Jazz/Bucks game thread

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I'm kind of torn here.....because while I was disappointed Favors didn't get more minutes in the second half with the numbers he was putting up, I was also glad to see Corbin ride it out with the lineup that brought them back, for the most part.

Big Al's injury has taught me one thing...he has got to be the odd man out this summer. I've felt this way all along, but that theory is being validated before our very eyes.

I agree with the first part, where you say Favors should have been in the game. but, I disagree with your conclusion about Big Al. Even though I like Kanter and Favors more than Big Al, Big Al is the type of center that would have been able to score from mid-range against Sanders and Dalembert. We didn't lose to the Bucks due to their Centers scoring, we lost because we couldn't match the Bucks' outside game. Big Al would have helped in this one.

Saint Louis wrote:

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I'm kind of torn here.....because while I was disappointed Favors didn't get more minutes in the second half with the numbers he was putting up, I was also glad to see Corbin ride it out with the lineup that brought them back, for the most part.

Big Al's injury has taught me one thing...he has got to be the odd man out this summer. I've felt this way all along, but that theory is being validated before our very eyes.

I agree with the first part, where you say Favors should have been in the game. but, I disagree with your conclusion about Big Al. Even though I like Kanter and Favors more than Big Al, Big Al is the type of center that would have been able to score from mid-range against Sanders and Dalembert. We didn't lose to the Bucks due to their Centers scoring, we lost because we couldn't match the Bucks' outside game. Big Al would have helped in this one.

I do see what your saying. However, I think the jazz would have still lost with Al in there. I don't think Favors, Kanter or Burks would have had the kind of game they did if Al would have been there.
I like Al a lot. Seems like a good guy. Seems to want to be in Utah, which is rare. However, overall I don't think he makes the jazz better. In fact, I think the jazz as a TEAM are worse off with him in there.
However, it's kind of an optical illusion, because he scores a lot of points and gets lots of double doubles. But I think the jazz, as a team, will be better off if they let Al walk.

- More and more games will be given away If coach insist in start "the starters" in the third (and to make it worse play them big minutes); tired to watch the second unit effort to be thrown away by Watson and Marvin...
- Marvin should not play in front of any of the other guys... he should be sat a couple rows behind the bench along with Watson; these dudes starting is just infuriating...
- Millsap... man... take care of that rounded orange thing please...
- Hayward... I don't know what happened to your pants... but please put them on again quickly... Reddick manhandled you boy... that's not good... and wear that black pad again, it makes you good...
- Oh.. almost forget... what a good center Favors can be... now we have a center logjam... should we trade Favors or Kanter

Saint Louis wrote:

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I'm kind of torn here.....because while I was disappointed Favors didn't get more minutes in the second half with the numbers he was putting up, I was also glad to see Corbin ride it out with the lineup that brought them back, for the most part.

Big Al's injury has taught me one thing...he has got to be the odd man out this summer. I've felt this way all along, but that theory is being validated before our very eyes.

I agree with the first part, where you say Favors should have been in the game. but, I disagree with your conclusion about Big Al. Even though I like Kanter and Favors more than Big Al, Big Al is the type of center that would have been able to score from mid-range against Sanders and Dalembert. We didn't lose to the Bucks due to their Centers scoring, we lost because we couldn't match the Bucks' outside game. Big Al would have helped in this one.

We lost because of Tyrone Corbin, flat out. He is creating a situation where our better players*, are having to dig out of a hole. Not only that, but he's doing it twice a game. Our bad players** put us in a hole, and our better players dug it out again. But then, our bad players put us in another hole, and our better players couldn't dig out of it a second time. They almost did, forcing overtime, but thats expecting too much or our guys, in any game, much less on the road against a good scoring team. The Jazz with Paul/Burks/Gordo/DC/Kanter/Favors would have smoke the Bucks, riding out that second quarter surge. Instead, Ty put in bums again. AGAIN.......and again......and again.....and again. Bye bye 6th seed, bye bye 7th seed, oh hello 8th seed. You'll be gone soon.


* Gordo/DC/Burks
** Marvin/Watson

Saint Louis wrote:

I don't blame Ty for this one. I would have put Foye back in as well. And, Millsap's 3 wasn't horrible (if he makes it we go into double overtime).

