UnderKanter

Mutang, why did I post link if you have not even tried to open it and read it?
If you relax and look at it you would have noted that national team prep games and qualifying games started in August, way after Summer league was over. Kanter played in summer league in July and could have played for Turkey in August and September - not sure why you think that would be like a slap to Jazz face... you completely misunderstood my point here.

Kanter working on his body is more important than the experience from playing with turkey. His conditioning was horrible last year, he was big and strong but not ripped and toned, which he looks to be now. I hope he worked his legs some so he will be able to jump. But if he can just work on his body hard every year and become one of the most physically dominating players in the league then that will be more valuable than him playing a few games with a different coach and different system than he is still trying to get down here in Utah. Plus the fact that there was a much greater chance of him getting injured playing for turkey, and him working on his body this offseason means there is much less of a chance he will get injured during the games that actually count. IMO he would have been an idiot to play for turkey in the olympics. I think he will play in the olympics 4 years from now, and he should. But it would have been dumb this year

Calgary Jazz wrote:

Mutang, why did I post link if you have not even tried to open it and read it?
If you relax and look at it you would have noted that national team prep games and qualifying games started in August, way after Summer league was over. Kanter played in summer league in July and could have played for Turkey in August and September - not sure why you think that would be like a slap to Jazz face... you completely misunderstood my point here.

Sorry Calg, but I don't have your back on this one. MuTang (and others) already hit on the heart of why Enes shouldn't have spent time in Turkey this summer. Last year, there was a lockout, so Enes really had no choice but to go to Turkey. This year, he has the entire Jazz orginization working to make him a better NBA player-- which is much better than anything he could have gained by playing for Turkey (new coach or not).

Again, thanks for giving all the links to last year's games in Turkey, and around Europe. But, one of the main things I saw was that these leagues and teams don't have talent or coaching that comes close to the NBA, or the NBA D-League, or even the NCAA. Sorry. Enis is much better off staying here, working on his game, than he would have been playing for Turkey. BTW, you may notice nobody is asking for links to Turkey's games this year-- we saw enough bad basketball last year.

Saint Louis wrote:

But, one of the main things I saw was that these leagues and teams don't have talent or coaching that comes close to the NBA, or the NBA D-League, or even the NCAA. Sorry. Enis is much better off staying here, working on his game, than he would have been playing for Turkey. BTW, you may notice nobody is asking for links to Turkey's games this year-- we saw enough bad basketball last year.

Obviously if Kanter would be playing you guys would be asking for links, I doubt you want to see Erden.
And sorry SL, but it is just ignorant and insulting to say that European national teams don't have talent or coaching which would be close to d-league or NCAA. That is simple pathetic. Ask BYU how they did in Europe last year... if you missed it I will tell you they lost to Greece by 30+pts and it was not even close. Euroleague teams regularly beat NBA teams in preseason, CSKA smoked Clippers by 20+pts one year... tell me if any of d-league or NCAA teams would be able to even stay close with any NBA team at any point? Obviously not a chance.
And coaching? Best coaches in world work in Europe as they rely on team work and complicated and difficult plays and execution. NBA coaching is simple, 99% of the time they let your star players do the job, isolation and occasional pick and roll and 3 set. Most of teams don't even run any plays - ask Miami for example. Thats why former NBA coaches never win anything when they try FIBA career ( Musselman, Del Harris for example ), thats why USA needed Krzyzewsky to save USA basketball from another pathetic show on FIBA tourneys and even he managed to lose in 2006 with having superior talent vs good but not spectacular Greece team.That's why L.Brown just fresh after winning NBA championship was beaten 3 times in Athens ( by Puerto Rico, Lithuania and Argentina )!!! Don't even start about coaching.... seriously, NBA coaching is a joke compared to Europe.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

Saint Louis wrote:

But, one of the main things I saw was that these leagues and teams don't have talent or coaching that comes close to the NBA, or the NBA D-League, or even the NCAA. Sorry. Enis is much better off staying here, working on his game, than he would have been playing for Turkey. BTW, you may notice nobody is asking for links to Turkey's games this year-- we saw enough bad basketball last year.

