ESPN Player Rankings

Mutangclan wrote:

I think that Paul has shown he's one of the most efficient solid players around. Great teammate too. But for not being ranked higher I think its got something to do with him being considered a guy that can't get his shot very well on his own. Certainly, this is most likely just an opinion. Statistically, his numbers may be equal to or better than Dirk, or Kevin Love etc. But is Paul a guy that this team can just go to when they need a bucket? Or does a play need to be run, with picks, movement etc to get him open for a shot. He hits a good percentage, but it doesn't seem like he's a "go-to" guy like the other PF's or top 50 types who can get their own shot when needed. I think thats the biggest difference and why he's not considered elite. I think it's also the reason that alot of people out there will "rank" Al higher than Paul, because he is more of a go-to guy when a bucket is needed. And actually, I think in that ONE ASPECT, Al is better. He's better at getting a bucket on his own when needed.
Elite players are those guys you can just get the ball to and let him work. Doesn't mean Paul isn't great, but I bet thats part of it.

You nailed it on the head, Mu. No matter what, to be considered an "elite" player in this league at your position you need to be a go-to threat. Paul gets his great stats the old fashioned way, both ends of the court, a little here and a little there and sometimes a completely beastly and dominant game or series of games. Not his fault, but he isn't the primary go-to guy when its on the line and you gotta get the ball to someone who can create. If I have to have two points in the post with time winding down I'm dumping it into Al and hope Sap gets the put-back. We have seen Sap play on an elite level on a game-by-game basis but in the end he is simply a really good player, top 50 in the league, who can start on any team, contender or otherwise, that doesn't have a better PF, at least 20 other teams. There is a part of me that wants to see him play for a legit contender and get the respect he deserves under the bright lights for his all-around game. The other part of me wants the Jazz to wrap him up for another 5 years at whatever market value is.

Ok, lets put it this way Magnus. Plain and more simple Millsap is a tweener. He's always going to be between good and great. He has onions. I like cheeseburgers with onions. Onions will never be the meat, nor the cheese for that matter, to satisfy a craving. If it does then you're in for a pickle... and who wants that... cept maybe Shelly- which is debateable.

Without going to a list and seeing if there are more guys that play PF (Pauls current postion)- the guys I mentioned have value over Millsap because of a certain skillset they bring to the table- and most of them are bigger. I didn't mention Ryan Anderson cause all I see he has over Paul is the threeball. Everyone else has something he can't match!!! Even Garnett, going into the playoffs, is more valueable than Sap if he's healthy- that includes Amare, when he's healthy. Even at this stage in his career Garnett can play defense on other PFers and centers. Garnett is a legit tweener PF/Center that can excell against either postion once they're in the playoffs. He's just hurt all the time untill Rondo and Pierce get him there but once they're there he can, and does, make a difference. Would you want Sap over Garnett in a playoff series? Hell-to-the-no... despite Sap being a character guy and I don't really like Garnett that much. Sap is not as legit of a tweener as Garnett cause he's a PF/SF. He doesn't standout against the other elite at PF and that's why I want Favors as the PF on the Jazz as a starter. Sap may be a great Sf for the Jazz but so far he's suspect (great word, thanks) as a starting PF on a team that'll win a championship.
On the Jazz I'd rank Al first right now in terms of making a difference in the playoffs, then Favors, then Sap, then Hayward is moving toward Saps postion.
We can't escape Saps obvious placement as a tweener at his postion. Doesn't mean I don't like him. Just means he isn't a go-to-guy on offense or a guy you'd want to guard the other big Power forwards late in the game when they can post him easier than they could Favors or any other legit PF.
You can define "hero-ball" any way till Sunday but I'll stick to what you bolded and what I said " hero-ball or not, games come down to isolation performances late in the fourth where a team can exploit the opponent. His size disadvantage (at PF) is glaring when a team (and most teams do) have a bigger guy that can shoot over him...and he can't shoot over them. That's how the game is played for good reason." (corrected a typo hehe with fourth)
Did Labron play hero-ball when he posted more often last yr? I don't think so, that's why they won it. Compared to the yr before when they lost to Dallas Bron got smart and used his size advantage. Dirk beat them the yr before when he used his shooting for much of the series as the catalyst. My point-- hero-ball is subjective but size matters and there's no way Sap can guard Dirk in a seven game series and expect the Jazz to win the series (didn't you rank Sap over Dirk? c-mon). Sap is a tweener, a good tweener, but there's a reason he's a tweener (and not in the top 50) because he can't beat the big boys when it comes to cruntch time.

I really hope Sap plays more SF this yr and we let Favors excell in the postion he's BUILT to play. In the long run the Jazz will be a better team for it. JMO

aliveandkickin wrote:

Ok, lets put it this way Magnus. Plain and more simple Millsap is a tweener. He's always going to be between good and great. He has onions. I like cheeseburgers with onions. Onions will never be the meat, nor the cheese for that matter, to satisfy a craving. If it does then you're in for a pickle... and who wants that... cept maybe Shelly- which is debateable.

Without going to a list and seeing if there are more guys that play PF (Pauls current postion)- the guys I mentioned have value over Millsap because of a certain skillset they bring to the table- and most of them are bigger. I didn't mention Ryan Anderson cause all I see he has over Paul is the threeball. Everyone else has something he can't match!!! Even Garnett, going into the playoffs, is more valueable than Sap if he's healthy- that includes Amare, when he's healthy. Even at this stage in his career Garnett can play defense on other PFers and centers. Garnett is a legit tweener PF/Center that can excell against either postion once they're in the playoffs. He's just hurt all the time untill Rondo and Pierce get him there but once they're there he can, and does, make a difference. Would you want Sap over Garnett in a playoff series? Hell-to-the-no... despite Sap being a character guy and I don't really like Garnett that much. Sap is not as legit of a tweener as Garnett cause he's a PF/SF. He doesn't standout against the other elite at PF and that's why I want Favors as the PF on the Jazz as a starter. Sap may be a great Sf for the Jazz but so far he's suspect (great word, thanks) as a starting PF on a team that'll win a championship.
On the Jazz I'd rank Al first right now in terms of making a difference in the playoffs, then Favors, then Sap, then Hayward is moving toward Saps postion.
We can't escape Saps obvious placement as a tweener at his postion. Doesn't mean I don't like him. Just means he isn't a go-to-guy on offense or a guy you'd want to guard the other big Power forwards late in the game when they can post him easier than they could Favors or any other legit PF.
You can define "hero-ball" any way till Sunday but I'll stick to what you bolded and what I said " hero-ball or not, games come down to isolation performances late in the fourth where a team can exploit the opponent. His size disadvantage (at PF) is glaring when a team (and most teams do) have a bigger guy that can shoot over him...and he can't shoot over them. That's how the game is played for good reason." (corrected a typo hehe with fourth)
Did Labron play hero-ball when he posted more often last yr? I don't think so, that's why they won it. Compared to the yr before when they lost to Dallas Bron got smart and used his size advantage. Dirk beat them the yr before when he used his shooting for much of the series as the catalyst. My point-- hero-ball is subjective but size matters and there's no way Sap can guard Dirk in a seven game series and expect the Jazz to win the series (didn't you rank Sap over Dirk? c-mon). Sap is a tweener, a good tweener, but there's a reason he's a tweener (and not in the top 50) because he can't beat the big boys when it comes to cruntch time.

