Point Guard

Well, gentlemen, as I see it, the Jazz are just about the most average team in the NBA, with no chance of improving on last season. That is, unless, the front office dares to pull out all the stops and decides to make a drastic move to grab a top 10 range point guard. Of course, this kind of maneuver is unlikely, given all of the circumstances and the conditions in which such a move might happen, but one dares to dream.

The current PG situation is simply not conducive to improvement, short or long term. The Jazz can't beat good teams, or teams on the road, when they are getting zero production from the PG position. Let's face it, the league is a PG centered league. If you don't have an elite PG, you had better have a top-10 scorer who can facilitate a little bit for his teammates. Clearly, the Jazz have neither. Thus I have very little hope that the Jazz will do any better than last year's eighth seed, and a quick playoff exit (if even that).

I hate to be a bummer/killjoy, but this is my current outlook. So what are the chances that the Jazz pull the trigger and make a significant move before the trade deadline? Obviously, the team has a lot of assets. Are they willing to use them, or will the front office be content to play the free agent game this summer, knowing that the Utah Jazz have a distinct disadvantage compared to larger/sexier marker teams? I'm afraid that they will choose the latter. Thoughts?

JKA, I certainly share your misgivings about the Jazz playing "the FA Game", which calls into question the "nobody under contract for next year" salary cap flexibility play with this roster.*

I truly hope O'Connor/Lindsey have a better and more subtle plan than this appears to be on the surface. Because throwing money at free agents has not been the path to success for many teams, especially small-market teams, extra especially small-market teams that suffer a dearth of what we may call (if we take the Tiptoe Train to Euphemismville) 'urban culture'.

Rather, it results in the kinds of contracts teams desperately attempt to trade away, sometimes almost as soon as they are signed (Boozer, JJohnson, Agent Zero, Rashard Lewis, Turkoglu, Nene, etc., etc.) Teams that clear salary space (and are not the Knicks, Heat or LA) end up signing whoever's available to whatever they have left to spend because they HAVE to spend it-there's a minimum salary cap too. Players end up with max contracts who are not 'max contract players', and they then become albatrosses, anchors, cap-room killers and eventually "expiring contracts".

And without a PG or any players signed for next year, we may, without ever having actually "blown up" the team, be presented next year with a fully pre-blown-up rebuilding project. Out of nowhere, like magic. Say hello to The Kris Humphries, Monta Ellis, Michael Beasley, Tyrus Thomas and Hedo "Expiring Contract" Turkoglu** version of the Utah Jazz. And, probably, Jaron Collins or Nazir Mohammed or Louis Amundsen in the bargain.

The time to move was last year. We make a trade involving Jefferson (OR S&T Millsap) with Washington, Sacto, Cleveland or Charlotte-taking on whatever bad contracts they want to dump AND THEIR NUMBER ONE PICK. Then we draft Lilliard and move on w/ Favors, Kanter, Hayward, whichever of Al or Millsap, Burks and Lilliard. That a viable building core, I think. Hope for the future and under the cap.

To me, that sounds a lot better than what we are going to have next year. UNLESS, as you say, we are going to make a move in the next 10 days. And I don't see who's available to make that happen after we missed on Calderone (and Lilliard last year). Ugh.

Again, I'm hoping our guys prove better at the GM game than I am, as they have proven to be before.

*-after reading this post, I HOPE it is suitable for the "Hysterical Overreaction" Thread.

*-no idea if any of these players are realistic options, just throwing out the TYPE of players teams end up with as the result of going blindly into an offseason with a lot of cap space when a lot of teams have a lot of cap space. If it happens, you saw it here first.

Trollificus wrote:

The time to move was last year. We make a trade involving Jefferson (OR S&T Millsap) with Washington, Sacto, Cleveland or Charlotte-taking on whatever bad contracts they want to dump AND THEIR NUMBER ONE PICK. Then we draft Lilliard and move on w/ Favors, Kanter, Hayward, whichever of Al or Millsap, Burks and Lilliard. That a viable building core, I think. Hope for the future and under the cap.

