Start Hayward and DC

I pretty much already started this thread under the PHX GTS in response to a post I agreed with from Tang but think it deserves its own space. In a nutshell, the starting rotation (especially without Mo) is slow and plays terrible D, frequently digging themselves really nice holes for the bench unit to bail them out of. Putting DC and Hayward out there significantly upgrades the starting defense and floor energy and with Sap actually makes it respectable - three whirling dervishes. While Marvin does play decent D, he is not quite in the same multi-tool class of HeyHey. Its about energy, not just competently doing your job out there. And, while I would love to see Favors get a start over Al to further round out the starting D, we know that is not going to happen. Instead, how about regularly pulling Al when its clear his offense is not making up for his poor defense. Let Favors then run to exhaustion and put Al back into the lineup with the lead when his defensive liabilities have lesser impact. And, never put in Watson unless Burks gets into foul trouble. I vote for giving the most energetic team members way more tick and a mandatory 2 oops attempts by Evans every game.

Yea I was thinking I put this in the wrong thread. And now this one is better. I'd also say I dont like the idea of moving Hayward anywhere from where he's been. He's found his niche, and is really really good right now with that second unit. I think moving Foye to the 2nd unit and DC to the first would help both of them. Hustle and D for the first unit, and outside shooting for the second unit. Win win.

BUt anyway, UGH!!!! I HATED that PHX game. It was a win against a terrible team, but still.....It really only stems from the 1st quarter I guess, but it was so ugly, it was depressing. Even with the win. Thankfully Corbin just barely squeaked his head out of his ass long enough to see that our starting unit is pathetic. Going into Al time and time again, other guys standing around, not moving, all with that unit is an absolutely terrible starting unit. Al, Foye and really Tinsley who all are slow as sh*t and cant play any D, makes for 75% shooting like PHX did that first half. Once we got down by 12 or whatever, Corbin finally got Gordo in there who started making things happen.
Our starting unit has NO movement, there is no team game and if it stays as it is, we're going to go down hard the rest of the year. There are no offensive options, and the defense and hustle is non-existant.
Getting DC in there will make a big difference for that starting 5. His hustle will create extra possessions, and his defense help and team, is a difference maker that that particular unit has got to have.
The only reason we got back in that game was Gordo/Fav/DC/Burks. And once that unit got things moving, Paul game back and was able to come in and be the Millsap we know. And then, THEN there was finally defense, movement, good shots, rebounds, hustle and the Jazz took a lead they never lost. Was funny too, that once the rest of the starters/Jazz saw those hustle guys going, guys like Al came in and all of a sudden there was movement. Layups under the basket from Al after he actually got deep position, instead of just the camping out 7ft from the basket and calling for the ball.
There has GOT to be a change to the starting unit and rotations. That collection of guys for the starting 5 is TERRIBLE. Slow point, slow wing, slow rim protector.We will get down in the first quarter of every game. Also, that particular unit is one that doesn't utilize what Paul brings at all. Paul is the best all around player, but not one of those guys, aside from Tinsely a bit, is a guy that can play the team type of ball that Paul excels at. Hitting Paul on the move and when he gets open, and those guys also on the move because he's a great passer. And on D....ugh, there isn't even a point.

If there isn't at least DC put in the starting 5 for Foye soon, there is a losing streak coming fast and hard.

I agree with starting Demarre Carroll. Some much needed energy to start the game. He isn't a lights out shooter, but I would probably still start him at the 2.
I would leave Hayward where he is though. He seems to be more comfortable coming off the bench. I think he is thriving there.
If anything....maybe start DC and Burks. Bring Hayward and Marvin off the bench with Foye as your needed sniper off the bench.

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I agree with starting Demarre Carroll. Some much needed energy to start the game. He isn't a lights out shooter, but I would probably still start him at the 2.
I would leave Hayward where he is though. He seems to be more comfortable coming off the bench. I think he is thriving there.
If anything....maybe start DC and Burks. Bring Hayward and Marvin off the bench with Foye as your needed sniper off the bench.

I'm not sure that Burks is ready for starting. In fact, I'm convinced of that, but he could get there if he gets enough tick with the second unit to get his game more consistently there, ( like not jumping into the trees without any options besides a circus shot). As for Hey, I really think he is destined to be a starter in this league, so why not let him go through some "pressure" in the starting role now? I could see him growing into it, and if not, he will make a super living as a 6th man. I stand by opinion that the starting unit, at least until Moe gets back, needs more than DC to get some spark going.

