Gordon's watch

MTJazz wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

That said, Hayward really looked comfortable coming from the bench; if there's some competitive fire in him then he did find a way to hide it. And that's a concern if you're asking that guy to lead his teammates..

GH is now my favorite player with the Jazz because he has simply dedicated his bad self to become better every year. That puts him right next to Evans in the obvious commitment department on the current roster. Consider both damn good picks by the Jazz, but they aren't leaders. Despite his Butler heroics, where I assume he was a leader, its different in the big leagues. Leadership starts first in the NBA by game domination, being the best player on the team and vocal. He is the perfect Robin for the Batman stud the Jazz haven't put on the payroll yet.

Was John or karl a leader while here there first or second year? I'm not ready to write Gh off and a team leader next year. kid will need to raise his game on and off the floor. I for one believe he can become that go to player/leader.

Richardale wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

That said, Hayward really looked comfortable coming from the bench; if there's some competitive fire in him then he did find a way to hide it. And that's a concern if you're asking that guy to lead his teammates..

GH is now my favorite player with the Jazz because he has simply dedicated his bad self to become better every year. That puts him right next to Evans in the obvious commitment department on the current roster. Consider both damn good picks by the Jazz, but they aren't leaders. Despite his Butler heroics, where I assume he was a leader, its different in the big leagues. Leadership starts first in the NBA by game domination, being the best player on the team and vocal. He is the perfect Robin for the Batman stud the Jazz haven't put on the payroll yet.

Was John or karl a leader while here there first or second year? I'm not ready to write Gh off and a team leader next year. kid will need to raise his game on and off the floor. I for one believe he can become that go to player/leader.

You are dreaming on that. Stock-to-Malone was HOF shit. GH is no Stock or Malone, and if you haven't noticed none of his teammates so far are in his league and by year three are Stock or Malone special. Let us not wax dreamy with this outfit. Core Four: GH - gonna be really good. Kanter same. Favors? Meh. Defensive stud top end. Burks? Bust or decent starter. No glory days for these guys without some significant help. Best scenario is they become a no-name juggernaut. Good luck at that.

MTJazz wrote:

Richardale wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

That said, Hayward really looked comfortable coming from the bench; if there's some competitive fire in him then he did find a way to hide it. And that's a concern if you're asking that guy to lead his teammates..

GH is now my favorite player with the Jazz because he has simply dedicated his bad self to become better every year. That puts him right next to Evans in the obvious commitment department on the current roster. Consider both damn good picks by the Jazz, but they aren't leaders. Despite his Butler heroics, where I assume he was a leader, its different in the big leagues. Leadership starts first in the NBA by game domination, being the best player on the team and vocal. He is the perfect Robin for the Batman stud the Jazz haven't put on the payroll yet.

Was John or karl a leader while here there first or second year? I'm not ready to write Gh off and a team leader next year. kid will need to raise his game on and off the floor. I for one believe he can become that go to player/leader.

You are dreaming on that. Stock-to-Malone was HOF shit. GH is no Stock or Malone, and if you haven't noticed none of his teammates so far are in his league and by year three are Stock or Malone special. Let us not wax dreamy with this outfit. Core Four: GH - gonna be really good. Kanter same. Favors? Meh. Defensive stud top end. Burks? Bust or decent starter. No glory days for these guys without some significant help. Best scenario is they become a no-name juggernaut. Good luck at that.

John Stockton wasn't even John Stockton special until year 4 and age 25. Same with Karl Malone. And every member of the core 4 was younger than Stockton or Karl when they entered the league. Not saying they will turn into hall of famers, but at their age with their ability it's not impossible.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stockjo01&y1=1987&p2=malonka01&y2=1988&p3=haywago01&y3=2013&p4=kanteen01&y4=2013&p5=favorde01&y5=2013

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Richardale wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

That said, Hayward really looked comfortable coming from the bench; if there's some competitive fire in him then he did find a way to hide it. And that's a concern if you're asking that guy to lead his teammates..

GH is now my favorite player with the Jazz because he has simply dedicated his bad self to become better every year. That puts him right next to Evans in the obvious commitment department on the current roster. Consider both damn good picks by the Jazz, but they aren't leaders. Despite his Butler heroics, where I assume he was a leader, its different in the big leagues. Leadership starts first in the NBA by game domination, being the best player on the team and vocal. He is the perfect Robin for the Batman stud the Jazz haven't put on the payroll yet.