To me, that sounds a lot better than what we are going to have next year. UNLESS, as you say, we are going to make a move in the next 10 days. And I don't see who's available to make that happen after we missed on Calderone (and Lilliard last year). Ugh.


*-after reading this post, I HOPE it is suitable for the "Hysterical Overreaction" Thread.

Man, I lean on the positive side usually, but your first paragraph was a shot to the gut, mainly because it makes COMPLETE sense. Ugh. That not hysterical over-reaction, thats just plain sensical.

Mo is a good PG though, and when he comes back, a full Jazz team could win a first round matchup. But thats the peak.

I'm hopeful the management has something up their sleeves NOW. If not, mediocre city.

Mutangclan wrote:

Trollificus wrote:

The time to move was last year. We make a trade involving Jefferson (OR S&T Millsap) with Washington, Sacto, Cleveland or Charlotte-taking on whatever bad contracts they want to dump AND THEIR NUMBER ONE PICK. Then we draft Lilliard and move on w/ Favors, Kanter, Hayward, whichever of Al or Millsap, Burks and Lilliard. That a viable building core, I think. Hope for the future and under the cap.

To me, that sounds a lot better than what we are going to have next year. UNLESS, as you say, we are going to make a move in the next 10 days. And I don't see who's available to make that happen after we missed on Calderone (and Lilliard last year). Ugh.


*-after reading this post, I HOPE it is suitable for the "Hysterical Overreaction" Thread.

Man, I lean on the positive side usually, but your first paragraph was a shot to the gut, mainly because it makes COMPLETE sense. Ugh. That not hysterical over-reaction, thats just plain sensical.

Mo is a good PG though, and when he comes back, a full Jazz team could win a first round matchup. But thats the peak.

I'm hopeful the management has something up their sleeves NOW. If not, mediocre city.

I know hindsight is all 20/20 and whatnot, but to be fair, at the trade deadline last year it looked like a very decent possibility that we would end up with at least one and maybe two draft picks, were it not for one of the biggest tank jobs in NBA history, combined with a highly improbable stretch of good play by our guys at the end of the season, we would have had them.

You don't think that would have changed things? If the Jazz had, say...Harrison Barnes or Terrence Ross with the 8th pick and lets say Kendall Marshall with the 15 or 16th pick, do you think we would have gone out and made the moves to bring in Mo, Marvin, and Foye? That's the kind of thing you just can't plan for, the Jazz lost them both and so the plan was set back a year.

This summer we almost definitely have two picks, and I'm not sure why you would want more because by all counts this draft is one of the weaker when it comes to elite talent in recent history.

I've also said before that the Jazz don't chase mid level free agents, they just don't. What they will do is go out and make offers to players coming off rookie contracts and see who they can land. There are several that I think could fit into that category this summer. Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings, Tiago Splitter, Eric Bledsoe...these are restricted free agents that could be pried away for the right price.

I think as we get closer to the deadline the Jazz are going to be working the phones like crazy, not shopping as much as listening to offers, and if the right offer doesn't come they are just going to sit tight and let it pass...and I think that will be just fine.

Yeah, I realize that sounded like second-guessing, and I HATE second-guessing. I was just temporarily bowled over by a vision of how good the Jazz would be, with Lilliard, and how we would totally be dealing from a position of strength with a solid, all-position core of rising young players. *sigh*

The main point of the post was my concern with what the Jazz FO have in mind with this "all-expiring" team. And I'm one who has always advocated for trusting them, defended KO'C against critics, and thought bringing Lindsey in as KO'C Jr was a genius move. And now I don't have a clue whether I should trust them or not.

I DO like the theory of going after players off their rookie contracts. Houson did pretty well getting Asic and Lin, even with the 'poison pill' last year on those contracts. I'm just worried about us whiffing on our desired FAs...and I keep having visions of teams with cap space in that situation..."And now, say hello to your new max-contract 'face of the franchise' player: RASHARD LEWIS!! CARLOS BOOZER!! JOE JOHNSON! WILL BYNUM!!

AAAAAGHHH!!! **Wakes up horrified**

thejazzkickazz wrote:

Thus I have very little hope that the Jazz will do any better than last year's eighth seed, and a quick playoff exit (if even that)...... Thoughts?