I'm a big DC fan, like everyone else here, but, there is one thing DC needs to learn: he needs to judge better when to leave his man for help defense. I've said this several times when everyone is praising DC's hustle (which I usually agree with): he doesn't always help the Jazz by playing all over the court on defense! When he leaves his man, he needs to make sure it doesn't result in his man getting an easier shot. DC needs to understand our defensive rotations, and understand where we won't have a defensive rotation to make up for him going out of position. We got burned a couple times in crunch-time by DC making the wrong defensive decision. Tonight, we had a great defensive team, and, we would have done better if DC had stayed on his man.

Solid point, I noticed that too. He wasn't the only one having trouble, but there were a couple times where he basically just left the best shooter on the court (Reddick) all by himself to completely overcommit defensively. I'm a big believer that playing good D in the NBA takes experience, experience is one thing that unit that finnished the game last night doesn't have, and it showed.

Mutangclan wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I'm kind of torn here.....because while I was disappointed Favors didn't get more minutes in the second half with the numbers he was putting up, I was also glad to see Corbin ride it out with the lineup that brought them back, for the most part.

Big Al's injury has taught me one thing...he has got to be the odd man out this summer. I've felt this way all along, but that theory is being validated before our very eyes.

I agree with the first part, where you say Favors should have been in the game. but, I disagree with your conclusion about Big Al. Even though I like Kanter and Favors more than Big Al, Big Al is the type of center that would have been able to score from mid-range against Sanders and Dalembert. We didn't lose to the Bucks due to their Centers scoring, we lost because we couldn't match the Bucks' outside game. Big Al would have helped in this one.

We lost because of Tyrone Corbin, flat out. He is creating a situation where our better players*, are having to dig out of a hole. Not only that, but he's doing it twice a game. Our bad players** put us in a hole, and our better players dug it out again. But then, our bad players put us in another hole, and our better players couldn't dig out of it a second time. They almost did, forcing overtime, but thats expecting too much or our guys, in any game, much less on the road against a good scoring team. The Jazz with Paul/Burks/Gordo/DC/Kanter/Favors would have smoke the Bucks, riding out that second quarter surge. Instead, Ty put in bums again. AGAIN.......and again......and again.....and again. Bye bye 6th seed, bye bye 7th seed, oh hello 8th seed. You'll be gone soon.


* Gordo/DC/Burks
** Marvin/Watson

Look, I get where you are comming from on starters and whatnot, but especially for last nights game it just doesn't really carry the water for me. The good players all played more than 30 minutes last night, the bad ones all played less than 20, and only 9 guys played in the game. If you flip the script and bring the bad players off the bench they still play 10-20 minutes, the bad guys are still bad and the good guys are still good and in the end it probably still comes down to missed shots and blown opportunitites.

I'm not totally defending Corbin, and I will gladly take up my torch and pichfork and join you if changes aren't made as guys get healthy, because with Mo and Al back in the lineup there is simply no excuse for playing Marvin, Tinsley, and Watson double digit minutes...ever. DC should start and Burks should be the ONLY backup PG. But in terms of last nights game I just don't really feel like it mattered.

TheMagnus wrote:

Look, I get where you are comming from on starters and whatnot, but especially for last nights game it just doesn't really carry the water for me. The good players all played more than 30 minutes last night, the bad ones all played less than 20, and only 9 guys played in the game. If you flip the script and bring the bad players off the bench they still play 10-20 minutes, the bad guys are still bad and the good guys are still good and in the end it probably still comes down to missed shots and blown opportunitites.

I'm not totally defending Corbin, and I will gladly take up my torch and pichfork and join you if changes aren't made as guys get healthy, because with Mo and Al back in the lineup there is simply no excuse for playing Marvin, Tinsley, and Watson double digit minutes...ever. DC should start and Burks should be the ONLY backup PG. But in terms of last nights game I just don't really feel like it mattered.