Obviously if Kanter would be playing you guys would be asking for links, I doubt you want to see Erden.
And sorry SL, but it is just ignorant and insulting to say that European national teams don't have talent or coaching which would be close to d-league or NCAA. That is simple pathetic. Ask BYU how they did in Europe last year... if you missed it I will tell you they lost to Greece by 30+pts and it was not even close. Euroleague teams regularly beat NBA teams in preseason, CSKA smoked Clippers by 20+pts one year... tell me if any of d-league or NCAA teams would be able to even stay close with any NBA team at any point? Obviously not a chance.
And coaching? Best coaches in world work in Europe as they rely on team work and complicated and difficult plays and execution. NBA coaching is simple, 99% of the time they let your star players do the job, isolation and occasional pick and roll and 3 set. Most of teams don't even run any plays - ask Miami for example. Thats why former NBA coaches never win anything when they try FIBA career ( Musselman, Del Harris for example ), thats why USA needed Krzyzewsky to save USA basketball from another pathetic show on FIBA tourneys and even he managed to lose in 2006 with having superior talent vs good but not spectacular Greece team.That's why L.Brown just fresh after winning NBA championship was beaten 3 times in Athens ( by Puerto Rico, Lithuania and Argentina )!!! Don't even start about coaching.... seriously, NBA coaching is a joke compared to Europe.

And why FIBA coaches never win anything in the NBA. How many FIBA coaches have won anything in the NBA?

We had a little discussion about this in another thread, different doesn't necessarily = better. The NBA game is very very different from the international game, saying one is better than the other is all about preference. Don't get me wrong, I'm partial to the team oriented Euro-style too, but that doesn't necessarily mean that coaching to that style is "better". In fact, I could prove to you pretty easily that on most NBA teams (and probably a few Euro teams) that the NBA style of leaning on your best players and letting them create in the offense is a much better stragedy if you are interested in winning.

Besides, the NBA is a players league, and it is without question the best league in the world. You bring up the 2006 worlds as if that means anything, and a suposed loss by the Clippers sometime in the past (really, the Clippers are your example??) to CSKA, but just conveniently ignore the fact that an NCAA coach has been utterly dominating international competion ever since.

So shall we just agree that the NCAA has the best coaching in the world?

Great, argument solved.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

Mutang, why did I post link if you have not even tried to open it and read it?
If you relax and look at it you would have noted that national team prep games and qualifying games started in August, way after Summer league was over. Kanter played in summer league in July and could have played for Turkey in August and September - not sure why you think that would be like a slap to Jazz face... you completely misunderstood my point here.

The link about the tournament? Why do I need do I need to open that? I didn't ask about it, and it doesn't matter to our convo.
If that was your entire point this whole time, then you're correct I missed that. With that said, with how the Turks ran their team, I think it is COMPLETELY a valid argument to say that playing on that disorganized clown squad would not be as beneficial as it would for Kanter to take advantage of all the camps, training facilities and programs that the NBA and Jazz have to offer, and that he completely missed out on last year.

TheMagnus wrote:

Besides, the NBA is a players league, and it is without question the best league in the world. You bring up the 2006 worlds as if that means anything, and a suposed loss by the Clippers sometime in the past (really, the Clippers are your example??) to CSKA, but just conveniently ignore the fact that an NCAA coach has been utterly dominating international competion ever since. So shall we just agree that the NCAA has the best coaching in the world?

Great, argument solved.

LOL,who is utterly dominating? With amount of talent Krzyzewski had in these Olympics he was far from dominating. Last minute 5 pt win vs Lithuania who had Kleiza as single NBA player and Valanciunas who is high draft pick but not played in NBA a single minute is a failure , not domination. He was totally outcoached by LT coach who is not even that good. Barely winning gold match vs Spain who have NBA level starting five but nothing else on the bench is far from domination as well. They dominated Tunisia and Nigeria, I can give them that.
Simple thing here: You have best players in the world , you suppose to win by 30-50pts vs these teams, if some no names like Greece in 2006 or LT in 2012 can give you a close game - what that tells about USA coaching, game plan and preparation for those games?
Clippers is NBA team coached by NBA coach - not sure why that would be not indicative of coaching level difference... but I can remind you other teams who lost to European teams as well - Raptors to Macabi in 2005, 76'ers lost to Barcelona in 2006, Grizzlies lost to Malaga in 2007, Toronto lost to Real Madrid in 2007, Cavs lost to CSKA in 2010, Lakers ( with Phil Jackson! ) lost to Barcelona in 2010. You can bet this year there will be more loses coming.

