Concerns about Corbin?

I'm starting to have some.

Finally getting around to reading Moneyball. I was somewhat familiar with Bill James and Sabermetrics and the A's story, but it's a great read, and reinforces something I've long observed (and HATED) about football coaching/play-calling: Too many decisions are made with the goal of leaving the coach blameless. Whatever play call offers the lowest likelihood of a result that will leave the coach open to second-guessing is what will get called. Moneyball shows that this also influences baseball managers.

And I'm concerned it's effecting Corbin as well.

Now, basketball is very different from baseball and even more from football, in terms of what the manager/coach is expected to do. A basketball coach may call for defensive or offensive sets, but the dynamism of the players and the fluidity of the action make those "play calls" more like "starting point suggestions". Not really the same as a football coach calling for a dive play on 3rd and 2 when a slant will be there for a long gain. If the slant fails, the coach is stupid. If the dive fails, the players just didn't get it done.

No, I think he's afraid to be innovative in the strategic arena, forcing matchups, using unorthodox lineups, using his player's strengths rather than forcing their skills into a system. I can't really blame him for this, I don't know if he's very conservative in his personal behavior (he would seem to be), or wildly creative in his spare time, but I think he feels he has to be a coach who puts a disciplined team on the floor to run a proven system.

Whether this is because he was with Sloan for a long time or his own personal style, I don't think he feels he has the credibility to do anything different.

So my concern is that this Jazz roster might require some innovation to maximize the talents of the players. And I don't know if Corbin is the guy to do it.

The Moneyball thing breaks down a little because the Jazz disadvantage isn't budgetary, it's psychological. The Jazz HAVE to find ways to use their 5-real-good, 6-decent and Jeremy Evans roster in BETTER ways than their opponents use their Big Two, Big Three, Big Whatever rosters. THAT part of Moneyball, the part where Billy Beane and Paul Podesta take Bill James' approach and utilize it to gain advantage over the Goliaths of the league, is what the Jazz need.

Like what Popovich and staff do every year. How many washed-up players have you seen knocking down corner threes for them? How come they can always play effective interior defense pairing Duncan with non-Centers like Bonner and Fat SF-sized, no-ACL-having guys like Blair?? Sure, maybe Parker and Manu and Duncan are 20 times better than the other players and it's all about having "star power", but I suspect there's a system, some ideas about how to use imperfect players, that contributes to their success too.

The Jazz have length, talent, athleticism, youth and discipline on their side and seem to have a roster full of players who are dead serious about getting better. I really hope Corbin can maximize their success. THIS year.

Excellent post, Troll. I've been experiencing that same nagging feeling since the conclusion of Corbin's first (abbreviated) year as head coach. As the season wore on it became pretty obvious that Corbin was not a creative risk taker, either within game situations or even on multiple week binges. This makes him pretty much an average NBA coach, which is not necessarily a bad thing, (only one Popovich, afterall), but with this particular roster I think it is a borderline sin. As you noted, the team is now composed from top to bottom with seriously focused and competent players, several cusp of stardom potential guys, no "cringe" coming off the bench. While lacking star power I'm going to homer argue this is perhaps one of the best balanced and deep teams in the league. And I'm not sure that Corbin is creative and in fact farily regimented. Big peeve of mine is not riding the hot hand(s) or line-up combos, even if the lineup is "unorthodox", instead reverting to patterned substitutions. While that is an in-game issue I have with Corbin, in the bigger picture I don't think his pre-game strategies are very interesting either. The starting lineup he rolls out is always consistent and only varies with injuries, never shifting to capture advantage over the other teams line-up. Other team a little weak on tall trees? Start more bigs? Other team a little aged and slow? Start the quick guys. Not talking about a night to night who-knows-who is starting, but strategic chess playing - all the really good players will get tick, just different combinations based on what the other team is serving up or who is or not getting the job done regardless of whether they started or not.