Hope springs anew after a win over the Thunder!!! LOL.

My new optimistic scenario is that after the All Star break we get at least two of the second unit players out of DC, Favors, Kanter and Burks stepping up significantly every game (can be a different two every game), helping us get enough wins to stave off Houston and to overtake slumping Golden State for sixth place. We draw the Clippers in the first round. Millsap then rediscovers the Millsap that outplayed Blake a few times. Mo and Foye raise their games to a higher level playing in their old arena against their old team, voiding much of Chris Paul's expected, huge advantage. Jefferson decisively wins his matchup; DC and Hayward win theirs; Favors and Kanter help us dominate the paint and the boards and Chauncey can't keep up with the flying Burks. The Jazz pull off a stunning upset over the heavily favored Clippers in the first round!

Crunchtime1 wrote:

thejazzkickazz wrote:

Thus I have very little hope that the Jazz will do any better than last year's eighth seed, and a quick playoff exit (if even that)...... Thoughts?

Hope springs anew after a win over the Thunder!!! LOL.

My new optimistic scenario is that after the All Star break we get at least two of the second unit players out of DC, Favors, Kanter and Burks stepping up significantly every game (can be a different two every game), helping us get enough wins to stave off Houston and to overtake slumping Golden State for sixth place. We draw the Clippers in the first round. Millsap then rediscovers the Millsap that outplayed Blake a few times. Mo and Foye raise their games to a higher level playing in their old arena against their old team, voiding much of Chris Paul's expected, huge advantage. Jefferson decisively wins his matchup; DC and Hayward win theirs; Favors and Kanter help us dominate the paint and the boards and Chauncey can't keep up with the flying Burks. The Jazz pull off a stunning upset over the heavily favored Clippers in the first round!

That's funny because the Clippers and Grizzlies are the only elite teams we haven't beat this year. Still I agree with you, a first round matchup with either of them seems like a best case scenario...

...and so help me if I don't truly believe that this team could pull it off.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

thejazzkickazz wrote:

Thus I have very little hope that the Jazz will do any better than last year's eighth seed, and a quick playoff exit (if even that)...... Thoughts?

Hope springs anew after a win over the Thunder!!! LOL.

My new optimistic scenario is that after the All Star break we get at least two of the second unit players out of DC, Favors, Kanter and Burks stepping up significantly every game (can be a different two every game), helping us get enough wins to stave off Houston and to overtake slumping Golden State for sixth place. We draw the Clippers in the first round. Millsap then rediscovers the Millsap that outplayed Blake a few times. Mo and Foye raise their games to a higher level playing in their old arena against their old team, voiding much of Chris Paul's expected, huge advantage. Jefferson decisively wins his matchup; DC and Hayward win theirs; Favors and Kanter help us dominate the paint and the boards and Chauncey can't keep up with the flying Burks. The Jazz pull off a stunning upset over the heavily favored Clippers in the first round!

Thats pretty good Crunch. I'd only add one caveat: that the second unit guys stepping up include Marv and not DC, since DC will be in the starting lineup. He has earned it, shown it, stat-shown it, it balances things, it makes sense, and last of all he's flat out beating Marv every game.
So, yea, maybe Marv has a few 3's off the bench on the second unit.
Even with KOC/Lindsey's notoriously silent approach, I also think a trade of Al or Paul is going to happen. So Fav moves into the starting 5. Kanter gets more minutes and alot more double doubles.
With these things done, to include Burks now solid play too, this team is looking pretty good.

PS: Burks looked GREAT last night.

Mutangclan wrote:

Crunchtime1 wrote:

thejazzkickazz wrote:

Thus I have very little hope that the Jazz will do any better than last year's eighth seed, and a quick playoff exit (if even that)...... Thoughts?

Hope springs anew after a win over the Thunder!!! LOL.

