ESPN Player Rankings

Anybody else following the ESPN TOP 500 Player Rankings?

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank-uth-2012/2012-nba-player-rankings-utah-jazz

They asked 104 "experts" to rank every player form 1 to 10, the average of those rankings is the players score.

This is totally an exercise in "wisdom of the masses" theory, and if the theory is correct, then the sample size here is big enough that for the most part these rankings should be just about as close to reality as subjective rankings can be.

So here's a summary of our Jazz men bottom to top...

#483 Kevin Murphy, score 1.85

#380 DeMarre Carroll, score 2.72

#347 Jamaal Tinsley, score 2.91

#342 Jeremy Evans, score 2.93

#323 Earl Watson, score 3.12

#310 Raja Bell, score 3.25

#242 Alec Burks, score 3.88

#205 Enes Kanter, score 4.28

#201 Randy Foye, score 4.33

#163 Marvin Williams, score 4.69

#125 Mo Williams, score 5.06

#123 Gordon Hayward, score 5.09

Top 100 still to come, 3 Jazz players still unranked...

So far Kanters ranking surprised me the most, they had him ahead of Brendan Wright, Gustavo Ayon, Linas Klieza, and Timofey Mozgov. Hayward's ranking seems a little low, and Bell and Watson too high, but if you are ordering Jazz players from best to worst I'd say that isn't too far off.

I was also surprized to see Devin Harris 20 spots ahead of Mo Williams, I'm betting that changes this year.

TheMagnus wrote:

Anybody else following the ESPN TOP 500 Player Rankings?

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank-uth-2012/2012-nba-player-rankings-utah-jazz

They asked 104 "experts" to rank every player form 1 to 10, the average of those rankings is the players score.

This is totally an exercise in "wisdom of the masses" theory, and if the theory is correct, then the sample size here is big enough that for the most part these rankings should be just about as close to reality as subjective rankings can be.

So here's a summary of our Jazz men bottom to top...

#483 Kevin Murphy, score 1.85

#380 DeMarre Carroll, score 2.72

#347 Jamaal Tinsley, score 2.91

#342 Jeremy Evans, score 2.93

#323 Earl Watson, score 3.12

#310 Raja Bell, score 3.25

#242 Alec Burks, score 3.88

#205 Enes Kanter, score 4.28

#201 Randy Foye, score 4.33

#163 Marvin Williams, score 4.69

#125 Mo Williams, score 5.06

#123 Gordon Hayward, score 5.09

Top 100 still to come, 3 Jazz players still unranked...

So far Kanters ranking surprised me the most, they had him ahead of Brendan Wright, Gustavo Ayon, Linas Klieza, and Timofey Mozgov. Hayward's ranking seems a little low, and Bell and Watson too high, but if you are ordering Jazz players from best to worst I'd say that isn't too far off.

I was also surprized to see Devin Harris 20 spots ahead of Mo Williams, I'm betting that changes this year.

Man, that 205 number seems really familiar.....I posted this same thing in the Trib last year and I swear Kanter was 205 again (after they rated him too high.....mmm, could have been Gordo there) Speaking of 123, there are alot of good players and being close to top 100 in the entire league is pretty good. He's right around Billups, Battier, Wesley Matthews, Crawford, Kaman.......thats pretty good. I'll tell you one thing, I bet you right now Gordo passes up all those guys this year.
Totally agree with you on Mo flying past Devin. I think Mo has his best season yet.

Pretty sure there aren't 124 guys I would take ahead of GH.

#89 Derrick Favors, score 5.61


Probably about right for Favors at this juncture, but I know we all expect him to be much higher next year.

O.J. Mayo came in at #90 with a score of 5.60, I just don't understand how anybody could rank him ahead of Hayward, or either of the Williams for that matter, but there simply just isn't any justification for him being ahead of Hayward. I would probably switch the ranks of those two.

TheMagnus wrote:

#89 Derrick Favors, score 5.61


Probably about right for Favors at this juncture, but I know we all expect him to be much higher next year.

