Korver? Somebody wants to say Foye is better?

Ummm...no.

Per DaltonDelDon:

Quote :

Kyle Korver was the 148th most valuable fantasy player last year. He ranked 183rd the season before that and 187th in 2009/10. He came in at 165th in 2008/09 and 122nd in 2007/08. Right now he currently ranks 28th, a number that jumps to 14th over the past month. Remarkably, he’s done this with a Usage Rate of 14.47, which is the 189th lowest in the NBA (and this is with a minimum of 20+ games played and 20+ mpg too). It’s actually the lowest Usage Rate of his career since Hoop Data started tracking the stat, so it’s safe to say he’s been pretty efficient with his touches. A whopping 94.3 percent of his field goals have come off assists, which unsurprisingly leads the league. His True Shooting Percentage (66.0) is second only to Tyson Chandler, who’s led the NBA in the category each of the past two seasons (Chandler’s 70.8 TS% last year was the best ever recorded, and he’s not far off this year at 70.1%). Korver is averaging a modest 11.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg and 1.9 apg and yet has been more valuable in fantasy terms than Mike Conley, Brandon Jennings, Paul Millsap, Blake Griffin, Al Horford, Deron Williams and DeMarcus Cousins, among many others. It’s safe to say he looks like the biggest bargain of this year’s draft.

Korver is having the best year of his career and even producing well on defensive stats. Of course, defensive stats aren't the same as "good defense" and Korver isn't really a SG, which the Jazz needed. But make no mistake, he's a better player than Foyre.

Trollificus wrote:

Ummm...no.

Per DaltonDelDon:

Quote :

Kyle Korver was the 148th most valuable fantasy player last year. He ranked 183rd the season before that and 187th in 2009/10. He came in at 165th in 2008/09 and 122nd in 2007/08. Right now he currently ranks 28th, a number that jumps to 14th over the past month. Remarkably, he’s done this with a Usage Rate of 14.47, which is the 189th lowest in the NBA (and this is with a minimum of 20+ games played and 20+ mpg too). It’s actually the lowest Usage Rate of his career since Hoop Data started tracking the stat, so it’s safe to say he’s been pretty efficient with his touches. A whopping 94.3 percent of his field goals have come off assists, which unsurprisingly leads the league. His True Shooting Percentage (66.0) is second only to Tyson Chandler, who’s led the NBA in the category each of the past two seasons (Chandler’s 70.8 TS% last year was the best ever recorded, and he’s not far off this year at 70.1%). Korver is averaging a modest 11.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg and 1.9 apg and yet has been more valuable in fantasy terms than Mike Conley, Brandon Jennings, Paul Millsap, Blake Griffin, Al Horford, Deron Williams and DeMarcus Cousins, among many others. It’s safe to say he looks like the biggest bargain of this year’s draft.

Korver is having the best year of his career and even producing well on defensive stats. Of course, defensive stats aren't the same as "good defense" and Korver isn't really a SG, which the Jazz needed. But make no mistake, he's a better player than Foyre.

Yep, we were talking about the same subject on the Marv thread. Korver doesn't play much SG any more, but, he still has a lot of the qualities that make a great SG. I'm pretty sure it was the price tag, not the performance, that let Korver slip away from the Jazz.

Yep, I made mistake after I dropped him. Kind of regret it.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

Yep, I made mistake after I dropped him. Kind of regret it.

Me TOO!

I've made some amazingly stupid drops across 5 leagues I'm in...including Calderone (that was a mouse error, though), Vasquez, Korver, Splitter (IN ALL FIVE F'ING LEAGUES!Q!! I'm the original Splitter guy, I had him on teams for the last two years even at 20 min/game...then he breaks out and I don't have him on a single team. Ugh), Ilyasova (another of MY guys who I think I had on each of my teams at one time or another...just not when he started going for 25/14 every game), Kawhi Leonard, Shawn Marion, who I picked up before anybody realized how productive he still is, then dropped when he was dinged...with an injury that lasted ONE GAME, Earl Clark, Byron Mullens...

I think a team of players I've dropped and couldn't get back would beat any of my other teams!!

It's just hard to tell when you're being wisely patient and when you're just stubbornly hanging on to a non-productive player.