Magnus, how long are you planning on waiting "for changes to be made" ?? We've now lost the 6th seed, the 7th seed, and you and I both know the 8th seed is probably gone. We've been talking about it since December. There has been no excuse to play Marvin since then, yet here we are. If Corbin would be like other winning coaches, he would play the guys that give us the best chance to win. He would do whatever is best for the team. But he's not.

As for last nights game (and the last 20 probably), how many times are our better players expected to dig out of holes??? They dug out of one, dug out of another and almost pulled it out. But its a losing philosophy. You know those guys are so freaking tired of having to always try and come back on a team. If the "good guys" start, the holes aren't dug. You give DC a quick breather by inserting Marv. You dont start off with Marv etc.

As it stands now, Burks/GH/Paul/DC should all be 30mins plus. Fav just behind, and Kanter/Foye at 20 or so. The script doesn't just need to be flipped, but flipped and extended. Then, when our "bad guys" come in, they are going up against the other teams bench, and the effect isn't as crushing. And our good guys dont let those holes be dug, and this TEAM isn't constantly running in quicksand uphill.

TheMagnus wrote:

And how about Burks?!? whew....

Burks had six turnovers last night. So far he averages almost as many turnovers as assists. Unless this significantly changes, I am going to temper my enthusiasm about Burks as a backup point guard. In any case, and assuming we keep Mo, we need a new backup point guard from outside for next season.

For the rest of the season, however, and assuming MO back soon, I would like to see Mo and Tinsley as the primary point guards, and Burks continue to get a chance to grow and develop by getting more minutes at shooting guard, cutting in to Foye's minutes. JMO.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Look, I get where you are comming from on starters and whatnot, but especially for last nights game it just doesn't really carry the water for me. The good players all played more than 30 minutes last night, the bad ones all played less than 20, and only 9 guys played in the game. If you flip the script and bring the bad players off the bench they still play 10-20 minutes, the bad guys are still bad and the good guys are still good and in the end it probably still comes down to missed shots and blown opportunitites.

I'm not totally defending Corbin, and I will gladly take up my torch and pichfork and join you if changes aren't made as guys get healthy, because with Mo and Al back in the lineup there is simply no excuse for playing Marvin, Tinsley, and Watson double digit minutes...ever. DC should start and Burks should be the ONLY backup PG. But in terms of last nights game I just don't really feel like it mattered.

Magnus, how long are you planning on waiting "for changes to be made" ?? We've now lost the 6th seed, the 7th seed, and you and I both know the 8th seed is probably gone. We've been talking about it since December. There has been no excuse to play Marvin since then, yet here we are. If Corbin would be like other winning coaches, he would play the guys that give us the best chance to win. He would do whatever is best for the team. But he's not.

As for last nights game (and the last 20 probably), how many times are our better players expected to dig out of holes??? They dug out of one, dug out of another and almost pulled it out. But its a losing philosophy. You know those guys are so freaking tired of having to always try and come back on a team. If the "good guys" start, the holes aren't dug. You give DC a quick breather by inserting Marv. You dont start off with Marv etc.

As it stands now, Burks/GH/Paul/DC should all be 30mins plus. Fav just behind, and Kanter/Foye at 20 or so. The script doesn't just need to be flipped, but flipped and extended. Then, when our "bad guys" come in, they are going up against the other teams bench, and the effect isn't as crushing. And our good guys dont let those holes be dug, and this TEAM isn't constantly running in quicksand uphill.

With all of the injuries things have been in flux, and I think Corbin is as worried about messing with what he's got going with the second unit as much as he is about fixing the first unit. I don't dissagree that this is a bad way to play and that Corbin has been screwing this up but I don't think the effects are as big as you and others seem to.

I can see why (again not saing it's right, just saying I get it) Corbin may want to wait to get Mo back to make a starting lineup change. That lineup is still massively flawed, but before Mo went down it was Foye that looked like ass and Marvin was playing ok, so I can see him thinking that he'd like to see how that unit looks now before making the change.