My new optimistic scenario is that after the All Star break we get at least two of the second unit players out of DC, Favors, Kanter and Burks stepping up significantly every game (can be a different two every game), helping us get enough wins to stave off Houston and to overtake slumping Golden State for sixth place. We draw the Clippers in the first round. Millsap then rediscovers the Millsap that outplayed Blake a few times. Mo and Foye raise their games to a higher level playing in their old arena against their old team, voiding much of Chris Paul's expected, huge advantage. Jefferson decisively wins his matchup; DC and Hayward win theirs; Favors and Kanter help us dominate the paint and the boards and Chauncey can't keep up with the flying Burks. The Jazz pull off a stunning upset over the heavily favored Clippers in the first round!

Thats pretty good Crunch. I'd only add one caveat: that the second unit guys stepping up include Marv and not DC, since DC will be in the starting lineup. He has earned it, shown it, stat-shown it, it balances things, it makes sense, and last of all he's flat out beating Marv every game.
So, yea, maybe Marv has a few 3's off the bench on the second unit.
Even with KOC/Lindsey's notoriously silent approach, I also think a trade of Al or Paul is going to happen. So Fav moves into the starting 5. Kanter gets more minutes and alot more double doubles.
With these things done, to include Burks now solid play too, this team is looking pretty good.

PS: Burks looked GREAT last night.

Burks is looking so much better, as so many here said he would when he got the minutes (I'll admit I was not one of them), got to cut down on the TO's though.

I really think if the Jazz are going to have a legit shot at winning in the playoffs they will need Marvin and they will need him to step up and play well.

I also think that unless a trade for Al/Paul brings back a starting quality PG AND another solid rotation player it is going to be a step back in terms of this years team. Immediately it will upset the chemistry of this team, who seem to genuinely like each other, and no matter how you slice it giving either of their minutes to Kanter and Favors is a downgrade in the short term, especially in the playoffs where experience is critical to success.

TheMagnus wrote:

I really think if the Jazz are going to have a legit shot at winning in the playoffs they will need Marvin and they will need him to step up and play well.

I also think that unless a trade for Al/Paul brings back a starting quality PG AND another solid rotation player it is going to be a step back in terms of this years team. Immediately it will upset the chemistry of this team, who seem to genuinely like each other, and no matter how you slice it giving either of their minutes to Kanter and Favors is a downgrade in the short term, especially in the playoffs where experience is critical to success.

I think the Jazz need him, but as a secondary 3pt shooter off the bench. Someone thats not needed every game. Maybe even in that Bonner role (dream). Just a guy the opposing teams dont want to leave alone out there. I had high hopes for him coming to Utah, thought he'd rediscover his mojo, needed a change of scenary etc. But man, he just doesn't do aaaaannnnnyyyyyything.

I agree that if the trade didn't bring back those things, it would be a step back for sure. BUT, I believe a trade is 75% happening. Sadly, I only believe it's 50/50 that we get a starting quality PG and a rotation player. My guess, is I HATE the trade that happens and we get a couple second unit players and a lottery pick. (Patty Mills/Splitter/pick for example).

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I really think if the Jazz are going to have a legit shot at winning in the playoffs they will need Marvin and they will need him to step up and play well.

I also think that unless a trade for Al/Paul brings back a starting quality PG AND another solid rotation player it is going to be a step back in terms of this years team. Immediately it will upset the chemistry of this team, who seem to genuinely like each other, and no matter how you slice it giving either of their minutes to Kanter and Favors is a downgrade in the short term, especially in the playoffs where experience is critical to success.

I think the Jazz need him, but as a secondary 3pt shooter off the bench. Someone thats not needed every game. Maybe even in that Bonner role (dream). Just a guy the opposing teams dont want to leave alone out there. I had high hopes for him coming to Utah, thought he'd rediscover his mojo, needed a change of scenary etc. But man, he just doesn't do aaaaannnnnyyyyyything.

I agree that if the trade didn't bring back those things, it would be a step back for sure. BUT, I believe a trade is 75% happening. Sadly, I only believe it's 50/50 that we get a starting quality PG and a rotation player. My guess, is I HATE the trade that happens and we get a couple second unit players and a lottery pick. (Patty Mills/Splitter/pick for example).