Yep, we were talking about the same subject on the Marv thread. Korver doesn't play much SG any more, but, he still has a lot of the qualities that make a great SG. I'm pretty sure it was the price tag, not the performance, that let Korver slip away from the Jazz.[/quote]

If Korver would have played like he is now the Jazz would of never let him go, he just did not play up to his potential when he was here IMO anyway. Foye might not be a better player at this time but he is sure doing what the Jazz wanted out of him when they signed him and that is hitting 3's at a high rate stretching the floor, along the way he is also adding other little things like assists' and other things that guards do I really like what Foye brings to the court for the Jazz but would like to see the Young gun's get the starting job's when it is all said and done they are the future.

dongibby wrote:

he just did not play up to his potential when he was here IMO anyway.

or Sloan never used him right way. He never had any plays as primary option to get him 3 pt shots. All he knew is to get inside, get layups first and 3 ball was as last resort at the end of the clock if primary option did not work. There was one exception with Deron and Memo as they run pick and pop more then pick and roll and Memo was so good at knocking that 3 ball down. But with Kyle he tried to run him through screens aka Hornacek or Harping for that midrange shot from the elbow - did not look like it was working that great anyway.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

dongibby wrote:

he just did not play up to his potential when he was here IMO anyway.

or Sloan never used him right way. He never had any plays as primary option to get him 3 pt shots. All he knew is to get inside, get layups first and 3 ball was as last resort at the end of the clock if primary option did not work. There was one exception with Deron and Memo as they run pick and pop more then pick and roll and Memo was so good at knocking that 3 ball down. But with Kyle he tried to run him through screens aka Hornacek or Harping for that midrange shot from the elbow - did not look like it was working that great anyway.

Have to agree with that assessment, it was a complaint of mine at the time. Let us not forget that the 3-ball was mostly an option of last resort in Sloan's offense and seldom was a play called for one, it was more happenstance. Nonetheless, I always thought Korver was an all-around solid player. At the end of the day he is another example of a mid-level talent that the Jazz weren't willing to chase in the market place. Typically a decent strategy but it looks like Korver had more game in him than we imagined at this stage of his career, playing up to his salary.

MTJazz wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

dongibby wrote:

he just did not play up to his potential when he was here IMO anyway.

or Sloan never used him right way. He never had any plays as primary option to get him 3 pt shots. All he knew is to get inside, get layups first and 3 ball was as last resort at the end of the clock if primary option did not work. There was one exception with Deron and Memo as they run pick and pop more then pick and roll and Memo was so good at knocking that 3 ball down. But with Kyle he tried to run him through screens aka Hornacek or Harping for that midrange shot from the elbow - did not look like it was working that great anyway.

Have to agree with that assessment, it was a complaint of mine at the time. Let us not forget that the 3-ball was mostly an option of last resort in Sloan's offense and seldom was a play called for one, it was more happenstance. Nonetheless, I always thought Korver was an all-around solid player. At the end of the day he is another example of a mid-level talent that the Jazz weren't willing to chase in the market place. Typically a decent strategy but it looks like Korver had more game in him than we imagined at this stage of his career, playing up to his salary.

I always love how people talk about Sloan not using guys the "right way", what a load of BS. The funniest part about it is that it always involves guys who are either role players or were simply not good enough to do whatever it is people think they could be doing the "right way".

It started with Eaton, and people wondering why he didn't get more touches offensively, then AK and why he wasn't a bigger part of the offense, and pretty much every decent 3pt shooter ever to play for Sloan wasn't used the "right way" because he didn't give them a chance to chuck up 6 threes a game.

All the while he consistently posted top 10 (usually top 5) NBA offenses, players (even the shooters) consistently put up some of their most efficient seasons playing for him, and the most common thing you hear players that played for him say was that his teams play basketball "the right way".

Anybody remember Korvers last season with the Jazz?

Let me refresh your memory...

49% FG (carreer best), 54% 3pt (league record for 100+ attempts), 13.9 PER (3rd best of career)

If there was any way to argue that he wasn't properly utilized by Sloan it would be that he wasn't playing enough, but that wasn't your agument, so no points for you.

TheMagnus wrote:

Let me refresh your memory...

49% FG (carreer best), 54% 3pt (league record for 100+ attempts), 13.9 PER (3rd best of career)

If there was any way to argue that he wasn't properly utilized by Sloan it would be that he wasn't playing enough, but that wasn't your agument, so no points for you.

Always quick with the slap down, eh? Part of not being used the right way includes MINUTES, which was implicit in my post. And further, yes, Korver was efficient with shooting percentage the last year and therefore should have been given the green light to put up a lot more shots, if not having more plays run for him. He put up 110 3-balls that last year in Utah whereas in his career he averaged about 300 attempts and already he has put up 267 3-balls for Atlanta this year and incidentally, has a better make percentage than Foye. Foye has the green light, Korver didn't. Nuff said, oh great one.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Let me refresh your memory...

