ESPN Player Rankings

Interesting you didn't answer my questions hehe. How about the nonhyperthetical one of HOW is Sap more elite when he averaged 12 points in the playoffs this yr compared to 26? That stat doesn't mislead! !! If Sap were elite he'd put up more points!! Dirk elevated his game in the playoffs and Sap didn't. How many examples do you need that aren't opinion? ??? K, I proved my point. No need for you to try to keep spinning, and spinning, and spinning. I'm done here. TKO!! And still aliveankickin

aliveandkickin wrote:

Interesting you didn't answer my questions hehe. How about the nonhyperthetical one of HOW is Sap more elite when he averaged 12 points in the playoffs this yr compared to 26? That stat doesn't mislead! !! If Sap were elite he'd put up more points!! Dirk elevated his game in the playoffs and Sap didn't. How many examples do you need that aren't opinion? ??? K, I proved my point. No need for you to try to keep spinning, and spinning, and spinning. I'm done here. TKO!! And still aliveankickin

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

So far you gave 1 legitimate example, points scored in the playoffs, and even though you are dead wrong when you say Dirk "elevated his game" (how many games did they win?), he was better than Paul offensively, in the playoffs, so I'll give you that. Other than that it's just been a lot of hand waving, invoking the wisdom of the masses, and talking about what used to be as you ignore a mountain of statistical evidence that last season, 2011-2012, you know, all 66 games of it, Paul Millsap was as good or better than Dirk Nowitski both offensively and defensively, in regular time, and in clutch situations.

So call it Misanthropy if you want, but while you and the rest of the "experts" keep looking for Dirk to produce WMD's he no longer has, I'll be waiting patiently for the end of the year to collect on whatever you have decided to wager me and fighting the overwhelming urge to say "I told you so".

Ummmm Dirk had kidd setting him up and Terry knocking down 3's to stretch the floor. Millsap had Devin Harris sorely attempting to set him up an no one hitting 3's to stretch the floor so the Spurs would just collapse the paint. That is why dirks numbers were better than millsaps in the playoffs.

And Jason Terry is the reason the mavs won the championship against the heat. The guy shoots lights out in the playoffs. The mavs are going to miss him and the celtics are going to forget about Ray Allen really quick.

Zoonie wrote:

I'm not getting on Jefferson for being slow, I know he is slow. But to say the guy is in great shape is flat out wrong. The guy is constantly tired after a five minute or so span, he is constantly walking back on defense an offense for that matter, the guys hustle is non-existent, he gives up on plays when he "thinks" he is beat. I like Jefferson a lot I have since the t wolves traded for him (I'm a HUGE Vikings fan so I like all Minnesota teams) and the guy is really talented. But I really really really hate the fact that he doesn't put any effort into the game unless he has the ball. I'm just going off what I have seen every single game he has played since he has been here. And yes we have often relied on him to score for us when no one else can but other teams have relied on him to give up open layups for them to score. I like the guy and what he can do but I have never liked or wanted to play basketball with someone that only tries to score, it's very annoying to play with someone like that, and the fact that he makes 15+ million dollars a year and it's his job to try and play his best and hardest every game all game long, it really bugs me that he doesn't. And no one can say the guy has a winners mentality because it is obvious that he doesn't. I just don't think he is a good role model for this young talent packed team. I mean it's just my opinion and I have absolutely no problem with you guys having a different one it's just the way I feel and I can't change how my emotions react when he walks up and down the court and is consistently the last man down or when he gives up on a play. There are times he gets beat just because he is slow and I'm fine with that but there are also a lot of times that he gets beat because he could get there but he gives up instead. And those types of things are what separates good talented players from great talented players

What are you basing that off of? Sounds like nothing at all....the way he appears on the court? Ty Corbin and the Jazz brass were all raving last year about how good of shape Al came in. It wasn't my words or opinion, it was theirs.

Everybody has their opinion, and certainly opinions aren't wrong. But I do not agree at all. I think there is a HUGE difference in giving up on a play, and not being quick enough to defend it. And the latter is Al's problem sometimes.
And where is this Al is constantly tired after a 5 min span stuff coming from? That wasn't the case at all. Not to mention he led the team in minutes last year, which how does he do that if he's outta shape. Not to mention I never once saw him call to come out of the game. Also, as for walking back on defense, his guy was never beating him up and down the court. If he did, we all would have noticed it.