The Jazz have the toughest schedule by far of the 4 teams fighting for the last 3 playoff spots, and they are only 1 game out of 6th, so I would rule anything out at this point. These overtime losses have been killers, and the Jazz are going to have to win some games that they are "supposed" to lose if they are going to salvage this season.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Look, I get where you are comming from on starters and whatnot, but especially for last nights game it just doesn't really carry the water for me. The good players all played more than 30 minutes last night, the bad ones all played less than 20, and only 9 guys played in the game. If you flip the script and bring the bad players off the bench they still play 10-20 minutes, the bad guys are still bad and the good guys are still good and in the end it probably still comes down to missed shots and blown opportunitites.

I'm not totally defending Corbin, and I will gladly take up my torch and pichfork and join you if changes aren't made as guys get healthy, because with Mo and Al back in the lineup there is simply no excuse for playing Marvin, Tinsley, and Watson double digit minutes...ever. DC should start and Burks should be the ONLY backup PG. But in terms of last nights game I just don't really feel like it mattered.

Magnus, how long are you planning on waiting "for changes to be made" ?? We've now lost the 6th seed, the 7th seed, and you and I both know the 8th seed is probably gone. We've been talking about it since December. There has been no excuse to play Marvin since then, yet here we are. If Corbin would be like other winning coaches, he would play the guys that give us the best chance to win. He would do whatever is best for the team. But he's not.

As for last nights game (and the last 20 probably), how many times are our better players expected to dig out of holes??? They dug out of one, dug out of another and almost pulled it out. But its a losing philosophy. You know those guys are so freaking tired of having to always try and come back on a team. If the "good guys" start, the holes aren't dug. You give DC a quick breather by inserting Marv. You dont start off with Marv etc.

As it stands now, Burks/GH/Paul/DC should all be 30mins plus. Fav just behind, and Kanter/Foye at 20 or so. The script doesn't just need to be flipped, but flipped and extended. Then, when our "bad guys" come in, they are going up against the other teams bench, and the effect isn't as crushing. And our good guys dont let those holes be dug, and this TEAM isn't constantly running in quicksand uphill.

Yes Sir, this is what I feel as well. Constantly making the same mistake every game (the starters), but then making a decision to play the guys that are better later in the game doesn't excuse making that mistake at the beginning of EVERY game. Are Watson, Marv & maybe Foye all related to Ty? Cause he's treating them like he's a Jr. Jazz coach who is forcing his kids into the starting line-up despite the fact that is kids are the worst players on the team.

And, honestly, if the Jazz would have won the MIL game, I'd still be saying the same thing. I hate that I spend half of the time I watch my beloved Jazz, shaking my head, wondering what the hell Ty is thinking. I don't need a great coach on the team, just one who isn't making things harder than it needs to be.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

And how about Burks?!? whew....

Burks had six turnovers last night. So far he averages almost as many turnovers as assists. Unless this significantly changes, I am going to temper my enthusiasm about Burks as a backup point guard. In any case, and assuming we keep Mo, we need a new backup point guard from outside for next season.

For the rest of the season, however, and assuming MO back soon, I would like to see Mo and Tinsley as the primary point guards, and Burks continue to get a chance to grow and develop by getting more minutes at shooting guard, cutting in to Foye's minutes. JMO.

I actually agree with you on the first part, but I'm not sure about the second. Even with his recent surge Burks hasn't been spectacular, he's just been so much better than Watson and Tinsley that he seems spectacular by comparison. I don't think he deserves minutes over Mo (unless he comes back terrible) or Foye (unless he's off), and his natural position is definitely SG.

Here's the thing about the PG position right now, it is abundantly clear that Corbin inexplicably feels that Watson and Tinsley are essentially equivalent players with slightly different styles, so I think either replaces both of them or neither. The truth is that Watson is litterally the worst PG in the NBA, and it's not even close (though now Fisher is giving him a run for his money), he is historically bad. Last night the Bucks completely stopped guarding him, blatantly, obviously, didn't even care when he got the ball, and he still didn't score a point. Tinsley is better, and he's an underrated defender (actually better than Watson), but he's still not good.

I get the notion that we want a PG to be a distributor, but let me explain why whatever benifit we think we get from that is completely offset (and more) by Burks skill set.