O.J. Mayo came in at #90 with a score of 5.60, I just don't understand how anybody could rank him ahead of Hayward, or either of the Williams for that matter, but there simply just isn't any justification for him being ahead of Hayward. I would probably switch the ranks of those two.

I think voters took notice on Haywards playoffs performace which hurt his ranking.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

#89 Derrick Favors, score 5.61


Probably about right for Favors at this juncture, but I know we all expect him to be much higher next year.

O.J. Mayo came in at #90 with a score of 5.60, I just don't understand how anybody could rank him ahead of Hayward, or either of the Williams for that matter, but there simply just isn't any justification for him being ahead of Hayward. I would probably switch the ranks of those two.

I think voters took notice on Haywards playoffs performace which hurt his stack.

Probably, but the Spurs made everyone on our team look like scrubs.

Romoholic wrote:

Probably, but the Spurs made everyone on our team look like scrubs.

Yeah, that team looked like well oiled machine, still can't believe they lost that 2-0 lead in WCF.

AK checking in at #79... seems about right.

#53 Paul Millsap, Score 6.55

I personally find it hard to believe that Millsap isn't a top 50 player, not sure what else he has to do, or how many times he has to do it, to prove to people that he is.

I guess the good thing for the Jazz is that there never seems to be a shortage of disrespect and doubt to motivate him, and he's never failed to use that to better himself.

I like Sap but not sure he'd crack the top 10 PF's. There's a lot of great players in the other positions that're better than him so 53 seems pretty good. Magnus how would you rank the top PF's?

TheMagnus wrote:

Anybody else following the ESPN TOP 500 Player Rankings?

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank-uth-2012/2012-nba-player-rankings-utah-jazz

They asked 104 "experts" to rank every player form 1 to 10, the average of those rankings is the players score.

This is totally an exercise in "wisdom of the masses" theory, and if the theory is correct, then the sample size here is big enough that for the most part these rankings should be just about as close to reality as subjective rankings can be.

So here's a summary of our Jazz men bottom to top...

#483 Kevin Murphy, score 1.85

#380 DeMarre Carroll, score 2.72

#347 Jamaal Tinsley, score 2.91

#342 Jeremy Evans, score 2.93

#323 Earl Watson, score 3.12

#310 Raja Bell, score 3.25

#242 Alec Burks, score 3.88

#205 Enes Kanter, score 4.28

#201 Randy Foye, score 4.33

#163 Marvin Williams, score 4.69

#125 Mo Williams, score 5.06

#123 Gordon Hayward, score 5.09

Top 100 still to come, 3 Jazz players still unranked...

So far Kanters ranking surprised me the most, they had him ahead of Brendan Wright, Gustavo Ayon, Linas Klieza, and Timofey Mozgov. Hayward's ranking seems a little low, and Bell and Watson too high, but if you are ordering Jazz players from best to worst I'd say that isn't too far off.

I was also surprized to see Devin Harris 20 spots ahead of Mo Williams, I'm betting that changes this year.

One thing you have to remember at looking at these rankings is that most of the people participating don't follow the Jazz as closely as most of us-- a lot of the time they rely on numbers rather than observation, so their responses are sometimes a bad collection of subjective and objective information.

Bell and Watson's high numbers seem to be based more on #s and history than on a good understanding of the Jazz. I don't think Kanter's ranking is far off. Heyhey's spot does seem a little low, but, the Jazz' lineup at the 2 and 3 make it really hard to say where he really fits in the rankings. As for Mo-Will and Devin Harris, I can understand why DH is ranked 20 higher: the "experts" aren't Jazz experts, so they went with #s and history rather than what happened with DH in Utah, and what will likely happen with Mo-Will back in Utah. I look for Mo-Will to shine.

aliveandkickin wrote:

I like Sap but not sure he'd crack the top 10 PF's. There's a lot of great players in the other positions that're better than him so 53 seems pretty good. Magnus how would you rank the top PF's?

