Free fall in Jazz Land

OK, we've lost 6 of 7 and the Lakers are licking at our heals and by all appearances seems like they will send us to the lottery. Somehow the wheels have fallen off and this thread is beyond "It's Ty's fault." Yes, I think he is over his head, is a below average coach. But the players still have their pride and are on the floor. The FO is still smart. The roster is still full of at least 10+ guys who could find a solid role on any other team. We have two players, Sap and Al, who could start on a top 10 NBA team. We have another two guys, GH and Favors, who could probably start on a top 15 team. And then a bench mob of Kanter, DC, and Burks who could start on the lower half of the NBA field of teams. But alas, this is a likely lottery team?

To get the ball rolling I will throw out this:
1) PG matters. The Jazz are woefully understaffed there, especially with Williams being out for as long as he was ( and now looking like yes, he has been out and has a foot of rust on him).
2) Our coaching staff is so-so at best.
3) The mental parts of this team are flawed. Given their ability/talents, they can't rise on the road, they need home court to play at their best. What that flaw is I can't pin point but it is real.
4) Too many players need minutes so I'm guessing locker room vibe is not good. Somehow Denver has figured out how to play 10 guys every night and become the 4th seed in the west.
5) The Jazz don't have a stone cold player leader. Think about it. They don't, they just don't.

I keep trying to make this not about the coaching and leadership but I keep coming back to the concept that based on player personnel alone, Memphis, GS, Denver and Houston don't have jack on the Jazz, we should be on that level and in that hunt. As for the Lakers, everyone in the league knew they couldn't suck that bad forever given the Nash/Kobe/Howard/Gasol, which on paper is far superior to the Jazz.

Any thoughts on this? I am struggling for answers besides "Ty sucks", (which he doesn't necessarily but certainly appears to be failing with this season).

MTJazz wrote:

OK, we've lost 6 of 7 and the Lakers are licking at our heals and by all appearances seems like they will send us to the lottery. Somehow the wheels have fallen off and this thread is beyond "It's Ty's fault." Yes, I think he is over his head, is a below average coach. But the players still have their pride and are on the floor. The FO is still smart. The roster is still full of at least 10+ guys who could find a solid role on any other team. We have two players, Sap and Al, who could start on a top 10 NBA team. We have another two guys, GH and Favors, who could probably start on a top 15 team. And then a bench mob of Kanter, DC, and Burks who could start on the lower half of the NBA field of teams. But alas, this is a likely lottery team?

To get the ball rolling I will throw out this:
1) PG matters. The Jazz are woefully understaffed there, especially with Williams being out for as long as he was ( and now looking like yes, he has been out and has a foot of rust on him).
2) Our coaching staff is so-so at best.
3) The mental parts of this team are flawed. Given their ability/talents, they can't rise on the road, they need home court to play at their best. What that flaw is I can't pin point but it is real.
4) Too many players need minutes so I'm guessing locker room vibe is not good. Somehow Denver has figured out how to play 10 guys every night and become the 4th seed in the west.
5) The Jazz don't have a stone cold player leader. Think about it. They don't, they just don't.

I keep trying to make this not about the coaching and leadership but I keep coming back to the concept that based on player personnel alone, Memphis, GS, Denver and Houston don't have jack on the Jazz, we should be on that level and in that hunt. As for the Lakers, everyone in the league knew they couldn't suck that bad forever given the Nash/Kobe/Howard/Gasol, which on paper is far superior to the Jazz.

Any thoughts on this? I am struggling for answers besides "Ty sucks", (which he doesn't necessarily but certainly appears to be failing with this season).

Yes, Ty Corbin sucks. He has now ruined all the rhythm and balance that we finally were finding with Burks/Gordo/DC/Fav/Paul etc. He plays Marvin 27 minutes tonight, and yanks DC when he was playing great. All the substitutions are all jacked up. Burks only plays 13 minutes. Marvin plays the entire 3rd. Now it's Tinsley instead of Watson. This team can get ZERO continuity with Corbin making the substitutions.

It's a joke. And it's IS Corbin.

Mutangclan wrote:

It's a joke. And it's IS Corbin.

Yo, wait, you are jacking my thread! I'm looking for thoughts/ideas that don't end with "Corbin sucks." I agree with the fact he is over his head, but I am seriously fishing for some thoughts on what else might be going on. I listened to Locke's podcast today and he raised some interesting though un-fulfilling thoughts on the topic that got me thinking. It can't all be on the coach, can it? Seriously.

Dude, look at the talent on this team. It's sick. Tonight? Gordo and his skills were put in the wrong position all night. Burks? N/A. Millsap? N/A. Demarre Carroll, you know that Ty inserted because he brought so much energy finally? Nah, lets bench him after starting one game for a few minutes, and then tonight.