I just dont understand how you as a fan can know what is in Al's brain; that he "only tries to score" and doesn't try on defense. Its totally different from what he's built to do, and his abilities. He is a slow human being. He's slow. Just like Devin Harris was built as a quick person. Being in shape matters, but also how you're built.

How is it obvious to you that he doesn't have a winners mentality??? Because the guy I have seen is a fiery competitor, who goes up and hugs Millsap after a big play, or yells and pumps his fist.

And that last part, is just not true in my opinion. He's not constantly the last one down. But if he was, it was as often as Mark Eaton was; does that make Eaton a bad role model or someone who has a losers mentality?

Zoonie wrote:

And Iwasn't talking about how many games we have won becase of ALS offense. I was just statin that we have lost more games due o ALS lack of effort or inability to guard the pick and roll than we have by millsap getting outmatched by a bigger player ( which also happens to Jefferson, just watch a game against the kings cousins gets in his head and pushes him around like a ragdoll) and IMO we have won just as many or more games because of millsaps heroics late infourth quarter than ALS. We have also lost games due to the fact that we just relied on al to score and went into him 7 or so times In a row in the fourth and he would get double teamed and not pass out and either get a turnover or put up a bad shot and end up scoring 1 or 2 times out of those 7 tries. And I would like his offense a lot more if he was good at executing plays and such but he's not all too good at it. He is just a great 1 on 1 post player that can hit the 12-15 footer at 33%. And actually millsap has the best fg% around the basket and a some of that is due to his hustle rebounds and whatnot but he is better at finishing around the basket than Jefferson is especially with contact. Jefferson is just a lot better with his footwork and executing the post moves so he gets more open looks at the basket. Again just my opinion on the finishing part but millsap does have a better fg% in the paint

Where do you come up with that? It just seems like a guess. And kind of like CJ Miles could never do anything right in my eyes (which I might add I was right about! Mooohahahahaha), it seems like you have the same view on Al. Lots of us have our players we can't stand, and they can't do anything right. I just think Al is what he is: a great scorer in the post, a very good rebounder, a great teammate, a very good post defender, a very good shotblocker, a good FG% player, and a super-slow perimeter defender. Thats a ton of great things, with one negative.....

Zoonie wrote:

And plus Tyson Chandler might not be a talented guy on offense but he tries and hustles a lot more on offense than Jefferson does on defense. Plus the fact that Tyson Chandler runs around and sets a lot of good picks for guys is valuable to an offense. There is more to offense than scoring points. But at least he's out there giving the effort and playing hard that's the difference between ALS non-existent D and chandlers non-existent offense.

So Tyson Chandler is a better player because he averages, what, like 7 or 8pts on offense and 8 rebounds (guessing) with 2 blks, than Al who averages 20/10/2 ???

And PS: saying Al doesn't give effort or plays hard when he has the stats he does, just doesn't look right at all.

I get that he has a losers mentality by what he showed in the playoffs last year. Giving up and hanging his head sayin there is no way we could beat the spurs. A player with a winners mentality would never think that let alone say it to the media.

Stats don't say eveything man. So Monte Ellis is a great player because he gets his 20+ points because he is selfish and shoots 44 or so percent. Or Devin Harris is a good defender because he get a steal per game. People rely on stats too much. And yeah most of what I am saying is opinion from what I have seen in the 90 or so games i have watched al play in. And I'm totally fine with you having a completely different opinion, I actually like it cuz it gives us more to talk about, but if I based all my stuff on stats I wouldn't think Gordon was nearly as good as I know he is because tenacious D and hustle don't show up on the stat sheet. And al has more flaws than being slow and not guarding the perimeter. He doesn't look for teamates often enough, he is a black hole on offense. He settles for too many outside shots (he usually does this when he is tired IMO) he holds the ball too long and drains the shot clock so if he gets in trouble there isn't much time to recover from it. He really stuggles againts guys that don't fall for fakes like Tim Duncan and Nikola Pecovic to name a couple. He does play good position and gets his blocks but isn't very good at defending the basket other than 1 on 1 in the post. That is why Tony Parker got sooo many points in the paint even when he wasn't running the pick and roll. He isn't good at help defense like millsap is because he is too slow to get across the paint to help. Saying he has only 1 flaw is crazy IMO. But we can talk about this all we want it comes down to what the jazz want to do. Resign al for a max contract which he won't accept anything less or resign millsap and hopefully get him for arond 10 mill a year or just trade them both and move on with our young talented guys. I like option 2 the best, favors can always slide to center until kanter is ready to take on the starting spot.