Depends on who you call a "Power Forward"...

To answer your question I will limit it to guys that spend most of their floor time playing PF, and just like the ESPN rankings I will base it primarily on last years play...

1. Kevin Love
2. Blake Griffin
3. Lamarcus Aldridge

Those 3 were kind of in a class by themselves last year, and however you want to order them, there is little doubt that they are the top 3 Power Forwards in the NBA right now.

4. Pau Gasol
5. Josh Smith
6. Paul Millsap
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Ryan Anderson
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Chris Bosh

Zach Randolph probably would have made the list if he was healthy, but he barely played last year and wasn't that great when he did.

I'd honestly say Millsap was a borderline top 5 Power Forward last year, I had to fight the Homer in me to not put him at #4 because when I step back and look at all of the evidence of what they brought to the court last year there really isn't that much separating #4 from #9. When you look past the name recognition (Bosh) and the thinking they are still what they used to be (Garnett, Gasol, Nowizki), and get down to what these players actually did on the floor for their teams, Paul measures up very well in pretty much every way possible. He was the 1b best player (Jefferson 1a) on a Western Conference playoff team, his numbers compare favorably both offensively and defensively to other "top tier" Power Forwards, he doesn't take a lot of bad shots or hurt his team with his attitude, he's only 27 years old, he doesn't get hurt very often, and he has improved and expanded his game every season he's been in the NBA...

But hey, this is all subjective right? So watch the games, look at the numbers, see for yourself...

Here's a side by side comparison of last seasons production with Millsap and 5 other Power Forwards that are considered "elite" by most people...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2012&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2012&p3=anderry01&y3=2012&p4=smithjo03&y4=2012&p5=gasolpa01&y5=2012&p6=boshch01&y6=2012

And it's not like that is a fluke, he did the same thing last year...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2011&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2011&p3=anderry01&y3=2011&p4=smithjo03&y4=2011&p5=gasolpa01&y5=2011&p6=boshch01&y6=2011



So I'm wondering how people honestly answer my question, when they really step back and think about it....

Why isn't he considered a top 10 PF?

Why isn't he considered a top 50 player in the NBA?

TheMagnus wrote:

aliveandkickin wrote:

I like Sap but not sure he'd crack the top 10 PF's. There's a lot of great players in the other positions that're better than him so 53 seems pretty good. Magnus how would you rank the top PF's?

Depends on who you call a "Power Forward"...

To answer your question I will limit it to guys that spend most of their floor time playing PF, and just like the ESPN rankings I will base it primarily on last years play...

1. Kevin Love
2. Blake Griffin
3. Lamarcus Aldridge

Those 3 were kind of in a class by themselves last year, and however you want to order them, there is little doubt that they are the top 3 Power Forwards in the NBA right now.

4. Pau Gasol
5. Josh Smith
6. Paul Millsap
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Ryan Anderson
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Chris Bosh

Zach Randolph probably would have made the list if he was healthy, but he barely played last year and wasn't that great when he did.

I'd honestly say Millsap was a borderline top 5 Power Forward last year, I had to fight the Homer in me to not put him at #4 because when I step back and look at all of the evidence of what they brought to the court last year there really isn't that much separating #4 from #9. When you look past the name recognition (Bosh) and the thinking they are still what they used to be (Garnett, Gasol, Nowizki), and get down to what these players actually did on the floor for their teams, Paul measures up very well in pretty much every way possible. He was the 1b best player (Jefferson 1a) on a Western Conference playoff team, his numbers compare favorably both offensively and defensively to other "top tier" Power Forwards, he doesn't take a lot of bad shots or hurt his team with his attitude, he's only 27 years old, he doesn't get hurt very often, and he has improved and expanded his game every season he's been in the NBA...

But hey, this is all subjective right? So watch the games, look at the numbers, see for yourself...