Corbin makes all the substitutions. And this guy, in just the last four losses, is 100% responsible for those substitutions and losses. 100%

(sorry, I'm hot. We can move this to FIRE CORBIN MT.....I just can't believe this team freefalling with Corbin steering.)

Mutangclan wrote:

Dude, look at the talent on this team. It's sick. Tonight? Gordo and his skills were put in the wrong position all night. Burks? N/A. Millsap? N/A. Demarre Carroll, you know that Ty inserted because he brought so much energy finally? Nah, lets bench him after starting one game for a few minutes, and then tonight.

Corbin makes all the substitutions. And this guy, in just the last four losses, is 100% responsible for those substitutions and losses. 100%

(sorry, I'm hot. We can move this to FIRE CORBIN MT.....I just can't believe this team freefalling with Corbin steering.)

So...can a bad coach make a good team suck? Or is this a case of good team who can't get it done, despite coaching decisions? Its the players, in the end, on the floor, who win or lose games. Right?

MTJazz wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Dude, look at the talent on this team. It's sick. Tonight? Gordo and his skills were put in the wrong position all night. Burks? N/A. Millsap? N/A. Demarre Carroll, you know that Ty inserted because he brought so much energy finally? Nah, lets bench him after starting one game for a few minutes, and then tonight.

Corbin makes all the substitutions. And this guy, in just the last four losses, is 100% responsible for those substitutions and losses. 100%

(sorry, I'm hot. We can move this to FIRE CORBIN MT.....I just can't believe this team freefalling with Corbin steering.)

So...can a bad coach make a good team suck? Or is this a case of good team who can't get it done, despite coaching decisions? Its the players, in the end, on the floor, who win or lose games. Right?

YEP.

Corbin is completely going away from what has been working. He did it last year, and now he's doing it again. Burks has been great. DC is and has been great. Gordo playing with Burks, Paul and Kanter has been great. Burks has been the backup PG. Now? Lets go away from all that. Have you noticed the combinations on the floor at the same time the last two games? It's absurd, and completely unbalanced and completely different.

It's the players at the end, who since the rotations have been so absurd all night, have been trying to get some sort of continuity, some type of rhythm. It's always an uphill battle with Corbin steering, because nobody is every comfortable. They never know when they're going to play, at what position, at what point in the game. It's stupid. Anybody who knows basketball, knows that it helps for guys to know when they're getting in the game. Corbin has f**ked that all up. Not only that, but now Mo Williams is back, and he hasn't even had the same starting lineup for these two games. How is Mo supposed to get any rhythm back when he's playing with 10 different guys, and 10 different combinations?? He can't.
And with the immense amount of talent we have, we're trying hard to stay in these games, but winning none of them. This team can overcome 25 obstacles, but once it gets into the 30's, thats just too much to ask.

I guarantee, GUARANTEE this team is tired of Corbin. All of the. Except for Marvin, who a day after saying he doesn't care about going to the bench, gets 27minutes. To the 9 that our best hustle energy guy got.

As much as I know people don't want to hear it, sometimes half of the problem is just bad luck. When you lose 5 games out of six on what are effectively last second shots you are having a stretch of ridiculously bad luck. Take tonight, I though the Jazz played pretty well, had a lead, bulls miss a shot, 50/50 ball gets batted around, falls into the bulls hands where they have an open man who makes the 3. The chances that all of those things happen that way is about 10%, and if just one of those things happens differently the Jazz get the ball back and win the game. Same story against the Bucks and the Cavs. Granted, in the Cavs game we gave away a lead and it never should have come down to that, but the fact is close games like this come down to luck as much as anything, and the Jazz are on one of the most unlucky streaks I have ever seen. I mean, the Jazz are 1-6 in their last 7 games, and their margin of victory is 0. The Jazz have lost 6 games by an average of 5 points, 4 of those games were 3 points of fewer. That is just ridiculous, stupid, bad luck. A rebound here and a made layup there and the Jazz are 4-3 in their last 7 instead of 1-6.

It's just massively disheartening.

Bottom line here for me MT is that nobody expected the Jazz to be a contender this year, so that in itself is an admission that the team is flawed. The Jazz front office knows it, we know it, everybody knows it.

What we were hoping for was a competitive team that could surprise some people, we wanted to see our young guys develop and mature and our vets play hard. For the most part those things are happening, the young guys are growing up before our eyes, the vets are inconsistent but are still giving what they have and being professionals. The problem is that for all of the good that is happening it's not translating to success on the court.

I think Jazz Nation is in a fairly irrational freak-out mode right now. And I actually think it is a shame that so many of the good things that are going on are getting lost in that. I've actually enjoyed watching these guys play for 90% of the last few games, this is the Jazz team I thought I would see before the season, competitive, versatile, fun to watch... they just can't close out these games.

The future still looks bright for the Jazz, it really does, and even this season isn't over yet. I really believe this team has the ability to make some stuff happen as we come down the stretch, they just need a little confidence, a little coaching, and a little luck.