Zoonie wrote:

IMO he would have been an idiot to play for turkey in the olympics. I think he will play in the olympics 4 years from now, and he should. But it would have been dumb this year

Seriously? Why you even bother posting this nonsense if you obviously did not even watch Olympics. Otherwise you would know that Turkey was not playing in Olympics at all.
Kanter declined to play for his National team in Eurobasket 2013 qualifying games. I provided link in previous post... but why bother reading it, right?

TheMagnus wrote:

And why FIBA coaches never win anything in the NBA. How many FIBA coaches have won anything in the NBA?

wow, great question... huh.. how many of great European coaches had a chance or offer to coach in NBA?
To answer your question... M.D'Antoni won coach of the year I believe... so from single coach who was given a chance it is not bad...certainly better then any former NBA coach who tried to win anything in FIBA.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Besides, the NBA is a players league, and it is without question the best league in the world. You bring up the 2006 worlds as if that means anything, and a suposed loss by the Clippers sometime in the past (really, the Clippers are your example??) to CSKA, but just conveniently ignore the fact that an NCAA coach has been utterly dominating international competion ever since. So shall we just agree that the NCAA has the best coaching in the world?

Great, argument solved.

LOL,who is utterly dominating? With amount of talent Krzyzewski had in these Olympics he was far from dominating. Last minute 5 pt win vs Lithuania who had Kleiza as single NBA player and Valanciunas who is high draft pick but not played in NBA a single minute is a failure , not domination. He was totally outcoached by LT coach who is not even that good. Barely winning gold match vs Spain who have NBA level starting five but nothing else on the bench is far from domination as well. They dominated Tunisia and Nigeria, I can give them that.
Simple thing here: You have best players in the world , you suppose to win by 30-50pts vs these teams, if some no names like Greece in 2006 or LT in 2012 can give you a close game - what that tells about USA coaching, game plan and preparation for those games?
Clippers is NBA team coached by NBA coach - not sure why that would be not indicative of coaching level difference... but I can remind you other teams who lost to European teams as well - Raptors to Macabi in 2005, 76'ers lost to Barcelona in 2006, Grizzlies lost to Malaga in 2007, Toronto lost to Real Madrid in 2007, Cavs lost to CSKA in 2010, Lakers ( with Phil Jackson! ) lost to Barcelona in 2010. You can bet this year there will be more loses coming.

Whatever Calg, you're the one talking up international coaches and players, now you are saying they just aren't that good and should be getting blown out by 50 by hte Americans? Make up your mind, or stop making stuff up, before you contradict yourself right out of credibility.

And you throw out individual games like they are the rule and not the exeptions, that's classic logical fallacy stuff there. NBA teams win 9 out of 10 games against euroleague teams, but that 1 loss out of 10 proves their coaching is better?

And then if Coach K posts an international record of 62 wins and 1 loss over 7 years as head coach of Team USA... that's not domination, that's just what he was supposed to do?

62 wins

1 loss

Including a World chamipionship with the "b" team at the 2010 world championships.

...against everything all of those great coaches you are talking about could throw at him.

Lets go over that again...

Since 2006, all of your great coaches, have exactly 1 victory, which came in 2006, against Coach K.

That's 1...out of 63 trys.

...you're right, those guys are ....freaking....awesome!!!

(insert dogs ass pun here)

[quote="TheMagnusThat's 1...out of 63 trys.

...you're right, those guys are ....freaking....awesome!!!

(insert dogs ass pun here)[/quote]

Wow, Magnus! You just proved, that Pil Jacson absolutely dominated Sloan as a coach after Melone and Stocton retirement! And definitely that Miamy coachng is by far superior to Jazz or even Celtic coaching.

Congratulations!

TheMagnus wrote:

Lets go over that again...

