Free fall in Jazz Land

MTJazz wrote:

One can only hope that Mags "auto-correct" text message whenever the second worst coach in the league is named, proves prophetic!

For the record, "Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013)" is my baby. I can only hope and pray that it is a true statement.

I predict something like that ( undesrving bencuing chemisry issues)in the begin of season based on Burk sample - and most of you were against that. But.

But even I didn't expect that this tendency will go to such enormous proportion. Now I'm sure that TC has some mental problems... has to see doctor, start taking pills, go for nice vacation to some scenic nature trails&camps

vryadli wrote:

I predict something like that ( undesrving bencuing chemisry issues)in the begin of season based on Burk sample - and most of you were against that. But.

But even I didn't expect that this tendency will go to such enormous proportion. Now I'm sure that TC has some mental problems... has to see doctor, start taking pills, go for nice vacation to some scenic nature trails&camps

I don't think it was most, just mostly me. And I still don't think this is entirely a chemistry issue as much as a "playing bad players results in losing more games" thing, but I give you the props for identifying the rotations as being such a big issue so early on.

This may be bad timing, but I'd like to spread some blame around and say a few words on Ty's behalf.

First of all I think we should recognize what an incredibly, and really exceptionally, difficult situation Ty has been in pretty much ever since he has been a Head Coach. He came into to the job filling the shoes of a living legend who quit mid season because he could deal with the players disfunction any more. The franchise centerpeice was promptly traded, completeing a turnover of over 3/4 of the roster from the year before. Then instead of getting those guys together, they got locked out, leaving him with almost no training camp and a compressed season. This year he has been forced to coach a team that mixes capable veterans with up-and-comming young players playing the same positions, a hugely difficult task that has destroyed many a good coach, first in the court of public opinion, then in the locker room, then in the front office.

And speaking of the front office, I posted a bit on the summer of 2010 earlier in this thread, but let's quickly recap the murderers row of bad decisions that have lead us to this point...

-Giving up Boozer, Koufos, and a protected first round pick for Al Jefferson
-Giving up Wesley Matthews (5 yrs/32 Mil) and/or Kyle Korver (3 yrs/15 Mil) for Raja Bell (3 years/10 mil)
-Signing Josh Howard (1 yr/3 mil)
-Trading Devin Harris for Marvin Williams which led to...
-Deciding Mo Williams, Jamaal Tinsley, and Earl Watson was "good enough" at PG.

These range from "head scratching sideways" to "stunningly bad" moves in hindsight, and outside of the draft and the D-Will trade represent 90% of the work the FO has done in the last 3 years.


So I guess I've got a little more pitty for Ty, I really don't think he could win wiht that many cards stacked against him, but regardless of the pitty, at this point it is time for a change.

TheMagnus wrote:

This may be bad timing, but I'd like to spread some blame around and say a few words on Ty's behalf.

First of all I think we should recognize what an incredibly, and really exceptionally, difficult situation Ty has been in pretty much ever since he has been a Head Coach. He came into to the job filling the shoes of a living legend who quit mid season because he could deal with the players disfunction any more. The franchise centerpeice was promptly traded, completeing a turnover of over 3/4 of the roster from the year before. Then instead of getting those guys together, they got locked out, leaving him with almost no training camp and a compressed season. This year he has been forced to coach a team that mixes capable veterans with up-and-comming young players playing the same positions, a hugely difficult task that has destroyed many a good coach, first in the court of public opinion, then in the locker room, then in the front office.

And speaking of the front office, I posted a bit on the summer of 2010 earlier in this thread, but let's quickly recap the murderers row of bad decisions that have lead us to this point...

-Giving up Boozer, Koufos, and a protected first round pick for Al Jefferson
-Giving up Wesley Matthews (5 yrs/32 Mil) and/or Kyle Korver (3 yrs/15 Mil) for Raja Bell (3 years/10 mil)
-Signing Josh Howard (1 yr/3 mil)
-Trading Devin Harris for Marvin Williams which led to...
-Deciding Mo Williams, Jamaal Tinsley, and Earl Watson was "good enough" at PG.

These range from "head scratching sideways" to "stunningly bad" moves in hindsight, and outside of the draft and the D-Will trade represent 90% of the work the FO has done in the last 3 years.


So I guess I've got a little more pitty for Ty, I really don't think he could win wiht that many cards stacked against him, but regardless of the pitty, at this point it is time for a change.

I dunno, Mags. A lot of those moves are only bad in hindsight, and I really don't value second-guessing.

Nobody thought Devin Harris was the answer at PG. And he wasn't. Would this team be better, or even very different, if we still had Devin and he'd been injured for 40 games? I thought Mo would be better, but he hasn't had a good year. Was that predictable?? Probably not.

Same with Marvin. He hasn't even been as "good" as the disappointing-for-a-guy-drafted-ahead-of-Chris Paul career he had in Atlanta. Was that predictable, other than guessing that anyone playing with Al Jefferson will play worse than they did when not playing with him?

The Matthews case has been hashed out over and over and the FO was just put in a bad spot there.

Boozer should NOT have been signed to the contract he wanted and he was not traded for Al Jefferson. The Jefferson acquisition was lauded as a "steal" at the time. And while Jefferson's deficiencies were pretty well known, his subtle negative influence on other players and team performance was not quite figured out.

Letting Korver go was the most glaring, not-in-hindsight error on the list. Dude was a contributor, a good guy and fit into what the Jazz are trying to do. Bad mistake not signing him.

Josh Howard? Yeah, a mistake. His game didn't fit the Jazz very well and then there's the whole "competely washed up" thing.

The PG situation? Yeah, that was probably wishful thinking and not just in hindsight. Should've gotten a better, solid, PG2. Jarret Jack, anyone?