MTJazz wrote:

Excellent post, Troll. I've been experiencing that same nagging feeling since the conclusion of Corbin's first (abbreviated) year as head coach. As the season wore on it became pretty obvious that Corbin was not a creative risk taker, either within game situations or even on multiple week binges. This makes him pretty much an average NBA coach, which is not necessarily a bad thing, (only one Popovich, afterall), but with this particular roster I think it is a borderline sin. As you noted, the team is now composed from top to bottom with seriously focused and competent players, several cusp of stardom potential guys, no "cringe" coming off the bench. While lacking star power I'm going to homer argue this is perhaps one of the best balanced and deep teams in the league. And I'm not sure that Corbin is creative and in fact farily regimented. Big peeve of mine is not riding the hot hand(s) or line-up combos, even if the lineup is "unorthodox", instead reverting to patterned substitutions. While that is an in-game issue I have with Corbin, in the bigger picture I don't think his pre-game strategies are very interesting either. The starting lineup he rolls out is always consistent and only varies with injuries, never shifting to capture advantage over the other teams line-up. Other team a little weak on tall trees? Start more bigs? Other team a little aged and slow? Start the quick guys. Not talking about a night to night who-knows-who is starting, but strategic chess playing - all the really good players will get tick, just different combinations based on what the other team is serving up or who is or not getting the job done regardless of whether they started or not.

I think probably 99% of teams roll out the same starting lineup all year, you know, overall.

I will say Corbin was great for the most part at playing the guys who brought it, and didn't make boneheaded plays. CJ Miles got yanked swiftly and rightfully.

Last year was such an unbelievably tough year for Ty with a ton of youth, shortened season, no training camp and realistically two new starters in Al and Devin. I dont think we can gather much from last year. But I do think he was pretty decent at making big changes. I mean after being an afterthought, DC became a starter for a great run of games (then Ty boneheaded and pulled him for the playoffs)

With all that said, hah, Corbin struck me as nervous. Nervous to make real moves. So I guess I agree somewhat, but I would not be surprised at all to see him be very successful this year instead. I think this team that wants to be good, and wants to play together is going to make quite a few things easy for Ty.

Yeah, that's why I used "concern" instead of a "panic" or "FIRE CORBIN NOW!" kind of title.

I really do like Corbin, and God knows the team needed stability, conspicuous stability, after the loss of D-Will and Sloan, on the heels of losing Okur, Boozer and Korver. And he has provided that.

So, like you said: "average NBA coach", which isn't bad. "Sloan-like", even, which also isn't bad (though it's better if you are actually, you know, Jerry Sloan). I just hope he's up to the challenges this year will present.

It think concerns about Corbin should be centered in character more than basketball smarts. I remember him being mentioned as the "player friendly" guy in Sloan's staff, being kind of soft with Watson when Tinsley's got the nod as the backup PG, being too quick taking Favors out of the starting lineup instead of trying him at the 5, being a little bit lazy and slow in turning the tide to the young guns, not being able to manage Bell's situation...

outerspacefan wrote:

It think concerns about Corbin should be centered in character more than basketball smarts. I remember him being mentioned as the "player friendly" guy in Sloan's staff, being kind of soft with Watson when Tinsley's got the nod as the backup PG, being too quick taking Favors out of the starting lineup instead of trying him at the 5, being a little bit lazy and slow in turning the tide to the young guns, not being able to manage Bell's situation...

Hey what do you mean didn't handle Raja's situation?? He told Raja you aren't good enough, too bad, you're not playing. Thats all that matters to me. Sorry Raja was all butt-hurt.These are the reasons I like Corbin.
My opinion, was that he should have been COY with how he handled all the young guys and took a team to the playoffs, all while getting kids playing time.

outerspacefan wrote:

It think concerns about Corbin should be centered in character more than basketball smarts. I remember him being mentioned as the "player friendly" guy in Sloan's staff, being kind of soft with Watson when Tinsley's got the nod as the backup PG, being too quick taking Favors out of the starting lineup instead of trying him at the 5, being a little bit lazy and slow in turning the tide to the young guns, not being able to manage Bell's situation...

It's a concern. I would hope the Jazz players, including the young ones, are the type who'd play hard for someone who was good to them, rather than take advantage, but maybe that's being a little pollyanna-ish.

I'm thinking we might be better served with a no-nonsense coach who'd take players out of their comfort zone to try and develop them.

Because players "become who they are" at some point in their lives. For some, it's high school, or their first couple years in the league. Others try and get better to the bitter end. If the Jazz have young players who think "this is how I play the game", they'll need a coach who will challenge them. Concerns...