Since 2006, all of your great coaches, have exactly 1 victory, which came in 2006, against Coach K.

That's 1...out of 63 trys.

...you're right, those guys are ....freaking....awesome!!!

(insert dogs ass pun here)

How about you compare what players other coaches had in their disposition vs USA talent pool. For Lithuania to be tied vs USA with 1 min left and lose only by 5 is perfect display how little coaching coach K actually does... To have Lebron, Bryant, Durant, Paul, D.Williams, Carmelo on your team and almost lose to Kleiza and bunch of no names? And you say it is good coaching? In most of their wins USA just overhelms their opponents with their athletism and physical superiority... certainly not in execution, game plan or set plays. Switch teams, give LT coach or any great European coach USA players and give coach K to coach LT team... I would laugh at the results...

Maybe one reason why Kanter declined to play for his National team in Euro basketball 2013 qualifying games was because their best players also declined to play for them, if I remember right only 1 player with NBA experience accepted all of the rest of them Turkoglu, Ilyasova, Asik and Kanter all chose not to play this season.

The thing is there was a whole group of them that did not want to do play this season so there has to be more to the story than what any of us know as to why all of them would not want to play on this team and without knowing the real reason's as to why they all chose not to play saying anything about it would be a guess. Calling Kanter out for it is just a shot in the dark on Cal's part and nothing else.

Maybe Kanter felt like it would be a waist of time to go play for a team that did not have a chance in HELL to win any games and thought that it would better suit him to stay in Utah and work on the things that are going to make him a better NBA player. If I had to guess (and that is all CAL is doing is guessing) I would think that is more of the reason he chose to go the way that he did.

dongibby wrote:

Maybe one reason why Kanter declined to play for his National team in Euro basketball 2013 qualifying games was because their best players also declined to play for them, if I remember right only 1 player with NBA experience accepted all of the rest of them Turkoglu, Ilyasova, Asik and Kanter all chose not to play this season.

The thing is there was a whole group of them that did not want to do play this season so there has to be more to the story than what any of us know as to why all of them would not want to play on this team and without knowing the real reason's as to why they all chose not to play saying anything about it would be a guess. Calling Kanter out for it is just a shot in the dark on Cal's part and nothing else.

Maybe Kanter felt like it would be a waist of time to go play for a team that did not have a chance in HELL to win any games and thought that it would better suit him to stay in Utah and work on the things that are going to make him a better NBA player. If I had to guess (and that is all CAL is doing is guessing) I would think that is more of the reason he chose to go the way that he did.

Excellent point Don, and something I didn't even think about. Good post.

dongibby wrote:

Maybe one reason why Kanter declined to play for his National team in Euro basketball 2013 qualifying games was because their best players also declined to play for them, if I remember right only 1 player with NBA experience accepted all of the rest of them Turkoglu, Ilyasova, Asik and Kanter all chose not to play this season.

The thing is there was a whole group of them that did not want to do play this season so there has to be more to the story than what any of us know as to why all of them would not want to play on this team and without knowing the real reason's as to why they all chose not to play saying anything about it would be a guess. Calling Kanter out for it is just a shot in the dark on Cal's part and nothing else.

Maybe Kanter felt like it would be a waist of time to go play for a team that did not have a chance in HELL to win any games and thought that it would better suit him to stay in Utah and work on the things that are going to make him a better NBA player. If I had to guess (and that is all CAL is doing is guessing) I would think that is more of the reason he chose to go the way that he did.

Thats good point Don, but look at it from other perspective. Kanter knew there won't be Asik, Turkoglu ( who was biggest ballhog on that team ) and Ilyasova. Those 3 accounted on probably more then 90% of touches and offense. As I said it was golden opportunity for Kanter to establish himself as focal point on Turkey team's offense and get lots of minutes and experience but he decided not to go. Not sure if he has a beef with his old coach - I think he was the one who was very opposed about him going to USA instead of playing pro ball in Europe.
There is certainly another possibility that Turks thought about themselves better then they really are and hoped for easy qualifying campaign without their top players. Problem is - if they lose couple more games ( very possible ) they won't qualify for Eurobasket 2013 final tourney and won't play in World championship in 2014 either.

vryadli wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

That's 1...out of 63 trys.

