ESPN Player Rankings

TheMagnus wrote:

Dirks shooting game is ageless because it doesn't rely on athleticism, but overall he's simply not elite anymore, and frankly he hasn't been for a number of years. Elite players contribute in all aspects of the game. That Dallas championship team was loaded with solid players that were designed to compensate for his weaknesses and compliment his strengths, if you slapped him in this Jazz team for Millsap you would have two of the slowest players in the NBA playing side by side for 25-30 minutes a game, you'd have Jefferson standing around while Dirk went to work and nobody on the offensive glass while Jefferson does his thing, and all of that is on top of the fact that trading Dirk for Millsap is a sideways move in terms of what they overall bring to a team in terms of winning games.

Im not sure I do or do not agree with Dirk being elite. You said it, his game has never relied on athleticism. Last year he shot 46%, and he's shot 47% for his career. As a 90% perimeter player, thats good, and consistent. That top of the key fadeaway is still just as lethal as Duncans bank shot...or actually more so.

Bold is 100% true. So hard to really compare these two players once again. But Dirks outside big man shooting would however compliment Al's good post scoring, much like Memo was supposed to do for Booz. I still think that Jazz team is better with Dirk, but side by side, overall Paul is the better OVERALL player now. And gawd I hate Dirk!

Millsap is easily more valuable at this point. Over a whole career Dirk wins the value match easy, but at this point Dirk only having a few good years left and millsap in his prime this makes millsap worth more value stars NBA 2K speaking. And MuTang I agree with mostly all of your points on jeffrsons strengths because I know he is a really good talented offensive player with plenty of strengths to his game, but my views are still the same. And we will see during the season. If jefferson is dogging it in games and not hustling I'm going to bring that shizz up and if he is out there giving his effort I will gladly crown you the winner of this argument. And btw I would really like to crown you victor of this argument because that would make me happy to see Jefferson out there hustlin. I'm also really looking forward to shredding these threads with how good Gordon Favors Burks and Kanter are playin. I would love to see Burks crack the staring lineup this year, I don't see him being the starter at the start of the season but if the kid fixes a few of the rookie mental errors he had last year he is going to be dangerous

VERY interesting how Magnus claims Millsap is in the top five at the PF position yet the Jazz are hesitant to throw 10 mill a yr at him. To me it seems they would want to jump all over that!! ...or promise him what he's worth not offending an elite player if they cant offer him more now. Afterall Millsap is Elite right? What a joke. Paul shoots 50% from the ft line in the playoffs but hey folks he's elite. His fg% goes down from the reg season in the playoffs but he's clutch right. Paul's point average goes from 16 reg season to 12 in the playoffs but somehow he should get a Max contract ..

He's the girl you don't want to commit to with an expensive ring because the overall attraction isn't there. The Jazz want to keep their options open. If Sap were elite that wouldn't be the case.

The absurd numbers you bring up Magnus don't mean Jack to Jazz brass. You obviously can't swallow your pride and admit Sap isn't elite.
Elite players elevate their game in the playoffs like Dirk did even though he got swept this yr. His averaged points went from 21 to 26. His ft% went up! His fg% went up in the playoffs. His three point % went down but he only took 6 threes.
He has a game the opponent has to game-plan against -not meaningless stats that Sap can block shots or steal the ball better.

Afraid to conduct that poll much? What a joke. It'll be hysterical when Dirk is voted around the top 10 or better, but HEY, Sap is more efficient at stealing the ball right Magnus. Hehe. Funny stuff.

NBAonespn says "Millsap #53, that's the highest you're going to see a player that frankly should be a backup."

Guess the Jazz Brass agree...

aliveandkickin wrote:

VERY interesting how Magnus claims Millsap is in the top five at the PF position yet the Jazz are hesitant to throw 10 mill a yr at him. To me it seems they would want to jump all over that!! Afterall Millsap is Elite right? What a joke. Paul shoots 50% from the ft line in the playoffs but hey folks he's elite. His fg% goes down from the reg season in the playoffs but he's clutch right. Paul's point average goes from 16 reg season to 12 in the playoffs but somehow he should get a Max contract ...

Repeat after me "Millsap is barely above average as a power forward or the Jazz would jump at the chance to sign him cheap."