And blocks don't say shit about a players post defense. Javale mcgee gets 2.5 blocks a game. Perkins gets maybe 1. Who is better at defending the basket? And al only led the team in blocks because favors got 12-15 less minutes a game than him. Tyson Chandler didn't have the best defensive stats but he got defensive player of the year because he is top 3 at defending the basket. Stats can be very very misleading my friend. I could care less what the the statsheet says when I watch the players on the jazz play game after game. All I can say is that other than cj miles al jeffersons play at times made me very mad and after those games I would see the stats and he would have a good statline but the little things he didn't do during the game would make me mad. Can't help it just what happens. Devin Harris was maybe worse in this area because he would often make me mad and he wouldn't have a good statline after the game. Stats help you understand some of what a player can do but they don't define a player.

Exhibit A that what some call Misanthropy is really just what I call the Ignorant-Mob-Believing-the-Hype, but I believe the technical term is a "Failure of Crowd intelligence" due to imitation or "Information Cascade". i.e. Smart guy says Player x has potential to be one of the best, pundits talk about Player x as becoming one of the best, mob thinks Player x is one of the best, and Player x is....

#30, Al Horford.

at Power Forward #53 Paul Millsap >> #30 Al Horford (and before you start talking about length and athleticism you might want to take a quick look at what Horford's Measurements are)

at Center or Power forward #44 Al Jefferson >>>>>> #30 Al Horford

That's right, forgot about Horford since he plays Some PF as well. That makes Paul #13 on my list at the PF position. Thanks for proving my point (again) bringing up Horfords size and being ranked above Paul - while they're both ranked lower AND haven't won anything . Keep digging your grave buddy. I do admire your loyalty to Milsap, and I hope the Jazz keep him cuz I doubt they'll be able to trade up for a better player. Unless they can entice a team like the Bobcats and give us their #1 pick next yr for Sap. That would be sweet! !! With Saps contract expiring and the Jazz will probably renew Jefferson and want to save money for Favors and Hayward, it makes sense to trade Sap to a team lottery bound. I don't like losing Paul but moneywise it makes sense. UNLESS Favors can fulfill his potential and we can keep Sap for around 8-9 million a yr being Favors' backup and playing spot duty at SF - Paul is destined to go. Of course Jefferson may have a ridiculous contract thrown at him the Jazz won't match. If that's the case then sign Sap and move Favors to center. The Jazz won't win a championship but with the last scenario they'll at least be good enough to make the playoffs.

Nice, you talk about putting your money where your mouth is and then when I take up the gauntlet you conveniently ignore it and just keep on talking like you are winning the argument. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as you've made a habbit of ignoring the things I show you. What's the matter champ, the dissonance getting the best of you?

Paul Millsap + Al Jefferson > Josh Smith + Al Horford

2012 Paul Millsap >= 2012 Dirk Nowitski

2012 Al Jefferson >= 2012 Dirk Nowitski

These are facts, supported by data, versus opinions, supported by other opinions.

I've been saying all along that if I had to chose between Millsap at $10 mil a year and Jefferson at $14+ mil (and I absolutely think they should keep one of them) I'm taking Millsap, that's a no brainer to me.