I should probably concede that we don't really know how it will work out this year, and I think he's done well enough to have earned the shot.

If it works out as well as I secretly hope it might maybe possibly please work out...no concerns.

If the season seems like a lot of inconsistency adding up to a mediocre record*, then we'll have to address the question of whether coaching differently might have made a difference.

You know, the usual "UP AGAINST THE WALL WIN NOW OR DIE MOTHER******!!! But, no pressure, we love ya man." NBA coaching dynamic lol.

*-it occurs to me that people might have very different ideas about what would constitute "mediocrity" for this team, but that question probably will get it's own thread at some point.

Most people on the board thought the Jazz would wind up with anywhere from 8-25 wins, Corbin coach's them to 36. I for one looked at a lot of what he was doing and wondered what the Hell he was thinking, but he is new and he is following in the footsteps of Sloan which is a tought thing to do in this city. The guy had a ton of pressure and somehow he came through it alright.
Give him a year at least and see what shakes out, I don't agree with everything he does but he needs a chance.

Trollificus wrote:

I should probably concede that we don't really know how it will work out this year, and I think he's done well enough to have earned the shot.

If it works out as well as I secretly hope it might maybe possibly please work out...no concerns.

If the season seems like a lot of inconsistency adding up to a mediocre record*, then we'll have to address the question of whether coaching differently might have made a difference.

You know, the usual "UP AGAINST THE WALL WIN NOW OR DIE MOTHERLICKER!!! But, no pressure, we love ya man." NBA coaching dynamic lol.

*-it occurs to me that people might have very different ideas about what would constitute "mediocrity" for this team, but that question probably will get it's own thread at some point.

Mediocrity at a minimum, with this team I think should be looked at getting the 8th seed again. Anything less than 7th seed should be looked at a fail and something is wrong and must be fixed. Team is better this year, another year older, and still stayed together.

Mutangclan wrote:

outerspacefan wrote:

... not being able to manage Bell's situation...

Hey what do you mean didn't handle Raja's situation?? He told Raja you aren't good enough, too bad, you're not playing...

Coach went kind of hard over Bell but then sort of pissed his pants with Watson...
I think it would have been better, just for instance, to address Bell's shortcomings as backcourt shortcomings; after all Harris sucked too for a big part of the season and Watson was not getting the job done either...

Trollificus wrote:

I'm starting to have some.

Finally getting around to reading Moneyball. I was somewhat familiar with Bill James and Sabermetrics and the A's story, but it's a great read, and reinforces something I've long observed (and HATED) about football coaching/play-calling: Too many decisions are made with the goal of leaving the coach blameless. Whatever play call offers the lowest likelihood of a result that will leave the coach open to second-guessing is what will get called. Moneyball shows that this also influences baseball managers.

And I'm concerned it's effecting Corbin as well.

Now, basketball is very different from baseball and even more from football, in terms of what the manager/coach is expected to do. A basketball coach may call for defensive or offensive sets, but the dynamism of the players and the fluidity of the action make those "play calls" more like "starting point suggestions". Not really the same as a football coach calling for a dive play on 3rd and 2 when a slant will be there for a long gain. If the slant fails, the coach is stupid. If the dive fails, the players just didn't get it done.

No, I think he's afraid to be innovative in the strategic arena, forcing matchups, using unorthodox lineups, using his player's strengths rather than forcing their skills into a system. I can't really blame him for this, I don't know if he's very conservative in his personal behavior (he would seem to be), or wildly creative in his spare time, but I think he feels he has to be a coach who puts a disciplined team on the floor to run a proven system.

Whether this is because he was with Sloan for a long time or his own personal style, I don't think he feels he has the credibility to do anything different.

So my concern is that this Jazz roster might require some innovation to maximize the talents of the players. And I don't know if Corbin is the guy to do it.

The Moneyball thing breaks down a little because the Jazz disadvantage isn't budgetary, it's psychological. The Jazz HAVE to find ways to use their 5-real-good, 6-decent and Jeremy Evans roster in BETTER ways than their opponents use their Big Two, Big Three, Big Whatever rosters. THAT part of Moneyball, the part where Billy Beane and Paul Podesta take Bill James' approach and utilize it to gain advantage over the Goliaths of the league, is what the Jazz need.