I really hope Sap plays more SF this yr and we let Favors excell in the postion he's BUILT to play. In the long run the Jazz will be a better team for it. JMO

Fair enough, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree on Millsap, we are all going to see what we want to see.

And yes, I ranked Millsap over Dirk, because he was better than Dirk in pretty much every way possible this past season, ESPECIALLY in "clutch" situations.

But frankly, the thing that has me completely mystified is that you continue to bring up Amare. Remember, this about about right now, what these guys play like right now, and I don't care what you call Amare, Power Forward, Center, PF/C "tweener", or who you want to compare him too, Amare SUCKED ASS last year. Furthermore, even in his prime (which is solidly in the past) he wasn't good enough to help his team do anything relevant, I remember arguing with people a couple years ago that he wasn't any better than Boozer, cause he wasn't. So I guess I'm just at a total loss as to what you see in him right now.

TheMagnus wrote:

[I appreciate your honesty, but it does reinforce my point. The reasons for undervaluing Millsap have almost nothing to do with what he actually does, and everything to do with what you THINK he can or can't do.

I'd also argue that the bolded is how losers play the game (hey Melo!). Elite teams don't become elite teams until they can overcome the urge to rely on Hero ball and trust each other enough to run their offence, even when that is hard, and get good shots (See this years finals teams for exhibits A and B). The notion that Hero ball wins games is 100% fallacy. I think you make a good point about matchups, better players and favorable matchups absolutely wins ball games, but your theoretical notion about who carries those advantages and why is highly suspect.

This is what actually happens... or has happened in the past: L a k e r s vs Jazz... aught oh!! crap, Bynum or Gasol are going to kill Sap down low. What can we do? Lets hope Sap plays smart and the size disadvantage is minimal. Spurs vs Jazz......well, even late in his career Duncan will murder Sap so let's move him to sf or have him guard their center.. Dallas vs Jazz... Hmm, we can't have Sap guard Dirk cause he'll shoot 10 fters over him all night. Maybe Big Al or Favors can guard him better (putting a smaller Sap on a bigger center). Portlands Aldridge can shoot over Sap in the post. Blake is more athletic and a better PF even without having a good outside shot. Randolf a yr ago had a playoff run playing PF that Sap can only dream about and will never achieve- beating the Spurs. Love has the threeball and can rebound better than Sap...........should I go on? cause that's just the Western power forwards that are better over the last few yrs. Not to mention Favors is a better power forward because it's a postion he's built for and won't be a liability because of his size...

I'll say it again. Repeat after me "We can't escape Saps obvious placement as a tweener at his postion. Doesn't mean I don't like him. Just means he isn't a go-to-guy on offense or a guy you'd want to guard the other big Power forwards late in the game when they can post him easier than they could Favors or any other legit PF."

Sap isn't a difference maker at power forward. He's pretty good but not a guy that'll be elite at that postion. His biggest asset on the Jazz will be playing small forward- letting Favors excell at PF, and hopefully, Sap can swallow his pride and make a difference at sf. If he can't make a difference at sf then he should be a backup to Favors (especially when playing the above players) or we trade him for another piece to rotate into the mix- especially since Big Al is more valueable and needs to resigned along with Hayward and Favors soon will need to be resigned.

Everyone ripping on sap for being a liability on defense? The guy is our best all around defender. Top 5 in steals for starters. But Boone is ripping on our biggest liability on defense which is al Jefferson, we have lost many more games due to ALS inability to guard the pick and roll ( he is historicly bad at guarding it ) and his inabilty to even try to play defense. I don't care if he puts up 30+ points a game of he doesn't try to play defense or hustle then he is worthless. It dissapoints me that you guys are wanting to resign the slouchy no hustle guy that is a 20 point a game black hole over the guy that gives his heart to the team and leaves it all out on the court. I don't know how anyone can respect all Jefferson for the way he plays basketball. You can respect that he is a great person with a great personality and you can respect the fact that he can score on anyone that's not a big center that doesn't jump at fakes, but you cannot respect his mentality on basketball. I don't want guys on this team that aren't going to try and are just going to throw in the towel because they have shit confidence or heart. What kind of example is he setting for these young guys? Be lazy and just work on getting your isolation shot down and your footwork, don't even try to play defense. I much prefer the example millsap sets for these young guys. You might be underrated by 95% of people but work your freaking butt off and develop your all around game and you can really become something in this league. Then only thing Jefferson is teaching them is to hope god gave them the mental gift of making hook shots. I like the guy, but if the jazz don't trade him and they resign him I will have given up on this team because we will NEVER be legit contenders with him at the center. Just the way I feel and nothing short of him playing completely opposite on defense and hustling the whole time he is on the court will change my mind. And by the way whoever said k love and b griffen dominate millsap are completely wrong because every time we played the wolves or clippers millsap shut down griffen and love nearly every game and outplayed them. Millsap only stuggles with guys that are 6'11 or taller. But he can consistently steal the ball from any big man in the league.

Magnus, Amare was injured last yr. He's a better and more legit power forward when he's healthy. We're not talking about Amare and Boozer. We're talking about why Sap isn't ranked by "supposed" espn experts in the top 50. These "experts" may know something you don't know. It's possible, right? They may be going off the criteria that I've been outlying, or, they and most ppl here, could all be wrong and just say Millsap is overall a better player and plays smart so he should be considered elite.