Thats one way of looking at it........But are you really saying that you lose 5 games out of six on what are effectively last second shots you are having a stretch of ridiculously bad luck
????? And is it just the last six games of bad luck????

The other way of looking at it, is the same thing the players say: we missed that last shot, but it never should have come down to that. Its been that way for every game. And you know it. Crap players come in, or bad rotations, and lead is lost. These guys have been playing their hearts out, but it's always because they have to. Instead of playing the best players, and making sensible rotations. So it's always an uphill battle.
Gordon Hayward playing 17 straight minutes for example. The DC place in and yank. MILLSAP LAST NIGHT. Tinsley playing at all, and that was just after Watson just was. Why are either of them playing?? Can you answer that? No, because you've said they're the worst.
Marvin Williams says he doesn't care about going to the bench? And then Corbin starts him in the 3rd quarter and plays him 27mins after doing nothing different in the 1st half than DC? And DC was JUST put in the starting lineup last game? Man, I've never been a "fire" coach type, it's always been the players who need to get it done. But can you HONESTLY say that Corbin is putting them in a place to succeed?

An irrational freak out? How do you figure? Actually Mag, or anyone else please chime in, tell me what of these statements is untrue:*

1) Corbin has not learned from his mistakes all year, and continues to make the same ones.
2) Tinsley and Watson should not be on the court at all over Burks. Certainly because they're gone after this year 100%
3) Yanking DC after one game in the starting lineup was absurd. If nothing else, because he played well in the first half yesterday. It was a slap in DC face.
4) Millsap 20minutes and Burks 13 is losing basketball.
5) Mo Williams needs some consistency in the starting lineup to get re-acclimated and playing well.
6) Regardless of Marvins game yesterday, that was a bad-form coaching move, starting him the 3rd quarter. Al, Mo, Gordo all said they thought DC starting was a good idea.
7)Going 11 deep at this point, during this playoff fight, and with who will be back next year, is stupid. And losing basketball.
8.) For the second year in a row, during the most important time, he is going away from what was working.
9) Boozer played 43minutes, Millsap played 20 minutes. Thats how you win close games.
10) Thibodeau is a good coach. They only go 8 deep. They TOO weren't expected to be much this year, yet are right there because Thibodeau is smart.
11) Corbin is a terrible coach.
12) Matter of fact, thats the perfect example: Bulls v Jazz. You telling me the Jazz talent doesn't match up with the Bulls current talent? Bulls dont have a star, yet their coach is doing the right things, playing who should be played, giving them a chance to succeed. Not just "looking long term". Jazz should be doing the same thing the Bulls and Thibodeau is doing.
13) There is no room for mistakes or a feeling out period, as this team has fallen from a good 6th spot, and the Lakers are scorching hot right now and about to take the 8th spot.

Come on Magnus even the press is saying the same stuff. Way too many puppies and rainbows for the mess that Corbin is putting on the court. They looked all over the place last night.

*Mutang: 1-13, TRUE.

Here's some non-Ty-bashing...

Millsap didn't play much because Boozer was beating him up, and Favors was more effective. I would have been upset if Derek had only 20 minutes in that game. Al was as aggressive offensively as I can ever remember. He had at least four dunks, and none of those crappy fade away one handed shots. One could argue that Paul was the forth best big on the team vs Chicago.

Team continuity and rotations are going to be different with the addition of Mo. I like him fine, but the team didn't look good before his injury and now, over the past two games, the offense is off again. That's not a coincidence. Mo makes the team better on paper or if you are playing NBA Live, but so far hasn't helped this team in real life IMO.

zero24gravity wrote:

Team continuity and rotations are going to be different with the addition of Mo. I like him fine, but the team didn't look good before his injury and now, over the past two games, the offense is off again. That's not a coincidence. Mo makes the team better on paper or if you are playing NBA Live, but so far hasn't helped this team in real life IMO.

I agree, Zero, and these are the thoughts and insights I am fishing for. The team chemistry, (not how the players feel about each other), has felt awkward pretty much all season, with some exceptions when Mo was out and the patched together line-ups would hit a flow and reel off a bunch of wins in a row. I'm coming around to the opinion that one of the main flaws with the team is the starters aren't consistent and when a player or players are slumping there isn't a compensating effect like some other starter rising up and having a monster game. Without going into stats, my sense is the second unit has been pretty consistent beating up on the opposing team's second units and watching them at work they just seem to flow better, play off each other better than the starting unit.

I'm still fishing though...in my head there is a little voice that keeps saying, "The total team talent has not been well utilized," because yes, on paper, the Jazz should be a Western playoff team.

1) Corbin has not learned from his mistakes all year, and continues to make the same ones.

That's a funny statement coming from a fan that has changed many of his opinions of what those mistakes were all year. There are some things he hasn't changed or learned from, and some things he has, and the IRRATIONAL part is that at this point even the things he changes exactly according to what you thought he should do at this point you are calling failures. He's not going to win with you no matter what he does, and that is irrational.