Like what Popovich and staff do every year. How many washed-up players have you seen knocking down corner threes for them? How come they can always play effective interior defense pairing Duncan with non-Centers like Bonner and Fat SF-sized, no-ACL-having guys like Blair?? Sure, maybe Parker and Manu and Duncan are 20 times better than the other players and it's all about having "star power", but I suspect there's a system, some ideas about how to use imperfect players, that contributes to their success too.

The Jazz have length, talent, athleticism, youth and discipline on their side and seem to have a roster full of players who are dead serious about getting better. I really hope Corbin can maximize their success. THIS year.

Great post. I agree that the problem in professional sports is what we lost when Jerry walked out the door. Jerry did things that I hated (his set rotations still give me nightmares.) But the one thing that I always loved was that it was Jerry's way or the highway. Pop has that same grace and Belicheck in the NFL. Fear of loosing a great thing drives too many decisions.

13uz wrote:

Trollificus wrote:

I'm starting to have some.

Finally getting around to reading Moneyball. I was somewhat familiar with Bill James and Sabermetrics and the A's story, but it's a great read, and reinforces something I've long observed (and HATED) about football coaching/play-calling: Too many decisions are made with the goal of leaving the coach blameless. Whatever play call offers the lowest likelihood of a result that will leave the coach open to second-guessing is what will get called. Moneyball shows that this also influences baseball managers.

And I'm concerned it's effecting Corbin as well.

Now, basketball is very different from baseball and even more from football, in terms of what the manager/coach is expected to do. A basketball coach may call for defensive or offensive sets, but the dynamism of the players and the fluidity of the action make those "play calls" more like "starting point suggestions". Not really the same as a football coach calling for a dive play on 3rd and 2 when a slant will be there for a long gain. If the slant fails, the coach is stupid. If the dive fails, the players just didn't get it done.

No, I think he's afraid to be innovative in the strategic arena, forcing matchups, using unorthodox lineups, using his player's strengths rather than forcing their skills into a system. I can't really blame him for this, I don't know if he's very conservative in his personal behavior (he would seem to be), or wildly creative in his spare time, but I think he feels he has to be a coach who puts a disciplined team on the floor to run a proven system.

Whether this is because he was with Sloan for a long time or his own personal style, I don't think he feels he has the credibility to do anything different.

So my concern is that this Jazz roster might require some innovation to maximize the talents of the players. And I don't know if Corbin is the guy to do it.

The Moneyball thing breaks down a little because the Jazz disadvantage isn't budgetary, it's psychological. The Jazz HAVE to find ways to use their 5-real-good, 6-decent and Jeremy Evans roster in BETTER ways than their opponents use their Big Two, Big Three, Big Whatever rosters. THAT part of Moneyball, the part where Billy Beane and Paul Podesta take Bill James' approach and utilize it to gain advantage over the Goliaths of the league, is what the Jazz need.

Like what Popovich and staff do every year. How many washed-up players have you seen knocking down corner threes for them? How come they can always play effective interior defense pairing Duncan with non-Centers like Bonner and Fat SF-sized, no-ACL-having guys like Blair?? Sure, maybe Parker and Manu and Duncan are 20 times better than the other players and it's all about having "star power", but I suspect there's a system, some ideas about how to use imperfect players, that contributes to their success too.

The Jazz have length, talent, athleticism, youth and discipline on their side and seem to have a roster full of players who are dead serious about getting better. I really hope Corbin can maximize their success. THIS year.

Great post. I agree that the problem in professional sports is what we lost when Jerry walked out the door. Jerry did things that I hated (his set rotations still give me nightmares.) But the one thing that I always loved was that it was Jerry's way or the highway. Pop has that same grace and Belicheck in the NFL. Fear of loosing a great thing drives too many decisions.

It's hard for coaches to act that way anymore. Most teams are so concerned about losing their "Stars" that they overlook how important coaching is to a team.

I mean a good coach can add 10-15 wins in an NBA season. Also if a team allows a coach to have complete control over a team they are more likely to accept their coaching as well as their coaching decisions.