Sorry, we're all out of crazy here. Maybe someone else will buy it.

Saying Dirk isn't as good as Sap is just nuckin futs bro (and yes I'll always call you bro cuz we're both Jazz fans and I like the stats you provide), but, I have biological bros that I have to call out as well that get crazy at times (since I'm perfect) and this is one of those times. It's not subjective.

Here's my edit from your link going over Millsaps vs Dirks season and playoff stats and you're saying he's more clutch?:

Millsaps season fg% 49%, ft% 79%, 3pt fg%- .22%, trb 8.8,ast 2.3, stl 1.8, blk 0.8, to 1.8, pf 3.5, pts 16.6
Dirks.......................45%, ft% 89%,3pt fg% -.36%, trb 6.8, ast 2.2, stl 0.7, blk 0.5, to 1.9, pf 2.1, pts 21.6

so during the season Sap shot a higher fg% but that is easily canceled out because Dirk made 71 more 3 pointers and Sap only made 7 threes all season. Sap only took 31 threes shooting .22% because he hasn't shown he's clutch there yet.
Sap outrebounds Dirk though right? 8.8 total per game compared to Dirks 6.8 total, but, Saps offensive rebounds are 2.8 to Dirks 0.7-- meaning Sap is a better rebounder cause Dirk is shooting more often (233 more non-threes a yr , plus the 181 more three point attempts a yr)... so Dirks game is evolved for being clutch but he still can rebound defensively with Sap because they both averaged 6.0 def rebounds a yr. Sap is better at steals, blocks are a wash, turnovers are a wash, Sap fouls more often (because he's smaller- giving the opposition more points), and Dirk scores 5 more points a game..... which includes 1.7 more freethrows a game- shooting 10% better at the line for Dirk... the only stat Sap beats Dirk at, not taking into their roles on the court are steals. Kudos to Millsap for that. They both played about the same amount of min per game.

Millsaps playoffs fg%-37%, 3pt%- 0% (he went 0/3).....ft% .500,ast 2, stl 1, blk 10, pf 11, ast 0.5, trb 11, pts 12
Dirks.................fg%-44%, 3pt%- .16% (he went 1/6)..ft% .900, ast7, stl 3, blk 0, pf 9, ast 1.8, trb 6.3, pts 26.8

Also during the playoffs Sap had 34.8 minutes per game and Dirk had 38.5 per game. They both got swept in the playoffs.
Please spin for me Magnus how Sap is ESPECIALLY more clutch than Dirk last year? Include how Dirk isn't as clutch with being the focal point of his team two years ago when they won the championship. Sap rebounds better cuz Dirk shoots more than him. Also I'll concede Sap Blocks shots better being 7 yrs younger but his blks don't make him a game changer.

I hate defending Dirk because he's probably my most disliked player, but you made my point for me. Dirk is elite because he has a skillset that is unique for his position. Sap is one of my favorite players but he's not elite!!

Zoonie wrote:

Everyone ripping on sap for being a liability on defense? The guy is our best all around defender. Top 5 in steals for starters. But Boone is ripping on our biggest liability on defense which is al Jefferson, we have lost many more games due to ALS inability to guard the pick and roll ( he is historicly bad at guarding it ) and his inabilty to even try to play defense. I don't care if he puts up 30+ points a game of he doesn't try to play defense or hustle then he is worthless. It dissapoints me that you guys are wanting to resign the slouchy no hustle guy that is a 20 point a game black hole over the guy that gives his heart to the team and leaves it all out on the court. I don't know how anyone can respect all Jefferson for the way he plays basketball. You can respect that he is a great person with a great personality and you can respect the fact that he can score on anyone that's not a big center that doesn't jump at fakes, but you cannot respect his mentality on basketball. I don't want guys on this team that aren't going to try and are just going to throw in the towel because they have shit confidence or heart. What kind of example is he setting for these young guys? Be lazy and just work on getting your isolation shot down and your footwork, don't even try to play defense. I much prefer the example millsap sets for these young guys. You might be underrated by 95% of people but work your freaking butt off and develop your all around game and you can really become something in this league. Then only thing Jefferson is teaching them is to hope god gave them the mental gift of making hook shots. I like the guy, but if the jazz don't trade him and they resign him I will have given up on this team because we will NEVER be legit contenders with him at the center. Just the way I feel and nothing short of him playing completely opposite on defense and hustling the whole time he is on the court will change my mind. And by the way whoever said k love and b griffen dominate millsap are completely wrong because every time we played the wolves or clippers millsap shut down griffen and love nearly every game and outplayed them. Millsap only stuggles with guys that are 6'11 or taller. But he can consistently steal the ball from any big man in the league.

Good points about Jefferson. Millsap does outhussle and outheart him. Jefferson still is more valueable to the team, but I get some of what you're saying. BTW, I said Blake is more athletic and a better PF than Sap at this point- despite not having an outside shot yet (here come Blakes ft% stats from nay-sayers, be warned). I said Love has the threeball and can rebound better than Millsap..... They have assets Millsap doesn't provide. I do agree Millsap can and does outplay some of these guys at times. He's just (as someone stated) pretty good at everything but not exceptional at one thing... which throws him out of the top fifty players in the league.

aliveandkickin wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I appreciate your honesty, but it does reinforce my point. The reasons for undervaluing Millsap have almost nothing to do with what he actually does, and everything to do with what you THINK he can or can't do.

I'd also argue that the bolded is how losers play the game (hey Melo!). Elite teams don't become elite teams until they can overcome the urge to rely on Hero ball and trust each other enough to run their offence, even when that is hard, and get good shots (See this years finals teams for exhibits A and B). The notion that Hero ball wins games is 100% fallacy. I think you make a good point about matchups, better players and favorable matchups absolutely wins ball games, but your theoretical notion about who carries those advantages and why is highly suspect.

