Training Camp News and Discussion

- Jazz team still needs to grow together; there are some serious issues out there... it won't be rare at all if our season starts kind of ugly...

- If you consider just the portion of preseason games played with some real game grit, I'm pretty sure the Jazz have a negative +/- stat

- That quarter with Bryant having whatever he wanted whenever he wanted playing a solo act against our main lineups, the third quarter with the Clippers manhandling our main guys, and long strecthes against Warriors are a matter of concern (the common factor: our main lineups were on the floor...)

outerspacefan wrote:

- Jazz team still needs to grow together; there are some serious issues out there... it won't be rare at all if our season starts kind of ugly...

- If you consider just the portion of preseason games played with some real game grit, I'm pretty sure the Jazz have a negative +/- stat

- That quarter with Bryant having whatever he wanted whenever he wanted playing a solo act against our main lineups, the third quarter with the Clippers manhandling our main guys, and long strecthes against Warriors are a matter of concern (the common factor: our main lineups were on the floor...)

So what if Bryant got whatever he wanted, so did the Jazz. While he was scoring 23 of the Lakers 24 points in that quarter the Jazz put 36 on him.

Disagree on the "real game grit" thing too. One of the great criticisms of NBA basketball is that all too often in the regular season "real game grit" is shockingly hard to find. The Starters +/- was great against OKC and LA, slightly negative against GS, and actually not as bad as you might think against the Clippers since they pretty much dominated in the first half

I agree on the serious issues part though, this team has a lot of things it needs to work out to really get it's feet under it. #1 thing is that it is painfully obvious that when Mo is out we take a serious step back at PG. Foye isn't good, Burks is iffy, and Tinsley is ok offensively but he gets murdered on the defensive end....

Speaking of that...people talking about Paul leaving the Clippers this offseason...the Jazz have Max money to offer him...I mean, it will never in a million years happen, but still...can you imagine?

The Jazz cut Gilder and Butch today.

Not much of a surprise, Quinn and Jackson still with the team. Two more cuts have to be made by October 31st to bring the roster down to 15.

[quote="Speaking of that...people talking about Paul leaving the Clippers this offseason...the Jazz have Max money to offer him...I mean, it will never in a million years happen, but still...can you imagine?[/quote]
Oh yes i've givin it thought! Mo would be back to backup. Paul was to watch the jazz kick butt this year he would have to really give it some thought one would think?

Well this is bullshit. The Jazz have on their website that the game is on NBATV yet it is blacked out in Utah. Way to go Jazz.

Not that is really matters I guess. The height of training camp and we get 4 posts on here in one day!

Romoholic wrote:

Well this is bullshit. The Jazz have on their website that the game is on NBATV yet it is blacked out in Utah. Way to go Jazz.

Not that is really matters I guess. The height of training camp and we get 4 posts on here in one day!

I know right? Everything suddenly just went dead. I think it's a tough time of year for a lot of folks though, very busy.

The real news right now is that it looks like the starting unit is going to be Mo, Gordy, Marvin, Paul, and Al.

It's funny, because I thought that would be the case, but so far their performance has been really underwhelming on the defensive end, and I'm starting to wonder if Favors wouldn't be a better option.

The other thing I'm just not hearing people talk about is what a non-factor Al Jefferson has been so far.

Here's his numbers for the preseason...

9 pts, 6 reb, 1.5 blk, 1.5 ast, 1 stl, 1 TO on 41% shooting in 23 minutes a game. Those are actually solid rebounding and defense numbers, and he's passing the ball as well as he ever has, but his shooting numbers are absolutely abysmal. The problem is that unlike other guys that are shooting 40% who score additional points with 3's (Mo) or FT's (Hayward), Al only scores 2 points at a time, and only if he makes his shots. He has only attempted 8 FT's all preseason. On top of that the Jazz first unit continues to struggle mightily with the pick and roll, which is undoubtedly a whole team issue, but good PG's look for Al and run it right at him that's what Parker did last year, Chris Paul did it here in the pre-season, and you can pretty much guarantee that will be the case during the season.

I think having Favors on the court with Al probably helps the pick and roll problem, but offensively I wonder if the Jazz new up-tempo style is going to be tough for big Al. It almost feels to me like the start of the 2010-2011 season when he was first traded to the Jazz. He wasn't used to the Jazz system, he wasn't used to playing with a PG like D-will, and his game took a huge drop that was only fixed when the Jazz traded D-will and changed the offense to let him do what he was used to doing.

