Training Camp News and Discussion

Looking forward to evaluating Marvin on tv games. Looks like he's doing great. What's up with Foye btw? If he keeps shooting terribly I say give Burks more minutes. Gotta see Lantern show more than the up-and-under. Horny needs to advise Favors on shooting, apparently.........It's hard to know in the preseason but Mo seems like a good fit. Good to see Tinsley get minutes for his floor leadership...maybe him and Favors can have some competitive horse games for the Jazz to improve to championship level shooting.... Sap may never see the sf position over 10 minutes if Marv is the man. Romney is giving Obama a run for his money but we all know Bama would kill him in basketball. Other than that, the weather is getting colder and I miss Stanley on Threes Company on occasion.

Both mo wills are looking like allstar cal players. If IF Marv keeps playing like this hawks will be asking themselves why? We all know why ! Hawks had way to many players who love to shoot and not enough balls to go around. Love what he brings here. Welcome to the jazz. Should be a fun year for jazz ball boys!

My usual websites are not aggregating the pre season stats at a glance. Any of the websites doing this? Also, have any of the games been televised yet? Seems like Kanter, Marvin and Mo are going to help us a lot. And it is difficult not to conclude that Tinsley likely sees the floor as well or better than anyone on offense (assists/48mins), and will probably flourish more this year than last year (more minutes at backup PG?), knowing the team better and having more shooters around him, his lack of quickness on defense notwithstanding. JMH guess. Go Jazz!!!

aliveandkickin wrote:

Looking forward to evaluating Marvin on tv games. Looks like he's doing great. What's up with Foye btw? If he keeps shooting terribly I say give Burks more minutes. Gotta see Lantern show more than the up-and-under. Horny needs to advise Favors on shooting, apparently.........It's hard to know in the preseason but Mo seems like a good fit. Good to see Tinsley get minutes for his floor leadership...maybe him and Favors can have some competitive horse games for the Jazz to improve to championship level shooting.... Sap may never see the sf position over 10 minutes if Marv is the man. Romney is giving Obama a run for his money but we all know Bama would kill him in basketball. Other than that, the weather is getting colder and I miss Stanley on Threes Company on occasion.

Kanter's been hitting jumpers, so that's something.


I don't think Horny is the guy Favors needs to see, Rick Majerus is more like it. He should be forbidden from shooting a jumper this season, if he wants to score he should be setting screens and attacking the rim, let him work on his jumper in the offseason.

While they have all had some moments, none of the 3 guys (Foye, Burks, Carroll backing up the wing have been overly impressive, and with the way Kanter is playing I think you have to be looking to get him more minutes, so I'd think a better approach would be to move Hayward to SG almost full time and give Millsap the minutes at SF.

Are Bell /Watson still on the roster?

Quinn/Jackson are out there waiting to round a nice 15 man roster... just sayin'

Mo Williams, Tinsley, Quinn (Foye, Burks)
Hayward, Burks, Foye, Murphy (Mo Williams)
Marvin Williams, (Hayward), Carroll (Millsap)
Millsap, Favors, Evans, Jackson (Jefferson, Kanter)
Jefferson, Kanter (Favors)

Guys not in uniform would probably be Quinn, Murphy, Jackson; I think these guys could get minutes in 3 or 4 teams out there...
A guard goes down you get a quality sub PG with great poise with a nice shot in Quinn...
A wing goes down you put an uni on a young good shooter with good feeling for the game...
A big goes down and you have a bruiser that seems to understad some basketball with kind of a mid range game...

I know I'm greedy, but it would be a nice feeling after years of the likes of Miles, Collins, Watson, Howard, Harris, Bell and other no good enough players getting prime rotation minutes...

Greg and Gail, please, if Lindsey and KOC cannot trade and then just waive them... it would end up being a good financial decision not to allow Jazz offense to get stalled ever again.