This is what actually happens... or has happened in the past: L a k e r s vs Jazz... aught oh!! crap, Bynum or Gasol are going to kill Sap down low. What can we do? Lets hope Sap plays smart and the size disadvantage is minimal. Spurs vs Jazz......well, even late in his career Duncan will murder Sap so let's move him to sf or have him guard their center.. Dallas vs Jazz... Hmm, we can't have Sap guard Dirk cause he'll shoot 10 fters over him all night. Maybe Big Al or Favors can guard him better (putting a smaller Sap on a bigger center). Portlands Aldridge can shoot over Sap in the post. Blake is more athletic and a better PF even without having a good outside shot. Randolf a yr ago had a playoff run playing PF that Sap can only dream about and will never achieve- beating the Spurs. Love has the threeball and can rebound better than Sap...........should I go on? cause that's just the Western power forwards that are better over the last few yrs. Not to mention Favors is a better power forward because it's a postion he's built for and won't be a liability because of his size...

I'll say it again. Repeat after me "We can't escape Saps obvious placement as a tweener at his postion. Doesn't mean I don't like him. Just means he isn't a go-to-guy on offense or a guy you'd want to guard the other big Power forwards late in the game when they can post him easier than they could Favors or any other legit PF."

Sap isn't a difference maker at power forward. He's pretty good but not a guy that'll be elite at that postion. His biggest asset on the Jazz will be playing small forward- letting Favors excell at PF, and hopefully, Sap can swallow his pride and make a difference at sf. If he can't make a difference at sf then he should be a backup to Favors (especially when playing the above players) or we trade him for another piece to rotate into the mix- especially since Big Al is more valueable and needs to resigned along with Hayward and Favors soon will need to be resigned.

Really? Man zoonie really hit it on the head there. You're really going to talk about Millsaps D, and make the absolutly rediculous comparisons against the 3 matchups in the league where almost EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE NBA IS AT NEARLY THE SAME DISSADVANTAGE (BTW, how many of those teams made the finals last year? And why are we trying to match up with them again?), and then in the next breath talk about how Jefferson is more valuable when he was absolutely MURDERED by the same matchups?

Whatever, like I said, agree to dissagree.

aliveandkickin wrote:

Magnus, Amare was injured last yr. He's a better and more legit power forward when he's healthy. We're not talking about Amare and Boozer. We're talking about why Sap isn't ranked by "supposed" espn experts in the top 50. These "experts" may know something you don't know. It's possible, right? They may be going off the criteria that I've been outlying, or, they and most ppl here, could all be wrong and just say Millsap is overall a better player and plays smart so he should be considered elite.

Sorry, we're all out of crazy here. Maybe someone else will buy it.

Saying Dirk isn't as good as Sap is just nuckin futs bro (and yes I'll always call you bro cuz we're both Jazz fans and I like the stats you provide), but, I have biological bros that I have to call out as well that get crazy at times (since I'm perfect) and this is one of those times. It's not subjective.

Here's my edit from your link going over Millsaps vs Dirks season and playoff stats and you're saying he's more clutch?:

Millsaps season fg% 49%, ft% 79%, 3pt fg%- .22%, trb 8.8,ast 2.3, stl 1.8, blk 0.8, to 1.8, pf 3.5, pts 16.6
Dirks.......................45%, ft% 89%,3pt fg% -.36%, trb 6.8, ast 2.2, stl 0.7, blk 0.5, to 1.9, pf 2.1, pts 21.6

so during the season Sap shot a higher fg% but that is easily canceled out because Dirk made 71 more 3 pointers and Sap only made 7 threes all season. Sap only took 31 threes shooting .22% because he hasn't shown he's clutch there yet.
Sap outrebounds Dirk though right? 8.8 total per game compared to Dirks 6.8 total, but, Saps offensive rebounds are 2.8 to Dirks 0.7-- meaning Sap is a better rebounder cause Dirk is shooting more often (233 more non-threes a yr , plus the 181 more three point attempts a yr)... so Dirks game is evolved for being clutch but he still can rebound defensively with Sap because they both averaged 6.0 def rebounds a yr. Sap is better at steals, blocks are a wash, turnovers are a wash, Sap fouls more often (because he's smaller- giving the opposition more points), and Dirk scores 5 more points a game..... which includes 1.7 more freethrows a game- shooting 10% better at the line for Dirk... the only stat Sap beats Dirk at, not taking into their roles on the court are steals. Kudos to Millsap for that. They both played about the same amount of min per game.

Millsaps playoffs fg%-37%, 3pt%- 0% (he went 0/3).....ft% .500,ast 2, stl 1, blk 10, pf 11, ast 0.5, trb 11, pts 12
Dirks.................fg%-44%, 3pt%- .16% (he went 1/6)..ft% .900, ast7, stl 3, blk 0, pf 9, ast 1.8, trb 6.3, pts 26.8

Also during the playoffs Sap had 34.8 minutes per game and Dirk had 38.5 per game. They both got swept in the playoffs.
Please spin for me Magnus how Sap is ESPECIALLY more clutch than Dirk last year? Include how Dirk isn't as clutch with being the focal point of his team two years ago when they won the championship. Sap rebounds better cuz Dirk shoots more than him. Also I'll concede Sap Blocks shots better being 7 yrs younger but his blks don't make him a game changer.

I hate defending Dirk because he's probably my most disliked player, but you made my point for me. Dirk is elite because he has a skillset that is unique for his position. Sap is one of my favorite players but he's not elite!!

I'm cool with "Bro", this is a solid argument between fellow fans....now back to it!

I didn't say Millsap was better than Dirk, I said Millsap and Dirk performed on basicly the same level last season, I say that from both a numbers and a subjective (watching the games) perspective, and your analysis also confirmed the numbers side of things. I ranked Millsap ahead of him because I felt he actualy outperformed Dirk in a lot of ways (especially defensively), and I'd be willing to bet that Millsap will be as good or better than him again this year. If Dirk is still "elite", then so is Millsap.

You keep trying got talk about the past, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about the now and the future.
And I don't have to spin anything, once again, I'll just give you the numbers and you can see whatever you want in them.

82Games.com keeps "clutch" stats. It defines "clutch" as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points." I'd say that fits with your definition, it's the 4th quater, games close, you need points and you need stops, so who do you go to?

