposed to do.
Obviously, a lock down defender that shoots the 3 lights out would be awesome. But those are few and far between. I like Foye. He isn't perfect, but I like his attitude and what he brings to the table.

First off, greatest pic ever VOR, hah, awesome.

Second, I love what Foye brings us too, his shooting has won games for us. But I think his defense has helped lose games for us. So putting him in an MORE ideal situation is my preference. Is his mostly GREAT 3pt shooting needed in the first unit, or is DC's decent 3pt shooting and great hustle more beneficial?? And it's fairly likely that he gets even better looks with the second unit.
I just really like DC in that first unit with all those scorers etc.

I certainly won't argue that he should be starting. You make a very legitimate point about DC's hustle compared to Foye's 3 point shooting. I actually like Foye coming off the bench. So, I don't argue that Foye should start....I only argue that he has pretty good value and a definite place/role on this team.

As for Foye's defense....I don't think it is as big of a liability as some do. I think he plays pretty good defense and I have yet to see him give up on defense. He may not be the lock down defender everyone wishes he was, but I personally think he is pretty good...certainly above average. So, I will have to respectfully disagree with your statement that his defense has helped us lose some games. Although, I haven't seen every game...so maybe I have missed something.

Actually, Henderson had a couple of good games to start the season and then was injured for the next 13. So much for "being outplayed". Since he's returned, his numbers have been better than Hayward's in similar minutes. This is the best he's played in his career, so a lot of the rationale in the original post was just made up to fit the proposal.

Second, Foye hasn't been that bad. True, his less-than-elite size and athleticism (even though he's black?? Yes. ) prevent him from being a plus defender (and that's been what's moved him to his 4th team in 7 years), but he's been okay.

Third, will everybody get off the "Burks as the third member of the Big Three on our future Championship Team" fantasy bandwagon??? I'm pretty sure the people who watch him practice every day would have some idea if they were sitting an All-Star talent 45 minutes of every game. Maybe you could attach that bandwagon to the "Favors All Star in 2013/14!!" engine and the "Jeremy Evans needs 20 min/game" caboose and run in circles going "Wooo-wooo!! Jazz have the most talent in the league!!" This is total homerism. (sorry if that sounds harsh)

FOURTH, and related to the above, every player in the NBA under 25 has "potential", especially the "length and athleticism" guys. Thomas is in his EIGHTH (8th) YEAR now. He has had people moved to give him more minutes, he's been paid like a fast-rising star-to-be, and he doesn't actually play basketball for shit. See, beyond that "length" and "hops" there's a little thing called "skill" and unless you think a few blocked shots makes a guy a defensive stopper, he really doesn't do much on the court. Do. Not. Want.

I do appreciate the thought that went into the OP, man. I just disagree with a lot of it.

Trollificus wrote:

Second, Foye hasn't been that bad. True, his less-than-elite size and athleticism (even though he's black?? Yes. ) prevent him from being a plus defender (and that's been what's moved him to his 4th team in 7 years), but he's been okay.

It ain't cause he's black man it's cause he's chubby. Bet you he kills the dance floor, does some nice dancing on the court all the time. Lot of steals this year in crucial moments to go with them 3's.