Here's a side by side comparison of last seasons production with Millsap and 5 other Power Forwards that are considered "elite" by most people...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2012&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2012&p3=anderry01&y3=2012&p4=smithjo03&y4=2012&p5=gasolpa01&y5=2012&p6=boshch01&y6=2012

And it's not like that is a fluke, he did the same thing last year...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2011&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2011&p3=anderry01&y3=2011&p4=smithjo03&y4=2011&p5=gasolpa01&y5=2011&p6=boshch01&y6=2011



So I'm wondering how people honestly answer my question, when they really step back and think about it....

Why isn't he considered a top 10 PF?

Why isn't he considered a top 50 player in the NBA?

There are so many really decent pfs in the league, it's hard to rate them 1 to 5 or 1 to 20. Players like Humphries and Ibaka that specialize in certain aspects of the game, and how they excell on their teams could place them higher on the list. Tim Duncan isn't even on the list provided, but anyone looking at basketball in 2012 has to realize he could legitimately be in the top 5 of PFs. Where is Zach Randolph on this list? He was coming off an injury this year, and didn't perform at a top 5 level, but-- he really is a serious contender for top 5. David West also went through some injury and adjustment woes, but he's sitting at top 30 PFs that might at any moment move in to the top 5. It's a tough question.

Saint Louis wrote:

There are so many really decent pfs in the league, it's hard to rate them 1 to 5 or 1 to 20. Players like Humphries and Ibaka that specialize in certain aspects of the game, and how they excell on their teams could place them higher on the list. Tim Duncan isn't even on the list provided, but anyone looking at basketball in 2012 has to realize he could legitimately be in the top 5 of PFs. Where is Zach Randolph on this list? He was coming off an injury this year, and didn't perform at a top 5 level, but-- he really is a serious contender for top 5. David West also went through some injury and adjustment woes, but he's sitting at top 30 PFs that might at any moment move in to the top 5. It's a tough question.

I'm not saying it's not a little challenging, and mostly subjective, heck, it's hard enough figuring out who is actually a PF.

what I am saying is that when people make excuses as to why they don't rate Millsap higher it must be based almost entirely on subjective measures and not what he actually does on the court, because his production, his stats, and his impact on his team, all clearly establish him higher than the recognition he is usually given.

I think that Paul has shown he's one of the most efficient solid players around. Great teammate too. But for not being ranked higher I think its got something to do with him being considered a guy that can't get his shot very well on his own. Certainly, this is most likely just an opinion. Statistically, his numbers may be equal to or better than Dirk, or Kevin Love etc. But is Paul a guy that this team can just go to when they need a bucket? Or does a play need to be run, with picks, movement etc to get him open for a shot. He hits a good percentage, but it doesn't seem like he's a "go-to" guy like the other PF's or top 50 types who can get their own shot when needed. I think thats the biggest difference and why he's not considered elite. I think it's also the reason that alot of people out there will "rank" Al higher than Paul, because he is more of a go-to guy when a bucket is needed. And actually, I think in that ONE ASPECT, Al is better. He's better at getting a bucket on his own when needed.
Elite players are those guys you can just get the ball to and let him work. Doesn't mean Paul isn't great, but I bet thats part of it.

Mutangclan wrote:

I think that Paul has shown he's one of the most efficient solid players around. Great teammate too. But for not being ranked higher I think its got something to do with him being considered a guy that can't get his shot very well on his own. Certainly, this is most likely just an opinion. Statistically, his numbers may be equal to or better than Dirk, or Kevin Love etc. But is Paul a guy that this team can just go to when they need a bucket? Or does a play need to be run, with picks, movement etc to get him open for a shot. He hits a good percentage, but it doesn't seem like he's a "go-to" guy like the other PF's or top 50 types who can get their own shot when needed. I think thats the biggest difference and why he's not considered elite. I think it's also the reason that alot of people out there will "rank" Al higher than Paul, because he is more of a go-to guy when a bucket is needed. And actually, I think in that ONE ASPECT, Al is better. He's better at getting a bucket on his own when needed.
Elite players are those guys you can just get the ball to and let him work. Doesn't mean Paul isn't great, but I bet thats part of it.