I'm just really tired of feeling like the front office has to build a team around the assumption that the coaching is going to be bad and we just have to work with that because it isn't going to change.

When I look at the problems Corbin has I really feel like he is emulating Jerry Sloan's "go with your gut and trust veteran consistency over youthful energy" coaching style, only he's not nearly as good a coach as Sloan so the results are disastrous. He seems to make his decisions based on what SHOULD work, and then sticks with those things even when they aren't working and messes with the things that are actually working but don't fit within the box of principles that he's using to make his decisions.

That is the only thing I can think of to explain his coaching this year, because when you really look at the things that he has done it looks almost comically bad. About the only thing that I can really give him a positive nod for is moving Hayward to the bench. That was a solid move. Outside of that I can't see a single thing he has done that has actually helped this team be better. Right now they are winning simply because the players are good enough to win, there is only one or two games I can think of this year where I could honestly say that I thought Corbin's coaching helped the Jazz win the game, and the things he did that I thought were genius he's almost never gone back to, as if he was just made a lucky guess and wrote it off as such.

This is tough for me as a Jazz fan, because one of the things I've always loved about the Jazz is consistency and the system, and one of the things I loved about going with a Jerry Sloan prodigy was that familiar proven system would remain. I was full and ready to watch Corbin struggle a bit and give him a couple years to find his footing... but those couple years are dragging on, and I'm really disappointed in what I am seeing form Corbin this season, because he's simply making the same mistakes he made last season. So I have to face the reality that a coaching change at this point would probably mean that the legendary Jerry Sloan offense would probably go with the coach, and that if I don't believe in Corbin then a coaching change is really what I think should happen.

So that is my existential crisis, but here in fantasy land where I can pretend to be the coach I would replace Foye with Carroll in the starting lineup, make Foye the backup PG, and hand Watson a clipboard and some wing tips. I would stop making Millsap the first player to the bench and make that decision based on who was bringing it on that particular night. I wouldn't hesitate to clear the entire bench early in the first/third quarter if the first unit looked bad, and I would be more willing to go with more extreme lineups like super small with Williams at the 4 and Millsap or Favors at C and the big 3 (which has suddenly disappeared from the arsenal).

MTJazz wrote:

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I agree with starting Demarre Carroll. Some much needed energy to start the game. He isn't a lights out shooter, but I would probably still start him at the 2.
I would leave Hayward where he is though. He seems to be more comfortable coming off the bench. I think he is thriving there.
If anything....maybe start DC and Burks. Bring Hayward and Marvin off the bench with Foye as your needed sniper off the bench.

I'm not sure that Burks is ready for starting. In fact, I'm convinced of that, but he could get there if he gets enough tick with the second unit to get his game more consistently there, ( like not jumping into the trees without any options besides a circus shot). As for Hey, I really think he is destined to be a starter in this league, so why not let him go through some "pressure" in the starting role now? I could see him growing into it, and if not, he will make a super living as a 6th man. I stand by opinion that the starting unit, at least until Moe gets back, needs more than DC to get some spark going.

Your argument about Hayward needing the "pressure" of the starting role could be made about Burks as well.
I respect your opinion, and see your point. However, I stand by my statement that I would still bring Hayward off the bench...for now. I think he is excelling in that role....and you need a starter quality 6th man to anchor the second unit (Ginobili, etc) i think Hayward is that guy.
I agree that DC might not be enough to shake up that first unit. I know this isn't going to be popular with everyone, but I would probably start Favors over Millsap. Millsap and Hayward leading the second unit would be sweet.

MTJazz wrote:

The Voice of Reason wrote:

I agree with starting Demarre Carroll. Some much needed energy to start the game. He isn't a lights out shooter, but I would probably still start him at the 2.
I would leave Hayward where he is though. He seems to be more comfortable coming off the bench. I think he is thriving there.
If anything....maybe start DC and Burks. Bring Hayward and Marvin off the bench with Foye as your needed sniper off the bench.

I'm not sure that Burks is ready for starting. In fact, I'm convinced of that, but he could get there if he gets enough tick with the second unit to get his game more consistently there, ( like not jumping into the trees without any options besides a circus shot). As for Hey, I really think he is destined to be a starter in this league, so why not let him go through some "pressure" in the starting role now? I could see him growing into it, and if not, he will make a super living as a 6th man. I stand by opinion that the starting unit, at least until Moe gets back, needs more than DC to get some spark going.

