Millsap vs Dirk

So every game is like a playoff game this late in the season. Although I'm a big Millsap fan and Dirk hater - I believe in the laters skillset more than Pauls. It's time for Millsap to step it up. If he's an elite - or even an above-average player- Paul needs to help win some important games.

aliveandkickin wrote:

So every game is like a playoff game this late in the season. Although I'm a big Millsap fan and Dirk hater - I believe in the laters skillset more than Pauls. It's time for Millsap to step it up. If he's an elite - or even an above-average player- Paul needs to help win some important games.

Well he's not elite, but he is above average, and if the Jazz treated him like their best player, or relied on him like he was their best player, then I would agree with you, but they don't. Hell, since mo came back and Hayward entered the starting lineup he's lucky to be the third option, so we're all stuck with the Jefferson-Dirk show...yaaayyyy

aliveandkickin wrote:

So every game is like a playoff game this late in the season. Although I'm a big Millsap fan and Dirk hater - I believe in the laters skillset more than Pauls. It's time for Millsap to step it up. If he's an elite - or even an above-average player- Paul needs to help win some important games.

Alive, I don't think it's Millsap against Dirk we need to worry about. It's the Jazz against the Mavs.

Millsap and Dirk are very different types of PFs. They each have their style of games. Dirk, objectively, is a more valuable player for a team than Millsap. Dirk always makes an effort, plays good defense, has tremendous 3pt capability, an almost undefendable mid-range shot, the ability to take the ball to the rim, the skills to make his defender either foul him or let him score, and, an incredibly good ft%. Millsap always makes an effort, has a hefty body mass, and has a decent mid-range game. The Jazz can expect Millsap to give it his all, but, they can't expect Millsap to be a better player than Dirk.

Of course, on any given night, Millsap can play out of his head good, and be better than any opponent. (It's just, you can say the same thing about 100 other NBA players, seriously. To play in the NBA you have to have that capability. Millsap, DC, HeyHay, or even Watson has the potential to have a LeBron-like domination game-- it's just certain players are more likely to pull it off.)

Millsap:

7-11 FG, 15 pts, 9 reb, 1 ast, 2 stl, 2 blk, 2 TO in 27 minutes

Dirk:

7-13 FG, 17 pts, 6 reb, 2 ast, 1 stl, 0 blk, 1 TO in 26 minutes


Mavs win.

Well, the Dallas veterans outlast Utah. Millsap, overall good game, but no real weapon when he's needed most. Now Dirk is healthy the Mavs are surging.
I just want Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) to play the youngsters now.
It's obvious Jefferson's and Millsaps defense can't get it done. Pretty sad that Mike James at 36 goes off.
Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin shouldn't get minutes IMO. They're better spent on "real" players. Oh, and Favors? He doesn't have a go-to move yet. He can't get his defender leaning one way and finish the other yet... isn't that something he should know by now?
Last thing to end the gripe ; KOC's Harris for Marvin lost us the playoffs this yr. The small improvements Harris brings would've made the difference ...a lesson tolearn from; keep quality guards that can help win games. DON'T go with the one-dimentional "vets" that aren't in your future plans.

aliveandkickin wrote:

Well, the Dallas veterans outlast Utah. Millsap, overall good game, but no real weapon when he's needed most. Now Dirk is healthy the Mavs are surging.
I just want Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) to play the youngsters now.
It's obvious Jefferson's and Millsaps defense can't get it done. Pretty sad that Mike James at 36 goes off.
Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin shouldn't get minutes IMO. They're better spent on "real" players. Oh, and Favors? He doesn't have a go-to move yet. He can't get his defender leaning one way and finish the other yet... isn't that something he should know by now?
Last thing to end the gripe ; KOC's Harris for Marvin lost us the playoffs this yr. The small improvements Harris brings would've made the difference ...a lesson tolearn from; keep quality guards that can help win games. DON'T go with the one-dimentional "vets" that aren't in your future plans.