Well if Corbin is true when he says the best player will start then I think the UnderKanter should start. He has flat out outplayed all the other big men. I'm really lovin this guy, and I can't call him a kid because I'm only 19. Also I'm really liking what I'm seeing out of burks, he has a much better stroke from the 3 than last year. But back to kanter I loved to see him passing out of the post when he would get double teamed last night against the clippers. Also the first unit seems to mostly rely on skill with good hustle, but the second unit just outruns and out hustles everyone. Demarre is a guy you can't help but like and respect his game, foye is hustling and making good plays but his shot is not falling, but I can live with that because he is playing good D and making the right plays a lot of the time, we all know what burks does, favors seems like the same old favors, kanter has had a complete makeover, and is already the most improved player of the year (I'm callin it out) what he has done over one offseason is remarkable. Not only did he get in amazing shape, he also worked on his game and got better in almost every aspect. He has a lot more confidence, he is beastin down low even more because he slimmed down, has a lot more mobility and is even stronger than last year. He isn't gathering nearly as much, keeping the ball high and going back up much quicker. He is running the floor in a way big Al can only dream about. He is much more confident in taking mid range shots which we all know he can hit consistenly. And to top all of that off he is a very very very solid free throw shooter for a 7 footer who is as strong as he is. I'm really happy we drafted this kid, and if he keeps working as hard as he has for his whole carreer, it won't he long until he is competing with Dwight Howard as to who is the best C in the league

Solid point's T-Wick, but I'm not sure Kanter is fully ready for prime time, he still turns the ball over too much, and struggles with finer points of offensive and defensive rotations. Certainly he has earned increased playing time, and it will be interesting going forward to see how (or if?) Corbin makes that happen.

Who does he take minutes from? Does he play Millsap more at the 3?

I wonder if he would be willing to take minutes from Jefferson so that Kanter could play more? Because of the 4 bigs it seems like Jefferson is both the guy that people feel is most assured to get his minutes, and at the same time struggling the most here in the pre-season with the Jazz new offensive and defensive schemes.

Here's an observation from Amar over at SLCDunk...

AllThatAmar wrote:

Al Jefferson had 10 and 5, off of 5/12 shooting. This pace does not suit him well, and the other guys need to help him out more by getting him the ball in scoring position. It happened a few times, and it looked great. We need more.
http://www.slcdunk.com/jazz-game-streams/2012/10/20/3532744/nba-preseason-final-score-los-angeles-clippers-91-utah-jazz-99

I don't know about starting Kanter just yet. He looks much improved this season so far though. I have to admit I'm a little concerned about the offensive play from Favors so far. Al has looked like garbage, but he is too good of a player to drop off like that. He will pick it up.

I'm pleasantly surprised with Marvin Williams, That might have been a huge steal for us if he can play at this level all season.

Romoholic wrote:

I don't know about starting Kanter just yet. He looks much improved this season so far though. I have to admit I'm a little concerned about the offensive play from Favors so far. Al has looked like garbage, but he is too good of a player to drop off like that. He will pick it up.

I'm pleasantly surprised with Marvin Williams, That might have been a huge steal for us if he can play at this level all season.

I think we are seeing the Marv we are gonna see all season. He is gonna kill it some nights and be solid most. Loving the one-two punch of Marv/DC at the 3, very well manned with that rotation. Also, the Hayward/Burks one two is also very exciting, those guys are going to have a breakout season. Big Al will come around, Favors will show up, (is he intimidated by how good everyone else who is competing for his spot got during the offseason???), and then look out, the Jazz will be potent enough to beat any team any night. (Then have horrible multiple game lapses where they can't buy a bucket or defend the P&R)! Not going to challenge OKC but definitely top half of the top 10 out west so far.

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

I don't know about starting Kanter just yet. He looks much improved this season so far though. I have to admit I'm a little concerned about the offensive play from Favors so far. Al has looked like garbage, but he is too good of a player to drop off like that. He will pick it up.

I'm pleasantly surprised with Marvin Williams, That might have been a huge steal for us if he can play at this level all season.