I don't think the "pressure" is really the problem, but rather the role. He may actually be better at this point with Mo out, but if you remember to start the year he was the 4th or 5th option with the starting unit and he just really had a hard time getting his rythm. With the second unit he is basically the first option offensively and he is thriving in that role.

But with Mo out, and Tinsley in his place, Hayward actually makes a fair bit of sense back in the starting lineup

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm just really tired of feeling like the front office has to build a team around the assumption that the coaching is going to be bad and we just have to work with that because it isn't going to change.

When I look at the problems Corbin has I really feel like he is emulating Jerry Sloan's "go with your gut and trust veteran consistency over youthful energy" coaching style, only he's not nearly as good a coach as Sloan so the results are disastrous. He seems to make his decisions based on what SHOULD work, and then sticks with those things even when they aren't working and messes with the things that are actually working but don't fit within the box of principles that he's using to make his decisions.

That is the only thing I can think of to explain his coaching this year, because when you really look at the things that he has done it looks almost comically bad. About the only thing that I can really give him a positive nod for is moving Hayward to the bench. That was a solid move. Outside of that I can't see a single thing he has done that has actually helped this team be better. Right now they are winning simply because the players are good enough to win, there is only one or two games I can think of this year where I could honestly say that I thought Corbin's coaching helped the Jazz win the game, and the things he did that I thought were genius he's almost never gone back to, as if he was just made a lucky guess and wrote it off as such.

This is tough for me as a Jazz fan, because one of the things I've always loved about the Jazz is consistency and the system, and one of the things I loved about going with a Jerry Sloan prodigy was that familiar proven system would remain. I was full and ready to watch Corbin struggle a bit and give him a couple years to find his footing... but those couple years are dragging on, and I'm really disappointed in what I am seeing form Corbin this season, because he's simply making the same mistakes he made last season. So I have to face the reality that a coaching change at this point would probably mean that the legendary Jerry Sloan offense would probably go with the coach, and that if I don't believe in Corbin then a coaching change is really what I think should happen.

So that is my existential crisis, but here in fantasy land where I can pretend to be the coach I would replace Foye with Carroll in the starting lineup, make Foye the backup PG, and hand Watson a clipboard and some wing tips. I would stop making Millsap the first player to the bench and make that decision based on who was bringing it on that particular night. I wouldn't hesitate to clear the entire bench early in the first/third quarter if the first unit looked bad, and I would be more willing to go with more extreme lineups like super small with Williams at the 4 and Millsap or Favors at C and the big 3 (which has suddenly disappeared from the arsenal).

You summed up a lot of my thoughts regarding the organization, loyalty, consistency, original patience with corbin waning, etc. I've always loved that about the jazz, but I think it's time to do what is best for the organization.

I like the the idea of bringing Marvin off the bench. Marvin would (hopefully) be much more useful with the second unit since his offense would be needed in a line up that features Favors and Kanter, instead of Paul and Al.

zero24gravity wrote:

I like the the idea of bringing Marvin off the bench. Marvin would (hopefully) be much more useful with the second unit since his offense would be needed in a line up that features Favors and Kanter, instead of Paul and Al.

That is exactly why I suggested it - give him more of a scoring role. He seems to frequently get lost in the Al-centric and Foye gunning offense. Plus, Hayward, while looking really good as the sixth man is needed in the current starting line-up because Mo is out - we need his energy, play making and scoring in the first line-up. I think Marvin could also thrive as the sixth man for the exact same reason Hayward is. Marvin is not a play maker, Hayward is. And further, I think Foye's game is more suited for the Vinnie the Microwave role back in the day with the Pistons. Instant offense off the bench and if he's not got it, sit his ass back down immediately. Just inserting DC is not enough of a tweak. The Jazz were already struggling with Mo and needed some lineup adjustments; now it is compounded.

Did you notice the kind of D played by Burks + Hayward + Carroll? It was friggin amazing.

TheMagnus wrote:

I'm just really tired of feeling like the front office has to build a team around the assumption that the coaching is going to be bad and we just have to work with that because it isn't going to change.