He's the girl you don't want to commit to with an expensive ring because the overall attraction isn't there. The Jazz want to keep their options open. If Sap were elite that wouldn't be the case.

The absurd numbers you bring up Magnus don't mean Jack to Jazz brass. You obviously can't swallow your pride and admit Sap isn't elite.
Elite players elevate their game in the playoffs like Dirk did even though he got swept this yr. His averaged points went from 21 to 26. His ft% went up! His fg% went up in the playoffs. His three point % went down but he only took 6 threes.
He has a game the opponent has to game-plan against -not meaningless stats that Sap can block shots or steal the ball better.

Afraid to conduct that poll much? What a joke. It'll be hysterical when Dirk is voted around the top 10 or better, but HEY, Sap is more efficient at stealing the ball right Magnus. Hehe. Funny stuff.

NBAonespn says "Millsap #53, that's the highest you're going to see a player that frankly should be a backup."

Guess the Jazz Brass agree or they would have recently offered him more..

Call me crazy but i think any PF in the nba would need to be call elite just because? As far as top five goes nope 20 ok. Jazz want a deal and milslap wants one. Favors is standing there going i will be a top ten soon so why over pay when you have me. Trade will be the only way for the jazz to go now just because there will be NO over paying in the small markets. Have a great life paul i want to be the first to wish you the best with your new team!!!

Ditto. Love to keep Paul as a backup but he's probably going to another team and I wish him the best.
I was at the last Dallas vs Utah game when the Jazz won in triple overtime. Paul, if I remember right had a putback dunk to send it into one of the overtimes. Dirk had 40 points and a few threes to make it close. No one on the Jazz could guard him.
Paul is a great complimentary player. Nothing more, nothing less.

Zoonie wrote:

Millsap is easily more valuable at this point. Over a whole career Dirk wins the value match easy, but at this point Dirk only having a few good years left and millsap in his prime this makes millsap worth more value stars NBA 2K speaking. And MuTang I agree with mostly all of your points on jeffrsons strengths because I know he is a really good talented offensive player with plenty of strengths to his game, but my views are still the same. And we will see during the season. If jefferson is dogging it in games and not hustling I'm going to bring that shizz up and if he is out there giving his effort I will gladly crown you the winner of this argument. And btw I would really like to crown you victor of this argument because that would make me happy to see Jefferson out there hustlin. I'm also really looking forward to shredding these threads with how good Gordon Favors Burks and Kanter are playin. I would love to see Burks crack the staring lineup this year, I don't see him being the starter at the start of the season but if the kid fixes a few of the rookie mental errors he had last year he is going to be dangerous

Yea do bring it up please. At times I can lead toward the rainbows and puppies side of things, so do call me out!
Totally can't wait to watch the young guns this year too.

aliveandkickin wrote:

VERY interesting how Magnus claims Millsap is in the top five at the PF position yet the Jazz are hesitant to throw 10 mill a yr at him. To me it seems they would want to jump all over that!! ...or promise him what he's worth not offending an elite player if they cant offer him more now. Afterall Millsap is Elite right? What a joke. Paul shoots 50% from the ft line in the playoffs but hey folks he's elite. His fg% goes down from the reg season in the playoffs but he's clutch right. Paul's point average goes from 16 reg season to 12 in the playoffs but somehow he should get a Max contract ..

He's the girl you don't want to commit to with an expensive ring because the overall attraction isn't there. The Jazz want to keep their options open. If Sap were elite that wouldn't be the case.

Your words, not mine. My argument was never that Millsap was elite, it was that Dirk isn't. And a corollary to that was that if you are going to call some of these other guys, like Dirk, elite, then Millsap is elite too because as good or better as an overall player.

Clearly this whole argument was beyond your ability to grasp, so you go ahead and keep defending your position with quotes from twitter and claim victory in an argument we never had and points that you made up while I enjoy the rest of your drivel...

aliveandkickin wrote:

The absurd numbers you bring up Magnus don't mean Jack to Jazz brass. You obviously can't swallow your pride and admit Sap isn't elite.
Elite players elevate their game in the playoffs like Dirk did even though he got swept this yr. His averaged points went from 21 to 26. His ft% went up! His fg% went up in the playoffs. His three point % went down but he only took 6 threes.
He has a game the opponent has to game-plan against -not meaningless stats that Sap can block shots or steal the ball better.