Favors is sadly beginning to look a little one dimensional. Good D and little O. That will make him a long term bubble starter in this league unless he can do enough off-season work and maturation to improve his post O. I agree, that Tinsley and Watson should not see one minute more playing time for the rest of the year. Marvin? Sure, a few minutes each game since he's coming back next year, but that is it. But has been discussed to no end, Ty isn't really going to change things up until the Jazz are mathematically eliminated, which is sadly a long ways off at this point. Twelve games to go and given the bunch up between the Lakers, Jazz and Mavs the earliest that is going to happen is about 5-6 games.

MTJazz wrote:

aliveandkickin wrote:

Well, the Dallas veterans outlast Utah. Millsap, overall good game, but no real weapon when he's needed most. Now Dirk is healthy the Mavs are surging.
I just want Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) to play the youngsters now.
It's obvious Jefferson's and Millsaps defense can't get it done. Pretty sad that Mike James at 36 goes off.
Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin shouldn't get minutes IMO. They're better spent on "real" players. Oh, and Favors? He doesn't have a go-to move yet. He can't get his defender leaning one way and finish the other yet... isn't that something he should know by now?
Last thing to end the gripe ; KOC's Harris for Marvin lost us the playoffs this yr. The small improvements Harris brings would've made the difference ...a lesson tolearn from; keep quality guards that can help win games. DON'T go with the one-dimentional "vets" that aren't in your future plans.

Favors is sadly beginning to look a little one dimensional. Good D and little O. That will make him a long term bubble starter in this league unless he can do enough off-season work and maturation to improve his post O. I agree, that Tinsley and Watson should not see one minute more playing time for the rest of the year. Marvin? Sure, a few minutes each game since he's coming back next year, but that is it. But has been discussed to no end, Ty isn't really going to change things up until the Jazz are mathematically eliminated, which is sadly a long ways off at this point. Twelve games to go and given the bunch up between the Lakers, Jazz and Mavs the earliest that is going to happen is about 5-6 games.

Definitely disagree with you guys on Favors, dude is only 21, he's got a lot of learning left to do. Tonight's game wouldn't even have been that bad if he hadn't turned it over every other time he touched it.

Like I said before the game, it would be nice if the Jazz actually used Millsap like a weapon, especially on this team, instead they treat him like just another tool.

Mags, Millsap is an 'opportunity' player. He doesn't have the moves or the size to be a guy they can just 'go to'*. There's 'good players' and 'good players'. Millsap is a good player but the team doesn't get a better result if they run 30 plays for him. Dirk may not, at this point, be a better overall player, but if the Mavs go to him repeatedly, he DOES have moves and shots that he can force. Different types of 'good player'. (and I'm just using Dirk as an example, not really a head-to-head comparison)

Millsap, AND the Jazz would be better off accepting this

(speaking of Millsap, his effort the other night in what you'd expect to be a total mismatch against Duncan, was heroic, inspirational, great.

*-part of that is just that he doesn't get calls, and that means he can't force the action, flail his arms, and get points.)

Millsap was rolling in the third. Defense, offense, rebounding. And the Ty Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) blew it again. Take out Millsap, leave in Al, bring in Tinsley instead of Burks......fml Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013), just you personally fml.

Trollificus wrote:

Mags, Millsap is an 'opportunity' player. He doesn't have the moves or the size to be a guy they can just 'go to'*. There's 'good players' and 'good players'. Millsap is a good player but the team doesn't get a better result if they run 30 plays for him. Dirk may not, at this point, be a better overall player, but if the Mavs go to him repeatedly, he DOES have moves and shots that he can force. Different types of 'good player'. (and I'm just using Dirk as an example, not really a head-to-head comparison)

Millsap, AND the Jazz would be better off accepting this

(speaking of Millsap, his effort the other night in what you'd expect to be a total mismatch against Duncan, was heroic, inspirational, great.

*-part of that is just that he doesn't get calls, and that means he can't force the action, flail his arms, and get points.)

While in the big picture you are right, Millsap is best suited as a complimentary player (one of the best in that role in the NBA) and not a "go-to" guy, given the fact that everything about this team is sub-optimal, and my comments were specifically about this team, I'd say the Jazz have already accepted what you say, whether or not they are better for it is dubious at best.