With Marvin Williams and Hayward aboard (even Burks in small lineups) I really don't see Millsap playing more than spot minutes here and there at the 3. Just MHO of course. I would ask a guy like Paul to play out of hir comfort zone only if it is completely unavoidable or if rival coaches make a huge mismatch mistake for a couple minutes.

outerspacefan wrote:

With Marvin Williams and Hayward aboard (even Burks in small lineups) I really don't see Millsap playing more than spot minutes here and there at the 3. Just MHO of course. I would ask a guy like Paul to play out of hir comfort zone only if it is completely unavoidable or if rival coaches make a huge mismatch mistake for a couple minutes.

I'm just thinking of getting the best players the minutes, and right now Mo, Gordon, Marvin, Paul, Derrick, Enes, and Al are without question the best players, and they are the guys you want playing the most minutes. Millsap played very well at the 3 last year, the Jazz "big 3" lineup was devastatingly effective and was really the only lineup the Jazz had that even competed with the Spurs in the playoffs, so I don't think there is any doubt he can play the position and play it well. Also, right now, you have Foye and Burks playing inconsistently while Kanter is just beasting every night. So right now I'd say moving Millsap to 3 part time and giving minutes to Kanter will have a more positive outcome than leaving Millsap at the 4 and giving more minutes to Foye or Burks.

outerspacefan wrote:

Are Bell /Watson still on the roster?

Quinn/Jackson are out there waiting to round a nice 15 man roster... just sayin'

Mo Williams, Tinsley, Quinn (Foye, Burks)
Hayward, Burks, Foye, Murphy (Mo Williams)
Marvin Williams, (Hayward), Carroll (Millsap)
Millsap, Favors, Evans, Jackson (Jefferson, Kanter)
Jefferson, Kanter (Favors)

Guys not in uniform would probably be Quinn, Murphy, Jackson; I think these guys could get minutes in 3 or 4 teams out there...
A guard goes down you get a quality sub PG with great poise with a nice shot in Quinn...
A wing goes down you put an uni on a young good shooter with good feeling for the game...
A big goes down and you have a bruiser that seems to understad some basketball with kind of a mid range game...

I know I'm greedy, but it would be a nice feeling after years of the likes of Miles, Collins, Watson, Howard, Harris, Bell and other no good enough players getting prime rotation minutes...

Greg and Gail, please, if Lindsey and KOC cannot trade and then just waive them... it would end up being a good financial decision not to allow Jazz offense to get stalled ever again.

Agree, I've been hearing good things about Quinn especially.

I think Murphy ends up spending most of his time in the D-league unless the Jazz have injury problems.

The big three line-up may be more effective this year because the Jazz can put two shooters out there with them. The Jazz didn't have a PG who had a strong outside shot last year. This year, with Mo, that's not an issue. Mo and Foye or Mo and maybe Gordon, would still spread the floor enough that Favors, Al and Paul would be able to stay closer to the baket on offense without the opposing D being able to completely collapse on them.

There has been quite a bit of chatter about the Jazz new style of play....

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/55065924-87/jazz-corbin-utah-offense.html.csp

That's kind of misleading though, because it's not really new, rather its the old stuff on fast forward. Corbin has them running the ball up the court, make or miss, and then going straight from a secondary break into an offense. Mo is the catalyst, and has been dictating the faster tempo. Locke has been reporting that the biggest effect of this is that it is redistributing the Jazz shots, primarily away from Jefferson. I think some of that is just because it's the preseason, but if the Jazz do consistently get more offense earlier in the shot clock then Jefferson is going to be the odd man out.

Personally I love this development, absolutely love it. I think a lot of us have been hoping for a more uptempo style for a couple years now, especially with this group of players.

One thing that this has got me thinking about is the ongoing argument about who should start, Favors or Millsap.

First of all let me say that with this uptempo style I think the Jazz best lineup will be Mo, Gordon, Marvin, Paul, and Derrick hands down. I think that group is almost scary good with this style...makes me all tingly and exited just thinking about it...moving on.