That's a good point, and I agree with you about Al's "clutch" performance and your overall point, but I think it is both an indictment of the NBA fans and commentators preference for Hero-Ball thinking, and an exercise in the fallacy of perception, that what you say is true.

For the first part I think it is astonishing how much "clutch" performance and the ability to "create your own shot" are overvalued. The fact of the matter is that giving a guy the ball and expecting them to "create their own shot" is litterally one of the least effective and efficient ways to score anytime, but ESPECIALLY in "clutch" situations. The fact that a player would be valued more because they can supposedly do something that if they actually do it very often will only HURT their team (just ask Lebron and watch some film of the Knicks last year) kind of blows my mind.

For the second, in terms of Millsaps ability to hit shots that matter, and to perform in "clutch" situations, the perception of what you say (which I agree, that is probably the perception) doesn't match the reality of his performance. Pretty much the only time Millsap shoots 3's is during "clutch" time, and over the last two years he has hit an astonishing 50% (5-10) of those "clutch" attempts. His eFG% during crunch time is almost exactly what Jeffersons is, and he actually gets blocked less often than Jefferson does. The two biggest things that really set Jefferson appart in th eclutch are the fact that he doesn't turn the ball over (he's one of the best in the league in this area, while Millsap is a little worse than average) and he pulls down a very high number of offensive rebounds.

I honestly think it all just comes down to the fact that there is nothing about Millsap that is "exceptional", there is nothing that the average fan can grab on to and say "wow, that really makes him special", he's not tall, he's not crazy athletic, he can't shoot the ball form anywhere, he's not flamboyant, he doesn't have an ugly neck tatoo, he doesn't constantly post pictures of himself half (or fully) naked on twitter, so the natural (read LAZY and IGNORANT) conclusion, the PERCEPTION, is that he must not be special.

At this point that is the only explanation that I can come up with, because objectively there simply is too much evidence to show that he is better than people give him credit for and that the common perception of him significantly undervalues his performance.

TheMagnus wrote:

That's a good point, and I agree with you about Al's "clutch" performance and your overall point, but I think it is both an indictment of the NBA fans and commentators preference for Hero-Ball thinking, and an exercise in the fallacy of perception, that what you say is true.

For the first part I think it is astonishing how much "clutch" performance and the ability to "create your own shot" are overvalued. The fact of the matter is that giving a guy the ball and expecting them to "create their own shot" is litterally one of the least effective and efficient ways to score anytime, but ESPECIALLY in "clutch" situations. The fact that a player would be valued more because they can supposedly do something that if they actually do it very often will only HURT their team (just ask Lebron and watch some film of the Knicks last year) kind of blows my mind.

For the second, in terms of Millsaps ability to hit shots that matter, and to perform in "clutch" situations, the perception of what you say (which I agree, that is probably the perception) doesn't match the reality of his performance. Pretty much the only time Millsap shoots 3's is during "clutch" time, and over the last two years he has hit an astonishing 50% (5-10) of those "clutch" attempts. His eFG% during crunch time is almost exactly what Jeffersons is, and he actually gets blocked less often than Jefferson does. The two biggest things that really set Jefferson appart in th eclutch are the fact that he doesn't turn the ball over (he's one of the best in the league in this area, while Millsap is a little worse than average) and he pulls down a very high number of offensive rebounds.

I honestly think it all just comes down to the fact that there is nothing about Millsap that is "exceptional", there is nothing that the average fan can grab on to and say "wow, that really makes him special", he's not tall, he's not crazy athletic, he can't shoot the ball form anywhere, he's not flamboyant, he doesn't have an ugly neck tatoo, he doesn't constantly post pictures of himself half (or fully) naked on twitter, so the natural (read LAZY and IGNORANT) conclusion, the PERCEPTION, is that he must not be special.

At this point that is the only explanation that I can come up with, because objectively there simply is too much evidence to show that he is better than the common perception of him significantly undervalues his performance.