Your assertion actually got me thinking, what is Millsap like when he is the "go-to" guy? have we seen that? The closest thing would be when Jefferson is out but Millsap is playing wouldn't it?

Over the last two seasons Millsap has played 6 games without Al Jefferson in the lineup, 3 this season 3 last season. In all but one of those games Millsap led the team in shot attempts, indicating that he was picking up the offensive load in Jeffersons absence. Here are Millsaps average numbers in those games...


7.2-16.7 FG (43%), 20.3 pts, 11.7 reb, 2.8 ast, 1.5 stl in 38 minutes

Compared to Jeffersons #'s...

8.2-17.1 FG (48%), 18.9 pts, 10.0 reb, 2.3 ast, 1 stl in 36 minutes

It's obvious here that offensively Millsap is most efficient when he is not the focus of the offense (as we both agreed),but even though he only shot 43% fg he and Jefferson have almost identical TS% in this comparison, Millsap is 50% and Jefferson is 51%, because Millsap averaged 8 FT's a game in those games.

My eyes and the numbers tell me Millsap does have the moves and he leads the team in both FT's made and attempted per game, is second only to Hayward (5.7 vs. 5.9) in FT's per minute, and draws over 40% of the teams FT's when he is on the court. During this recent stretch of fail awesomeness Jeffersons usage has gone up while his production has gone down, and conversely Millsaps production and usage have been consistent, but his minutes have gone down. It was the same story earlier in the season, Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) started to cut into Millsaps minutes while the team struggled and everybody started asking what was wrong with Millsap. Then Millsaps minutes went up, his production went up, wins went up, rinse and repeat. It aint rocket science.

I think if this Jazz team was to make Jefferson on the block the second option in the offense, the thing you go to when the play you have run for someone else doesn't produce an easy bucket, and focus on getting the ball in the hands of Hayward and Millsap earlier in the shot clock they would be better for it.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Definitely disagree with you guys on Favors, dude is only 21, he's got a lot of learning left to do. Tonight's game wouldn't even have been that bad if he hadn't turned it over every other time he touched it.

Like I said before the game, it would be nice if the Jazz actually used Millsap like a weapon, especially on this team, instead they treat him like just another tool.

Not saying "give up on Favors" as yes, he is only 21, but this is the conclusion of his third NBA season and by now we should be seeing more development like we've seen in GH and Kanter, (the latter in his second season and younger!) Did you notice that sequence when Kanter took Kaman 3 straight times, one with a drop step, one with a hook and one on a jumper? That there is O skillz! Favors can be a beast around the rim on both O and D but for whatever reason it isn't that hard for other teams to take him out of his 0 - (keep him off the rim) or let him foul his way off the floor. He has no reliable shot outside of 6 feet and his footwork is absent; he relies on pure athleticism. He either comes back next year with some post moves and shows he is what we all hope he can become or becomes trade bait since GM's like you, who see that number "21", physique, and athleticism and decide they are going to steal him in exchange for getting robbed of assets the Jazz see as more valuable. I'm not convinced that Favors is starting PF/C material on a good team. I think his time is up by the trade deadline next year - his play either won't command that much money to extend (still a project), in which the Jazz do it, or they find a GM who thinks they are better at player development.

As for Sap, enough has been said and we all know who he is. If he wants to sign a reasonable contract, Welcome Back Sap! He is a great rotation player. I'm probably not the only one, (think Kevin O'Lindsey), who sees that as well. They aren't going to overpay him simply because he is a good player who has been around a long time but sure, we'd love to have you on the team Paul. As said many times before, if Sap is your best player you aren't going very far in the West.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Definitely disagree with you guys on Favors, dude is only 21, he's got a lot of learning left to do. Tonight's game wouldn't even have been that bad if he hadn't turned it over every other time he touched it.

Like I said before the game, it would be nice if the Jazz actually used Millsap like a weapon, especially on this team, instead they treat him like just another tool.