2) Tinsley and Watson should not be on the court at all over Burks. Certainly because they're gone after this year 100%.

While I agree in general, last night Watson wasn't on the court over Burks (see point 1), and (finally) got a DNP last night. Tinsley has been absolutely great with the second unit this year, so it is easy to see why that would be worth going back too, even if I disagree with it.

3) Yanking DC after one game in the starting lineup was absurd. If nothing else, because he played well in the first half yesterday. It was a slap in DC face.

Ya, I agree. Not sure why DC didn't start the second half, but again that's the long view which you say Corbin shouldn't be worrying about right now, so was it the wrong call for this game? Marvin was playing great, he was a perfect match-up on Deng, if it was the other way around, and Marvin played decent in the first but got benched for DC who was playing great in the second half would you be complaining about his feelings?

4) Millsap 20 minutes and Burks 13 is losing basketball.

Normally I would absolutely agree on Millsap, but Favors was dominating the paint last night and Jefferson was fully engaged and dominating on the offensive end. Had no problem with the way it went down last night. Burks...meh, he had the worst +/- on the team. I look at from the opposite perspective, playing Mo Williams (1-7, 4 TO) and Randy Foye (0-4) 48 minutes is losing basketball, or at least was last night, but those aren't the guys you want benched for Burks so....

5) Mo Williams needs some consistency in the starting lineup to get re-acclimated and playing well.

ok...so this is about the halftime change again? You do realize that change could have been made to make him more comfortable, right? and been the "consistent" thing to do?

6) Regardless of Marvins game yesterday, that was a bad-form coaching move, starting him the 3rd quarter. Al, Mo, Gordo all said they thought DC starting was a good idea.

Agree here.

7)Going 11 deep at this point, during this playoff fight, and with who will be back next year, is stupid. And losing basketball.

Maybe.

8.) For the second year in a row, during the most important time, he is going away from what was working.

What? Your (and my) gripe all fricking year has been that he was sticking with what wasn't working, now he's making all sort of changes, is "all over the place", AND at the same time is going away from what was "working"?

The Jazz have never been better than 7th place all year, they have lost games with almost every starting lineup imaginable and with every player you and I think should be playing getting almost all of the minutes so what, exactly, was working? Do you think he should not be playing Mo Williams? Do you think he should go back to Marvin in the starting lineup? Do you think he should go back to playing the young guys at the end of games when the Jazz have LOST almost every close game they have finished?

9) Boozer played 43minutes, Millsap played 20 minutes. Thats how you win close games.

Boozer played 43 minutes because the He was playing well and Taj Gibson wasn't available. The bulls got lucky last night, they were playing a mid level Western Conference team, at home, and they got a lucky bounce, that's how they won that close game.

10) Thibodeau is a good coach. They only go 8 deep. They TOO weren't expected to be much this year, yet are right there because Thibodeau is smart.

While Thibodeau is smart, it is irrational to give a coach credit for something that he has little control over and he only does sometimes because he has to, especially when what he normally does is exaclty what you are criticizing Corbin for. The Bulls only had 10 healthy players, and they usually run 10 deep when they are healthy, and Thibs has draw heat for that too.

11) Corbin is a terrible coach.

Ok.


12) Matter of fact, thats the perfect example: Bulls v Jazz. You telling me the Jazz talent doesn't match up with the Bulls current talent? Bulls dont have a star, yet their coach is doing the right things, playing who should be played, giving them a chance to succeed. Not just "looking long term". Jazz should be doing the same thing the Bulls and Thibodeau is doing.

It absolutely does. They make a great comparison, injury problems, no stars but good depth (when healthy)....

Bulls record going into the game 34-27, Jazz record 32-29, magin of victory +1.1 for the Bulls and -0.1 for the Jazz. Bulls playing at home. Result? A well fought game that comes down to a last second shot.

Sure looks like the two teams are doing pretty much the same thing to me....

13) There is no room for mistakes or a feeling out period, as this team has fallen from a good 6th spot, and the Lakers are scorching hot right now and about to take the 8th spot.

There really isn't a choice on the "feeling out period" the Jazz are trying to work Mo back into the lineup, they have had a spate of injuries that have showcased young players that deserve to play made it so there hasn't been a consistent rotation in several weeks, and we all feel like the rotations we had before that weren't really working.

So which is it? do you want it to go back to the way it was for the stretch run? or do you want Corbin to make some changes to get the young guys more involved?

Come on Magnus even the press is saying the same stuff. Way too many puppies and rainbows for the mess that Corbin is putting on the court. They looked all over the place last night.

And they were one play away from a win against an Eastern Conference playoff team on the road.

*Mutang: 1-13.... debatable.[/quote]

TheMagnus wrote:

Bottom line here for me MT is that nobody expected the Jazz to be a contender this year, so that in itself is an admission that the team is flawed. The Jazz front office knows it, we know it, everybody knows it.