What happens when Burks is in the game is addition by subtraction. The first thing that happens is it becomes PG by commitee, so you don't have the worst player on the court with the ball in his hands most of the time, that results in greater offensive efficiency. The second thing that happens is that teams have to guard Burks, not only on the perimeter but they also have to repect him off the dribble, that results in greater offensive efficiency because it opens the court. The third thing that happens is that Burks is a good defensive rebounder and athletic/active defender, that results in greater defensive efficiency.

You mentioned Turnovers, even though Burks does turn it over a lot, he is still better than both Tinsley and Watson in turnovers per minute and, more importantly, an astonishing 33% of Watson and Tinsleys usage posessions end in a turnover, as compared to 15% of Burks.

These assertions are backed up by the data...

Jazz team and opponent efficency numbers, on court, for each the Jazz Backup PG's:

PLAYER JAZZ OPP
Burks 109.6 103.2
Tinsley 107.0 105.6
Watson 103.9 108.4

For this team, Burks is hands down the best choice for backup PG.

Love the fact that favors made me look like an ass! Corbin has to be the worst coach in the league!

Mutangclan wrote:

<...> We've now lost the 6th seed, the 7th seed, and you and I both know the 8th seed is probably gone. We've been talking about it since December. There has been no excuse to play Marvin since then, yet here we are. If Corbin would be like other winning coaches, he would play the guys that give us the best chance to win. He would do whatever is best for the team. But he's not.

As for last nights game (and the last 20 probably), how many times are our better players expected to dig out of holes??? They dug out of one, dug out of another and almost pulled it out. But its a losing philosophy. You know those guys are so freaking tired of having to always try and come back on a team. If the "good guys" start, the holes aren't dug. You give DC a quick breather by inserting Marv. You dont start off with Marv etc.

As it stands now, Burks/GH/Paul/DC should all be 30mins plus. Fav just behind, and Kanter/Foye at 20 or so. The script doesn't just need to be flipped, but flipped and extended. Then, when our "bad guys" come in, they are going up against the other teams bench, and the effect isn't as crushing. And our good guys dont let those holes be dug, and this TEAM isn't constantly running in quicksand uphill.

Couldn't have said it better.
I would add that had coach started Demarre over Marvin, Jazz would have jumped into a double digit lead in the first minutes of the game. Instead...

A little addition to my other ranting about Marv/DC/Corbin.

Foye and Al starting together makes sense. They somewhat compliment each other, and I've mentioned this.

But while we're getting nothing from Foye now lately, and for the second game in a row, it's very obviously because Al is not in there. Foye is great a being the outlet for a spot up 3. So once again, Ty has screwed this up. You can't just insert Favors into the starting lineup and expect him to seamlessly fit in. Since there has been a change, it makes sense for Kanter and Foye to be on the court together. UnderKanter is a back to the basket, dump it in there, post up guy. Putting Foye out there, once again, would compliment Kanters game and give them both, and the offense, spacing. Which equals higher percentage shooting.

Not that I expect Corbin to do that.....................f Corbin:
Corbin admitted he's considering making further changes, but he wouldn't divulge what those might be.

"We'll see what gives us the best chance," Corbin said. "We may change a little bit and see what help us."
Riiiiiight, sure Tyrone. PROVE IT.

Btw Zero, as I was watching that game, in the 3rd quarter and into the 4th and OT, I too already was thinking about my "f Corbin" post I would be putting up, win or lose. Didn't even matter the outcome. It was the Corbin was putting them in an uphill battle, and wasn't doing the things that give the Jazz the best chance to win.

Mutangclan wrote:

A little addition to my other ranting about Marv/DC/Corbin.

Foye and Al starting together makes sense. They somewhat compliment each other, and I've mentioned this.

But while we're getting nothing from Foye now lately, and for the second game in a row, it's very obviously because Al is not in there. Foye is great a being the outlet for a spot up 3. So once again, Ty has screwed this up. You can't just insert Favors into the starting lineup and expect him to seamlessly fit in. Since there has been a change, it makes sense for Kanter and Foye to be on the court together. UnderKanter is a back to the basket, dump it in there, post up guy. Putting Foye out there, once again, would compliment Kanters game and give them both, and the offense, spacing. Which equals higher percentage shooting.

Not that I expect Corbin to do that.....................f Corbin:
Corbin admitted he's considering making further changes, but he wouldn't divulge what those might be.