Not saying "give up on Favors" as yes, he is only 21, but this is the conclusion of his third NBA season and by now we should be seeing more development like we've seen in GH and Kanter, (the latter in his second season and younger!) Did you notice that sequence when Kanter took Kaman 3 straight times, one with a drop step, one with a hook and one on a jumper? That there is O skillz! Favors can be a beast around the rim on both O and D but for whatever reason it isn't that hard for other teams to take him out of his 0 - (keep him off the rim) or let him foul his way off the floor. He has no reliable shot outside of 6 feet and his footwork is absent; he relies on pure athleticism. He either comes back next year with some post moves and shows he is what we all hope he can become or becomes trade bait since GM's like you, who see that number "21", physique, and athleticism and decide they are going to steal him in exchange for getting robbed of assets the Jazz see as more valuable. I'm not convinced that Favors is starting PF/C material on a good team. I think his time is up by the trade deadline next year - his play either won't command that much money to extend (still a project), in which the Jazz do it, or they find a GM who thinks they are better at player development.

As for Sap, enough has been said and we all know who he is. If he wants to sign a reasonable contract, Welcome Back Sap! He is a great rotation player. I'm probably not the only one, (think Kevin O'Lindsey), who sees that as well. They aren't going to overpay him simply because he is a good player who has been around a long time but sure, we'd love to have you on the team Paul. As said many times before, if Sap is your best player you aren't going very far in the West.

Millsap is our best player, so ya, here we are. I will say though, playing your best player the 4th most minutes on the team, as has been the case with Millsap over the last 8 games, does yeild rather predictable results (1-7).

Well I'd say your assessment of Favors and Kanter is a fairly typical overvaluation of offense in NBA big men. Have we not learned that lesson yet as Jazz fans? We've got nearly a decade of trying to get somewhere with big men that are elite offensively and sub par defensively and how far has that got us?

It's all that trade bait talk that I find nonsensical, as if Kanter and Favors are mutually exclusive.

Truth is Kanter and Favors are really nicely complimented to eachother. It's clear Kanter has an Alpha-dog scorers mentality on the offensive end, and Favors has always said that he wants to control the game from the defensive end.

So I guess I would say who gives a damn if he's got post moves? If he comes back and can't do anything but dunk and pass but continues to evolve into an elite interior defender he'll be worth every dime we can spend on him.

Word (I like hip-hop at times so I'm allowed to say that). Favors can be an Ibaka or one with a go-to jumper that opens up his drive. That'll be the difference between being an 8 mill player or 15 mill one that the Jazz can rely upon every yr to make a run in the playoffs. His footwork will come, I hope, or he's a Duncan without the scoring. I think he needs patience and we'll see him bustoutwith maximizing his touches and passing skills as well.
Thing is, without paying luxury tax, the Jazz need multifaceted players on both ends. Just having Kanter (the lantern) being the threat on offense makes the Jazz too limited ...the old five player theory of five guys that make around 10 mill a yr is how the Jazz's future looks brightest.
If Favors does turn into a 15 mill a yr guy, my guess it'll be when he's 28 or 29 and he may want to bolt for endorsements then....which gives plenty of time for him, Lantern, and Hayward to go off here.
Surround those three with a few pg's like Jarrett Jack, Mo Williams, and Burks and a tweener like Millsap and they can be great, but Favors has to develop as well as the other youth.
It's a shame we didn't get value for Jefferson in picks and possibly expiring contracts where our youth could still be retained and developed but the bright side is they still can get serviceable point guards and be an awesome team in the future. Please just don't overpay for Sap and this scenario has long-term credit.

aliveandkickin wrote:

Word (I like hip-hop at times so I'm allowed to say that). Favors can be an Ibaka or one with a go-to jumper that opens up his drive. That'll be the difference between being an 8 mill player or 15 mill one that the Jazz can rely upon every yr to make a run in the playoffs. His footwork will come, I hope, or he's a Duncan without the scoring. I think he needs patience and we'll see him bustoutwith maximizing his touches and passing skills as well.
Thing is, without paying luxury tax, the Jazz need multifaceted players on both ends. Just having Kanter (the lantern) being the threat on offense makes the Jazz too limited ...the old five player theory of five guys that make around 10 mill a yr is how the Jazz's future looks brightest.
If Favors does turn into a 15 mill a yr guy, my guess it'll be when he's 28 or 29 and he may want to bolt for endorsements then....which gives plenty of time for him, Lantern, and Hayward to go off here.
Surround those three with a few pg's like Jarrett Jack, Mo Williams, and Burks and a tweener like Millsap and they can be great, but Favors has to develop as well as the other youth.
It's a shame we didn't get value for Jefferson in picks and possibly expiring contracts where our youth could still be retained and developed but the bright side is they still can get serviceable point guards and be an awesome team in the future. Please just don't overpay for Sap and this scenario has long-term credit.

Ibaka is a nice comparison for Favors. He's not quite the shot blocker that Ibaka is and he doesn't have Ibaka's jumper, but as an all around basketball player I think he projects to be even better than Ibaka. He's a better rebounder, a more willing passer, he draws more fouls, and he gets steals at a much higher rate than Ibaka.

I think Favors is over-used offensively given where his game is at. He would be a much more efficient player if he was allowed to focus more on defense and playing off the ball offensively, but the Jazz insist on making him fill Jeffersons role in the offense when he's out there and it just doesn't work, he's not ready for that, and Kanter is better at it anyways.

Here's a comparison of the two this season, and don't forget that Favors is two years younger than Ibaka...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=favorde01&y1=2013&p2=ibakase01&y2=2013

TheMagnus wrote:

I think Favors is over-used offensively given where his game is at. He would be a much more efficient player if he was allowed to focus more on defense and playing off the ball offensively, but the Jazz insist on making him fill Jeffersons role in the offense when he's out there and it just doesn't work, he's not ready for that, and Kanter is better at it anyways.

Here's a comparison of the two this season, and don't forget that Favors is two years younger than Ibaka...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=favorde01&y1=2013&p2=ibakase01&y2=2013

Totally. I get so irritated every.....single.....time.......Favors is out there and there goes our guard, turning and setting that pick underneath the basket so that Derrick can come across the baseline and post up on the low block. Just like Al does, who does it just like Karl did. So freaking irritating!!! Favors is NOT Al Jefferson, yet Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) forces this issue and puts Favors in an uncomfortable position where it has helped his turnovers soar.
Shows such a complete lack of basketball sense. Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) is such a terrible coach!

TheMagnus wrote:

...

I think if this Jazz team was to make Jefferson on the block the second option in the offense, the thing you go to when the play you have run for someone else doesn't produce an easy bucket, and focus on getting the ball in the hands of Hayward and Millsap earlier in the shot clock they would be better for it.

I feel like I had this great idea that I came up with all by myself and then right after I had it I found out that someone else had actually done what my great idea was.

And then I remember that myself and others have been saying that for over a year now and that the guys that are being paid to do this stuff just barely decided it was a good idea, after losing thier spot in the playoffs and suffering a meltdown. Bitter sweet moment really...

Quote :

Al Jefferson has been the focal point of the Jazz offense since his arrival in 2010. There is no surprise when the Jazz pound the ball to the center on the left block. That part of the court is his workshop, where he toils and tinkers, finding new ways to frustrate competent, professional big men into looking foolish.

Jefferson took 23 shots on Wednesday. His role in the Jazz offense is not diminished. But is it changing?

That was the sense given by both Mo Williams and Paul Millsap following the Jazz's 103-88 win over the Phoenix Suns. Jefferson finished with 25 points on 12-of-23 shooting, and he scored six of the team's first 10 points to start the game. However, both Williams and Millsap said the Jazz have changed the offensive philosophy at beginnings of games, which could explain the fast starts in Monday's win over Philadelphia and Wednesday.

Both nights, the Jazz made their first six shots.

"I think we got a little carried away with just coming down, starting the game, just throwing it down to Al, letting him work." Millsap said. "It made it too tough on him, made it too tough on everybody else. It's basically just getting everybody moving, moving the basketball around."