I think we are seeing the Marv we are gonna see all season. He is gonna kill it some nights and be solid most. Loving the one-two punch of Marv/DC at the 3, very well manned with that rotation. Also, the Hayward/Burks one two is also very exciting, those guys are going to have a breakout season. Big Al will come around, Favors will show up, (is he intimidated by how good everyone else who is competing for his spot got during the offseason???), and then look out, the Jazz will be potent enough to beat any team any night. (Then have horrible multiple game lapses where they can't buy a bucket or defend the P&R)! Not going to challenge OKC but definitely top half of the top 10 out west so far.

I think the problem is the same with both Al and Favors, in that the Jazz just aren't getting them the ball in position to score.

In Al case the Jazz are running a lot more in the full court and moving a lot more in the half court, neither of those things are conducive to Al's back to the basket iso game. When Al gets the ball on the break it's trailing the play at the top of the key, Boozer used to love that 15-18 footer and shot it well, Al not so much. In the half court they are asking him to move side to side more and I don't think he really knows how to use that movement to his advantage, on top of that I don't the team is used to the pace either so their tenancy is to continue sort of frantic movement after the break is over, so it just ends up throwing off his rhythm. The Jazz could and should to a better job once they get into the half court of slowing down and running the sets with more patience, thus letting Al get in better position to do his thing. Corbin has said from the beginning that one of the main purposes of running the ball up the court make or miss is to allow more time to run the offense the way it was supposed to be run and get a good shot, clearly they are still learning that part of it.

For Favors it's the opposite fix to the same problem of not playing to his strengths, they need to stop giving him the ball when he's standing still. If Favors gets the ball when he's not moving towards the basket he's terrible. It's as simple as that. His jumpshot is bad, his post moves are so-so, and he's not a great passer, but he's a great finisher and an incredible athlete. Instead of giving him the ball in the low or high post and letting him do something they need to use the pick and roll and off ball screens to free him up around the basket, and they need to look specifically to set up those opportunities for him. Again, I think the problem is really the same as I said above, I don't the the team has adjusted to the frenetic pace and they are having trouble really executing in the half court. It's come in fits and starts but not on any kind of consistent basis.

Ultimately I think they will figure it out, and when they do they will be one of the best offensive teams in the NBA, but it will take some time.

Great article on Jefferson and his role in the Jazz defensive success form the Deseret News today...

Some excerpts...

Jody Genessy wrote:

SALT LAKE CITY — Heading into the 2012-13 season, Al Jefferson holds a belief about the Utah Jazz's success possibilities in his heart and mind.

The idea has weighed on him since the Utah Jazz were swept out of the first round by the San Antonio Spurs last spring. It also shaped his offseason workouts.

Simply put, Big Al believes the Jazz's failures or fortunes on defense revolve around him.

Asked if the Jazz have the makeup to become a tough defensive team this season, Jefferson responded in the affirmative, saying, "We most definitely have what it takes."

Fair or not, when it comes to stopping or slowing opponents, the 6-foot-10 big man considers himself the center of attention.

"But you know," he said, "it really starts with me."

...

Big Al knows he's one of the guys involved in so many of those defensive struggles. He realizes his previous setbacks. He's also intent on improving, which led to him camping out (not literally) in Santa Barbara, Calif., this summer so he could focus on speeding up his footwork at the P3 performance lab.

"It's coming along," Jefferson said.

The CP3-led Clipper offense gave Jefferson what he called "a big test" in the Jazz's 99-91 win Saturday.

"I wasn't as good as I wanted to be," he said. "We get a defensive grade every game. I made a lot of mistakes on the pick-and-roll. I let them split me a couple of times. Thank (heaven) for preseason. I know what I need to continue to work on."

Jefferson noted the challenges of playing top-notch point guards, like Paul, saying it's a "pick and choose your poison" scenario.

"If I go out too far, he'll split," he said. "And if I stay in, he'll go around me."

Having worked on his body and agility, Jefferson said this battle is more mental than physical.

"It takes a lot of energy, but that's what you get in shape for," he said. "You've just got to do it. No excuses."

...

Corbin said it's evident that Jefferson has a renewed sense of responsibility on the defensive end. It was there in the offseason and carried into camp.