You don't want the second unit to come in and run something different than the first unit, you want personel to be interchangeable based on matchups and for everyone to know what role they fill when they are playing with different groups of players. The way the offense is structured now is that it goes secondary break straight into a post centric flex/motion scheme. With the first unit the the post centers around Jefferson (or whoever has a missmatch, but usually Jefferson). Last season they tried to bring Millsap off the bench, but they were faced with the stark reality Bell (age), Hayward (mental), and Favors (skills) were not ready for prime time offensively, and that they NEEDED Millsap to start. This year it is a different story. Hayward appears to be more confident, and the William's look really good, so even though it doesn't appear Favors made any progress offensively, they don't NEED Millsap to start anymore.

So when I think about them running the same stuff with the second unit as they do with the first, I start to wonder who they run the post to? If it's Favors and Kanter on the court they pretty much have to run it to one of those guys, and while Kanter seems to have made some improvement, that is basically what they did last year and the second unit was generally terrible offensively. But if it's Millsap on the second unit then they can run the entire offense through him.

I'm still not completely convinced that is the right thing to do, Millsap is one of the Jazz best players and if he starts he plays more minutes, but if that is the way it goes it is making more sense to me now.

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm still not completely convinced that is the right thing to do, Millsap is one of the Jazz best players and if he starts he plays more minutes, but if that is the way it goes it is making more sense to me now.

I agree with pretty much everything you said here Mag's.

Up-tempo does seem to fit the team very well, with the exception of Al. Doesn't mean Al can't be very useful though. Afterall, you can't get out & break on every play no matter how hard you try. As a team, there are plenty of times when it comes down to scoring in the half court, and Al is a champ at doing so.

I'm a little suprised to hear you say that Sap might be better suited, in the scheme of things, to come off the bench. I'm not shocked that you're open enough to change your mind though. I have a feeling that at the end of the day it will me Al & Sap starting, but I have said all along that I like Paul killing it with the second unit. If Harden, Ginobli, Terry, Odom, Danny Manning, D.Schrempf, Kukoc, etc can be All Star caliber players who get starter minutes off the bench, then why not Paul?

zero24gravity wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm still not completely convinced that is the right thing to do, Millsap is one of the Jazz best players and if he starts he plays more minutes, but if that is the way it goes it is making more sense to me now.

I'm a little suprised to hear you say that Sap might be better suited, in the scheme of things, to come off the bench. I'm not shocked that you're open enough to change your mind though. I have a feeling that at the end of the day it will me Al & Sap starting, but I have said all along that I like Paul killing it with the second unit. If Harden, Ginobli, Terry, Odom, Danny Manning, D.Schrempf, Kukoc, etc can be All Star caliber players who get starter minutes off the bench, then why not Paul?

Ya, no doubt Paul is capable of it.

As a counterpoint to my own points, I just read this solid piece of analysis from SLCDunk.com

clarkpajo wrote:

On the other hand, people seem to be concerned about Derrick Favors' lack of offensive improvement. It is absolutely true that Derrick appears to be a similar offensive player to last season and that's on Derrick. What isn't clear is why that seems to be a justification for not starting/playing Derrick major minutes. If it isn't clear to anyone reading this, from the last 20-30 games last season that Favors needs to start and play 30 + minutes a night, then he may never be "starter material" for you during his career. Here are two things we do know:
a. Unless Favors is on the court as well, Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap are as defensively effective as the Charlotte Bobcats last year on a per 100 possession basis.
b. For whatever reason, the Utah Jazz have chosen not to play to Derrick's offensive strengths.


Kevin Pelton is describing Detroit Piston's rookie Andre Drummond, but I think his point is applicable to Derrick Favors' situation. Favors has been put in offensive situations that exploit his weaknesses so far this preseason and we've all wondered why he hasn't produced. He, and the Jazz, need to get back to what he does well.