Zoonie wrote:

Stats don't say eveything man. So Monte Ellis is a great player because he gets his 20+ points because he is selfish and shoots 44 or so percent. Or Devin Harris is a good defender because he get a steal per game. People rely on stats too much. And yeah most of what I am saying is opinion from what I have seen in the 90 or so games i have watched al play in. And I'm totally fine with you having a completely different opinion, I actually like it cuz it gives us more to talk about, but if I based all my stuff on stats I wouldn't think Gordon was nearly as good as I know he is because tenacious D and hustle don't show up on the stat sheet. And al has more flaws than being slow and not guarding the perimeter. He doesn't look for teamates often enough, he is a black hole on offense. He settles for too many outside shots (he usually does this when he is tired IMO) he holds the ball too long and drains the shot clock so if he gets in trouble there isn't much time to recover from it. He really stuggles againts guys that don't fall for fakes like Tim Duncan and Nikola Pecovic to name a couple. He does play good position and gets his blocks but isn't very good at defending the basket other than 1 on 1 in the post. That is why Tony Parker got sooo many points in the paint even when he wasn't running the pick and roll. He isn't good at help defense like millsap is because he is too slow to get across the paint to help. Saying he has only 1 flaw is crazy IMO. But we can talk about this all we want it comes down to what the jazz want to do. Resign al for a max contract which he won't accept anything less or resign millsap and hopefully get him for arond 10 mill a year or just trade them both and move on with our young talented guys. I like option 2 the best, favors can always slide to center until kanter is ready to take on the starting spot.

Who's relying on stats? I'm providing stats. You say Al is a loser that doesn't care and gives up all the time. If that was the case, his teammates wouldn't even be able to stand him, correct? And I didn't say he only has one flaw, most players have more than one for sure. But what do you disagree with about my views on Al:

a great scorer in the post, a very good rebounder, a great teammate, a very good post defender, a very good shotblocker, a good FG% player, and a super-slow perimeter defender. And I'll add not a very good passer, but showed a willingness to pass more last year, and the want to

It just seems like sometimes fans need a punching bag. I think Al is what he is. He's not Lebron or a superstar. He does some things good and some bad. I just accept him for what he is, and 100% of that is based on my opinion that he does give 100% when he's on the court. He's just slow as shit. So since he's not good at post defense because he's slow as shit, thats quite different than not wanting to help. He's slow. Just like some players are quick.

Last, how do you know Al wont accept less? And in the same sentence HOPING Paul will accept 10?

Zoonie wrote:

And blocks don't say shit about a players post defense. Javale mcgee gets 2.5 blocks a game. Perkins gets maybe 1. Who is better at defending the basket? And al only led the team in blocks because favors got 12-15 less minutes a game than him. Tyson Chandler didn't have the best defensive stats but he got defensive player of the year because he is top 3 at defending the basket. Stats can be very very misleading my friend. I could care less what the the statsheet says when I watch the players on the jazz play game after game. All I can say is that other than cj miles al jeffersons play at times made me very mad and after those games I would see the stats and he would have a good statline but the little things he didn't do during the game would make me mad. Can't help it just what happens. Devin Harris was maybe worse in this area because he would often make me mad and he wouldn't have a good statline after the game. Stats help you understand some of what a player can do but they don't define a player.

And thats an interesting question. I'm assuming you mean Perkins is better at defending the basket? Without looking, I'd bet that McGee had more minutes in the playoffs than Perkins did last year....so who is better?

Al didn't just lead the team in blocks, he was top 5 in the NBA. Thats much different.
Also, it's not opinion. It was posted somewhere about Al's great post one on one defense. Thats not opinion.
Again, I'm not leaning on stats. I'm only bringing them up because you said all Al cares about is scoring, and is lazy. That counters that....
And man, I'd love it if Al was built like Chandler: long athletic build, good vertical instead of no vertical Mark Eaton type build. But he's not built like that.

TheMagnus wrote:

Paul Millsap + Al Jefferson > Josh Smith + Al Horford

2012 Paul Millsap >= 2012 Dirk Nowitski

2012 Al Jefferson >= 2012 Dirk Nowitski

These are facts, supported by data, versus opinions, supported by other opinions.

I've been saying all along that if I had to chose between Millsap at $10 mil a year and Jefferson at $14+ mil (and I absolutely think they should keep one of them) I'm taking Millsap, that's a no brainer to me.