You nailed it! The problem is though, obviously the Jazz loyalty system goes well beyond Corbin and to the FO. What I think we all failed to appreciate was the structured offense that worked for a couple decades was due to the uniqueness of Jerry. Players either bought in immediately to his will or they were in the doghouse, he was respected because he could in fact get the most out of his players than most. Corbin does not, and the "system" is now being revealed as pretty goddamn antiquated in today's NBA and the fact that the pick and roll only kills when you have a stud PG and and a roller, which the Jazz don't have now. I think of the over-achieving teams in the league right now - the Warriors, Knicks, Houston, Atlanta, Bucks, Blazers, and the things they have in common is the coaches are all playing to their roster strengths. There is not a "system" so much as a coach who figures out who plays best with who and can adapt on the fly to injuries or match ups. I figure this to be one of the most disappointing seasons ever for the Jazz, barring any Lindsey/KOC alchemical magic before the trade deadline or Corbin firing, because ON PAPER the Jazz should be in the thick of the playoff race versus rapidly losing a sniff and heading to the lottery in a shitty draft year.

ABF folks, Anything But Foye. He needs to be used in that pure shooter role where he runs his guy crazy on offense, wears the guy out, gets a few threes, and sits back on the bench. 20 minutes per game maximum.

I also don't like Hayward starting. Not that he can't do it now, but it wasn't working out well for him and he's found a nice part in the rotation from the bench.

I'm not a fan of Burks' one dimensional game, but I would consider starting him in Foye's spot. Maybe Carroll can be a two, might even be better for him on defense as he gets worked over quite a bit by threes, but he still seems a three to me. Marvin-Burks, Marvin-Carroll, guess it doesn't matter to me....ABF!

Hey, isn't ABF a gay drink version of AMF? How 'bout AMFF by trade deadline (Adios MF Foye)?

outerspacefan wrote:

Did you notice the kind of D played by Burks + Hayward + Carroll? It was friggin amazing.

Those 3 play hellacious aggressive defense.

With Millsap added to that lineup and then any big except Al, it's an amazingly long, athletic, and motivated defense. THAT'S what gets the team over the usual "starters' hole" the Jazz routinely put up in the first 8 minutes of each half. The offense isn't always there (viz. the Phx game 2nd quarter), but the D always works.

About the only thing that could be better on D for that group is "reputation", and that seems to be coming surprisingly quickly. Don't usually see them get "put in their place" with a bunch of ticky tac fouls.

Well, Marvin was gimpin' around out there tonight like he was 90 years old, so maybe we'll get some more minutes for DC despite Corbin.

(0 minutes tonight and it would have been a perfect game for him-physical and chippy and won with hard defense in the 4th quarter.)

Trollificus wrote:

Well, Marvin was gimpin' around out there tonight like he was 90 years old, so maybe we'll get some more minutes for DC despite Corbin.

(0 minutes tonight and it would have been a perfect game for him-physical and chippy and won with hard defense in the 4th quarter.)

Yea took the words out of my mouth....I saw Marvin on the bench with that brace, and DC was my first thought. Its still getting a big screwy, since I really wanted him to replace Foye, but maybe now Marv goes down, and the combo of Burks/DC take Marvins minutes and some of Foyes, which would be ideal. Burks though, man he was finally released a bit! Looked good man, good. And acted like the zone buster we need too.....

But right, DC would have been perfect for this game. He would have frustrated numerous players out there. Damn, would have been good. I wonder if Ty is so blind to players that aren't offensive first.....thats gotta be it.
Good win.

I do take that win with a grain of salt since it was vs the Bobcats. But it was on the road sooo.....anyway.

Boom.

DC. I firmly believed he was a difference maker, and I think thats absolutely what happened last night. To start the game and the second half, DC did what he does best. He created extra possessions, hustled around, tipping balls/rebounds, hitting his open shots, basically wreaking havoc. And it was successful, being contagious to everyone else, and getting them going. With him running around, making cuts, attacking the glass etc, the Bobcats not only had to help in the post(which they got smoked) but they had to account for DC and his crazy ass. So that opened things up for Foye to be in the role he needs to be, which is a spot up shooter, not a creator/driver/pg etc. It also helped open things up for Gordo to shoot and do his thing, and of course in the post where Al and Paul had a field day.

I firmly believe in DC and his style of play for this team. It does so much more than I think is realized, making everyone's jobs easier. He's the guy everyone loves to play with, and hate to play against. And every good team has one.