Every Jazz starter had scored by the 5:57 mark of the first quarter when Mo Williams made an 18-foot jumper. At the end of the first, the Jazz led 34-23 and had shot 69.6 percent from the floor.

Here's Mo Williams' explanation of what the Jazz are doing:

"I think we're coming out and we're running different stuff than we usually run. More and more pick and roll situations. We're going to eventually go to Al — a lot. I think it's better when we come out and we get some pick and rolls, which we have, and kind of getting Gordon going early, getting him in motion, getting some ball movement. Getting bodies moving, instead of just coming in and going to Al. The perimeter first shots or the jump shots, those are tough."

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/56071887-62/jazz-game-games-getting.html.csp

I hear and respect the frustration Mags and can confirm that you have been the loudest anti-support voice for the pound it in to Al offense. And yes, it is hugely galling it took the Jazz coaching staff 71 games to figure out the Jazz needed alternative options. I'm hanging that on the coaching staff - lame - and worse that fanboards called it out long before the staff did anything. (Makes you wonder what the private conversations have been like between the players, eh?) Like when the rest of the league caught on to Jerry's standard sets and could easily neutralize them with D adjustments, teams have been taking Al out of his comfort zones during the first quarter for over half the season.

Returning back to the original topic of Millsap v. Dirk, or more generally Millsap v. some other player.

Those familiar with my rantings have often heard me say that size is overrated, and that the "undersized" label is effectively meaningless for players like Paul Millsap.

Here's some fairly technical analysis that supports that point, and makes the assertion that vertical leap is actually the thing we should be talking about most, not height...

Quote :

Using Offensive WS and Defensive RAPM as the measuring-sticks, the only position where height warrants special attention is that tall wings appear more prone to thrive. In guards and big men, height receives too much popular credit; i.e. as long as a player is within a reasonable range for their position (no 6′ – 3″ power forwards), this trait can be lightly regarded.

Focusing solely on power forwards again, all non-leaping correlations rarely produced strong values. Aside from vertical jump, no measurement provided a correlation above 0.30 in season three, four, or peak; including rookie and second years, nothing cleared 0.40. The diversity of roles at this position, and the success of players like Young and Millsap, keep many traits from resembling importance for either offensive or defensive success.

To summarize:

◦Underclassmen power forwards that jump high were most likely to excel at defense. With 90% of this project published, No-Step and Max-Vert appear to be the “winning” measurements; not that any of this is fool-proof.

◦Height proves overvalued by media, fans, and NBA front offices. This becomes apparent through both the offensive and defensive data.

http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/03/28/kevins-summer-project-part-11-power-forward-defense/

TheMagnus wrote:

Returning back to the original topic of Millsap v. Dirk, or more generally Millsap v. some other player.

Those familiar with my rantings have often heard me say that size is overrated, and that the "undersized" label is effectively meaningless for players like Paul Millsap.

Here's some fairly technical analysis that supports that point, and makes the assertion that vertical leap is actually the thing we should be talking about most, not height...

Quote :

Using Offensive WS and Defensive RAPM as the measuring-sticks, the only position where height warrants special attention is that tall wings appear more prone to thrive. In guards and big men, height receives too much popular credit; i.e. as long as a player is within a reasonable range for their position (no 6′ – 3″ power forwards), this trait can be lightly regarded.

Focusing solely on power forwards again, all non-leaping correlations rarely produced strong values. Aside from vertical jump, no measurement provided a correlation above 0.30 in season three, four, or peak; including rookie and second years, nothing cleared 0.40. The diversity of roles at this position, and the success of players like Young and Millsap, keep many traits from resembling importance for either offensive or defensive success.

To summarize:

◦Underclassmen power forwards that jump high were most likely to excel at defense. With 90% of this project published, No-Step and Max-Vert appear to be the “winning” measurements; not that any of this is fool-proof.

◦Height proves overvalued by media, fans, and NBA front offices. This becomes apparent through both the offensive and defensive data.

http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/03/28/kevins-summer-project-part-11-power-forward-defense/

So, you telling me Jeremy Evans isn't undersized in the post!?