Sure, you're right. It is the hero-ball mentality, but that of course all stems from the big business NBA: shoes, commercials etc. And I must add, you'll see I did not agree with that thinking. I've never been one, and you can see from my posts, that loves the NBA "star" verses the team first way of playing. But agree or not, theres your "elite" tag right there. I think there are only a few elite players of all time personally. Elite should be reserved for those that are good offensively and defensively AND give 100% on both ends. Jordan was elite. Duncan elite etc.

But I do think that there are two topics on here that are getting mashed together. One, the hero-ball/star dominant offense:Lebron. Then two, the "elite" or star tag for a player and why Paul hasn't gotten it. I'm going to ignore the hero-ball offense, since I of course agree it's the least effective. And personally, is annoying for me to watch.

But as for the elite tag, and get a shot whenever they want stuff, I think thats purely the reason for Pauls lack of respect, as I said before. And looking at all the supposed elite players from the past, the majority of them were those types of guys. That no matter what the defense did, there were a ton of times where those elite players just scored when they want. And "elite" players being able to get their own shot(Slobe/LBJ/Duncan/Jordan/Isaiah Thomas/TMac of old etc) is extremely over-valued, of course. I agree it is. I will say however, it's not so much over-valued when you have a tough defensive team like the 2000 era Pistons that are up one with 5 seconds left, and Orlando has the ball. They can go into Tmac and "let him do his thing" to score the winning bucket. Not so much over-valued there. And thats the sole reason Paul wont be considered elite, right or wrong. That, and any idea what shoe he wears???

Again, as I've said a million times on here, I personally prefer 5 solid players verses one superstar and 4 other alright players.

As for the clutch situations, Paul is still on a team that moves the ball and looks for the best shot, normally. When he hit all those 3's against Miami that game, he got those shots a) because he never takes them so they didn't guard him there and b)because he was the open guy, for the most part. It wasn't like he "went to work" etc. Hes successful on this type of team that moves the ball and looks for the best shot, because he's smart and gives 100%. He looks for the defender to look away then he hits the hole or opening. He gets himself in position to rebound or score. He plays defense, does the little things etc. He's great on a TEAM.

So in the end, sadly, I agree with you. And thats why when the schedule comes out and AGAIN we have to watch the Heat play the Lakers on Christmas, or when I go to sports type store and have ZERO Jazz stuff but every kind of Lebron/Slobe tshirt in the world, or of course Heat/Fakers lunchboxes, I just am irritated. Good news is for us jazzfans, those expert player rankings dont make a damn bit of difference. Keep underrating the Jazz and their players. I guess the only person hurt in all this is Paul Millsap, who instead of negotiating a max contract, is hoping for a 10m per contract and HOPEFULLY 5 years.

Mutangclan wrote:

So in the end, sadly, I agree with you. And thats why when the schedule comes out and AGAIN we have to watch the Heat play the Lakers on Christmas, or when I go to sports type store and have ZERO Jazz stuff but every kind of Lebron/Slobe tshirt in the world, or of course Heat/Fakers lunchboxes, I just am irritated. Good news is for us jazzfans, those expert player rankings dont make a damn bit of difference. Keep underrating the Jazz and their players. I guess the only person hurt in all this is Paul Millsap, who instead of negotiating a max contract, is hoping for a 10m per contract and HOPEFULLY 5 years.

Ya, but like I said before, it seems to have been fuel for Millsap throughout his career, driving him to better himself, so maybe it's for the best all the way around.


I should also note that what is without question the biggest injustice/overvaluation of the Player Rankings keeps getting bigger, currently at #47 and we still haven't seen Amare Stoudemire. He wasn't even a top 20 Power Forward last year, much less a top 50 player.

#44 Al Jefferson, Score 6.87

I'd say that is way low for big Al too. By almost any measure he was a top 5 C in the NBA, he was significantly better than many of the guys that are ranked ahead of him, he had an All-Star calliber season last year, and I think he was easily a top 30 player.