For my two cents on this, I agree with your player comparisons. Paul and Al vs ___ are a better combo. And statistically just a straight up comparison, I also agree. But there are so many intangibles on why or what you're actually comparing...... if you do the down 1pt, with 5 seconds left, and you get the ball to each player to "go to work" and NOT run a play for them ala Hero Ball, Dirk is going to come out on top of Paul. However, if a play is run, and the Jazz are moving the ball and Paul gets an open shot, then I have faith in Paul. Then again, who has more of the ice in the veins MJ type of stuff? I'd say Dirk. Its so different if you just look at one shot, one player doing it on his own.
Over the course of an entire game though, and now in 2012, Paul will do more for the team. Huge difference.

I always think arguments about what a player will accept and what they won't are a little missleading.

They are going to take what they can get. Period.

The NBA is a buisness, and the players are not employees, they are the product. A product that is selling itself. So they are going to look at the money, and look at factors other than money, and they are going to take what they think is the best deal. For younger guys like Jefferson and Millsap who are in the prime of their careers and not at the level where they have multiple Max offers, the #1 overriding factor is money, and they are going to do whatever they can to maximize that return.

So the question isn't about what they will accept, it is about what they think they are worth, what they are actually worth, and whether or not the Jazz will be the ones willing to pay it.

That being said, I actually think the question of "what will it take to get them to stay?" if we are talking about contract EXTENTIONS is actually harder to answer for Jefferson than it is for Millsap. Because an extention is just two way barganing, and the price point is set by the market rather than by a multi team bidding process. Extentions for centers are one of the toughest to project because they are regularly overpaid and how team value them varies wildly. So for Centers, I think more than any other position, whether they are willing to sign and extention is about what they they player (and more importantly, their agent) thinks they are worth.

Without an extension, if he just goes out as a free agent, I think Jefferson will get offers that are about what he is making now, I'm thinking 4 years/$60 Mil, but my confidence in that isn't super high, the market could be cold and his offers could be as low as 50 Mil over 4 years, or maybe nobody even offers him 4 years but only 3, or he could get a Max offer from some team that really wants him. It's just really hard to say what would happen, and so it is really hard to say what he would be asking for in an extention.

I think guys like Ryan Anderson, Kirilenko, Gerald Wallace, Ilyasova have set the price point for Millsap at around $10 Million/year over 3+ years, I think that is pretty much what everybody knows his price is, and I think the only question left is whether the Jazz are willing to pay it. I personally think that if the Jazz offered him a 5 year deal worth 45 Mil he'd jump all over it, and he'd be a solid value at $9 Mil a year.

TheMagnus wrote:

I think guys like Ryan Anderson, Kirilenko, Gerald Wallace, Ilyasova have set the price point for Millsap at around $10 Million/year over 3+ years, I think that is pretty much what everybody knows his price is, and I think the only question left is whether the Jazz are willing to pay it. I personally think that if the Jazz offered him a 5 year deal worth 45 Mil he'd jump all over it, and he'd be a solid value at $9 Mil a year.

I hope you're right. But I dont have the same faith at all. I think another team offers him 4, for more per, and he takes that.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I think guys like Ryan Anderson, Kirilenko, Gerald Wallace, Ilyasova have set the price point for Millsap at around $10 Million/year over 3+ years, I think that is pretty much what everybody knows his price is, and I think the only question left is whether the Jazz are willing to pay it. I personally think that if the Jazz offered him a 5 year deal worth 45 Mil he'd jump all over it, and he'd be a solid value at $9 Mil a year.

I hope you're right. But I dont have the same faith at all. I think another team offers him 4, for more per, and he takes that.

Ya, the new rules for contract extensions are kind of a real bite in that regards, Millsap has to become a free agent before the Jazz can re-sign him. A lot of people are missinformed when it comes to Millsap and an extention, there will be no extention, those talks are dead because the most the Jazz could offer Millsap under the current CBA was a 3 year extension worth around $24 Million, and he'd be dumb to take that. But Millsaps next contract will end when he's in his 30's, that extra year and an extra couple million guaranteed could be very attractive.

Jefferson, on the other hand, could be offered 3 years and up to $48 Million, which he might consider, but I haven't heard a word about the Jazz even talking to Jefferson about an extension.