Care to elaborate on this? What are these flaws? How did "everyone" who saw the Jazz as a lotto team see something people like me didn't? I mean really, they had, on paper, probably the best paint rotation in the league starting the season. They had young guys who were still obviously on their way up, (which proved true in droves). They were highly competently staffed 10 deep. Granted, as the season began it didn't look like the team was going to go deep but they sure as hell looked capable of grabbing the 6th seed. And as far as people not seeing the Jazz making the playoffs, I doubt anyone saw GSW and Houston making them.

zero24gravity wrote:

Here's some non-Ty-bashing...

Millsap didn't play much because Boozer was beating him up, and Favors was more effective. I would have been upset if Derek had only 20 minutes in that game. Al was as aggressive offensively as I can ever remember. He had at least four dunks, and none of those crappy fade away one handed shots. One could argue that Paul was the forth best big on the team vs Chicago.

Team continuity and rotations are going to be different with the addition of Mo. I like him fine, but the team didn't look good before his injury and now, over the past two games, the offense is off again. That's not a coincidence. Mo makes the team better on paper or if you are playing NBA Live, but so far hasn't helped this team in real life IMO.

I have to agree with Corbin going away from the things that has been working if you look at the games played with Mo back the rotations have been changed in the back court and the Jazz has lost their Chemistry that they had going with the back court players and that is why they are losing these close games. In these games the line-up and rotations have all been changed in every game with different people in and out of the line-up, how can these guys play at their best with this kind thing going on when they are on the road to top it off. I have to say that I think a lot of what is happening in these losses fall's on the coach and the moves he has been making they are killing this team and their playoff hopes.

TheMagnus wrote:

1) Corbin has not learned from his mistakes all year, and continues to make the same ones.

That's a funny statement coming from a fan that has changed many of his opinions of what those mistakes were all year. There are some things he hasn't changed or learned from, and some things he has, and the IRRATIONAL part is that at this point even the things he changes exactly according to what you thought he should do at this point you are calling failures. He's not going to win with you no matter what he does, and that is irrational.

I think thats quite the exaggeration now isn't it, changed MANY of my opinions? Not quite. I looked at it early on as Foye, and then watching the team, realized it was Marvin that is the problem and that was December. Haven't changed it since.
And changed exactly according to what I thought?? What are you reading? I said DC for Marvin, thats been my huge thing. Corbin hasn't even done that hardly at all. He did it for a few short minutes in the first game, and again the second NOT including the second half in Chicago. Not even CLOSE to what I've been shouting for. Also would love to know what Ty has learned from and changed this season.

3) Yanking DC after one game in the starting lineup was absurd. If nothing else, because he played well in the first half yesterday. It was a slap in DC face.

Ya, I agree. Not sure why DC didn't start the second half, but again that's the long view which you say Corbin shouldn't be worrying about right now, so was it the wrong call for this game? Marvin was playing great, he was a perfect match-up on Deng, if it was the other way around, and Marvin played decent in the first but got benched for DC who was playing great in the second half would you be complaining about his feelings?

Just the fact that Marvin started the 3rd was dumb, and nobody knew he'd finally score some points. We both have been hollering for DC to start. Were you meaning start and play half the minutes? Because I wasn't. Play DC. F. Dont LOWER his minutes after putting him in the starting lineup. Thats 1 step forward and two steps back. Doesn't even make sense.


5) Mo Williams needs some consistency in the starting lineup to get re-acclimated and playing well.

ok...so this is about the halftime change again? You do realize that change could have been made to make him more comfortable, right? and been the "consistent" thing to do?

Yes it is. In Mo's first game back he starts with DC. It looked alright. Same as second game, great. But then halftime switch again. So not only does it switch that starting unit, it messes up all the other rotations. Also, Ty spoke of moving DC into the starting lineup strictly to run with Mo, which happened a few times. So no, I dont think that change was made for Mo to be more comfortable.

8.) For the second year in a row, during the most important time, he is going away from what was working.

What? Your (and my) gripe all fricking year has been that he was sticking with what wasn't working, now he's making all sort of changes, is "all over the place", AND at the same time is going away from what was "working"?

What were you hollering for? Me, it was double DC, no Marv. Keep sticking with Burks, make sure he's the backup PG when Mo back. Keep up with those minutes for those guys, lower or end the Marv/Tinsley/Watson minutes. Corbin can't even decide on Watson or Tinsley, and it should be Burks. Ty, once again changed what wasn't working, but then also changed what was by giving DC/Burks and even Paul LESS minutes. It's simple, remove the starting PG and put in Mo. Remove the starting SF and put in DC. Leave everything else as it is

The Jazz have never been better than 7th place all year, they have lost games with almost every starting lineup imaginable and with every player you and I think should be playing getting almost all of the minutes so what, exactly, was working? Do you think he should not be playing Mo Williams? Do you think he should go back to Marvin in the starting lineup? Do you think he should go back to playing the young guys at the end of games when the Jazz have LOST almost every close game they have finished?