Here is a rundown of each of his offensive possessions against LA, for instance.

Isolation right elbow- ended in a blocked shot on a drive
Isolation left elbow- made basket and the foul on a drive
Isolation left elbow- missed jump shot
Defensive rebound went coast to coast- foul and two free throws
Turnover- travel
15 foot baseline jumper- miss
Left block Isolation- turnover
Two missed alley oops- one poorly thrown
Dunk off a cherry pick
Pick and Roll with Hayward- shooting foul- 2 FTs
Def Rebound taken coast to coast- shooting foul- 2 FTs

All of that adds up to a very pedestrian 2-6 shooting, 4-7 from the line, 8 points and 2 turnovers. But only one pick and roll and no offensive rebound putbacks. Mo Williams has actually been impressive to me this preseason, but he missed Favors on 3 pick and rolls that would've ended in either dunks or free throw shots. I still believe that Favors should probably start, but now I'm starting to think that he might benefit from playing with a point guard like Jamaal Tinsley.

So this guy obviously has the opposite starting point from me (thinking favors should start) and is going the opposite direction, thinking that playing with a PG that can play to his strengths might be the best thing. This is something we discussed before here, and I completely agree with this point, the Jazz are seriously missusing Favors by expecting him to create his shots the way the Jazz other bigs can. If they continue to use him like that he's basically last years version Amare Staudomire, where he could be Amare Staudomire circa 2005 if he had a PG feeding him the ball where he can do something with it.

Whether he starts or not I think that is something the Jazz need to realize and adjust, Favors is not a post scorer and he's not a jump shooter. Period. If half of his posessions are isolations and jump shots then the Jazz are failing to use Favors effectively half of the time. Every one of his shot attempts should come as a result of him getting the ball while moving TOWARDS THE BASKET.

That is why I say he should be spending time with Rick Majerus rather than Hornaceck. I remember watching Majerus just absolutely going ballistic when his bigs didn't attack the basket. If one of his bigs layed it in instead of dunking it, when they could have dunked it, he made them run lines, or worse, he would climb his fat ass up on their back and make them try and jump to the rim. He gave his guys rewards for running people over and getting called for offensive fouls. That's what Favors needs, somebody to pound it into his brain that his sole purpose is to mercilessly attack the rim, and that all of his efforts should be focussed on finding ways to get open so he can get the ball as close the rim as possible.

TheMagnus wrote:

So this guy obviously has the opposite starting point from me (thinking favors should start) and is going the opposite direction, thinking that playing with a PG that can play to his strengths might be the best thing. This is something we discussed before here, and I completely agree with this point, the Jazz are seriously missusing Favors by expecting him to create his shots the way the Jazz other bigs can. If they continue to use him like that he's basically last years version Amare Staudomire, where he could be Amare Staudomire circa 2005 if he had a PG feeding him the ball where he can do something with it.

Whether he starts or not I think that is something the Jazz need to realize and adjust, Favors is not a post scorer and he's not a jump shooter. Period. If half of his posessions are isolations and jump shots then the Jazz are failing to use Favors effectively half of the time. Every one of his shot attempts should come as a result of him getting the ball while moving TOWARDS THE BASKET.

That is why I say he should be spending time with Rick Majerus rather than Hornaceck. I remember watching Majerus just absolutely going ballistic when his bigs didn't attack the basket. If one of his bigs layed it in instead of dunking it, when they could have dunked it, he made them run lines, or worse, he would climb his fat ass up on their back and make them try and jump to the rim. He gave his guys rewards for running people over and getting called for offensive fouls. That's what Favors needs, somebody to pound it into his brain that his sole purpose is to mercilessly attack the rim, and that all of his efforts should be focussed on finding ways to get open so he can get the ball as close the rim as possible.

This is EXCELLENT stuff!

It would be great if Favors could develop a jump shot, but at this point, his freak size & athetisism should still be able to get him 12-14 PPG alone.