I hope that if the Jazz do in fact trade Jefferson they get back a young up and coming PG if not I think I would rather see them keep Jefferson around, he has been big in teaching these Young Big's how to play in this league. I think I would rather see the Jazz take a shot at signing a guy like Caldron in this summer's free-agent market then to see them take back a lesser player in a trade for Jefferson.

dongibby wrote:

I hope that if the Jazz do in fact trade Jefferson they get back a young up and coming PG if not I think I would rather see them keep Jefferson around, he has been big in teaching these Young Big's how to play in this league. I think I would rather see the Jazz take a shot at signing a guy like Caldron in this summer's free-agent market then to see them take back a lesser player in a trade for Jefferson.

Yes, this exactly.

TheMagnus wrote:

That's funny because the Clippers and Grizzlies are the only elite teams we haven't beat this year. Still I agree with you, a first round matchup with either of them seems like a best case scenario...

...and so help me if I don't truly believe that this team could pull it off.

The Clips got swept by the Spurs last season in the playoffs, just like we did. And then the Thunder beat the Spurs. The Spurs and Thunder have a great deal of recent high level playoff experience; the Clips not so much. So I would rather play the Clips, but I think I am getting ahead of myself. We haven't made the playoffs yet!

MutangClan wrote:

I'd only add one caveat: that the second unit guys stepping up include Marv and not DC, since DC will be in the starting lineup. He has earned it, shown it, stat-shown it, it balances things, it makes sense, and last of all he's flat out beating Marv every game.

Yep, Just about all of us in Jazz Nation agree with you except for Ty Corbin, but even he may see the light eventually regarding DC and Marv.

Combination of -Mo', Marv, Big Al, Millsap two first round draft picks.
for
Elite PG, and or elite SF/SG.
It's not brain surgery.

rorybreaker wrote:

Combination of -Mo', Marv, Big Al, Millsap two first round draft picks.
for
Elite PG, and or elite SF/SG.
It's not brain surgery.

Or rocket surgery I guess.....

rorybreaker wrote:

Combination of -Mo', Marv, Big Al, Millsap two first round draft picks.
for
Elite PG, and or elite SF/SG.
It's not brain surgery.

Then why don't you put some names in those spots and see how your frankenstien turns out?

TheMagnus wrote:

I've also said before that the Jazz don't chase mid level free agents, they just don't. What they will do is go out and make offers to players coming off rookie contracts and see who they can land. There are several that I think could fit into that category this summer. Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings, Tiago Splitter, Eric Bledsoe...these are restricted free agents that could be pried away for the right price.

Not that I ever like the Jennings idea, but here's some info that casts even more doubt that Jennings (thankfully) will never be on Utah's radar:

http://www.brewhoop.com/2013/2/13/3985462/nba-trade-rumors-2013-brandon-jennings-bucks-trade-irreconcilable-differences

In addition, he feels as though he doesn't get the attention he deserves and wants a bigger market to take his talents to.

He didn't get a max deal, so he switched agents. He didn't make the all-star team, so he decided he needs to play in a bigger market. Fair enough...it's a free country, right?
The reality of course is that he didn't even remotely deserve a max deal, nor did he deserve to make the all-star team. Who represents him and where he plays basketball are merely footnotes to that reality, but admitting that requires a level of self-reflection that might prove too unflattering to bear.

If he really feels he's a max player/all star, then he's may be crazier than D.Cousins!

zero24gravity wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I've also said before that the Jazz don't chase mid level free agents, they just don't. What they will do is go out and make offers to players coming off rookie contracts and see who they can land. There are several that I think could fit into that category this summer. Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings, Tiago Splitter, Eric Bledsoe...these are restricted free agents that could be pried away for the right price.

Not that I ever like the Jennings idea, but here's some info that casts even more doubt that Jennings (thankfully) will never be on Utah's radar:

http://www.brewhoop.com/2013/2/13/3985462/nba-trade-rumors-2013-brandon-jennings-bucks-trade-irreconcilable-differences

In addition, he feels as though he doesn't get the attention he deserves and wants a bigger market to take his talents to.