So it's about half error and half "things that just didn't work out".

Also, you can't just write off the acquisition of Favors and DC, and drafting Hayward, Kanter, Burks and Evans as nothing. That's some good work there, has to offset some of the questionable moves.

But you make a good case that both the sequence of events and the construction of the roster have been challenging for a new NBA coach. We can sympathize with Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013)'s situation, but the bottom line is that Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) has failed the challenge. Too stubborn, too committed to things that "SHOULD" work, even after seeing they are, in fact NOT working, too respectful of veterans who have "earned" playing time, not by their PLAY but by their SENIORITY.

Hopefully, he'll have smoother sailing in his next coaching position.

Trollificus wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

This may be bad timing, but I'd like to spread some blame around and say a few words on Ty's behalf.

First of all I think we should recognize what an incredibly, and really exceptionally, difficult situation Ty has been in pretty much ever since he has been a Head Coach. He came into to the job filling the shoes of a living legend who quit mid season because he could deal with the players disfunction any more. The franchise centerpeice was promptly traded, completeing a turnover of over 3/4 of the roster from the year before. Then instead of getting those guys together, they got locked out, leaving him with almost no training camp and a compressed season. This year he has been forced to coach a team that mixes capable veterans with up-and-comming young players playing the same positions, a hugely difficult task that has destroyed many a good coach, first in the court of public opinion, then in the locker room, then in the front office.

And speaking of the front office, I posted a bit on the summer of 2010 earlier in this thread, but let's quickly recap the murderers row of bad decisions that have lead us to this point...

-Giving up Boozer, Koufos, and a protected first round pick for Al Jefferson
-Giving up Wesley Matthews (5 yrs/32 Mil) and/or Kyle Korver (3 yrs/15 Mil) for Raja Bell (3 years/10 mil)
-Signing Josh Howard (1 yr/3 mil)
-Trading Devin Harris for Marvin Williams which led to...
-Deciding Mo Williams, Jamaal Tinsley, and Earl Watson was "good enough" at PG.

These range from "head scratching sideways" to "stunningly bad" moves in hindsight, and outside of the draft and the D-Will trade represent 90% of the work the FO has done in the last 3 years.


So I guess I've got a little more pitty for Ty, I really don't think he could win wiht that many cards stacked against him, but regardless of the pitty, at this point it is time for a change.

I dunno, Mags. A lot of those moves are only bad in hindsight, and I really don't value second-guessing.

Nobody thought Devin Harris was the answer at PG. And he wasn't. Would this team be better, or even very different, if we still had Devin and he'd been injured for 40 games? I thought Mo would be better, but he hasn't had a good year. Was that predictable?? Probably not.

Same with Marvin. He hasn't even been as "good" as the disappointing-for-a-guy-drafted-ahead-of-Chris Paul career he had in Atlanta. Was that predictable, other than guessing that anyone playing with Al Jefferson will play worse than they did when not playing with him?

The Matthews case has been hashed out over and over and the FO was just put in a bad spot there.

Boozer should NOT have been signed to the contract he wanted and he was not traded for Al Jefferson. The Jefferson acquisition was lauded as a "steal" at the time. And while Jefferson's deficiencies were pretty well known, his subtle negative influence on other players and team performance was not quite figured out.

Letting Korver go was the most glaring, not-in-hindsight error on the list. Dude was a contributor, a good guy and fit into what the Jazz are trying to do. Bad mistake not signing him.

Josh Howard? Yeah, a mistake. His game didn't fit the Jazz very well and then there's the whole "competely washed up" thing.

The PG situation? Yeah, that was probably wishful thinking and not just in hindsight. Should've gotten a better, solid, PG2. Jarret Jack, anyone?

So it's about half error and half "things that just didn't work out".

Also, you can't just write off the acquisition of Favors and DC, and drafting Hayward, Kanter, Burks and Evans as nothing. That's some good work there, has to offset some of the questionable moves.

But you make a good case that both the sequence of events and the construction of the roster have been challenging for a new NBA coach. We can sympathize with Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013)'s situation, but the bottom line is that Ty Co (former Utah Jazz coach 2011-2013) has failed the challenge. Too stubborn, too committed to things that "SHOULD" work, even after seeing they are, in fact NOT working, too respectful of veterans who have "earned" playing time, not by their PLAY but by their SENIORITY.

Hopefully, he'll have smoother sailing in his next coaching position.

Only having Mo for 50-60 games was absolutely predictable, because that's all he has ever played. I predicted it with confidence before the season started, and I'm a lousy prognosticator.

I know a lot of Jazz fans, including myself, who had great reservations about acquiring Al Jefferson, no matter how good of a deal he was. The reasons given were that he was a lousy defender, that he had never been on a winning team (which was strange because he was a 20/10 center, and usually that translates to at least some winning), and that he was a lot like Boozer. I'm not saying the Jazz should have signed Boozer, I'm saying getting the next best thing to Boozer for almost the same amount of money was a stupid thing to do, and not just in hindsight. Also, technically he was traded for Boozer, that is how trade exceptions work, according to the CBA Jefferson technically "completed" the Boozer sign and trade...along with Koufos and a draft pick.

There was one good trade (d-will) which they killed, and there was some nice drafting. All of these veteran acquisitions leave a great deal to be desired. Matthews was the most egregious one in my books. It was clear he was a starting quality player as a rookie, great defender, great shooter, the Jazz could have had him for 2 million more than Bell that year and locked up for 6 mil a year for 5 years, but they let him go. That's just stupid. And that isn't hindsight either, I remember feeling and saying that the Jazz would regret letting Matthews go and wondering out loud why they would pay aging veteran Bell to be Matthews replacement for not that much less money or years.