"To his credit, he hasn't focused as much on trying to score, because he really wants to try to do a better job on the defensive end," Corbin said. "He knows he's going to be in a lot of pick-and-roll with the point guard."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865564964/Utah-Jazz-basketball-Big-Al-Jefferson-knows-hes-key-to-teams-defense-failures-or-fortunes.html?pg=1

Maybe I am making a bit to much of Al's offensive struggles, and this article made me feel good that he is at least saying the right things. But I still wonder if he can really change his stripes defensively, and if/when the Jazz can really be a consistently solid defensive team. I think they definitely have the players to do it. So I guess the Jazz D this season may be the greatest measure of what kind of coach Corbin is... If he can turn them into a coheasive unit thern there is no reason why this team can't be in the top half of the NBA defensively.

TheMagnus wrote:

Quote :

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865564964/Utah-Jazz-basketball-Big-Al-Jefferson-knows-hes-key-to-teams-defense-failures-or-fortunes.html?pg=1

Maybe I am making a bit to much of Al's offensive struggles, and this article made me feel good that he is at least saying the right things. But I still wonder if he can really change his stripes defensively, and if/when the Jazz can really be a consistently solid defensive team. I think they definitely have the players to do it. So I guess the Jazz D this season may be the greatest measure of what kind of coach Corbin is... If he can turn them into a coheasive unit thern there is no reason why this team can't be in the top half of the NBA defensively.

Well damn, that article warmed my heart! Damn right it starts with you, Big Al, and Favors and Kanter. The Jazz have shitloads of ways to score on an opponent, it doesn't have to go through the paint every damn play, and in fact its more strategic not to given all the guns on the team who need chances to go off. Big Al is damn serious about improving his worst game skill and that says a lot about him and the coaching, which he was hugely complimentary of. With Al, Sap, Favors, DC, GH Evans and Burks focused on defense, and then just flat hustle from everyone else, there is no reason the Jazz couldn't end the regular season as one of the top defensive teams. While 'defense wins games', the next level of success for the Jazz will be when they balance their scoring throughout, and in proportion to minutes, the top 8 line. That way the "go to scoring guy", (umm, Al), can have one or several really off nights in a row, along with another couple starters, and the Jazz can still fill the hoop. Let the (real) season begin!

T-Wick wrote:

. He is much more confident in taking mid range shots which we all know he can hit consistenly. And to top all of that off he is a very very very solid free throw shooter for a 7 footer who is as strong as he is. I'm really happy we drafted this kid, and if he keeps working as hard as he has for his whole carreer, it won't he long until he is competing with Dwight Howard as to who is the best C in the league

Is this Mutang's little brother posting here? lol, seriously your optimism is crazy! Although I am very impressed with how Kanter improved his explosiveness and speed and figured out how to keep ball up after rebounds he is far, far, far from being able to hit mid range jumpers consistently - heck he did not even hit rim on one of his shots vs Clippers, not an airball but hitting backboard and missing rim from 15ft is hardly an indication and hope that he can hit mid range jumpers on regular basis. Second, he is not solid free throw shooter, 66% is mediocre at best. Not sure where you getting that he is 7ft either. He is 6'975 without shoes and with shoes he is listed at 6'11, even if he looks smaller when standing near big AL who is listed at 6'10. Not really most important but please, he is not 7 footer.
Preseason can be very deceiving, big numbers vs scrubs who won't play major role in NBA should be taken with caution. Just see how he struggled vs Thabeet and it gives you better idea - at this point he is not ready to start and play big minutes for the Jazz.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

T-Wick wrote:

. He is much more confident in taking mid range shots which we all know he can hit consistenly. And to top all of that off he is a very very very solid free throw shooter for a 7 footer who is as strong as he is. I'm really happy we drafted this kid, and if he keeps working as hard as he has for his whole carreer, it won't he long until he is competing with Dwight Howard as to who is the best C in the league

Is this Mutang's little brother posting here? lol, seriously your optimism is crazy! Although I am very impressed with how Kanter improved his explosiveness and speed and figured out how to keep ball up after rebounds he is far, far, far from being able to hit mid range jumpers consistently - heck he did not even hit rim on one of his shots vs Clippers, not an airball but hitting backboard and missing rim from 15ft is hardly an indication and hope that he can hit mid range jumpers on regular basis. Second, he is not solid free throw shooter, 66% is mediocre at best. Not sure where you getting that he is 7ft either. He is 6'975 without shoes and with shoes he is listed at 6'11, even if he looks smaller when standing near big AL who is listed at 6'10. Not really most important but please, he is not 7 footer.
Preseason can be very deceiving, big numbers vs scrubs who won't play major role in NBA should be taken with caution. Just see how he struggled vs Thabeet and it gives you better idea - at this point he is not ready to start and play big minutes for the Jazz.