Here's the numbers from the 2011-2012 season (eFG takes into account that 3's are worth more)

Millsap
139 minutes, 63 points, 9 stl, 4 blks, 12 turnovers, 9 Oreb, 33 Dreb, 43.4% eFG, 40% 3pt, 73% FT

Dirk
101 minutes, 62 points, 1 stl, 0 blks, 12 turnovers, 5 Oreb, 23 Dreb, 38.6% eFG, 40% 3pt, 95% FT

Normalize those to per 36 minutes and you get the following...

Millsap/36
16.3 points, 2.3 stl, 1 blks, 3.1 turnovers, 2.3 Oreb, 8.5 Dreb, 43.4% eFG, 40% 3pt, 73% FT


Dirk/36
22.1 points, .3 stl, 0 blks, 4.3 turnovers, 1.8 Oreb, 8.2 Dreb, 38.6% eFG, 40% 3pt, 95% FT


Another stat I thought was interesting was that during "clutch" time, 62% of Dirks shots were "Assisted", meaning someone passed him the ball and he just shot it, while only 52% of Millsaps were. Strange...and even stranger that Millsap still shot a better eFG% with that being the case....

I know who I'd put on my team next year, and sign to a long term contract. But like I said, we are all going to see what we want to see....

MTJazz wrote:

If I have to have two points in the post with time winding down I'm dumping it into Al and hope Sap gets the put-back. We have seen Sap play on an elite level on a game-by-game basis but in the end he is simply a really good player, top 50 in the league, who can start on any team, contender or otherwise, that doesn't have a better PF, at least 20 other teams.

Yea, perfect: that could be the best possible way to put it, and in only a few words describes the entire game/abilities of each player:

Al is camped in the low box, gets the ball. He will take that shot because thats what he does, and rarely passes out. He shoots a good but not great 49%, so it may or may not drop. But he'll get a good shot, so the rebound if there is one will be close.
And then there is Paul, who did all the little things, and used his smarts, body and strength to get into position for the great rebound and put back. Once again, doing all the little things and winning the game for the Jazz even though Al may have had 24 and 10, with Paul getting 17 and 7 but the most crucial rebound and bucket.

I can't stand Dirk. As much as Slobe. But comparing he and Paul when one player is the one and only, bottom line go-to guy, to Paul who is one of many options and is more a guy who gets the hustle points, doesn't make sense. Also, the rebounding for example, when Dirk is expected to take many more and THE shots, to Paul who gets shots in the flow, doesn't make sense. Paul should rebound more.
But man, I hate talking about Dirk.

Zoonie wrote:

Everyone ripping on sap for being a liability on defense? The guy is our best all around defender. Top 5 in steals for starters. But Boone is ripping on our biggest liability on defense which is al Jefferson, we have lost many more games due to ALS inability to guard the pick and roll ( he is historicly bad at guarding it ) and his inabilty to even try to play defense. I don't care if he puts up 30+ points a game of he doesn't try to play defense or hustle then he is worthless. It dissapoints me that you guys are wanting to resign the slouchy no hustle guy that is a 20 point a game black hole over the guy that gives his heart to the team and leaves it all out on the court. I don't know how anyone can respect all Jefferson for the way he plays basketball. You can respect that he is a great person with a great personality and you can respect the fact that he can score on anyone that's not a big center that doesn't jump at fakes, but you cannot respect his mentality on basketball. I don't want guys on this team that aren't going to try and are just going to throw in the towel because they have shit confidence or heart. What kind of example is he setting for these young guys? Be lazy and just work on getting your isolation shot down and your footwork, don't even try to play defense. I much prefer the example millsap sets for these young guys. You might be underrated by 95% of people but work your freaking butt off and develop your all around game and you can really become something in this league. Then only thing Jefferson is teaching them is to hope god gave them the mental gift of making hook shots. I like the guy, but if the jazz don't trade him and they resign him I will have given up on this team because we will NEVER be legit contenders with him at the center. Just the way I feel and nothing short of him playing completely opposite on defense and hustling the whole time he is on the court will change my mind.

Whoa whoa whoa, WHAT??! I can't get down with you guys on that at all! Not respecting Al for the way he plays defense??? What? Thats like getting down on Tyson Chandler because of his non-existent offense. Or Mario Chalmers for his lack of rebounding. There is much more to basketball than just a players offense, or a players defense. Is Al bad at guarding the pick and roll? YES. Of course. Secondly, have any of you ever looked at Al? That dude is not Blake Griffin, or Garnett. That guy was born with big slow feet, legs and body style. He is not built like an athlete. He's built like a big ass dude. But look at him: do you see an athlete?? And I do not think at all thats due to conditioning, effort or anything else. He's built like a slow, plodding almost Mark Eaton type player. He's not built like Tyrus Thomas, for a better example. So with that said, it's not like he's not tapping into his given abilities or body. He just isn't built like that. Thats why he doesn't move well, but DOES rank in the top 5 in blocked shots. EFFORT, is blocked shots. To say it's his mentality on defense, is just not cool at all going his way. To go even further, all of Al's teammates love him. They know he tries his best, and does what he can for this team. Players that aren't that way are treated differently, we've seen it. Guys like Marbury wasn't all that loved, because all he wanted was to get his points. Not Al; they all love him.

But look man, all of what you said is really just opinion, not fact. Look at the games we lost because of Als defense? Well, the same can be said that look at the games we won because of his dominant low post offense. It goes both ways. Saying we lost many more games to Al's inability to guard the pick and roll is not true at all. Was it true against the Spurs in the playoffs? Absolutely. Their great team and great coach exploited it. But they also had the personnel to do it. It was not season long, otherwise we wouldn't even come close to the playoffs.
Worthless??? Man, I just can't believe all this. We saw guys like Ostertag loafing at times, not really getting after it. You cannot tell me, anyone on here, that we caught Al loafing and not doing what he can. Is he slow as shit? Absolutely. Is his lateral quickness much like a water buffalo? yea. But the dude is in shape, we read about how in shape he was last year. But just like I'm not built for playing linebacker, he's not built for anything involving quickness. And I think that is the biggest reason he developed his top 5 Center low post scoring: because he knew his limitations, and needed to develop his other areas. So he did. Personally, I love Al Jefferson.

Mutangclan wrote:

I can't stand Dirk. As much as Slobe. But comparing he and Paul when one player is the one and only, bottom line go-to guy, to Paul who is one of many options and is more a guy who gets the hustle points, doesn't make sense. Also, the rebounding for example, when Dirk is expected to take many more and THE shots, to Paul who gets shots in the flow, doesn't make sense. Paul should rebound more.
But man, I hate talking about Dirk.