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Returning back to the original topic of Millsap v. Dirk, or more generally Millsap v. some other player.

Those familiar with my rantings have often heard me say that size is overrated, and that the "undersized" label is effectively meaningless for players like Paul Millsap.

Here's some fairly technical analysis that supports that point, and makes the assertion that vertical leap is actually the thing we should be talking about most, not height...

Quote :

Using Offensive WS and Defensive RAPM as the measuring-sticks, the only position where height warrants special attention is that tall wings appear more prone to thrive. In guards and big men, height receives too much popular credit; i.e. as long as a player is within a reasonable range for their position (no 6′ – 3″ power forwards), this trait can be lightly regarded.

Focusing solely on power forwards again, all non-leaping correlations rarely produced strong values. Aside from vertical jump, no measurement provided a correlation above 0.30 in season three, four, or peak; including rookie and second years, nothing cleared 0.40. The diversity of roles at this position, and the success of players like Young and Millsap, keep many traits from resembling importance for either offensive or defensive success.

To summarize:

◦Underclassmen power forwards that jump high were most likely to excel at defense. With 90% of this project published, No-Step and Max-Vert appear to be the “winning” measurements; not that any of this is fool-proof.

◦Height proves overvalued by media, fans, and NBA front offices. This becomes apparent through both the offensive and defensive data.

http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/03/28/kevins-summer-project-part-11-power-forward-defense/

So, you telling me Jeremy Evans isn't undersized in the post!?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Evans needs some time on the court to prove that out, but he's already shown repeatedly that his athleticism and hustle compensates for his lack of size.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Returning back to the original topic of Millsap v. Dirk, or more generally Millsap v. some other player.

Those familiar with my rantings have often heard me say that size is overrated, and that the "undersized" label is effectively meaningless for players like Paul Millsap.

Here's some fairly technical analysis that supports that point, and makes the assertion that vertical leap is actually the thing we should be talking about most, not height...

Quote :

Using Offensive WS and Defensive RAPM as the measuring-sticks, the only position where height warrants special attention is that tall wings appear more prone to thrive. In guards and big men, height receives too much popular credit; i.e. as long as a player is within a reasonable range for their position (no 6′ – 3″ power forwards), this trait can be lightly regarded.

Focusing solely on power forwards again, all non-leaping correlations rarely produced strong values. Aside from vertical jump, no measurement provided a correlation above 0.30 in season three, four, or peak; including rookie and second years, nothing cleared 0.40. The diversity of roles at this position, and the success of players like Young and Millsap, keep many traits from resembling importance for either offensive or defensive success.

To summarize:

◦Underclassmen power forwards that jump high were most likely to excel at defense. With 90% of this project published, No-Step and Max-Vert appear to be the “winning” measurements; not that any of this is fool-proof.

◦Height proves overvalued by media, fans, and NBA front offices. This becomes apparent through both the offensive and defensive data.

http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/03/28/kevins-summer-project-part-11-power-forward-defense/

So, you telling me Jeremy Evans isn't undersized in the post!?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Evans needs some time on the court to prove that out, but he's already shown repeatedly that his athleticism and hustle compensates for his lack of size.

So here we are again. Fire Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013). And have the Jazz brass explain why they extended him to wave towels on the bench. I said once before and will say again, "Exactly what is the plan with JE?" The guy can't buy floor time but when he gets it he goes vertical.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Returning back to the original topic of Millsap v. Dirk, or more generally Millsap v. some other player.

Those familiar with my rantings have often heard me say that size is overrated, and that the "undersized" label is effectively meaningless for players like Paul Millsap.

Here's some fairly technical analysis that supports that point, and makes the assertion that vertical leap is actually the thing we should be talking about most, not height...

Quote :

Using Offensive WS and Defensive RAPM as the measuring-sticks, the only position where height warrants special attention is that tall wings appear more prone to thrive. In guards and big men, height receives too much popular credit; i.e. as long as a player is within a reasonable range for their position (no 6′ – 3″ power forwards), this trait can be lightly regarded.