Struggled against Thabeet? Big turkey hung 12 and 12 on Thabeet in 18 minutes. If that's struggling then god help the NBA when he doesn't struggle.

I'm assuming you meant Jordan/Hollins for the Clippers and not Thabeet. Even there though, he clearly got the better of Hollins, and even in what was by far his worst game of the pre-season, he still produced 4 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks, and ZERO turnovers in 18 minutes of play.

Still, I agree with your premise Kanter isn't quite ready to be an anchoring starter on this team.

You shouldn't discount the value of dominating inferior opponents when it comes to measuring skill level though, in fact that margin of domination is one of the most reliable indicators that a player (or team) is truly better than their peers, and Kanters dominance has certainly been more than enough to warrant some excited optimism, both in the logic of the statistical mind and the insanity of the FANatic.

TheMagnus wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

T-Wick wrote:

. He is much more confident in taking mid range shots which we all know he can hit consistenly. And to top all of that off he is a very very very solid free throw shooter for a 7 footer who is as strong as he is. I'm really happy we drafted this kid, and if he keeps working as hard as he has for his whole carreer, it won't he long until he is competing with Dwight Howard as to who is the best C in the league

Is this Mutang's little brother posting here? lol, seriously your optimism is crazy! Although I am very impressed with how Kanter improved his explosiveness and speed and figured out how to keep ball up after rebounds he is far, far, far from being able to hit mid range jumpers consistently - heck he did not even hit rim on one of his shots vs Clippers, not an airball but hitting backboard and missing rim from 15ft is hardly an indication and hope that he can hit mid range jumpers on regular basis. Second, he is not solid free throw shooter, 66% is mediocre at best. Not sure where you getting that he is 7ft either. He is 6'975 without shoes and with shoes he is listed at 6'11, even if he looks smaller when standing near big AL who is listed at 6'10. Not really most important but please, he is not 7 footer.
Preseason can be very deceiving, big numbers vs scrubs who won't play major role in NBA should be taken with caution. Just see how he struggled vs Thabeet and it gives you better idea - at this point he is not ready to start and play big minutes for the Jazz.

Struggled against Thabeet? Big turkey hung 12 and 12 on Thabeet in 18 minutes. If that's struggling then god help the NBA when he doesn't struggle.

I'm assuming you meant Jordan/Hollins for the Clippers and not Thabeet. Even there though, he clearly got the better of Hollins, and even in what was by far his worst game of the pre-season, he still produced 4 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks, and ZERO turnovers in 18 minutes of play.

Still, I agree with your premise Kanter isn't quite ready to be an anchoring starter on this team.

You shouldn't discount the value of dominating inferior opponents when it comes to measuring skill level though, in fact that margin of domination is one of the most reliable indicators that a player (or team) is truly better than their peers, and Kanters dominance has certainly been more than enough to warrant some excited optimism, both in the logic of the statistical mind and the insanity of the FANatic.

There is no questioning that Kanter is clearly a better player than he was a season ago the kid is really stepping up his game and is on his way to becoming a very good player in this league no doubt about it.

dongibby wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Calgary Jazz wrote:

T-Wick wrote:

. He is much more confident in taking mid range shots which we all know he can hit consistenly. And to top all of that off he is a very very very solid free throw shooter for a 7 footer who is as strong as he is. I'm really happy we drafted this kid, and if he keeps working as hard as he has for his whole carreer, it won't he long until he is competing with Dwight Howard as to who is the best C in the league

Is this Mutang's little brother posting here? lol, seriously your optimism is crazy! Although I am very impressed with how Kanter improved his explosiveness and speed and figured out how to keep ball up after rebounds he is far, far, far from being able to hit mid range jumpers consistently - heck he did not even hit rim on one of his shots vs Clippers, not an airball but hitting backboard and missing rim from 15ft is hardly an indication and hope that he can hit mid range jumpers on regular basis. Second, he is not solid free throw shooter, 66% is mediocre at best. Not sure where you getting that he is 7ft either. He is 6'975 without shoes and with shoes he is listed at 6'11, even if he looks smaller when standing near big AL who is listed at 6'10. Not really most important but please, he is not 7 footer.
Preseason can be very deceiving, big numbers vs scrubs who won't play major role in NBA should be taken with caution. Just see how he struggled vs Thabeet and it gives you better idea - at this point he is not ready to start and play big minutes for the Jazz.