...you're right, those guys are ....freaking....awesome!!!

(insert dogs ass pun here)

Wow, Magnus! You just proved, that Pil Jacson absolutely dominated Sloan as a coach after Melone and Stocton retirement! And definitely that Miamy coachng is by far superior to Jazz or even Celtic coaching.

Congratulations!

I think you are confusing the argument here vyradli, Calg was the one that insists that Euro coaches are better than NBA and NCAA coaches. I'm just making the simple point that whatever measure he is using to claim that is purely subjective, and has no basis in the facts, because the facts are that regardless of talent, NBA coaches, and NCAA coaches for that matter, have been kicking international coaches asses consistently for pretty much ever. Like I said before, I don't think that means that one group of coaches is better than the other, just that they are coaching different teams in different leagues.

Calg on the other hand seems intent on trying to prove his point with out of context and carefully selected "facts" that are often contradictory.

Besides, Phil Jackson did absolutely dominate Sloan, who could argue that he didn't?

And the Jazz record against Miami is ALOT better than 1-63.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Lets go over that again...

Since 2006, all of your great coaches, have exactly 1 victory, which came in 2006, against Coach K.

That's 1...out of 63 trys.

...you're right, those guys are ....freaking....awesome!!!

(insert dogs ass pun here)

How about you compare what players other coaches had in their disposition vs USA talent pool. For Lithuania to be tied vs USA with 1 min left and lose only by 5 is perfect display how little coaching coach K actually does... To have Lebron, Bryant, Durant, Paul, D.Williams, Carmelo on your team and almost lose to Kleiza and bunch of no names? And you say it is good coaching? In most of their wins USA just overhelms their opponents with their athletism and physical superiority... certainly not in execution, game plan or set plays. Switch teams, give LT coach or any great European coach USA players and give coach K to coach LT team... I would laugh at the results...

Same thing happens in the NCAA tournament, and the Euroleague, and Eurobasket, and pretty much every league at every level, every year. Crappy teams beat good ones, unknown or lesser esteemed coaches beat better ones (or in this case ALMOST beat them), and still the facts remain...

1 and 62


So go ahead, keep arguing, I don't have to wait for an impossible hypothetical to find a reason to laugh at the results.

TheMagnus wrote:

Same thing happens in the NCAA tournament, and the Euroleague, and Eurobasket, and pretty much every league at every level, every year. Crappy teams beat good ones, unknown or lesser esteemed coaches beat better ones (or in this case ALMOST beat them), and still the facts remain...

1 and 62


So go ahead, keep arguing, I don't have to wait for an impossible hypothetical to find a reason to laugh at the results.

There is no point in arguing if you do not see obvious. All 62-1 result is showing is superior talent of USA players, not their coach's ability to win.
Give me Ferarri and I will outrace Michael Schumacher driving Dodge Caravan 62 out of 63 times Does it mean I am better race car driver?

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Same thing happens in the NCAA tournament, and the Euroleague, and Eurobasket, and pretty much every league at every level, every year. Crappy teams beat good ones, unknown or lesser esteemed coaches beat better ones (or in this case ALMOST beat them), and still the facts remain...

1 and 62


So go ahead, keep arguing, I don't have to wait for an impossible hypothetical to find a reason to laugh at the results.

There is no point in arguing if you do not see obvious. All 62-1 result is showing is superior talent of USA players, not their coach's ability to win.
Give me Ferarri and I will outrace Michael Schumacher driving Dodge Caravan 62 out of 63 times Does it mean I am better race car driver?

Um, ya, duh. You just beat him 62 out of 63 times in races where he put his best effort against yours, so... ya, only a dumbass is going to argue that he's a better driver than you. Driving, like coaching, involves more than just getting behind the wheel, if he brought a dodge caravan to F1 race then he's definitely that dumbass.

He can make all the excuses he wants, but at the end of the day 62 times out of 63 he didn't win, so he isn't better.

Nice, the pissing matches are back in town! CJ, you are officially this board's troll and it's working. I say piss on.