Focusing solely on power forwards again, all non-leaping correlations rarely produced strong values. Aside from vertical jump, no measurement provided a correlation above 0.30 in season three, four, or peak; including rookie and second years, nothing cleared 0.40. The diversity of roles at this position, and the success of players like Young and Millsap, keep many traits from resembling importance for either offensive or defensive success.

To summarize:

◦Underclassmen power forwards that jump high were most likely to excel at defense. With 90% of this project published, No-Step and Max-Vert appear to be the “winning” measurements; not that any of this is fool-proof.

◦Height proves overvalued by media, fans, and NBA front offices. This becomes apparent through both the offensive and defensive data.

http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013/03/28/kevins-summer-project-part-11-power-forward-defense/

So, you telling me Jeremy Evans isn't undersized in the post!?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Evans needs some time on the court to prove that out, but he's already shown repeatedly that his athleticism and hustle compensates for his lack of size.

So here we are again. Fire Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013). And have the Jazz brass explain why they extended him to wave towels on the bench. I said once before and will say again, "Exactly what is the plan with JE?" The guy can't buy floor time but when he gets it he goes vertical.

I mentioned it on another post, but I'm hoping that it was more than just a business move, I'm hoping it was because they anticipate losing one or both of Millsap and Jefferson and they think he can fill a rotation position.

TheMagnus wrote:

I mentioned it on another post, but I'm hoping that it was more than just a business move, I'm hoping it was because they anticipate losing one or both of Millsap and Jefferson and they think he can fill a rotation position.

Well, that would be interesting. A secret plan for DNP guys. "You gonna see serious minutes next year cause we stashed you on the bench to fake everyone out but we're gonna bust you out soon. Trust us. We have the same plan for DMC."

Meh.

I'll take size along with jumping ability!!... but Millsap will be fine untill, and if, we ever get Saps skills in a Favors body.

So yea, went to the Suns game and Favors had his moments on defense, then on offense he just tries too hard. Without a good jumper he's just trying to get to the rim... It may take 3-4 yrs before he can be relied upon on offense. Saw them try to run the pick-and-roll on offense with him and he's not ready, turns the ball over if his path to the rim gets cut off. I just think he needs to shoot 500 jumpers a day and play alot of pick-and-roll stuff - then he'll come along..........and who knows, he may already shoot 1000 jumpers a day.



Poor Evans can jump, but his 194 LB body can't keep guys off the glass. Like him a lot but he needs some booty- which will probably affect his jumping a little.... Can anyone ever see Evans gaining 50 pounds? I can't. Can anyone ever see him starting except at sf- which he'll need to improve his jumper and moves to the basket? I sorta can, but I've never seen him take a guy off the dribble, so, maybe he needs to work on his handles as well... sigh.

aliveandkickin wrote:

I'll take size along with jumping ability!!... but Millsap will be fine untill, and if, we ever get Saps skills in a Favors body.

So yea, went to the Suns game and Favors had his moments on defense, then on offense he just tries too hard. Without a good jumper he's just trying to get to the rim... It may take 3-4 yrs before he can be relied upon on offense. Saw them try to run the pick-and-roll on offense with him and he's not ready, turns the ball over if his path to the rim gets cut off. I just think he needs to shoot 500 jumpers a day and play alot of pick-and-roll stuff - then he'll come along..........and who knows, he may already shoot 1000 jumpers a day.



Poor Evans can jump, but his 194 LB body can't keep guys off the glass. Like him a lot but he needs some booty- which will probably affect his jumping a little.... Can anyone ever see Evans gaining 50 pounds? I can't. Can anyone ever see him starting except at sf- which he'll need to improve his jumper and moves to the basket? I sorta can, but I've never seen him take a guy off the dribble, so, maybe he needs to work on his handles as well... sigh.

That's like best case scenario for me, favors turns into upgraded millsap and kanter turns into upgraded jefferson. Makes me drool a little...

You need to watch the games where evans got run this season, he's done most of his scoring on jumpers and drives and has actually looked like a skilled basketball player, it's pretty remarkable.