Struggled against Thabeet? Big turkey hung 12 and 12 on Thabeet in 18 minutes. If that's struggling then god help the NBA when he doesn't struggle.

I'm assuming you meant Jordan/Hollins for the Clippers and not Thabeet. Even there though, he clearly got the better of Hollins, and even in what was by far his worst game of the pre-season, he still produced 4 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks, and ZERO turnovers in 18 minutes of play.

Still, I agree with your premise Kanter isn't quite ready to be an anchoring starter on this team.

You shouldn't discount the value of dominating inferior opponents when it comes to measuring skill level though, in fact that margin of domination is one of the most reliable indicators that a player (or team) is truly better than their peers, and Kanters dominance has certainly been more than enough to warrant some excited optimism, both in the logic of the statistical mind and the insanity of the FANatic.

There is no questioning that Kanter is clearly a better player than he was a season ago the kid is really stepping up his game and is on his way to becoming a very good player in this league no doubt about it.

He is going to continue to improve as he gets more time playing the game. He is so much quicker and stronger than he was last season. It's going to be fun watching him mature and improve as he gets more game experience.

Evan's block, dunk is Play of the week. Interestingly Burks dunk is #2.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/top_plays/2012/10/22/20121021-potw.nba/

Romoholic wrote:

Evan's block, dunk is Play of the week. Interestingly Burks dunk is #2.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/top_plays/2012/10/22/20121021-potw.nba/

OK, since when did two Jazz players, much less a 2 year and 3 year guy, make #1 and #2 play of the weeks, even though it is pre-season? This team is seriously athletic and therefore are going to be a hoot to watch!

MTJazz wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Evan's block, dunk is Play of the week. Interestingly Burks dunk is #2.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/top_plays/2012/10/22/20121021-potw.nba/

OK, since when did two Jazz players, much less a 2 year and 3 year guy, make #1 and #2 play of the weeks, even though it is pre-season? This team is seriously athletic and therefore are going to be a hoot to watch!

ESPN and NBA TV will not be able to ignore the Jazz this season!

Getting spanked tonight though.

Anybody watching? What gives?

Looks like the starters got absolutely torched defensively.

TheMagnus wrote:

Getting spanked tonight though.

Anybody watching? What gives?

Looks like the starters got absolutely torched defensively.

I've been watching it. The Blazers are just really hot shooting and turnovers have been a problem all night as well.

TheMagnus wrote:

Getting spanked tonight though.

Anybody watching? What gives?

Looks like the starters got absolutely torched defensively.

Good team with lots of young guns! But hell there's no way they'll be trying to get a playoff spot?

TheMagnus wrote:

Struggled against Thabeet? Big turkey hung 12 and 12 on Thabeet in 18 minutes.

No, he collected nice stats in second half mainly. First half vs Thabeet he turned the ball over 3 times, missed 3 shots and basically struggled badly. 4th quarter he played and dominated Aldrich.

Calgary Jazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Struggled against Thabeet? Big turkey hung 12 and 12 on Thabeet in 18 minutes.

No, he collected nice stats in second half mainly. First half vs Thabeet he turned the ball over 3 times, missed 3 shots and basically struggled badly. 4th quarter he played and dominated Aldrich.

Rigghhhttt, whatever you say man.

I know you dug real deep and worked real hard to come up with an example you could use to furiously tamp down your fellow Jazz fans "rediculous optimism", so maybe I'll just ignore the fact that Aldrich is universally considered BETTER than Thabeet and will be the primary backup C for the Thunder this season, that 13 of Thabeets 16 minutes came against Kanter, and when Thabeet fouled out in the fourth (ya, that's 6 fouls in 16 minutes) Kanter had played every second of his time to that point against Thabeet and in those 13 minutes had only 1 turnover to go with his 4 points (2-5 shooting, 1-3 in the first half), 6 rebounds, and 1 assist.

Ooops, sorry about that, I really was going to let you have that one. I know how much you need your kanter negativity to get you through the day, guess that's my bad.