"We'll see what gives us the best chance," Corbin said. "We may change a little bit and see what help us."
Riiiiiight, sure Tyrone. PROVE IT.

Btw Zero, as I was watching that game, in the 3rd quarter and into the 4th and OT, I too already was thinking about my "f Corbin" post I would be putting up, win or lose. Didn't even matter the outcome. It was the Corbin was putting them in an uphill battle, and wasn't doing the things that give the Jazz the best chance to win.

I think you are overthinking this, reaching a bit, and I'm not sure why...

Jefferson is terrible at kicking the ball out of the post to 3 pt shooters, when he passes for an assist (which isn't often) he's usually hitting a cutter after he faces up to the basket. Another thing Jefferson has proven, more than almost any other player in the NBA, is that it really doesn't matter if he has space or not, he's just going to do what he does. If anything it's Millsap that needs a guy like Foye and vice versa.

Foye is just off right now, this is about the third time this season he's had a multigame stretch like this, he'll turn it around with or without Jefferson.

Be interesting to see if "further changes" means anything at all to Corbin, or if it just means he's waiting for Mo to come back and save the day, or if he's going to make another genius sideways move like starting Favors in place of Millsap.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

A little addition to my other ranting about Marv/DC/Corbin.

Foye and Al starting together makes sense. They somewhat compliment each other, and I've mentioned this.

But while we're getting nothing from Foye now lately, and for the second game in a row, it's very obviously because Al is not in there. Foye is great a being the outlet for a spot up 3. So once again, Ty has screwed this up. You can't just insert Favors into the starting lineup and expect him to seamlessly fit in. Since there has been a change, it makes sense for Kanter and Foye to be on the court together. UnderKanter is a back to the basket, dump it in there, post up guy. Putting Foye out there, once again, would compliment Kanters game and give them both, and the offense, spacing. Which equals higher percentage shooting.

Not that I expect Corbin to do that.....................f Corbin:
Corbin admitted he's considering making further changes, but he wouldn't divulge what those might be.

"We'll see what gives us the best chance," Corbin said. "We may change a little bit and see what help us."
Riiiiiight, sure Tyrone. PROVE IT.

Btw Zero, as I was watching that game, in the 3rd quarter and into the 4th and OT, I too already was thinking about my "f Corbin" post I would be putting up, win or lose. Didn't even matter the outcome. It was the Corbin was putting them in an uphill battle, and wasn't doing the things that give the Jazz the best chance to win.

I think you are overthinking this, reaching a bit, and I'm not sure why...

Jefferson is terrible at kicking the ball out of the post to 3 pt shooters, when he passes for an assist (which isn't often) he's usually hitting a cutter after he faces up to the basket. Another thing Jefferson has proven, more than almost any other player in the NBA, is that it really doesn't matter if he has space or not, he's just going to do what he does. If anything it's Millsap that needs a guy like Foye and vice versa.

Foye is just off right now, this is about the third time this season he's had a multigame stretch like this, he'll turn it around with or without Jefferson.

Be interesting to see if "further changes" means anything at all to Corbin, or if it just means he's waiting for Mo to come back and save the day, or if he's going to make another genius sideways move like starting Favors in place of Millsap.

You're over thinking my over thinking......

I just meant what the defense has to do, they have to stay out on Foye, and also have to stay home on Al. Just more natural spacing. Not anything to do with Al passing out or anything.

And yea, hah, I predict sideways move: Jeremy Evans starts for Marv.......although that'd still be better.

Mutangclan wrote:

You're over thinking my over thinking......

I just meant what the defense has to do, they have to stay out on Foye, and also have to stay home on Al. Just more natural spacing. Not anything to do with Al passing out or anything.

And yea, hah, I predict sideways move: Jeremy Evans starts for Marv.......although that'd still be better.

Evans for Marv would be awesome, I'll go on record saying that would be a great move right now.

TheMagnus wrote:

What happens when Burks is in the game is addition by subtraction. The first thing that happens is it becomes PG by commitee, so you don't have the worst player on the court with the ball in his hands most of the time, that results in greater offensive efficiency. The second thing that happens is that teams have to guard Burks, not only on the perimeter but they also have to repect him off the dribble, that results in greater offensive efficiency because it opens the court. The third thing that happens is that Burks is a good defensive rebounder and athletic/active defender, that results in greater defensive efficiency.