49% FG (carreer best), 54% 3pt (league record for 100+ attempts), 13.9 PER (3rd best of career)

If there was any way to argue that he wasn't properly utilized by Sloan it would be that he wasn't playing enough, but that wasn't your agument, so no points for you.

Always quick with the slap down, eh? Part of not being used the right way includes MINUTES, which was implicit in my post. And further, yes, Korver was efficient with shooting percentage the last year and therefore should have been given the green light to put up a lot more shots, if not having more plays run for him. He put up 110 3-balls that last year in Utah whereas in his career he averaged about 300 attempts and already he has put up 267 3-balls for Atlanta this year and incidentally, has a better make percentage than Foye. Foye has the green light, Korver didn't. Nuff said, oh great one.

nuff said? ya, you probably shouldn't say any more.

Korver only played 52 games that season, he averaged 4 attempts per 36, as compared to 6 now, he KILLED the mid range game on the flex cut, and he had a HIGHER usage rate (meaning he was given the GREEN LIGHT to shoot more) with Utah than he is this season for Atlanta.

You know I'm just messin with you man, this stuff doesn't matter, but I never realy did understand why people thought Sloans teams needed to shoot more 3's, that offense was a machine, it made players better by getting them good shots, not giving them green lights.

TheMagnus wrote:

All the while he consistently posted top 10 (usually top 5) NBA offenses, players (even the shooters) consistently put up some of their most efficient seasons playing for him, and the most common thing you hear players that played for him say was that his teams play basketball "the right way".

Anybody remember Korvers last season with the Jazz?

Let me refresh your memory...

49% FG (carreer best), 54% 3pt (league record for 100+ attempts), 13.9 PER (3rd best of career)

Beat me to it Mag.

Also, Korver is having a great year. Good for him. He wouldn't be doing anything if Lou hadn't gone down, since he was playing behind him.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

dongibby wrote:

he just did not play up to his potential when he was here IMO anyway.

or Sloan never used him right way. He never had any plays as primary option to get him 3 pt shots. All he knew is to get inside, get layups first and 3 ball was as last resort at the end of the clock if primary option did not work. There was one exception with Deron and Memo as they run pick and pop more then pick and roll and Memo was so good at knocking that 3 ball down. But with Kyle he tried to run him through screens aka Hornacek or Harping for that midrange shot from the elbow - did not look like it was working that great anyway.

Have to agree with that assessment, it was a complaint of mine at the time. Let us not forget that the 3-ball was mostly an option of last resort in Sloan's offense and seldom was a play called for one, it was more happenstance. Nonetheless, I always thought Korver was an all-around solid player. At the end of the day he is another example of a mid-level talent that the Jazz weren't willing to chase in the market place. Typically a decent strategy but it looks like Korver had more game in him than we imagined at this stage of his career, playing up to his salary.

I always love how people talk about Sloan not using guys the "right way", what a load of BS. The funniest part about it is that it always involves guys who are either role players or were simply not good enough to do whatever it is people think they could be doing the "right way".

It started with Eaton, and people wondering why he didn't get more touches offensively, then AK and why he wasn't a bigger part of the offense, and pretty much every decent 3pt shooter ever to play for Sloan wasn't used the "right way" because he didn't give them a chance to chuck up 6 threes a game.

All the while he consistently posted top 10 (usually top 5) NBA offenses, players (even the shooters) consistently put up some of their most efficient seasons playing for him, and the most common thing you hear players that played for him say was that his teams play basketball "the right way".

Anybody remember Korvers last season with the Jazz?

Let me refresh your memory...

49% FG (carreer best), 54% 3pt (league record for 100+ attempts), 13.9 PER (3rd best of career)

If there was any way to argue that he wasn't properly utilized by Sloan it would be that he wasn't playing enough, but that wasn't your agument, so no points for you.

I guess I agree with most of what you're saying. I definitely don't blame Sloan for his use of Korver. When Korver was healthy, Sloan used him very well coming off screens. Looking back, there was a while when Sloan started CJ Miles over Korver, using Korver as a scorer off the bench. Sloan, back then, was trying develop a championship team, and we needed Miles to fill our B. Russ role (which he never did). Korver WAS our best 3-pt shooter, but, we had Memo setting a 3pt record for the Jazz, and, I think, the Jazz were looking for Memo to come back from his injury and return to form. That didn't happen.

The Jazz turned into the team to be poached by the rest of the league. We lost Korver in the mix.

I don't remember a time when Eaton had a bunch of people saying he should be more of a part of our offense, but, the rest of your post seems solid.