Was John or karl a leader while here there first or second year? I'm not ready to write Gh off and a team leader next year. kid will need to raise his game on and off the floor. I for one believe he can become that go to player/leader.

You are dreaming on that. Stock-to-Malone was HOF shit. GH is no Stock or Malone, and if you haven't noticed none of his teammates so far are in his league and by year three are Stock or Malone special. Let us not wax dreamy with this outfit. Core Four: GH - gonna be really good. Kanter same. Favors? Meh. Defensive stud top end. Burks? Bust or decent starter. No glory days for these guys without some significant help. Best scenario is they become a no-name juggernaut. Good luck at that.

John Stockton wasn't even John Stockton special until year 4 and age 25. Same with Karl Malone. And every member of the core 4 was younger than Stockton or Karl when they entered the league. Not saying they will turn into hall of famers, but at their age with their ability it's not impossible.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stockjo01&y1=1987&p2=malonka01&y2=1988&p3=haywago01&y3=2013&p4=kanteen01&y4=2013&p5=favorde01&y5=2013

While it is subjective, I did in fact watch John and Karl, live at the Salt Palace, in their early years and it was freaking obvious they were going to be special, well before year four. In years one and two in fact. Same with Tony Parker when I caught him in a pre-season game his rookie year killing the Jazz on drives. The stars are pretty obvious early.

MTJazz wrote:

While it is subjective, I did in fact watch John and Karl, live at the Salt Palace, in their early years and it was freaking obvious they were going to be special, well before year four. In years one and two in fact. Same with Tony Parker when I caught him in a pre-season game his rookie year killing the Jazz on drives. The stars are pretty obvious early.

I feel the same way about Favors, Kanter, and Hayward. At at 22, 21, and 20 years old (which is younger than either John or Karl were when they came into the league) it was very clear to me this year that they can all be something very special. Burks I'm no so sure about, he hasn't shown the same natural feel that the others have, but he's certainly got the tools.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

While it is subjective, I did in fact watch John and Karl, live at the Salt Palace, in their early years and it was freaking obvious they were going to be special, well before year four. In years one and two in fact. Same with Tony Parker when I caught him in a pre-season game his rookie year killing the Jazz on drives. The stars are pretty obvious early.

I feel the same way about Favors, Kanter, and Hayward. At at 22, 21, and 20 years old (which is younger than either John or Karl were when they came into the league) it was very clear to me this year that they can all be something very special. Burks I'm no so sure about, he hasn't shown the same natural feel that the others have, but he's certainly got the tools.

I was watching those same games back in the Salt Palace in the late 80s, and I didn't know Malone and/or Stockton were going to be something special until after that Lakers series in 1988. Stockton was looking like a good backup to Rickey Green, with potential to be a decent starter, while Malone was an exciting post scorer and defensive rebounder who couldn't hit free throws or anything outside of 10 feet. The difference between them and the current guys is that they were suddenly thrust into incredible responsibility at a relatively early point in their careers, Karl when AD was traded, and Stockton when it became apparent that Rickey Green's career was winding down abruptly.

As Magnus said, this current group is younger than Stockton and Karl were, none of them benefitted from a long college career. In addition, they have all been playing behind veterans who are in the prime of their careers. Let's give the young guns a chance next year to shine and show what they can do before passing a "they're not stars" death sentence. I, for one, need more data. Hopefully they get an ample chance to prove what they can do next year. Try and get a little more optimistic, this is an exciting time for the franchise, not a time to be depressed!

thejazzkickazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

While it is subjective, I did in fact watch John and Karl, live at the Salt Palace, in their early years and it was freaking obvious they were going to be special, well before year four. In years one and two in fact. Same with Tony Parker when I caught him in a pre-season game his rookie year killing the Jazz on drives. The stars are pretty obvious early.

I feel the same way about Favors, Kanter, and Hayward. At at 22, 21, and 20 years old (which is younger than either John or Karl were when they came into the league) it was very clear to me this year that they can all be something very special. Burks I'm no so sure about, he hasn't shown the same natural feel that the others have, but he's certainly got the tools.

I was watching those same games back in the Salt Palace in the late 80s, and I didn't know Malone and/or Stockton were going to be something special until after that Lakers series in 1988. Stockton was looking like a good backup to Rickey Green, with potential to be a decent starter, while Malone was an exciting post scorer and defensive rebounder who couldn't hit free throws or anything outside of 10 feet. The difference between them and the current guys is that they were suddenly thrust into incredible responsibility at a relatively early point in their careers, Karl when AD was traded, and Stockton when it became apparent that Rickey Green's career was winding down abruptly.