He didn't get a max deal, so he switched agents. He didn't make the all-star team, so he decided he needs to play in a bigger market. Fair enough...it's a free country, right?
The reality of course is that he didn't even remotely deserve a max deal, nor did he deserve to make the all-star team. Who represents him and where he plays basketball are merely footnotes to that reality, but admitting that requires a level of self-reflection that might prove too unflattering to bear.

If he really feels he's a max player/all star, then he's may be crazier than D.Cousins!

Also, don't forget Jennings was the guy who went to europe instead of going to college and almost got kicked off his team because his behavior was so bad. He's a good player, maybe just not as good as he thinks he is.

I don't think he's a long term solution ... but a guy who's name I haven't seen on this board, that could be a help is former Jazzman Eric Maynor. He's fallen out of the rotation in OKC and in the final year of his contract, so I would guess he's available. He's young & showed promise before his injury.

Not a big splash move, but still someone to consider.

Incoming Players Goran Dragic, Marcin Gortat & Kendall Marshall for Al Jefferson, Mo Williams & GS pick and throw in players to make it work, this is a trade i think can get done and would help both team's. With Mo coming back soon I think the Suns would look at this trade I really do and it would work for both team's IMO.

dongibby wrote:

Incoming Players Goran Dragic, Marcin Gortat & Kendall Marshall for Al Jefferson, Mo Williams & GS pick and throw in players to make it work, this is a trade i think can get done and would help both team's. With Mo coming back soon I think the Suns would look at this trade I really do and it would work for both team's IMO.

You really think that PHO would give up Dragic AND Marshall, to be left with injury-prone-Mo & Tefair as their PG options?

I could see them moving one of them in the right deal, but not both of them.

zero24gravity wrote:

dongibby wrote:

Incoming Players Goran Dragic, Marcin Gortat & Kendall Marshall for Al Jefferson, Mo Williams & GS pick and throw in players to make it work, this is a trade i think can get done and would help both team's. With Mo coming back soon I think the Suns would look at this trade I really do and it would work for both team's IMO.

You really think that PHO would give up Dragic AND Marshall, to be left with injury-prone-Mo & Tefair as their PG options?

I could see them moving one of them in the right deal, but not both of them.

He is just a player I added in to make the trade work but maybe the Jazz add Watson or Tinsley to make it work who know's but Yes I think there is a trade to be made if both teams are willing to look into it and from some of the things I have read they are both open to talk trade with each other.

I think the best PG we could pursue would be Will Bynum (as someone else talked about on another thread). Unless the Lakers want to give up on Steve Nash, I don't see us adding a PG that will make much of a difference this year.

Will bynum would help us this year, but, not nearly enough to compete in a playoff series with any of the top teams. Detroit needs to figure out if Bynum is expendable. I don't see how Detroit can improve their team and keep Bynum. There's got to be a way we could get Bynum and help both us and Detroit.

I'd throw at least one of this year's first round picks at Dragic, but it would probably take both to get Phoenix to bite. Late 1sts aren't worth much. Dragic is on a good contract and has a very well rounded game. He's not the All Star everyone is pining for but he can run a team, shoots good, and provides some defense that's rare at the pg spot.

Gortat wants out and I'd love to have him in but don't see anything working for both of them.

Saint Louis wrote:

I think the best PG we could pursue would be Will Bynum (as someone else talked about on another thread). Unless the Lakers want to give up on Steve Nash, I don't see us adding a PG that will make much of a difference this year.

Will bynum would help us this year, but, not nearly enough to compete in a playoff series with any of the top teams. Detroit needs to figure out if Bynum is expendable. I don't see how Detroit can improve their team and keep Bynum. There's got to be a way we could get Bynum and help both us and Detroit.

I agree here Saint. And since he's all the rage, I'd take Bynum over Bledsoe all day.

I imagine Detroit wound't mind clearing some space, and maybe theres an ideal situation here where they'd like Raja in a mentoring role for their new 2 guard Brandon Knight. Actually, I think Bynum is expiring, so that'd be the whole bonus there, getting a defensive vet for a bit. They aren't resigning Bynum anyway.