Before this weekend, the Jazz started Mo/Foye/DC/Al/Paul for 3 games that they lost all 3. All were away, it was the Clippers/Houston and one other I can't remember. All 3 were good teams. Play Mo, dont play Marvin. Keep Burks minutes up there like it was with him contributing. Start DC, and keep him getting those 20 plus minutes. And lastly, I didn't say anything about the end of the game.


*Mutang: 1-13.... OPINION.

[/quote]

Replied above. But after all this, so, Magnus, you then are fine with all Corbins changes, and feel good about it? Best of luck Utah Jazz?

Mutangclan wrote:

Replied above. But after all this, so, Magnus, you then are fine with all Corbins changes, and feel good about it? Best of luck Utah Jazz?

I think I said somewhere that I have actually enjoyed watching the Jazz for the most part over this recent rough patch, and I feel like this is more like the team I thought we were going to get when the year started, I think they've been playing fairly well for the most part and I have been super excited by the emergence of the young players. I think Corbin has proven to be a marginal Coach at best, but this isn't all on him, and he's not in an easy situation.

I'm not sure what I'm hoping for at this point, but I know that I would really like to see this team get it together and start winning games again. What I don't want to see is the team quitting on each other and on Corbin. You know I don't agree with a lot of what Corbin does, I don't think Watson should play at all, I think DC should get more minutes, I think Corbin is a terrible x's and o's guy, and I think his management of the Jazz rotations has been poor, but all that stuff kind of takes a back seat for me when I watch the games. All I really want as a fan right now is to see whoever is on the court playing their ass off trying got get this team to the playoffs. How much Corbin helps or hurts that effort is something that I have decided to stop worrying about, because it's really ruining the enjoyment I get from watching Jazz basketball.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Replied above. But after all this, so, Magnus, you then are fine with all Corbins changes, and feel good about it? Best of luck Utah Jazz?

I think I said somewhere that I have actually enjoyed watching the Jazz for the most part over this recent rough patch, and I feel like this is more like the team I thought we were going to get when the year started, I think they've been playing fairly well for the most part and I have been super excited by the emergence of the young players. I think Corbin has proven to be a marginal Coach at best, but this isn't all on him, and he's not in an easy situation.

I'm not sure what I'm hoping for at this point, but I know that I would really like to see this team get it together and start winning games again. What I don't want to see is the team quitting on each other and on Corbin. You know I don't agree with a lot of what Corbin does, but all that stuff kind of takes a back seat for me when I watch the games. All I really want as a fan right now is to see whoever is on the court playing their ass off trying got get this team to the playoffs. How much Corbin helps or hurts that effort is something that I have decided to stop worrying about, because it's really ruining the enjoyment I get from watching Jazz basketball.

Obviously I'm the same. And I'm probably pretty close to throwing my hands up in the air at this point anyway.

And thats my point: I love, LOVE watching Mo/Gordo/DC/Burks/Al/Fav/Paul/Kanter play. Love it. And they're our best players and ALSO are our future. There is NO point in playing Tinsley/Watson or Marvin. I dont mind Foye getting 18, 20 minutes. When we are falling out of the playoffs, why would Tyrone Corbin play ANYONE other than our best 8 or 9 players? I dont understand his rationale, and I look at him as the same coach as Smart in Sac.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Bottom line here for me MT is that nobody expected the Jazz to be a contender this year, so that in itself is an admission that the team is flawed. The Jazz front office knows it, we know it, everybody knows it.

Care to elaborate on this? What are these flaws? How did "everyone" who saw the Jazz as a lotto team see something people like me didn't? I mean really, they had, on paper, probably the best paint rotation in the league starting the season. They had young guys who were still obviously on their way up, (which proved true in droves). They were highly competently staffed 10 deep. Granted, as the season began it didn't look like the team was going to go deep but they sure as hell looked capable of grabbing the 6th seed. And as far as people not seeing the Jazz making the playoffs, I doubt anyone saw GSW and Houston making them.

Well nobody really saw the Lakers struggling this bad, and the Timberwolves were almost universally considered a playoff team, so somebody had to take their place.

I didn't see a single "expert" that had the Jazz higher than 6th. If I remember correctly ESPN's preseason prediction panel unanimously pegged the Jazz 4th in the Northwest division and finishing between 8th and 10th in the west. I think, and still think, that those guys did not appreciate the level of talent in our young players, and the ability of Al and Paul to keep the team consistently performing throughout the year.

More than that though, my statement was a general one. I recall KOC and Lindsey stating before the season that they still felt like this team had a ways to go and that they didn't think they were contenders yet. If contending is the goal, then an admission that you are shot of that is an admission that your current product is flawed.