Magnus, I didn't ignore the stats in earlier posts. Your argument that Paul is better than Dirk didn't hold up statistically and I pointed that out in areas. Look at it this way. Dirk with Jefferson could win a championship rather than how it is now with Millsap. I could go on and on why that's the case, and I think 99% of the ppl here would agree, as well in the media - the Jazz would be talked about as contenders. THAT is the point of this ongoing debate. You can't deny even if it doesn't make sense moneywise. Dirk would make the Jazz contenders if they switched teams rather than what we're seeing now in the media with the Jazz getting no respect, or being mentioned in the same breath as a contender with Millsap. As far as betting with stats, love too! Ill betcha Dirk averages more points in the regular season and the playoffs. I'll bet he makes more threes in both as well. We can bet on defrb but not total rebounds cuz Dirks shooting more (which skill on the jazz he'd make them a contender!!!!). Other stats like steals and blks Millsap would win!! I pointed this out!! Also Dirk is superior at ft% which I'm willing to bet. The steals and blks catagory that Sap would win doesn't put the Jazz over the top to win Jack!!! Much like Jefferson being in the top five in blks didn't help them win Jack. We're debating who's elite bro, remember? ?? Not irrelevant stats that are nice to look at, stats you continually bring up to support a dead argument. So take this post and spin it. If you want to bet I'd love too!!!!! Send me a private message giving me your number, we'll meet for some grub, and work out the details of the bet!!!

aliveandkickin wrote:

Magnus, I didn't ignore the stats in earlier posts. Your argument that Paul is better than Dirk didn't hold up statistically and I pointed that out in areas. Look at it this way. Dirk with Jefferson could win a championship rather than how it is now with Millsap.

you pointed it out in exactly 1 area, and if you really believe that then maybe you're not as smart as I thought you were...

aliveandkickin wrote:

I could go on and on why that's the case,

Please, do...

aliveandkickin wrote:

and I think 99% of the ppl here would agree, as well in the media - the Jazz would be talked about as contenders. THAT is the point of this ongoing debate. You can't deny even if it doesn't make sense moneywise. Dirk would make the Jazz contenders if they switched teams rather than what we're seeing now in the media with the Jazz getting no respect, or being mentioned in the same breath as a contender with Millsap.

Horsepucky!!!! They'd be the worst defensive team in the NBA! Again, please conduct that poll, because I'd love to see it...

aliveandkickin wrote:

As far as betting with stats, love too! Ill betcha Dirk averages more points in the regular season and the playoffs. I'll bet he makes more threes in both as well. We can bet on defrb but not total rebounds cuz Dirks shooting more (which skill on the jazz he'd make them a contender!!!!). Other stats like steals and blks Millsap would win!! I pointed this out!! Also Dirk is superior at ft% which I'm willing to bet. The steals and blks catagory that Sap would win doesn't put the Jazz over the top to win Jack!!! Much like Jefferson being in the top five in blks didn't help them win Jack. We're debating who's elite bro, remember? ?? Not irrelevant stats that are nice to look at, stats you continually bring up to support a dead argument. So take this post and spin it. If you want to bet I'd love too!!!!! Send me a private message giving me your number, we'll meet for some grub, and work out the details of the bet!!!

HAAAA!!! thanks for that laughter, I needed that today.

Here's you trying to set the terms of the bet...."ok, we'll bet, but everything that Millsap is better at like defense doesn't matter, and everything that Dirk is better at makes him elite...steals don't matter, offensive rebounds don't matter, FG% doesn't matter, but points, those matter, and 3's too, those matter a lot..."

I'd love to meet up and get a bite and further discuss this but I don't think we even live in the same time zone. Besides, if we agree here then we have witnesses to brag too...

I'll meet you halfway, but you are clearly going to have to do some homework to get up to speed on what stats actually matter....

Here's the stat categories:

3 point categories - because if you want to be elite, you've got to be all around good. Based on regular season performance.

Player Efficiency Rating (PER) - An overal ranking of a players individual performance that typically favors offence heavy players. VERY VERY good at indicating who is percieved as "elite" and who isn't. Hollinigers PER ratings are universally respected.