Just to be a little contrary, I suspect all of our backup point guards have seen greater team offensive and defensive efficiency when playing with the second unit. After all, our second unit has been winning all season long. And this is probably the reason Watson and Tinsley keep leapfrogging each other in to the primary backup starter role when Mo is out. Hayward, DC, Favors and Kanter help make them look good when they are playing with the second unit.

TheMagnus wrote:

You mentioned Turnovers, even though Burks does turn it over a lot, he is still better than both Tinsley and Watson in turnovers per minute and, more importantly, an astonishing 33% of Watson and Tinsleys usage possessions end in a turnover, as compared to 15% of Burks.

I am not sure Burks is a better point guard with respect to turnovers. Over the last ten games, a period where Burks has played a lot of point guard, he has had 4.5 TOs per 48 mins to go along with 5 assists per 48 mins. Tinsley was 3.5 TOs per 48 mins to go along with 11.1 asst/48 over the same period, where he likely played backup PG with the same players. Over the last five games, Burks has produced more turnovers than assists --- unheard of for a point guard.

But after making the above points just to be contrary, I will concede to your arguments to continue to play Burks as the backup point guard for now. He is an exciting young player on the rise --- though better suited to playing shooting guard in future seasons.

Crunchtime1 wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

What happens when Burks is in the game is addition by subtraction. The first thing that happens is it becomes PG by commitee, so you don't have the worst player on the court with the ball in his hands most of the time, that results in greater offensive efficiency. The second thing that happens is that teams have to guard Burks, not only on the perimeter but they also have to repect him off the dribble, that results in greater offensive efficiency because it opens the court. The third thing that happens is that Burks is a good defensive rebounder and athletic/active defender, that results in greater defensive efficiency.

Just to be a little contrary, I suspect all of our backup point guards have seen greater team offensive and defensive efficiency when playing with the second unit. After all, our second unit has been winning all season long. And this is probably the reason Watson and Tinsley keep leapfrogging each other in to the primary backup starter role when Mo is out. Hayward, DC, Favors and Kanter help make them look good when they are playing with the second unit.

I've been watching it all year, Tinsley does, Watson does not. Watson is a negative factor no matter who he plays with, which is why I continue to be dumbfounded that he gets minutes. I felt the same way last year, which is why this year is that much more aggravating.

Last night after the game, as the teams were exiting the court, Favors seemed pissed. He had a pissed off look on his face and was mumbling to himself. Did anyone else see this? Is this just the product of a competitor that hates to lose? Or do you think that maybe he is, like the rest of us, getting fed up with Corbin's antics?

The Voice of Reason wrote:

Last night after the game, as the teams were exiting the court, Favors seemed pissed. He had a pissed off look on his face and was mumbling to himself. Did anyone else see this? Is this just the product of a competitor that hates to lose? Or do you think that maybe he is, like the rest of us, getting fed up with Corbin's antics?

I was thinking the same thing, Like why the hell did'nt coach put me back in to win this game? Slide Sap to the 3 and Fav kanter linekup would've killed it. Gordo was off so maybe DC and burks. We would've been looking good and favors would have had a smile with 30 points 20 rebs. Even the other teams players where asking if he was hurt and whats up with your dumbazzcoach?
Ty had a pretty good first year coaching i thought? but this year has been anything butt. Ty just cause i guy has been in the league longer aint a green light for being our starter. I hope to hell we dont throw a bunch of money at Paul or AL! I do not want Favors or Kanter coming off the bench the next five years because we have older slower players we can start? Both young guns are ready for big time minutes and one if not both will be looking like allstars. Corbin future is with the youth and if he pisses them off enough to leave he'll be the one gone, so he better start showing them some love the rest the way.
Why no trade was made was a huge mistake even if its just unloading for a high pick in the draft three years from now.KOC missed the boat and i'm surprised CJ aint going after that rather than Kanter and Hayward?