#NORESPECTFORUTAH

So that wraps it up, here are the ESPN Player Rankings for our Utah Jazz...


#483 Kevin Murphy, score 1.85

#380 DeMarre Carroll, score 2.72

#347 Jamaal Tinsley, score 2.91

#342 Jeremy Evans, score 2.93

#323 Earl Watson, score 3.12

#310 Raja Bell, score 3.25

#242 Alec Burks, score 3.88

#205 Enes Kanter, score 4.28

#201 Randy Foye, score 4.33

#163 Marvin Williams, score 4.69

#125 Mo Williams, score 5.06

#123 Gordon Hayward, score 5.09

#89 Derrick Favors, score 5.61

#53 Paul Millsap, Score 6.55

#44 Al Jefferson, Score 6.87

Thanks for the responses on Millsap. I don't consider him elite because of his lack of size in the position he plays. Plain and simple he has to work harder on defense against a guy that can post him and on offense he has to spin or fade away in the post against bigger players. This sets him down a notch from guys with the same skills he has. I undervalue him as a pf because of those reasons. I value him because, despite his lack of size, he can put up respectable numbers and his character - playing hurt, fearless, good teammate, etc... Makes him impossible not to like. That said, hero-ball or not, games come down to isolation performances late in the forth where a team can exploit the opponent. His size disadvantage (at PF) is glaring when a team (and most teams do) have a bigger guy that can shoot over him...and he can't shoot over them. That's how the game is played for good reason. As far as overall ability, hussle, and determination Paul may very well be in the top 20, but as we know, games are won and lost, not by overall ability, but advantages in missmatches. This is why I'd take Bosh over Sap anyday or Garnett (age not withstanding) , Aldridge, Dirk, Gasol, Randolph, Favors, Duncan, Blake, Love, and Amare (when healthy). They all bring things to the table at PF that Sap (bless his little soul) can't match. And yes I went there with Favors because he's a better defender against the other bigs around the basket - not to mention his potential offensively.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

So in the end, sadly, I agree with you. And thats why when the schedule comes out and AGAIN we have to watch the Heat play the Lakers on Christmas, or when I go to sports type store and have ZERO Jazz stuff but every kind of Lebron/Slobe tshirt in the world, or of course Heat/Fakers lunchboxes, I just am irritated. Good news is for us jazzfans, those expert player rankings dont make a damn bit of difference. Keep underrating the Jazz and their players. I guess the only person hurt in all this is Paul Millsap, who instead of negotiating a max contract, is hoping for a 10m per contract and HOPEFULLY 5 years.

Ya, but like I said before, it seems to have been fuel for Millsap throughout his career, driving him to better himself, so maybe it's for the best all the way around.


I should also note that what is without question the biggest injustice/overvaluation of the Player Rankings keeps getting bigger, currently at #47 and we still haven't seen Amare Stoudemire. He wasn't even a top 20 Power Forward last year, much less a top 50 player.

Right. And I'll take it. Give me 5 guys who are talented, but regularly get disrespected and have to prove themselves, any day over 5 guys who are good but over-rated.
Think about it: our starting 6 players, ALL of them have a chip and want to prove themselves this year(again, for some.) for different reasons. Some are getting ranked low by experts, some are labeled as a loser wherever he goes, some where drafted way to high, some where drafted EXTREMELY too high and was looked at as a failure, some was tossed away like garbage to get a good player, and others had starting positions taken from them, and are looked at as a player that can't lead. That translates to a team that goes all out every game. And why I love this team. I think by the end of this year, we're going to have a starting 6+ that all are saying "see, I told you *%$!!$#%!'s we would.

aliveandkickin wrote:

Thanks for the responses on Millsap. I don't consider him elite because of his lack of size in the position he plays. Plain and simple he has to work harder on defense against a guy that can post him and on offense he has to spin or fade away in the post against bigger players. This sets him down a notch from guys with the same skills he has. I undervalue him as a pf because of those reasons. I value him because, despite his lack of size, he can put up respectable numbers and his character - playing hurt, fearless, good teammate, etc... Makes him impossible not to like. That said, hero-ball or not, games come down to isolation performances late in the forth where a team can exploit the opponent. His size disadvantage (at PF) is glaring when a team (and most teams do) have a bigger guy that can shoot over him...and he can't shoot over them. That's how the game is played for good reason. As far as overall ability, hussle, and determination Paul may very well be in the top 20, but as we know, games are won and lost, not by overall ability, but advantages in missmatches. This is why I'd take Bosh over Sap anyday or Garnett (age not withstanding) , Aldridge, Dirk, Gasol, Randolph, Favors, Duncan, Blake, Love, and Amare (when healthy). They all bring things to the table at PF that Sap (bless his little soul) can't match. And yes I went there with Favors because he's a better defender against the other bigs around the basket - not to mention his potential offensively.

Wow!! What a great post Alive!! Not even whether I agree or not, but so BOLD!! I love it....rep point for sure, hah.

BUT!! Really??? Bosh? And the others highlighted?? Bosh I just never liked though actually, so it's personal. Dirk I would have highlighted since he has non-existant D, but he is a guy thats been unstoppable for the most part offensively. Garnett?? You had to mean the younger version, then I agree. Aldridge??? What does he do? That and Amare are most surprising. Blake, man, he's a highlight film, but he doesn't do anything else!(yet). The others, sure.
But man, what a great post

aliveandkickin wrote:

Thanks for the responses on Millsap. I don't consider him elite because of his lack of size in the position he plays. Plain and simple he has to work harder on defense against a guy that can post him and on offense he has to spin or fade away in the post against bigger players. This sets him down a notch from guys with the same skills he has. I undervalue him as a pf because of those reasons. I value him because, despite his lack of size, he can put up respectable numbers and his character - playing hurt, fearless, good teammate, etc... Makes him impossible not to like. That said, hero-ball or not, games come down to isolation performances late in the forth where a team can exploit the opponent. His size disadvantage (at PF) is glaring when a team (and most teams do) have a bigger guy that can shoot over him...and he can't shoot over them. That's how the game is played for good reason. As far as overall ability, hussle, and determination Paul may very well be in the top 20, but as we know, games are won and lost, not by overall ability, but advantages in missmatches. This is why I'd take Bosh over Sap anyday or Garnett (age not withstanding) , Aldridge, Dirk, Gasol, Randolph, Favors, Duncan, Blake, Love, and Amare (when healthy). They all bring things to the table at PF that Sap (bless his little soul) can't match. And yes I went there with Favors because he's a better defender against the other bigs around the basket - not to mention his potential offensively.

I appreciate your honesty, but it does reinforce my point. The reasons for undervaluing Millsap have almost nothing to do with what he actually does, and everything to do with what you THINK he can or can't do.

I'd also argue that the bolded is how losers play the game (hey Melo!). Elite teams don't become elite teams until they can overcome the urge to rely on Hero ball and trust each other enough to run their offence, even when that is hard, and get good shots (See this years finals teams for exhibits A and B). The notion that Hero ball wins games is 100% fallacy. I think you make a good point about matchups, better players and favorable matchups absolutely wins ball games, but your theoretical notion about who carries those advantages and why is highly suspect.

I agree with what has been said here. I'm going out on the limb and stating now that the top eight jazz players rated this year will each be lower next year. With that being said, Burks will take the biggest jump to starrdom ending up in the top 125 for next year, along with both Mo and Marvin Williams(top 125), and Kanter will be top 150. Hayward will be top 75 and Favors will join Milsap and Jefferson in the top 50. That gives us all eight players in the top 150 next year. Dangerous team for sure. Foye could also slide in here somewhere.

We all get to watch Milsap play every game while others in the media don't get to see him play as much. Reputation goes along ways in this ranking and it is hard to get notice when we aren't playing deep into the playoffs.

Next year we get more respect.