As Magnus said, this current group is younger than Stockton and Karl were, none of them benefitted from a long college career. In addition, they have all been playing behind veterans who are in the prime of their careers. Let's give the young guns a chance next year to shine and show what they can do before passing a "they're not stars" death sentence. I, for one, need more data. Hopefully they get an ample chance to prove what they can do next year. Try and get a little more optimistic, this is an exciting time for the franchise, not a time to be depressed!

I am a little pessimistic...until I see the new roster. The young guys just aren't ready to carry the team right now. That isn't to say that at least 3 of the 4 look to be very good players, maybe borderline allstars in the future. I think GH and Kanter have the highest ceiling, but I just don't see perennial all-star, carry the team greatness pending. As a refresher, Malone's first 3 years: 14.9 ppg 8.9 rb, 21.7 ppg 10.4 rb, 27.7 ppg 12 rb. Stock didn't blow up until his 4th year though it was pretty obvious he was the PG of the future while backing up The Fastest of Them All, dishing 5.1, 7.4 and 8.2 assists his first 3 years. I'd be happy to be wrong about the Core 4 and so far it makes plain good sense to extend those guys as very solid pieces. My main point is DL needs to bring in at least 2 more guys who are currently better players if the Jazz expect to see the playoffs given they will be losing Al, Sap and likely Mo. And at that, we saw how that level of talent worked out this year. I'm always going to be a Jazz fan and am already stoked to see what moves are made - get good now or aiming for being relevant in 2-3 years.

MTJazz wrote:

thejazzkickazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

While it is subjective, I did in fact watch John and Karl, live at the Salt Palace, in their early years and it was freaking obvious they were going to be special, well before year four. In years one and two in fact. Same with Tony Parker when I caught him in a pre-season game his rookie year killing the Jazz on drives. The stars are pretty obvious early.

I feel the same way about Favors, Kanter, and Hayward. At at 22, 21, and 20 years old (which is younger than either John or Karl were when they came into the league) it was very clear to me this year that they can all be something very special. Burks I'm no so sure about, he hasn't shown the same natural feel that the others have, but he's certainly got the tools.

I was watching those same games back in the Salt Palace in the late 80s, and I didn't know Malone and/or Stockton were going to be something special until after that Lakers series in 1988. Stockton was looking like a good backup to Rickey Green, with potential to be a decent starter, while Malone was an exciting post scorer and defensive rebounder who couldn't hit free throws or anything outside of 10 feet. The difference between them and the current guys is that they were suddenly thrust into incredible responsibility at a relatively early point in their careers, Karl when AD was traded, and Stockton when it became apparent that Rickey Green's career was winding down abruptly.

As Magnus said, this current group is younger than Stockton and Karl were, none of them benefitted from a long college career. In addition, they have all been playing behind veterans who are in the prime of their careers. Let's give the young guns a chance next year to shine and show what they can do before passing a "they're not stars" death sentence. I, for one, need more data. Hopefully they get an ample chance to prove what they can do next year. Try and get a little more optimistic, this is an exciting time for the franchise, not a time to be depressed!

I am a little pessimistic...until I see the new roster. The young guys just aren't ready to carry the team right now. That isn't to say that at least 3 of the 4 look to be very good players, maybe borderline allstars in the future. I think GH and Kanter have the highest ceiling, but I just don't see perennial all-star, carry the team greatness pending. As a refresher, Malone's first 3 years: 14.9 ppg 8.9 rb, 21.7 ppg 10.4 rb, 27.7 ppg 12 rb. Stock didn't blow up until his 4th year though it was pretty obvious he was the PG of the future while backing up The Fastest of Them All, dishing 5.1, 7.4 and 8.2 assists his first 3 years. I'd be happy to be wrong about the Core 4 and so far it makes plain good sense to extend those guys as very solid pieces. My main point is DL needs to bring in at least 2 more guys who are currently better players if the Jazz expect to see the playoffs given they will be losing Al, Sap and likely Mo. And at that, we saw how that level of talent worked out this year. I'm always going to be a Jazz fan and am already stoked to see what moves are made - get good now or aiming for being relevant in 2-3 years.

Came back after most the stuff i was thinking had allready been brought up. I knew i could count on the die hard jazz fans that see what i see. Well done my friends well done. now we sit back and watch them grow and see witch one want it most? I know we have a couple jems just gonna watch a couple years and see which two or three rise to the top?