Burks too. He's the type of player that we need out there. He's like Mo, but....hmmm but does more of the little DC type things. I still dont think that he needs to start, but this is the 2nd game in a row were Corbin finally had the light bulb go on, and Burks played more mins than Tinsley and Watson. Amazing. I think Tinsely starting is just right, gets guys doing what they need to be doing, and then Burks can come in and start attacking. I really like these substitutions and roles right now. And with Burks and DC both showing how good they can be, I like Marv still coming back into the starting unit to provide his 3's, size and rebounding, but DC staying in the starting 5 at the 2, with Foye going to the bench for his offensive punch.

Through no fault of his own, Corbin is being shown what actually SHOULD be happening...

Mutangclan wrote:

I do take that win with a grain of salt since it was vs the Bobcats. But it was on the road sooo.....anyway.

Boom.

DC. I firmly believed he was a difference maker, and I think thats absolutely what happened last night. To start the game and the second half, DC did what he does best. He created extra possessions, hustled around, tipping balls/rebounds, hitting his open shots, basically wreaking havoc. And it was successful, being contagious to everyone else, and getting them going. With him running around, making cuts, attacking the glass etc, the Bobcats not only had to help in the post(which they got smoked) but they had to account for DC and his crazy ass. So that opened things up for Foye to be in the role he needs to be, which is a spot up shooter, not a creator/driver/pg etc. It also helped open things up for Gordo to shoot and do his thing, and of course in the post where Al and Paul had a field day.

I firmly believe in DC and his style of play for this team. It does so much more than I think is realized, making everyone's jobs easier. He's the guy everyone loves to play with, and hate to play against. And every good team has one.

Burks too. He's the type of player that we need out there. He's like Mo, but....hmmm but does more of the little DC type things. I still dont think that he needs to start, but this is the 2nd game in a row were Corbin finally had the light bulb go on, and Burks played more mins than Tinsley and Watson. Amazing. I think Tinsely starting is just right, gets guys doing what they need to be doing, and then Burks can come in and start attacking. I really like these substitutions and roles right now. And with Burks and DC both showing how good they can be, I like Marv still coming back into the starting unit to provide his 3's, size and rebounding, but DC staying in the starting 5 at the 2, with Foye going to the bench for his offensive punch.

Through no fault of his own, Corbin is being shown what actually SHOULD be happening...

And then Josh Howard comes back & Corbin screws it all up ... oh wait, that was last year. Guess we will see if he's learned anything from his past mistakes. (Unfortunately, I doubt he has.)

Mutangclan wrote:

Through no fault of his own, Corbin is being shown what actually SHOULD be happening...

Well I gotta give Corbin some credit here. I've been as down on him as anybody but if I'm going ot hold him accountable for I believe are his poor choices I have to give him credit for his good ones. I'm still super dissapointed that it takes injuries to get Corbin to start doing things that really do work, but I have to admit that when he is forced into action he usually is making the right calls. Moving Hayward to the bench was a great move, puting Burks at the point with Foye and Hayward was a great move putting the big 3 out there was a great move. I think Corbin shows a great deal of creativity
and promise as a strategist at times, but I also feel like when his isn't faced with a crisis he seems to trust in things that aren't working while tinkering with things that are (the starting veteran lineup vs. the second unit for example).

So I'm not sure where I'm at with Corbin right now. I was super down on him, but he has once again shown that he's not beyond hope. He's still playing Foye too much, and who know's what will happen when Marvin comes back, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to give up on him yet.

zero24gravity wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

I do take that win with a grain of salt since it was vs the Bobcats. But it was on the road sooo.....anyway.

Boom.

DC. I firmly believed he was a difference maker, and I think thats absolutely what happened last night. To start the game and the second half, DC did what he does best. He created extra possessions, hustled around, tipping balls/rebounds, hitting his open shots, basically wreaking havoc. And it was successful, being contagious to everyone else, and getting them going. With him running around, making cuts, attacking the glass etc, the Bobcats not only had to help in the post(which they got smoked) but they had to account for DC and his crazy ass. So that opened things up for Foye to be in the role he needs to be, which is a spot up shooter, not a creator/driver/pg etc. It also helped open things up for Gordo to shoot and do his thing, and of course in the post where Al and Paul had a field day.

I firmly believe in DC and his style of play for this team. It does so much more than I think is realized, making everyone's jobs easier. He's the guy everyone loves to play with, and hate to play against. And every good team has one.