Win Score per 48 minutes (WS48) - An overall ranking of a players performance that measures how much an individual player contributes to a teams overall success or how much they WIN. Typically favors high efficiency players, who contribute in multiple areas. this one can either be pulled form here or here.

2 point categories - Actually worth 4 points, 2 for regular season, 2 for "clutch" as measured here. Regular season is measured per game, "clutch is measured per 40 minutes time".

Total Points (PTS) - Points matter, and when determining "elite" status they matter more (I don't agree with that, but since you seem to care a great deal about it I am wiling to meet you halfway)

Total shooting % (TS%) - The overall efficiency of a players shooting. It assumes each opportunity to shoot is worth 2 points and factors in free throw shooting, three point shooting, and 2 pt shooting give an overal percentage of how many points a player scored per shot attempt. So if a player shoots a lot of 3's and/or draws a lot of free throws his TS% will be significantly higher than his FG%. The way it is calculated is as follows: Points/(2*FGA+.88*FTA)

1 point categories - each category is actually woth two points, but one if for overall and one is for "clutch" as measured here. Regular season is measured per game, "clutch is measured per 40 minutes time".

(You should know, this was dirks one saving grace last season, he shoots a lot of free throws and that greatly improves his TS%)

Total Rebounds (REB) - Your argument that Dirks O rebounds don't matter because he's always shooting is horseshit, Dirk is just a terrible offensive rebounder, and a mediocre rebounder overall. Kevin Love shot the ball more than Dirk and he averaged 4 offensive rebounds a game, MJ wannabe Bryant plays Shooting guard and shoots the ball WAY WAY WAY more and he gets more offensive rebounds than Dirk. And rebounding most definitely matters, it maters in game time, and it matter in crunch time, if your POWER FORWARD can't get a rebound, then you have a serious problem.

Turnovers (TO) - Tunovers matter.

Assists (AST) - Elite players create for their teamates.

Steals and Blocks (STL/BLK) - Elite players play D and create turnovers. Since we all know Dirk is a marginal defender at best (how does a guy 7 feet tall not block any shots?), and I don't want you bitching about favoring Millsap we'll combine these two so they are only worth half a point a piece.

What do you think? I heavily biased the scoring towards Dirks biggest (only) strength, scoring, even though it takes so much more than scoring to make a player elite.

Do we have a bet?

aliveandkickin wrote:

Look at it this way. Dirk with Jefferson could win a championship rather than how it is now with Millsap. I could go on and on why that's the case, and I think 99% of the ppl here would agree, as well in the media - the Jazz would be talked about as contenders. THAT is the point of this ongoing debate. You can't deny even if it doesn't make sense moneywise. Dirk would make the Jazz contenders if they switched teams rather than what we're seeing now in the media with the Jazz getting no respect, or being mentioned in the same breath as a contender with Millsap.

Now thats an interesting way to look at this debate.........All stats, winscores, PER's aside, if Dirk and Paul switched teams, would that make the Jazz better? Would Dallas still compete for a playoff spot?? Hmmmm. Even now, in 2012......looking at it like that, I think Utah gets better and maybe even competes. I think Dallas is MORE definitely out of the playoffs.
Man, I love Paul, but this saddens me.

Sure buddy let's bet. I'm responding from my phone and don't know how to do a poll from it or otherwise. Feel free to conduct the poll.

As far as being the worst defensive team swapping Dirk and Paul. They wouldn't be better with Dirk IMO, but with Favors emerging as a defensive force they wouldn't be the worst.
Dirks offense makes up for his "semi" lack of defense. Imagine - Dirk outside and Favors/Jefferson inside. Love to see THAT. Plus what Tang said rungs true- 5 seconds left on the shot clock, broken play (which happens a lot), give the ball to Dirk for his bread-n-butter 15 ft fadeaway or threepointer. NICE!!
On defense the jazz are more flexible with Dirk playing center at times. Why is Dirk more valuable you ask? He can create missmatches. Millsap is an all-around good player. THAT'S it. Btw, defensive rebounds they tied last yr at 6.0- your claiming Dirk can't rebound? ? HYSTERICAL... keep pumping out those advanced stats buddy. Ppl look at them and go blurry eyed then think " wait, what is Magnus TRYING to prove? Sap is more valuable than Dirk?" And they move on shaking their uninformed, less-intelligent heads. Wondering what else you'll come up with state wise to TRY to prove Millsap is better than Dirk. Who has the ring as the focal point of his team afterall?
Geez, Millsap may not be resigned cuz we may have to throw 10 mill a yr at him- guess the Jazz brass are dumb as well compared to you. HYSTERICALLY sad you'd be so proud not to concede this one point that Dirk us more valuable, individually and as a teammate, but I do like some of the stats you provide.