Afraid to conduct that poll much? What a joke. It'll be hysterical when Dirk is voted around the top 10 or better, but HEY, Sap is more efficient at stealing the ball right Magnus. Hehe. Funny stuff.

NBAonespn says "Millsap #53, that's the highest you're going to see a player that frankly should be a backup."

Guess the Jazz Brass agree...

....Those other things don't mean jack to Jazz Brass? The Jazz brass agree? What the hell are you even talking about? Ever heard of the Miller Metric? Do you understand how contract extensions under the new CBA work?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the answers are No, and No.

But by all means, keep talking, heaven knows I love to watch a good clown.

Ok, enough Magnus. You're changing the debate and if there is a poll what it would be about. If anyone cares to put up a poll (which I doubt they do and I doubt you would because you know the outcome) the poll as I've followed the majority of our disagreement is "whom would you rather have right now if they switched teams, Dirk or Millsap?"

As far as the rest of the discussion I tend to agree with the 104 so called "experts" that have more clout than you and I, and so far as I can tell, there are around 12 power forwards ranked higher than Millsap.
I wouldn't and didn't call the other 12 elite but I sure wouldn't mind taking them over Millsap because I've seen Saps potential. Without going over every player in the 12 I'd rank above Millsap Id call most of them elite, especially when healthy. They are usually bigger than Paul and have either a weapon he doesn't have or can create a missmatch he can't create. I'd even take Favors over Sap at this point- not because he's elite yet but his upside is better than Paul's.

I'm fine if you don't agree with me and the majority of ppl. I respect disagreements!! I think I've fairly evaluated Paul Millsap as an outstanding player but he doesn't stand out in any area where I'd take him over Aldridge, Garnett (especially in the playoffs), Horford, Gasol, Bosh, Favors (reasons just given), Dirk, Amare (when healthy), Griffin, Love, and Randolf.

So that puts Sap around #12 on my list. You said on the first page of this thread that Paul should be ranked at PF at 5 , borderline 4. I mentioned that Sap is a tweener which he is!! He's smaller than most power forwards and can get posted easier than most PF's. That's just a fact!! Like it or not. We ended last yr and have questions directed at Corbin and KOC, even questions directed at Millsap if he's going to start this yr. Why has that been the case if Millsap is Elite or should be #4 or 5 as a PF in the entire league?
As far as the ins-and-outs of the new CBA you, I'm sure, can talk circles around most everyone on here. The point I questioned, if Millsap is elite, is why the Jazz would offend Paul with a low-ball offer when, as far as I know, they can offer him more when he's a free agent.... Doesn't prudence ask, if Paul's elite, they would wait to offer him a larger contract? Make sense? Or am I off-base with my reasoning and our discussion on who's elite in the league.

As far as advanced stats go- I love to look at them. I try to take meaning out of them, but I refuse to rely on them to determine if someone like Millsap is more clutch than Dirk. Like most fans I'll look at the big picture-- can Millsap create a missmatch when the clocks running down, is he a better defensive player against the big PF's in the league, etc...

I value Paul because I've seen him block Shack twice in a row, or move down to SF and do a decent job on Melo during the playoffs, but they are isolated times and incidences. On a consistent bases he doesn't dominate or make the opposition game-plan around him...thus not elite..

Love ya!
BTW, It's still a TKO bro in my not so humble opinion.
Thanks for sticking by your man, and being a Jazz fan.
Not so thankful for stats like true shooting %, efg%, and minor stuff that doesn't put Millsap over the top like being an above average Stealer and decent blocker (for his size ) but to each his own right!!

Still loving the playoff disparity numbers between Dirk and Sap... when they're all accounted for hehe. If only to support my argument - not as a Jazz fan.

I'm changing the debate? Look who just turned spinmeister?

I ranked him #6, I never said he was "elite", and I said that I considered putting him at #4 because I felt there were really only 3 "elite" PF's and then #4 though #9 (10 if you count Randolph) were all really close in the second tier, but I decided that was to homerish, even for me, so I put him at #6.

You kept bringing up Dirk, stating that he was "elite", to which I responded that Millsap was a better overall player than Dirk last year, which started the rest of this argument, which I clearly won by demonstrating that the only part of Dirks game that is still even above average is his scoring (a situation that is even more extreme in the playoffs), and that may make him an elite role-player (which, by-the-by, is what you keep calling Millsap), but no longer an elite player.