Then let go of your preconcieved notions and let the fact that he's simply not the player he used to be wash over you like a warm tropical breeze. The Mavericks struggles last season had as much to do with his decline as they did with his supporting cast. He's well into the downhill side of 30, on the wrong side of 1000 games and 40000 minutes played in the NBA, and that slippery slope isn't going to change. He's still a great player, he's just not an elite player, and he can't do all the things he used to do. If he's the Mavericks best player (and it looks like he definitely will be), then the Mavericks are going to be fighting with the Jazz for playoff position this year, and my money will be on the Jazz winning that battle.

Mutangclan wrote:

Zoonie wrote:

Everyone ripping on sap for being a liability on defense? The guy is our best all around defender. Top 5 in steals for starters. But Boone is ripping on our biggest liability on defense which is al Jefferson, we have lost many more games due to ALS inability to guard the pick and roll ( he is historicly bad at guarding it ) and his inabilty to even try to play defense. I don't care if he puts up 30+ points a game of he doesn't try to play defense or hustle then he is worthless. It dissapoints me that you guys are wanting to resign the slouchy no hustle guy that is a 20 point a game black hole over the guy that gives his heart to the team and leaves it all out on the court. I don't know how anyone can respect all Jefferson for the way he plays basketball. You can respect that he is a great person with a great personality and you can respect the fact that he can score on anyone that's not a big center that doesn't jump at fakes, but you cannot respect his mentality on basketball. I don't want guys on this team that aren't going to try and are just going to throw in the towel because they have shit confidence or heart. What kind of example is he setting for these young guys? Be lazy and just work on getting your isolation shot down and your footwork, don't even try to play defense. I much prefer the example millsap sets for these young guys. You might be underrated by 95% of people but work your freaking butt off and develop your all around game and you can really become something in this league. Then only thing Jefferson is teaching them is to hope god gave them the mental gift of making hook shots. I like the guy, but if the jazz don't trade him and they resign him I will have given up on this team because we will NEVER be legit contenders with him at the center. Just the way I feel and nothing short of him playing completely opposite on defense and hustling the whole time he is on the court will change my mind.

Whoa whoa whoa, WHAT??! I can't get down with you guys on that at all! Not respecting Al for the way he plays defense??? What? Thats like getting down on Tyson Chandler because of his non-existent offense. Or Mario Chalmers for his lack of rebounding. There is much more to basketball than just a players offense, or a players defense. Is Al bad at guarding the pick and roll? YES. Of course. Secondly, have any of you ever looked at Al? That dude is not Blake Griffin, or Garnett. That guy was born with big slow feet, legs and body style. He is not built like an athlete. He's built like a big ass dude. But look at him: do you see an athlete?? And I do not think at all thats due to conditioning, effort or anything else. He's built like a slow, plodding almost Mark Eaton type player. He's not built like Tyrus Thomas, for a better example. So with that said, it's not like he's not tapping into his given abilities or body. He just isn't built like that. Thats why he doesn't move well, but DOES rank in the top 5 in blocked shots. EFFORT, is blocked shots. To say it's his mentality on defense, is just not cool at all going his way. To go even further, all of Al's teammates love him. They know he tries his best, and does what he can for this team. Players that aren't that way are treated differently, we've seen it. Guys like Marbury wasn't all that loved, because all he wanted was to get his points. Not Al; they all love him.

But look man, all of what you said is really just opinion, not fact. Look at the games we lost because of Als defense? Well, the same can be said that look at the games we won because of his dominant low post offense. It goes both ways. Saying we lost many more games to Al's inability to guard the pick and roll is not true at all. Was it true against the Spurs in the playoffs? Absolutely. Their great team and great coach exploited it. But they also had the personnel to do it. It was not season long, otherwise we wouldn't even come close to the playoffs.
Worthless??? Man, I just can't believe all this. We saw guys like Ostertag loafing at times, not really getting after it. You cannot tell me, anyone on here, that we caught Al loafing and not doing what he can. Is he slow as shit? Absolutely. Is his lateral quickness much like a water buffalo? yea. But the dude is in shape, we read about how in shape he was last year. But just like I'm not built for playing linebacker, he's not built for anything involving quickness. And I think that is the biggest reason he developed his top 5 Center low post scoring: because he knew his limitations, and needed to develop his other areas. So he did. Personally, I love Al Jefferson.

Solid. Solid post. That's the thing that really gets me about both Millsap and Jefferson. They really are both great players, better than they get credit for, but people think that a single flaw (Millsap is short, Jefferson is slow) automatically puts them a level below players that they outperform night in and night out.

Sorry, not buying it.

TheMagnus wrote:

Then let go of your preconceived notions and let the fact that he's simply not the player he used to be wash over you like a warm tropical breeze. The Mavericks struggles last season had as much to do with his decline as they did with his supporting cast. He's well into the downhill side of 30, on the wrong side of 1000 games and 40000 minutes played in the NBA, and that slippery slope isn't going to change. He's still a great player, he's just not an elite player, and he can't do all the things he used to do. If he's the Mavericks best player (and it looks like he definitely will be), then the Mavericks are going to be fighting with the Jazz for playoff position this year, and my money would be on the Jazz winning that battle.

Hahaaa, ahhhhhh that is nice washing over me....
Agreed, he's not the player he once was. And he struggled mightily last year....and maybe it had as much to do with no Chandler there....kind of like how Al could use a Chandler...but I digress.
I was just saying comparing Paul and Dirk is like comparing Al and Tyson Chandler. Two different job descriptions.
And for your last, I already agree with you on that one: The Jazz will make the playoffs ahead of the Mavs, who may not make it at all.

Mutangclan wrote:

I was just saying comparing Paul and Dirk is like comparing Al and Tyson Chandler. Two different job descriptions.

Actually that was another thing that changed last year, Dirk wasn't "the go-to guy" for the Mavs last year, at least not like he has been in the past, it was actually Terry doing most of the heavy lifting in crunch time, and from the numbers you can see why. That is why I pointed out that I was surprised that Dirks "Assisted" % was so high, all prior seasons he absolutely was that guy you say he was, but not last season.