There is a decent argument to be made that the line-up that overcame the 10 point deficit had reason to finish it out. However, you do have a good point about sliding Paul over to the three to make room for Favors. But such a move would have been a creative coaching move, which we know that Ty is not allowed to do.

And just because it hasn't been stated enough....seriously, call a 3 point game winner play for stone cold Foye? And then if that wasn't asinine enough, call one for Sap? Horrific coaching.

MTJazz wrote:

There is a decent argument to be made that the line-up that overcame the 10 point deficit had reason to finish it out. However, you do have a good point about sliding Paul over to the three to make room for Favors. But such a move would have been a creative coaching move, which we know that Ty is not allowed to do.

And just because it hasn't been stated enough....seriously, call a 3 point game winner play for stone cold Foye? And then if that wasn't asinine enough, call one for Sap? Horrific coaching.

All the ranting I made at Corbin, but this was not an issue for me at all. I mean, Kanter played GREAT. He played great, was getting key rebounds, tips etc. He made that beautiful running hook that was almost the game winner. He had a good look at a putback after gaining great position, but just missed it. He even rebounded Pauls missed 3 for a quick 2pts. Kanter was great, and sometimes you have to go with your gut, which is what Corbin did.

I didn't think the substitutions were bad in the 4th and OT, except for that Foye move, yea. Because all the other rotations were bad, and backwards, that meant Foye was stone cold, so yea, FAIL. But Pauls wide open 3 I was great with, he's made plenty of those, and had he been just a step closer, I think it would have been good. Not to mention he was the only one open.

Mutangclan wrote:

All the ranting I made at Corbin, but this was not an issue for me at all. I mean, Kanter played GREAT. He played great, was getting key rebounds, tips etc. He made that beautiful running hook that was almost the game winner. He had a good look at a putback after gaining great position, but just missed it. He even rebounded Pauls missed 3 for a quick 2pts. Kanter was great, and sometimes you have to go with your gut, which is what Corbin did.

I didn't think the substitutions were bad in the 4th and OT, except for that Foye move, yea. Because all the other rotations were bad, and backwards, that meant Foye was stone cold, so yea, FAIL. But Pauls wide open 3 I was great with, he's made plenty of those, and had he been just a step closer, I think it would have been good. Not to mention he was the only one open.

Completely agree with all of this.

The thing I hate about Corbins inbounds plays in the 4th quarter is that they rarely make good use of a second pass or good movement AFTER the ball comes inbounds, they seem to almost totaly rely on either somebody getting open right away and if a shot doesn't go up immediately ti turns into an ISO, which are two of the easiest plays in basketball to defend. Great inbounds plays (just watch the Spurs for some examples) have multiple options both before AND after the ball comes inbounds, and I just don't see that from this team.

Mutangclan wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

There is a decent argument to be made that the line-up that overcame the 10 point deficit had reason to finish it out. However, you do have a good point about sliding Paul over to the three to make room for Favors. But such a move would have been a creative coaching move, which we know that Ty is not allowed to do.

And just because it hasn't been stated enough....seriously, call a 3 point game winner play for stone cold Foye? And then if that wasn't asinine enough, call one for Sap? Horrific coaching.

All the ranting I made at Corbin, but this was not an issue for me at all. I mean, Kanter played GREAT. He played great, was getting key rebounds, tips etc. He made that beautiful running hook that was almost the game winner. He had a good look at a putback after gaining great position, but just missed it. He even rebounded Pauls missed 3 for a quick 2pts. Kanter was great, and sometimes you have to go with your gut, which is what Corbin did.

I didn't think the substitutions were bad in the 4th and OT, except for that Foye move, yea. Because all the other rotations were bad, and backwards, that meant Foye was stone cold, so yea, FAIL. But Pauls wide open 3 I was great with, he's made plenty of those, and had he been just a step closer, I think it would have been good. Not to mention he was the only one open.

It wasn't an issue for me either. As well as Favors was playing, I am actually glad Corbin continued to let the guys play that brought them back...I was ok totally with it. I really was. I probably would have done the same thing.
My point was....Favors looked pissed, and so I guess the real question is: Does anyone think Favors is starting to be disgruntled? I would prefer a completely gruntled Favors.