I also agree that Tinsley, not Mo, is probably the best Jazz PG to play alongside of Derrick. Mo's shooting is a great & necessary addition to the team, BUT he isn't known as a great passer/floor general. Derrick needs a guy who can get him the ball in a spot where he can make a quick & decisive move to the basket.

That doesn't mean that Derrick can't start though. It just means that they may need to adjust ubstitution patterns to give him the best chance to be effective.

If Jamal is the full-fledged #2 PG, then he'll likely play about 18 MPG. Paul can come in early for Derrick, so Paul is playing for a few minutes before Jamal comes in. Then Derrick can come back in for either Paul or more likely Al & play with Tinsley for a few minutes. If Favors is on the floor for about 10-12 of the minutes that Jamal is out there, it'd probably best.

Good points about Favors being primarily a pick-and-roll guy on offense till he shows he can hit J's consistently. Not sure how well Hayward runs the pick-and-roll but when Tinsley is out and Mags running team is in , Hayawrd may be an option to run it with Favors. Having Mo on the side help would come from would open him up for threes as well if they ran it on the right side free throw line. Plus Favors likes his cheese on that side if I'm not mistaken

This strategy talk gets me fired up...... not that Corbin will follow our obviously brilliant strategies.

Another nice Preseason game, beating the Lakers decisivley for the second time in a row (without Pau or Dwight this time). Good to see Favors, Burks & Gordon all have a nice game.

Preseason doesn't mean a ton, but it's still better to win than to lose regardless. The Jazz second team has outplayed the Lakers second team players in both games according to what I've read & the box score.

zero24gravity wrote:

Another nice Preseason game, beating the Lakers decisivley for the second time in a row (without Pau or Dwight this time). Good to see Favors, Burks & Gordon all have a nice game.

Preseason doesn't mean a ton, but it's still better to win than to lose regardless. The Jazz second team has outplayed the Lakers second team players in both games according to what I've read & the box score.

Utah Jazz second team outplayed Lakers 1b team last night, it was when they hit the floor against the Lakers starters in the first quarter that the Jazz really started to blow the game open.

Looks like Favors may have been listening ot us bad mouthing his shot selection (I'm sure he was), last night he only took one jumper in 6 shot attempts.

TheMagnus wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Another nice Preseason game, beating the Lakers decisivley for the second time in a row (without Pau or Dwight this time). Good to see Favors, Burks & Gordon all have a nice game.

Preseason doesn't mean a ton, but it's still better to win than to lose regardless. The Jazz second team has outplayed the Lakers second team players in both games according to what I've read & the box score.

Utah Jazz second team outplayed Lakers 1b team last night, it was when they hit the floor against the Lakers starters in the first quarter that the Jazz really started to blow the game open.

Looks like Favors may have been listening ot us bad mouthing his shot selection (I'm sure he was), last night he only took one jumper in 6 shot attempts.

His shot selection is gonna be key for him. He has to be very effective with his time on the floor. Otherwise Corbin will go more with Al and Milsap. An occasional jump shot is ok, because it opens up other things, but his bread and butter needs to be around the rim. He'll get it though. The dude is just too talented and smart to not figure it out!

Mo and Favors both out of tonights game vs the Clips with minor injuries.

Marvin amd Gordy looking good early. Foye, playing back-up to Tinsley at PG, hits a three within 10 seconds of entering the game against his old team.

First game on TV for me. .... excited to see them, even without Mo and Derrick.

zero24gravity wrote:

Mo and Favors both out of tonights game vs the Clips with minor injuries.

Marvin amd Gordy looking good early. Foye, playing back-up to Tinsley at PG, hits a three within 10 seconds of entering the game against his old team.

First game on TV for me. .... excited to see them, even without Mo and Derrick.

Listening on the radio, I love the more aggressive offensive play this year...

TheMagnus wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Mo and Favors both out of tonights game vs the Clips with minor injuries.