Burks too. He's the type of player that we need out there. He's like Mo, but....hmmm but does more of the little DC type things. I still dont think that he needs to start, but this is the 2nd game in a row were Corbin finally had the light bulb go on, and Burks played more mins than Tinsley and Watson. Amazing. I think Tinsely starting is just right, gets guys doing what they need to be doing, and then Burks can come in and start attacking. I really like these substitutions and roles right now. And with Burks and DC both showing how good they can be, I like Marv still coming back into the starting unit to provide his 3's, size and rebounding, but DC staying in the starting 5 at the 2, with Foye going to the bench for his offensive punch.

Through no fault of his own, Corbin is being shown what actually SHOULD be happening...

And then Josh Howard comes back & Corbin screws it all up ... oh wait, that was last year. Guess we will see if he's learned anything from his past mistakes. (Unfortunately, I doubt he has.)

See the difference between Marvin and Howard is that Marvin is actually a good player when he's healthy and he was never part of the problem. I have no problem with Marvin going back into the starting lineup and getting 25 minutes a game if he's 100%, but that's a big if, and my biggest concern is that those minutes will come from Carroll and Burks instead of Foye and Watson.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Through no fault of his own, Corbin is being shown what actually SHOULD be happening...

Well I gotta give Corbin some credit here. I've been as down on him as anybody but if I'm going ot hold him accountable for I believe are his poor choices I have to give him credit for his good ones. I'm still super dissapointed that it takes injuries to get Corbin to start doing things that really do work, but I have to admit that when he is forced into action he usually is making the right calls. Moving Hayward to the bench was a great move, puting Burks at the point with Foye and Hayward was a great move putting the big 3 out there was a great move. I think Corbin shows a great deal of creativity
and promise as a strategist at times, but I also feel like when his isn't faced with a crisis he seems to trust in things that aren't working while tinkering with things that are (the starting veteran lineup vs. the second unit for example).

So I'm not sure where I'm at with Corbin right now. I was super down on him, but he has once again shown that he's not beyond hope. He's still playing Foye too much, and who know's what will happen when Marvin comes back, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to give up on him yet.

I hear what you're saying, but I think its giving too much credit to him. I mean, what other choices did he have?? For one, everyone and the mother was clamoring for Burks to get minutes. The Hayward move has worked out great, butttt......I dont know know. I'm usually on a coaches side, but he hasn't shown much other than the " D'oh!! I should've known that would work!!" stuff....

TheMagnus wrote:

See the difference between Marvin and Howard is that Marvin is actually a good player when he's healthy and he was never part of the problem. I have no problem with Marvin going back into the starting lineup and getting 25 minutes a game if he's 100%, but that's a big if, and my biggest concern is that those minutes will come from Carroll and Burks instead of Foye and Watson.

I don't disagree at all. Just saying that Corbin's (short) track record says that he will go back to the same ol' same ol'.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Through no fault of his own, Corbin is being shown what actually SHOULD be happening...

Well I gotta give Corbin some credit here. I've been as down on him as anybody but if I'm going ot hold him accountable for I believe are his poor choices I have to give him credit for his good ones. I'm still super dissapointed that it takes injuries to get Corbin to start doing things that really do work, but I have to admit that when he is forced into action he usually is making the right calls. Moving Hayward to the bench was a great move, puting Burks at the point with Foye and Hayward was a great move putting the big 3 out there was a great move. I think Corbin shows a great deal of creativity
and promise as a strategist at times, but I also feel like when his isn't faced with a crisis he seems to trust in things that aren't working while tinkering with things that are (the starting veteran lineup vs. the second unit for example).

So I'm not sure where I'm at with Corbin right now. I was super down on him, but he has once again shown that he's not beyond hope. He's still playing Foye too much, and who know's what will happen when Marvin comes back, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to give up on him yet.

I hear what you're saying, but I think its giving too much credit to him. I mean, what other choices did he have?? For one, everyone and the mother was clamoring for Burks to get minutes. The Hayward move has worked out great, butttt......I dont know know. I'm usually on a coaches side, but he hasn't shown much other than the " D'oh!! I should've known that would work!!" stuff....