PS. What was JV's NBA stat's last year? Oh yeah, he didn't play. How 'bout that AK? Hasn't played a lick of NBA ball for a year, so who knows? Oh, and Sloan sucks, but he is retired. Smart guy would chill just a bit, see how things work out this coming season. You don't have to be a fan of the Jazz, though you consistently are Mr. Negative so we all assume you are not a "fan", but dude, you are going to eat so much crow and not even notice it is going down your gullet. After you are full you will either troll on or find easier meat.

The way I see the coaching debate isn't wins and loses since the USA has better talent. Obviously this is subjective but a coach at this level (NBA, NCAA, Euro league, Olympics) knows his x's and o's. A great coach , imo, motivates his team to play the style of ball he (the coach) thinks will win them the most games. He also doesn't take any half-steppin from his players or they'll be benched.... same goes with ball-hogs- they'll be benched by a good coach when a player fails to consistently recognize he's taking bad shots.

Look at Sloan: His team played his style of ball and they consistently won. He also didn't take any crap from players that didn't give 100%..... Sloan would have won a championship with the Lakers if he would have had MJ wannabe and Shaq...... or with the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen and their supporting players.

My point: Players don't make a coach. The coaches backbone and maximizing his personel makes him a great coach.

I can see Calgs point though. Look at the Heat- their coach really doesn't need to do much but go over game film with the players and see where they need improvement. The Heat don't need a dictator like Sloan was at times. They just need a little direction and small game changes since they already have superior talent and motivated players.

I feel pretty confident any high school coach could have won a championship with the Heat..... Posting Labron more often and seeing mismatches isn't too difficult to recognize..... I know there's more to it with defense and rotations, but still......

MTJazz wrote:

Nice, the pissing matches are back in town! CJ, you are officially this board's troll and it's working. I say piss on.

PS. What was JV's NBA stat's last year? Oh yeah, he didn't play. How 'bout that AK? Hasn't played a lick of NBA ball for a year, so who knows? Oh, and Sloan sucks, but he is retired. Smart guy would chill just a bit, see how things work out this coming season. You don't have to be a fan of the Jazz, though you consistently are Mr. Negative so we all assume you are not a "fan", but dude, you are going to eat so much crow and not even notice it is going down your gullet. After you are full you will either troll on or find easier meat.

I think there is enough room in this forum for everyone's opinion even Cal's no matter if it is on the negative side that's what these forum's are here for but it's too bad that it comes from hard feeling's over a draft pick, I think if you follow a team that even if they do something you don't like you will still get behind their players and root for them to succeed in the end. You don't have to like everything they do by no means Hell the Jazz has made a lot of mistake's over the years along with every other team in the NBA and it is not going to stop anytime soon. I think that Cal is untitled to what ever he thinks about the Jazz it is his opinion and we all got one good, bad or indifferent. That's my feeling anyway I can't speak for everyone else in this forum.

dongibby wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Nice, the pissing matches are back in town! CJ, you are officially this board's troll and it's working. I say piss on.

PS. What was JV's NBA stat's last year? Oh yeah, he didn't play. How 'bout that AK? Hasn't played a lick of NBA ball for a year, so who knows? Oh, and Sloan sucks, but he is retired. Smart guy would chill just a bit, see how things work out this coming season. You don't have to be a fan of the Jazz, though you consistently are Mr. Negative so we all assume you are not a "fan", but dude, you are going to eat so much crow and not even notice it is going down your gullet. After you are full you will either troll on or find easier meat.

I think there is enough room in this forum for everyone's opinion even Cal's no matter if it is on the negative side that's what these forum's are here for but it's too bad that it comes from hard feeling's over a draft pick, I think if you follow a team that even if they do something you don't like you will still get behind their players and root for them to succeed in the end. You don't have to like everything they do by no means Hell the Jazz has made a lot of mistake's over the years along with every other team in the NBA and it is not going to stop anytime soon. I think that Cal is untitled to what ever he thinks about the Jazz it is his opinion and we all got one good, bad or indifferent. That's my feeling anyway I can't speak for everyone else in this forum.

As long as it doesn't get out of hand like it tended to do over at trib talk, I have no problem with disagreements or even arguments.

The arguements here make it much more interesting. If in every thread everyone agreed- I don't see the point of the thread!