So you are right the argument has run it's course. It was enjoyable and well played.

Just because the timing was good......Hoopsworld.com writer Derek Page :

Chumpalump
In his chat, Stephen Botherson agrees how far an individual can carry a subpar team indicates a player’s impact on the game. Citing Drik Nowtizki’s teams who almost always win 50+ games despite a constant turnover of players. I was surprised in the two years MJ wannabe didn’t have a dominant bigman in his supporting cast (Shaq, Bynum, or Gasol) the Lakers were a mere 7th seed and bounced in the first round of the playoffs by the Phoenix Suns both times. Do you agree with Botherson and the ability to carry a subpar team indicates a particular players impact on the game. And are you surprised how poor the Lakers were and how inefficient MJ wannabe was when he didn’t have a big man down low to help out.

Derek Page
To be fair, the Lakers didn’t exactly have an abundance of talent but you do present a valid point about how underrated Nowitzki is. What does the guy have to do to be regarded as one of the best players in basketball, not just Euro… Bottom line on MJ wannabe is that he is a great player. Even the great one’s need a good cast around them to rack up championships.

Mutangclan wrote:

Just because the timing was good......Hoopsworld.com writer Derek Page :

Chumpalump
In his chat, Stephen Botherson agrees how far an individual can carry a subpar team indicates a player’s impact on the game. Citing Drik Nowtizki’s teams who almost always win 50+ games despite a constant turnover of players. I was surprised in the two years MJ wannabe didn’t have a dominant bigman in his supporting cast (Shaq, Bynum, or Gasol) the Lakers were a mere 7th seed and bounced in the first round of the playoffs by the Phoenix Suns both times. Do you agree with Botherson and the ability to carry a subpar team indicates a particular players impact on the game. And are you surprised how poor the Lakers were and how inefficient MJ wannabe was when he didn’t have a big man down low to help out.

Derek Page
To be fair, the Lakers didn’t exactly have an abundance of talent but you do present a valid point about how underrated Nowitzki is. What does the guy have to do to be regarded as one of the best players in basketball, not just Euro… Bottom line on MJ wannabe is that he is a great player. Even the great one’s need a good cast around them to rack up championships.

Good points. Dirk has always carried those $80+ million teams that Cuban just cobbles together off the streets to 50+ wins...I wonder how he does it? [/sarcasm]

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Just because the timing was good......Hoopsworld.com writer Derek Page :

Chumpalump
In his chat, Stephen Botherson agrees how far an individual can carry a subpar team indicates a player’s impact on the game. Citing Drik Nowtizki’s teams who almost always win 50+ games despite a constant turnover of players. I was surprised in the two years MJ wannabe didn’t have a dominant bigman in his supporting cast (Shaq, Bynum, or Gasol) the Lakers were a mere 7th seed and bounced in the first round of the playoffs by the Phoenix Suns both times. Do you agree with Botherson and the ability to carry a subpar team indicates a particular players impact on the game. And are you surprised how poor the Lakers were and how inefficient MJ wannabe was when he didn’t have a big man down low to help out.

Derek Page
To be fair, the Lakers didn’t exactly have an abundance of talent but you do present a valid point about how underrated Nowitzki is. What does the guy have to do to be regarded as one of the best players in basketball, not just Euro… Bottom line on MJ wannabe is that he is a great player. Even the great one’s need a good cast around them to rack up championships.

Good points. Dirk has always carried those $80+ million teams that Cuban just cobbles together off the streets to 50+ wins...I wonder how he does it? [/sarcasm]

Hah, point is your Magnus, and Chumpalump isnt the Mutang!

Btw Alice Blake is only an inch taller than sap and is a considerably worse defender. Love is 6"10 and is a much worse defender. Amare is also a bad defender. I'd take millsap over any of those 3 playing D on anyone in the league. Because even though a guy like Dwight Howard is going to dominate all 4 millsap will get way more steals and just as many blocks as any of them. He's plays harder than all of them and is the best perimeter defender of the 4. I would still take griffen and love over millsap but not Amare, the guy got WAY overhyped because Steve Nash. He has done nothing but suck in NY. Just watch the dip in gortats production this year from last.