Couldn't agree more. All Corbin did was do what was pretty obvious when he had two starters go down. And, I don't necessarily think it was genius to move Hayward to 6th man, he was struggling starting and the bench needed more play making, (and still, I would like to see him start, not sure he would be struggling anymore). I also have a hard time seeing Foye start, period, Watson getting any minutes, Evans rotting at the end of the bench, and in my book not enough minutes for Kanter and until recently, same with Burks. I can't put this other "thing" on Corbin - that the Jazz are futilely chasing d an 8th seed this season instead of developing the players they intend to keep around - it is mostly the FO branding a product, but he is part of it. The Jazz's current win streak of two games is all about playing two really bad teams in a row and in the big picture they are hovering around 0.500 and will likely finish that way or lower and that will not get the 8th seed. the Jazz haven't suddenly gotten better with the line-up adjustments until proven this lineup can beat quality teams. I can come around again to my belief that Corbin is an average coach if he does in fact get this squad to the playoffs, and will find him above average if behind the scenes he is daily camping in Lindsey's office conjuring ways to move some personnel before the deadline with an eye not to be making the playoffs but to next year.

MTJazz wrote:

Couldn't agree more. All Corbin did was do what was pretty obvious when he had two starters go down. And, I don't necessarily think it was genius to move Hayward to 6th man, he was struggling starting and the bench needed more play making, (and still, I would like to see him start, not sure he would be struggling anymore). I also have a hard time seeing Foye start, period, Watson getting any minutes, Evans rotting at the end of the bench, and in my book not enough minutes for Kanter and until recently, same with Burks. I can't put this other "thing" on Corbin - that the Jazz are futilely chasing d an 8th seed this season instead of developing the players they intend to keep around - it is mostly the FO branding a product, but he is part of it. The Jazz's current win streak of two games is all about playing two really bad teams in a row and in the big picture they are hovering around 0.500 and will likely finish that way or lower and that will not get the 8th seed. the Jazz haven't suddenly gotten better with the line-up adjustments until proven this lineup can beat quality teams. I can come around again to my belief that Corbin is an average coach if he does in fact get this squad to the playoffs, and will find him above average if behind the scenes he is daily camping in Lindsey's office conjuring ways to move some personnel before the deadline with an eye not to be making the playoffs but to next year.

Two things here, I don't think chasing the playoffs and player development are mutually exclusive, nor do I think just playing youngsters puts them much further aheard than giving them measured minutes consistent with their performance.

The thing that drives me crazy is when playing the young players would actually help the team win but coaches insted turn to inferior vets on short term contracts, that makes me insane because it makes absolutely no sense.

That being said, I have yet to see good evidence that players who play more, younger, turn out better than their counterparts who don't. There are tons of examples of guys who got big minutes young and never improved, and tons of examples of players who rarely played (but performed well when they did) and then exploded when they got the minutes later on. In the aggregate I think for the most part players are going to develop into what they are almost independently of how much they play in games.

So bottom line is that I see clearing away good veterans like Millsap and Jefferson just to make space for inferior young players to play 30 minutes instead of 15 or 20 as a way to make your team worse in the short term without looking like you are trying to tank. That may be a viable strategy depending on how things go, but even if they did decide to dump all the vets and tank out the season, what is the reward? The 7th or 8th pick in one of the worst drafts in recent memory...yay. If that is the way they want to go it can certainly wait until the trade deadline.

Speaking of how things are going, I'd say of all of the teams not in the playoffs as of right now, the Jazz have to be the favorites to eventually secure a spot. With Love and Howard out for the T-Wolves and Lakers and the Trail Blazers facing a brutal second half schedule with no depth at all I'd say it's almost the Jazz to lose.

zero24gravity wrote:

And then Josh Howard comes back & Corbin screws it all up ... oh wait, that was last year. Guess we will see if he's learned anything from his past mistakes. (Unfortunately, I doubt he has.)

Carroll gambles too much and often gets burned for it. That's the other side of the coin that is Carroll's steals. Love his havoc, but it is hard to count on in the playoffs. Besides, it wouldn't have mattered what changes Corbin made. The Jazz were getting crushed that series regardless.

Mutangclan wrote:

I hear what you're saying, but I think its giving too much credit to him. I mean, what other choices did he have?? For one, everyone and the mother was clamoring for Burks to get minutes. The Hayward move has worked out great, butttt......I dont know know. I'm usually on a coaches side, but he hasn't shown much other than the " D'oh!! I should've known that would work!!" stuff....

"Everyone" definitely did not include me. Playing Foye was the obvious choice from the offseason up until he stopped shooting at a high clip. Corbin didn't know what this team was capable of until it played together for 20 or so games. The holes were obvious after no more than five, but that doesn't mean he should have panicked and tore it apart.