Marvin amd Gordy looking good early. Foye, playing back-up to Tinsley at PG, hits a three within 10 seconds of entering the game against his old team.

First game on TV for me. .... excited to see them, even without Mo and Derrick.

Listening on the radio, I love the more aggressive offensive play this year...

The second unit looked great. Strong bench play may end up being the difference between a decent record and making the playoffs.

Evans made things happen. His block and then dunk in this game will probably be one of the greatest highlight plays of the entire season.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=M_CVAJBIwTA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DM_CVAJBIwTA

Foye shot well, Enes rebounded well, Burks attacked.

To bad the starters, other than Sap, melted down in the third quarter.

Al reverted to a lot of black-hole-basketball, while Gordon just disappeared after a strong first half.

Oh well, it was nice to see the guys out there playing again. I love that Millsap is so into Griffin's head. That match-up is already a lot more hard core than CP3/DWill ever was.

zero24gravity wrote:

The second unit looked great. Strong bench play may end up being the difference between a decent record and making the playoffs.

Evans made things happen. His block and then dunk in this game will probably be one of the greatest highlight plays of the entire season.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=M_CVAJBIwTA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DM_CVAJBIwTA

Foye shot well, Enes rebounded well, Burks attacked.

To bad the starters, other than Sap, melted down in the third quarter.

Al reverted to a lot of black-hole-basketball, while Gordon just disappeared after a strong first half.

Oh well, it was nice to see the guys out there playing again. I love that Millsap is so into Griffin's head. That match-up is already a lot more hard core than CP3/DWill ever was.

Thanks for the recap. Griffin is such a punk, one of the truly douchey players in the NBA, but you can't deny the talent.

Here's some notes from the game from ESPN's Kevin Arnovitz...

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/50446/notes-file-clippers-jazz-blake-griffin-and-the-flex

It turns out that the game was not broadcast on TV where I was like I had expected, so I only watched a little bit of the game on live streaming on the computer. During the part I watched, Bledsoe easily beat Tinsley a couple of times to get in to the paint, and Kanter was slow in reacting to come over to help. Crawford seemed to be able to easily get where he wanted to go too. That seemed disconcerting, but admittedly, I didn't have a meaningful sample with respect to minutes watched. I am not sure whether any of the websites do breakdowns on points scored in the paint and the like during this pre-season, and I am too busy to look.

The San Diego announcers kept marveling at the depth of San Diego's team, suggesting they may have the deepest bench in the league, but they also noted multiple times that the Jazz have a very deep bench as well. Go Jazz!!!

Last nights game just increased my excitement for the season. Yeah we lost, but just watching the way this team plays is encouraging. They feed very well of each other and are such a quick team. I love seeing guys knocking down open threes and love love love that we have the personnel to match up with any line up in the league. We can go small, we can go big, Whatever the opposition wants to do we can match.

Romoholic wrote:

Last nights game just increased my excitement for the season. Yeah we lost, but just watching the way this team plays is encouraging. They feed very well of each other and are such a quick team. I love seeing guys knocking down open threes and love love love that we have the personnel to match up with any line up in the league. We can go small, we can go big, Whatever the opposition wants to do we can match.

we had players with advantage out there but missed out not posting up the right players when need be. Something the jazz really need to focus on better when in half court sets. still much work to be done.

Richardale wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

Last nights game just increased my excitement for the season. Yeah we lost, but just watching the way this team plays is encouraging. They feed very well of each other and are such a quick team. I love seeing guys knocking down open threes and love love love that we have the personnel to match up with any line up in the league. We can go small, we can go big, Whatever the opposition wants to do we can match.

we had players with advantage out there but missed out not posting up the right players when need be. Something the jazz really need to focus on better when in half court sets. still much work to be done.

Yeah, but it's not because of talent, It's execution that needs work. We have one of the most talented teams in the league right now. The team is a little young to expect a title run, but it's coming!