Why did they think that? I think they new that the guard rotation was simply not good enough. At the beginning of the season I think Hayward and Mo were probably the only players in positions 1-3 that would be a regular rotation players for a contender, and neither of them were real difference makers. Now, even with the emergence of Burks and Carroll, that is still basically true, especially since that emergence was basically offset by poor showings from Marvin and Foye. The Jazz have a really nice group of role player caliber young players on the wings, who are still young enough to develop into something special, but aren't quite there yet.

My personal feelings on it were that in addition to the problems on the wings, the Jazz could never really be a contender with Al Jefferson at C, and I still basically feel that way. I just don't believe that you can build a contending team around a Center that is only slightly above average in his offensive efficiency and who doesn't protect the paint defensively.

Also, don't forget the fact that while this has been a rough patch, the stat heads will tell you that the Jazz recent 1-6 record looks closer to 3-4 or 4-3 if you take away the final scores and just look at team vs. opposition performance. So they aren't playing as bad as it seems and there is still a decent chance that they make the playoffs. The Lakers schedule form here on out isn't that much easier than the Jazz and they have REALLY struggled to beat the dreggs of the NBA, needing massive comebacks to beat Toronto and New Orleans, so from my vantage point the Lakers are really not any better a team than the Jazz right now.

Lots of interesting and hopefully therapeutic points raised here. It IS possible for multiple people to be correct, especially when the points they are raising are not neatly lined up in logical opposition.

As is the case here.

a) Yes, we can say Corbin has done a bad job, or, more accurately, that the things he has done (for which I am certain he had reasons and reasonable ones at that), have not worked out very well. And I haven't been a fan of his "No Substitutions For the Last 20 Minutes" Rule. but other than being a little unsophisticated, I don't see the Jazz offense or defense being awful, nor has he made too many glaring late game errors. But sure, he hasn't helped things.

and

b) The Jazz, for the most part, have played pretty damn well. There may be a degree second-guessing, and a bit of "Our guys are great, THEY wouldn't lose these games must be the coach!", but there's also a soupcon* of cognitive dissonance around the fact that while a WIN is 100% good, a total and unequivocal and binary VICTORY (and a loss the corresponding total and complete, "0% good" negative), the GAME ITSELF is the result of 480 minutes of complex, interdependent effort, and if that result shows one team to be approximately 1% better than the other, that is far different than the black/white, win/loss binary condition. The latter view means that ANY basket made instead of missed, for the losing team, would show the THEM team to be 1% better. So there really IS something to the "bad luck" view. However bad Corbin's work as coach, very little has separated the Jazz and their opponents.

c) Ultimately, while I have been critical of Corbin, the players play the games and the coaches are convenient scapegoats when the guys on our team, our guys, let us down. And that's flat out what happened last night. The players Corbin put on the floor were good enough to win, and they didn't freaking do it.

We got out-hustled. We got outworked!! We had the victory and let them kick sand in our face, take the victory away from us, and walk off with our girlfriend. And that was all, entirely and completely, on the players. We weren't tough, we didn't fight, and when all the 50/50 balls go to one team, that team should win.

That's what I hated about last night's game, and a couple of others in this bad stretch-we played weak and gutless when we could have won by the simple expedient of PLAYING HARDER**. 21 freaking offensive rebounds and innumerable loose balls translated into extra possessions for the Bulls last night. THAT'S your loss, right there.

Maybe that comes with experience. Anyway, Mu is definitely right, and Mags is almost always right, and there's still room in there to be disappointed in the players themselves.

*-yes, I know this needs what us "wordologists' call a "c-with-a-squiggly-thing-on-it" (that's the technical term), but when I asked the word if it really needed that, it just surrendered, so...

**-and don't say "YOU couldn't do it!" or "They played a lot of minutes!" or other excuses...fact is, ONE team made clutch shots, got offensive boards and hustled for loose balls. So SOMEBODY can do it.

Tell me with a straight face that Corbin has not lost the team...

outerspacefan wrote:

Tell me with a straight face that Corbin has not lost the team...

Well, you gotta wonder what is going on. That was a HORRIBLE performance by the players. The Knicks were going all Globe Trotters on them, trick shots, goofing, they had the Jazz showing their white underbelly half way through the second quarter. Where is the pride? If the Jazz don't correct out of this tail spin, like pronto, the franchise is going to lose all the casual fans. Hell, I'm having a hard time giving a rats azz right now. Losing to the Bucks and Bulls was tolerable, they were in the game and fighting, but this stands next to the Houston debacle as season defining evidence of serious team dysfunction.

outerspacefan wrote:

Tell me with a straight face that Corbin has not lost the team...

https://jazznation.forumotion.com/t510p15-gts-utah-new-york-3-9-13

Mutangclan wrote:

What else is new. I'm not going to waste you guys eyes reading my same rants. This was the culmination of the last two months.