I've never claimed to be smart. I just like a good debate!! This one about Dirk being more valuable than Sap is obviously over hehe.

Now on to the bets!! Got a hot date tonight so I can't go over all those absurd stats and how you want to bet and how much??
Tell you what, here's a little homework assignment : go over those stats you brought up, put next to them how they did in each you want to bet (last yr and if you're feeling spunky the yr before) I'll take a look at the numbers and see what's up!

Let's keep in mind how Sap averaged 12 points compared to 26 in the playoffs. Hate that fact but it's major in this debate and brought the TKO right after it surfaced stat boy

Mutangclan wrote:

aliveandkickin wrote:

Look at it this way. Dirk with Jefferson could win a championship rather than how it is now with Millsap. I could go on and on why that's the case, and I think 99% of the ppl here would agree, as well in the media - the Jazz would be talked about as contenders. THAT is the point of this ongoing debate. You can't deny even if it doesn't make sense moneywise. Dirk would make the Jazz contenders if they switched teams rather than what we're seeing now in the media with the Jazz getting no respect, or being mentioned in the same breath as a contender with Millsap.

Now thats an interesting way to look at this debate.........All stats, winscores, PER's aside, if Dirk and Paul switched teams, would that make the Jazz better? Would Dallas still compete for a playoff spot?? Hmmmm. Even now, in 2012......looking at it like that, I think Utah gets better and maybe even competes. I think Dallas is MORE definitely out of the playoffs.
Man, I love Paul, but this saddens me.

You would think that, but you would be wrong. Especially since Dirk would not only take minutes from Millsap, but also Favors, because he can't play SF.

The predictable outcome if you swapped Dirk for Millsap is that Utah would go from being under-hyped to being over-hyped and proceed to have a "disappointing" season even if they manage to get into the playoffs, while the Mavs would instantly be slapped with the "rebuilding" label and written off completely before they proceed to "surprise" people by sneaking into the playoffs.

Dirks shooting game is ageless because it doesn't rely on athleticism, but overall he's simply not elite anymore, and frankly he hasn't been for a number of years. Elite players contribute in all aspects of the game. That Dallas championship team was loaded with solid players that were designed to compensate for his weaknesses and compliment his strengths, if you slapped him in this Jazz team for Millsap you would have two of the slowest players in the NBA playing side by side for 25-30 minutes a game, you'd have Jefferson standing around while Dirk went to work and nobody on the offensive glass while Jefferson does his thing, and all of that is on top of the fact that trading Dirk for Millsap is a sideways move in terms of what they overall bring to a team in terms of winning games.

lets just move past most of that blather....

aliveandkickin wrote:

Now on to the bets!! Got a hot date tonight so I can't go over all those absurd stats and how you want to bet and how much??
Tell you what, here's a little homework assignment : go over those stats you brought up, put next to them how they did in each you want to bet (last yr and if you're feeling spunky the yr before) I'll take a look at the numbers and see what's up!

Let's keep in mind how Sap averaged 12 points compared to 26 in the playoffs. Hate that fact but it's major in this debate and brought the TKO right after it surfaced stat boy

Done. Millsap wins the 2011-2012 season 13-9. Outside of 8 points for Total Points and TS% Dirks got nothing. 2010-2011 season Dirk wins easily.

How many rebounds did Dirk average in the playoffs? Steals? Blocks? Most importantly, how many Games did his team win? Ya man, he really elevated his play there, didn't he?

That's a victory for you... no doubt about it.

Remember to get your claim right in the Poll "trading Millsap for Dirk would make the Jazz a contender...."