I'm not getting on Jefferson for being slow, I know he is slow. But to say the guy is in great shape is flat out wrong. The guy is constantly tired after a five minute or so span, he is constantly walking back on defense an offense for that matter, the guys hustle is non-existent, he gives up on plays when he "thinks" he is beat. I like Jefferson a lot I have since the t wolves traded for him (I'm a HUGE Vikings fan so I like all Minnesota teams) and the guy is really talented. But I really really really hate the fact that he doesn't put any effort into the game unless he has the ball. I'm just going off what I have seen every single game he has played since he has been here. And yes we have often relied on him to score for us when no one else can but other teams have relied on him to give up open layups for them to score. I like the guy and what he can do but I have never liked or wanted to play basketball with someone that only tries to score, it's very annoying to play with someone like that, andthe fact that he makes 15+ million dollars a year and it's his job to try and play his best and hardest every game all game long, it really bugs me that he doesn't. And noone can say the guy has a winners mentality because it is obvious that he doesn't. I just don't think he is a good role model for this young talent packed team. I mean it's just my opinion and I have absolutly no problem with you guys having a different one it's justthe way I feel and I can't change how my emotions react when he walks up and down the court and is consistently the last man down or when he gives up on a play. There are times he gets beat just because he is slow and I'm fine with that but there are also a lot of times that he gets beat because he could get there but he gives up instead. And those types of things are what separates good talented players from great talented players

And Iwasn't talking about how many games we have won becase of ALS offense. I was just statin that we have lost more games due o ALS lack of effort or inability to guard the pick and roll than we have by millsap getting outmatched by a bigger player ( which also happens to Jefferson, just watch a game against the kings cousins gets in his head and pushes him around like a ragdoll) and IMO we have won just as many or more games because of millsaps heroics late infourth quarter than ALS. We have also lost games due to the fact that we just relied on al to score and went into him 7 or so times In a row in the fourth and he would get double teamed and not pass out and either get a turnover or put up a bad shot and end up scoring 1 or 2 times out of those 7 tries. And I would like his offense a lot more if he was good at executing plays and such but he's not all too good at it. He is just a great 1 on 1 post player that can hit the 12-15 footer at 33%. And actually millsap has the best fg% around the basket and a some of that is due to his hustle rebounds and whatnot but he is better at finishing around the basket than Jefferson is especially with contact. Jefferson is just a lot better with his footwork and executing the post moves so he gets more open looks at the basket. Again just my opinion on the finishing part but millsap does have a better fg% in the paint

And plus Tyson Chandler might not be a talented guy on offense but he tries and hustles a lot more on offense than Jefferson does on defense. Plus the fact that Tyson Chandler runs around and sets a lot of good picks for guys is valuable to an offense. There is more to offense than scoring points. But at least he's out there giving the effort and playing hard that's the difference between ALS non-existent D and chandlers non-existent offense.

Zoonie wrote:

I'm not getting on Jefferson for being slow, I know he is slow. But to say the guy is in great shape is flat out wrong. The guy is constantly tired after a five minute or so span, he is constantly walking back on defense an offense for that matter, the guys hustle is non-existent, he gives up on plays when he "thinks" he is beat. I like Jefferson a lot I have since the t wolves traded for him (I'm a HUGE Vikings fan so I like all Minnesota teams) and the guy is really talented. But I really really really hate the fact that he doesn't put any effort into the game unless he has the ball. I'm just going off what I have seen every single game he has played since he has been here. And yes we have often relied on him to score for us when no one else can but other teams have relied on him to give up open layups for them to score. I like the guy and what he can do but I have never liked or wanted to play basketball with someone that only tries to score, it's very annoying to play with someone like that, andthe fact that he makes 15+ million dollars a year and it's his job to try and play his best and hardest every game all game long, it really bugs me that he doesn't. And noone can say the guy has a winners mentality because it is obvious that he doesn't. I just don't think he is a good role model for this young talent packed team. I mean it's just my opinion and I have absolutly no problem with you guys having a different one it's justthe way I feel and I can't change how my emotions react when he walks up and down the court and is consistently the last man down or when he gives up on a play. There are times he gets beat just because he is slow and I'm fine with that but there are also a lot of times that he gets beat because he could get there but he gives up instead. And those types of things are what separates good talented players from great talented players

I hear what you are saying, I think there were definitely times that Jefferson was guilty of what you say, and everybody here knows I'm as big a critic of Jeffersons D as anybody, but I think that his laid back attitude and his style of play, along with the fact that he truly is slow as cold molassess, makes it look worse than it actually is. Big Al actually lead the team in minutes last year, and I think it is a direct result of his style of play that he is able to play so many minutes and still play his best ball in the 4th quarter when it matters most.

Also, as far as "winners mentality" is concerned, I think he is actually just learning that. I think most players have to learn how to win, and when they don't win for a number of years they forget and instead learn how to look out for themselves, I call it "the stink of losing", and Jefferson definitely had it all over him when the Jazz picked him up from Minny. I honestly think he is learning about what it takes to be a winner, and slowly shaking that stink off him. I can see it in his attitude, I see it in the way he's playing with the team, and I really think he'll continue to grow in that area with the quality players and veteran leaders he has around him now.

Magnus, we'll just have to disagree about Millsap and Dirk. GREAT spin how efg% translates to Sap being more clutch. I know you have to be aware that numbers are subject to the conditions around a player. Sap got most of his threes against Miami, he gets a lot of putbacks from missed shots- increasing his efg%. Totally bizarre a man of your intelligence can't see Dirk is more efficient at scoring (his fortie which makes him elite). MU hit it on the head about Chandler being gone contributes to DAllas being less than what they were.Dirks size and shooting will make him more valueable than Sap for the next few yrs. I dare you to put up a poll and see whom ppl here would rather have as their PF. I really dislike Dirk but it's so obvious by his size and shooting that he's one, if not the best PF's around. Don't be too much of a Homer man. Watch, Dirk will be ranked by ESPN somewhere around top 10. He's one year removed from the finals, with missing pieces, and somehow you think Sap is his eqaul? Btw, I really like this thread. Not being sarcastic. I'm baffled, but not mystified by your homerism. Kudos to you for that.

aliveandkickin wrote:

Magnus, we'll just have to disagree about Millsap and Dirk. GREAT spin how efg% translates to Sap being more clutch. I know you have to be aware that numbers are subject to the conditions around a player. Sap got most of his threes against Miami, he gets a lot of putbacks from missed shots- increasing his efg%. Totally bizarre a man of your intelligence can't see Dirk is more efficient at scoring (his fortie which makes him elite). MU hit it on the head about Chandler being gone contributes to DAllas being less than what they were.Dirks size and shooting will make him more valueable than Sap for the next few yrs. I dare you to put up a poll and see whom ppl here would rather have as their PF. I really dislike Dirk but it's so obvious by his size and shooting that he's one, if not the best PF's around. Don't be too much of a Homer man. Watch, Dirk will be ranked by ESPN somewhere around top 10. He's one year removed from the finals, with missing pieces, and somehow you think Sap is his eqaul? Btw, I really like this thread. Not being sarcastic. I'm baffled, but not mystified by your homerism. Kudos to you for that.

Spin? What's totally bazaar is that an intelligent guy like yourself either didn't read the whole post or didn't understand what the numbers I gave represent. (Hint: they had nothing to do with eFG%, that is just FG% that is adjusted UPWARDs for made 3's which actually helps Dirk, and I used that instead of FG% because you mentioned it in your post...also, the Miami game when Sap hit all those 3's wasn't last year it was two years ago.)

I didn't spin anything, the numbers are what they are, and my guess is that it's so obvious that Sap was better the only explanation you can come up with to protect your belief that Dirk is better was that I either selectively chose them or did something to them. That's called cognitive dissonance, and it's ok, it happens to everybody.

I'm not going to follow the crowd on this one, and I know I'm in the minority, so no need for a poll. I am also enjoying this discussion though, always nice to have a good civil argument with someone who can defend their opinions intelligently.

Nice watching a civil war for a change, two well-matched combatants, honor on the battlefield.

I'm tilting aliveandkicking at that point, no disrespect to Sap. Dirk is The Man, Sap is team glue. One can argue about who is better but there is no questioned Dirk is still the featured and best player on his team, fading super-star status, which is in the hierarchy a little ahead of a super solid career Sap. Its the body of work thing - Dirk has it and Sap won't until he plays on a contender putting up the numbers he does.

Just for giggles, remember when there were people on TT questioning Sap's last contract? Portland forced KOC to overpay? He has never been overpaid on the Jazz, he has been the glue and I hope he will for several more years.

PS. Whassup with that extension? Seems like Paul hasn't committed yet. As a fan, you have to be a little concerned. If Paul is playing for next year's contract that is a good thing, he will rip it up but if they don't come to terms with the offer he officially is trade bait, I don't see him on the team past February. The Jazz are smart enough to fill the gap with the existing corps and salary room.

Opps, my bad, the 7 threes Millsap managed to make this yr weren't part of playing against Miami last yr when he had ONE great game that's memorable to most Jazz fans. I must of misread the jist of the meaning of advanced numbers TRYING to rebute a universal (or close to) fact that Dirk is meat and potatoes and Millsap has onions but can't satisfy a craving for a championship because he (a) hasn't won one and (b) is considered by most to be a slightly above average PF than others in the league except you. I'll raise your cognitive dissonance (see exhibits a and b) and add myopic misanthrope to the mix cause you clearly don't trust mankind and others opinions despite evidence contrary to your own.
Did you notice this yrs playoff disparity in points averaged? 26 to 12. HOW is that so when Millsap is more clutch?
Riddle me this: why does espn rank Dirk so much better than Paul? Are they an independent entity or part of the nba colaboration that promotes one player above another? (hint) go look up myopic misanthrope before your answer.

All small punches aside, lets pretend you don't follow the beat of your own drummer on this one. Dirk is one year removed from a championship. I'll be willing to bet $50 to $10 if there was a poll asking if Millsap was exchanged for Dirk last yr, would Dallas have beat that Miami team. To me the obvious answer is no. Millsap doesn't have the skills (including size) to be a go-to-guy to win a championship. He'll never be the focal point of an offense. He's a complimentary player that can go off at times. NOT Elite
Numbers are subjective. Opinions are subjective. Overwhelming opinions are less subjective and being willing to lose a few bucks puts your money where your mouth is, right? (let me guess, you don't bet)

aliveandkickin wrote:

Opps, my bad, the 7 threes Millsap managed to make this yr weren't part of playing against Miami last yr when he had ONE great game that's memorable to most Jazz fans. I must of misread the jist of the meaning of advanced numbers TRYING to rebute a universal (or close to) fact that Dirk is meat and potatoes and Millsap has onions but can't satisfy a craving for a championship because he (a) hasn't won one and (b) is considered by most to be a slightly above average PF than others in the league except you. I'll raise your cognitive dissonance (see exhibits a and b) and add myopic misanthrope to the mix cause you clearly don't trust mankind and others opinions despite evidence contrary to your own.
Did you notice this yrs playoff disparity in points averaged? 26 to 12. HOW is that so when Millsap is more clutch?
Riddle me this: why does espn rank Dirk so much better than Paul? Are they an independent entity or part of the nba colaboration that promotes one player above another? (hint) go look up myopic misanthrope before your answer.

All small punches aside, lets pretend you don't follow the beat of your own drummer on this one. Dirk is one year removed from a championship. I'll be willing to bet $50 to $10 if there was a poll asking if Millsap was exchanged for Dirk last yr, would Dallas have beat that Miami team. To me the obvious answer is no. Millsap doesn't have the skills (including size) to be a go-to-guy to win a championship. He'll never be the focal point of an offense. He's a complimentary player that can go off at times. NOT Elite
Numbers are subjective. Opinions are subjective. Overwhelming opinions are less subjective and being willing to lose a few bucks puts your money where your mouth is, right? (let me guess, you don't bet)

I wouldn't even need 5 to 1, I'd bet you even odds that Millsap is as good or better than Dirk this year, measured statistically, just like he was last year.

I'm not arguing that Dirk didn't USED to be a better player, career wise Milsap is not and never will be on the same level as Dirk. And your hypothetical is just nonsense because 2010-2011 Dirk was twice the player 2011-2012 Dirk was.

I'm talking about last season, and I'm talking about this season, and your arguments about was and were just aren't holding up anymore.