Something new though I saw tonight: Gordon Hayward, Mo Williams, Al Jefferson and Derrick Favors all had the same look on their faces; it was that they were tired of Corbins direction. Go back and look..... I believe that Corbin has lost this team.

Well, looks like I beat you by a few minutes with the EXACT same thought Outerspaceman

I played on alot of teams, with a handful of different coaches, and although it's the NBA, there was something recognizable on those guys faces last night. And I really believe it was they were finally tired of Corbins "coaching". Those guys are not a bunch of punks, they're all collectively really good people the organization has drafted. But that was very recognizable man, at least on those core 4 guys I mentioned. And I'd include DC, though he would never show it. And actually, I'm sure you guys saw it the last two games on Pauls face too.
For months they've tired of the playing of the wrong guys, at the wrong times etc. They're just tired of it.
I'm not sure what it's going to take, or if it could be helped.
But it's my opinion that Corbin is not the man for the job, at all. Completely out of his element and the guys are just tired of it.

I started wondering the same thing, about losing the team, last night. But even if the players aren't happy, they still have to have enough pride to play better. Burks was the only player (maybe Kanter / Carroll) that seemed to give a damn.... and that's not OK.

MTJazz wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

It's a joke. And it's IS Corbin.

Yo, wait, you are jacking my thread! I'm looking for thoughts/ideas that don't end with "Corbin sucks." I agree with the fact he is over his head, but I am seriously fishing for some thoughts on what else might be going on. I listened to Locke's podcast today and he raised some interesting though un-fulfilling thoughts on the topic that got me thinking. It can't all be on the coach, can it? Seriously.

This team has too much talent to not make the playoff's, if they don't I honestly feel it's 85% on Corbin and the FO and the other 15% on the players not nuttin' up. My problem is that guys like Carroll and Burks can't just decide they are going in and Marv is sitting out. Right now this team doesn't know if it's coming or going and the team leaders aren't leading, Mo' isn't on the same page as the rest of the team, Foyes game has slipped, Tinsley and Watson are so hot and cold, now mostly cold, that in my mind it wouldn't hurt one bit to start and give most of the minutes to the core plus DC and let the others EARN their minutes.
Ultimately Corbin is on the hook as the head coach and he has had a lot of limitations but he has also made some really dumb calls.

MTJazz wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

Tell me with a straight face that Corbin has not lost the team...

Well, you gotta wonder what is going on. That was a HORRIBLE performance by the players. The Knicks were going all Globe Trotters on them, trick shots, goofing, they had the Jazz showing their white underbelly half way through the second quarter. Where is the pride? If the Jazz don't correct out of this tail spin, like pronto, the franchise is going to lose all the casual fans. Hell, I'm having a hard time giving a rats azz right now. Losing to the Bucks and Bulls was tolerable, they were in the game and fighting, but this stands next to the Houston debacle as season defining evidence of serious team dysfunction.

I'm far from a casual fan, but I couldn't even bring myself to watch last night. I turned it on watched the first quarter and told my wife F it lets go see a movie. I know you have to try to look beyond coaching, but the fact is outside of the Spurs, Lakers, thunder and Clippers, we have more talent on this team than any other west coast team.

The players on this team don't know their role outside of Paul and Al, because their role is always changing. Corbin is playing favorites with the Vets at the expense of wins and experience for the young guys.

The part that is depressing for me is I keep hearing media guys saying that Corbin is doing a good job of mixing young guys and vets! Makes you wonder if they really believe that or if they are just trying to stay on Corbins good side. I disparately hope the front office doesn't see it the same way.

Our starting back court has along with the small forward position has been getting outscored by 20+ regularly and sometimes much much more.

I have never been the kind of guy to rail against a coach, because I know they know more about basketball than I ever will, Even when Sloan was being stubron and sticking to rotations that didn't make much sense to me, I still knew he was going to get the most out of his team, but this has gotten to the point of being stupid.

I took Bell and CJs statements at the end of last season as being sour grapes, but I think there are going to be more jabs at Corbin from out going players this off season. How could there not be?

I get that he wants to get as many wins as possible and that's why he is playing vets, but if he would have been playing more of DC, Burks, Kanter and Favors at the start of the season, those guys would be much better equipped to help with a late season push than they are now.

rorybreaker wrote:

This team has too much talent to not make the playoff's, if they don't I honestly feel it's 85% on Corbin and the FO and the other 15% on the players not nuttin' up. My problem is that guys like Carroll and Burks can't just decide they are going in and Marv is sitting out. Right now this team doesn't know if it's coming or going and the team leaders aren't leading, Mo' isn't on the same page as the rest of the team, Foyes game has slipped, Tinsley and Watson are so hot and cold, now mostly cold, that in my mind it wouldn't hurt one bit to start and give most of the minutes to the core plus DC and let the others EARN their minutes.
Ultimately Corbin is on the hook as the head coach and he has had a lot of limitations but he has also made some really dumb calls.

Exactly.