Ah, that's just the 'Our guys are soooo good." Fallacy.

People can SEE, clearly, how huge, athletic and talented the players on their team are. And yet, with a single exception every year, they don't win the title. They KNOW Player A is great and Player B is best at this or that...but they don't lead the league in any categories. What the hell is going on??

Could it be simple observation bias? Could it be isolating their numerous successful plays and glossing over less-obvious poor ones? Or failing to account for the fact that other teams ALSO have huge, athletic and talented players dedicated to making our players unsuccessful?? Maybe?? Nah.

It's the coach. Gotta be. The record isn't as good as it should be when compared to how much good our guys are. Coach is screwing this up!!

This isn't even a Jazz thing or a Sloan thing. I think it's just a fan thing.

ps) Yes, people (fans) used to call the Jazz radio show every preseason and ask if 'this is the year Sloan finally gets Eaton more involved in the offense'. Used to drive Dave Blackwell crazy!!

(Used to drive Dave Blackwell crazy!!)

Blackwell is a jerk who did not know his ass from his head, after listening to him talk on the radio one day and hearing him saying that Utah fan's don't know anything about basketball I lost any respect that I might of had for the guy and there was not mush to begin with anyways. I don't like the butt head at all that is why he was taken off of the Jazz broadcasting unit. He was always putting himself above the Utah Fans when in fact he did not know anything more than them about basketball, he was just a sports reporter on one of the Utah TV stations and has never played one day as a ball player at any level.

Kyle korver can actually play defense and he isn't slow as ****. Anyone that would say steve novak doesn't know basketball very well. Kyle set an nba history record for 3 point percentage for a reason.

There is not 1 thing I can say about steve that is better than Kyle.

Kyle is quicker, more dimensional, better defender, better passer, and an overall much better player.

I will say Steve can knock down open jumpers, but Kyle can do it with a defender on him and a much quicker release.

Also, in the interest of accuracy. Korver has started all year, even when Lou started (started all but 3 games all year) and he has been efficient all year, with or without Lou in the lineup.

His MPG has gone up to over 36 with Williams out, though.

His 14.4/4.6/2.6 over the last 30 days are decent, and the 1.0spg/0.6bpg and 1.1 TO, with great percentages and 3+ 3s/game are all +. So, some solid plus stats and NO negative categories makes him a fine player, in fantasy at least, and the rankings reflect that. And it's more the minutes, and improvement in the volume cats, that account for it.

ps) Dong, stuff like that used to drive Chris Tunis, Ron Boone, and ME, crazy as well. Nice that you didn't like Blackwell (who stayed on as the #1 guy on the JazzTalk program till the station takeover by David Locke, when his health was already failing), that doesn't really have anything to do with fan bias and the example of "Why doesn't Sloan let Mark Eaton participate in the offense more?". I had my issues with Blackwell at time too, but fan myopia is very real.

raidon1982 wrote:

Kyle korver can actually play defense and he isn't slow as ****. Anyone that would say steve novak doesn't know basketball very well. Kyle set an nba history record for 3 point percentage for a reason.

There is not 1 thing I can say about steve that is better than Kyle.

Kyle is quicker, more dimensional, better defender, better passer, and an overall much better player.

I will say Steve can knock down open jumpers, but Kyle can do it with a defender on him and a much quicker release.

Nice, impassioned defense there, except nobody mentioned Steve Novak in this thread. At all. I'm sure some lazy-thinking people would put Novak and Korver in the same category, just nobody here.

But welcome to JazzNation, noob.

raidon1982 wrote:

Kyle korver can actually play defense and he isn't slow as ****. Anyone that would say steve novak doesn't know basketball very well. Kyle set an nba history record for 3 point percentage for a reason.

There is not 1 thing I can say about steve that is better than Kyle.

Kyle is quicker, more dimensional, better defender, better passer, and an overall much better player.

I will say Steve can knock down open jumpers, but Kyle can do it with a defender on him and a much quicker release.

Guess somebody is still sleeping in their extra large KK jersey.....

raidon1982 wrote:

Kyle korver can actually play defense and he isn't slow as ****. Anyone that would say steve novak doesn't know basketball very well. Kyle set an nba history record for 3 point percentage for a reason.

There is not 1 thing I can say about steve that is better than Kyle.

Kyle is quicker, more dimensional, better defender, better passer, and an overall much better player.

I will say Steve can knock down open jumpers, but Kyle can do it with a defender on him and a much quicker release.

Umm, welcome aboard. Don't be scared by the scorn of the moderators. Plus, I don't get your post, could you elaborate? Seriously.