Does anyone really think Bell would have pulled the shit he pulled last year with Sloan? Players are NOT able to make good decisions for the team. They are worried about themselves and allowing them to control a team is ridiculous.

I think the term is letting the inmates run the asylum. You don't let employees make decisions that effect everyone from the other players to the front office right down to the concession workers. That as much as Deron being flaky about his future is why he got traded.

It's not as big of an issue in the NFL, but it is starting to ruin the NBA. Players are now deciding who they will be traded to and when they will practice or even if they are going to play in games. Look at Howard last year. Every Dr said he would be fine to wait until the off season to have his surgery, but he decided he was done playing for the magic and called it a season. That shows a complete lack of respect for his teammates, the Magic organization and their fans.

I think that "non-creativity" was quite a bit more obvious in Sloan. CJ and I were quite a bit irritated at the time.

Corbin did a good job at getting this young team to the playoffs this last season and because of that should have the backing of the Management this coming season, He did make some mistakes but you have to remember this was his first full season at being the Head Coach. The thing is everyone makes mistakes that is just how things works but as long as a person learns from making them then he is making progress.

dongibby wrote:

Corbin did a good job at getting this young team to the playoffs this last season and because of that should have the backing of the Management this coming season, He did make some mistakes but you have to remember this was his first full season at being the Head Coach. The thing is everyone makes mistakes that is just how things works but as long as a person learns from making them then he is making progress.

Don, I think you're totally right. Corbin should really only be judged after this full season and our run in the playoffs.

I liked many of the things Corbin did last year, like experimenting with Milsap at SF, facing up to Bell when he pitched a fit about not getting playing time, giving Miles opportunites, while being willing to pull him if things didn't go well.

It is important to realize Corbin has yet to have a full season complete with a Summer League, Training Camps and a Pre-Season, along with a complete Coaching Staff to work through all these with. Realistically, I look at this season as being the equivalent to a him being a Second Year Coach who made the Playoffs in his first year. Taking over mid-season, then having a strike shortened season, added together are only the equivalent of one season at best, IMO.

When it comes to situational coaching, there are many coaches out there who have had significantly more experience, got the better of him last year and may still get the better of him this upcoming year. My hope is he learns and grows as our young team grows resulting in the Jazz being in position to play for a Championship if not this season, then next season or the one after that.

If by then, he or the team under his guidance, has not gown sufficiently, then a change would be called for. Until then, I for one will have a hard time being overly critical of the coach's performance, especially now, following a year where he led the team to the play-offs, notwithstanding most if not all the experts had them finishing far below this mark.

ptaz66 wrote:

If by then, he or the team under his guidance, has not gown sufficiently, then a change would be called for. Until then, I for one will have a hard time being overly critical of the coach's performance, especially now, following a year where he led the team to the play-offs, notwithstanding most if not all the experts had them finishing far below this mark.

That is a fair point and I don't think this thread was about sacking Corbin for being incompetent, and yes, whatever he did he got the team into the playoffs when they probably shouldn't have. He spent so much time in Sloan's system with players built for it its totally fair to wait to chop off his head with this new young crew with his imprint. My concern is he will continue to be the chef who still relies on tried and true recipes (that get stale) instead of spinning new ingredients into fresh dishes. The current roster is a ridiculous cupboard of ingredients for a fusion dish, (think Tex-Mex sushi or something), that have the crowds lined up out the door. So far he is shown next to no creativity, too tied to regimented substitution patterns and line-ups. This resulted in him getting worked by a lot of other coaches who could take the game to him rather than him dictating the player rotations to the them. (Example, how many times did you scream at the TV when he pulled the young guns who were killing simply to make sure the starters got their crunchtime minutes)?

MTJazz wrote:

ptaz66 wrote:

If by then, he or the team under his guidance, has not gown sufficiently, then a change would be called for. Until then, I for one will have a hard time being overly critical of the coach's performance, especially now, following a year where he led the team to the play-offs, notwithstanding most if not all the experts had them finishing far below this mark.

That is a fair point and I don't think this thread was about sacking Corbin for being incompetent, and yes, whatever he did he got the team into the playoffs when they probably shouldn't have. He spent so much time in Sloan's system with players built for it its totally fair to wait to chop off his head with this new young crew with his imprint. My concern is he will continue to be the chef who still relies on tried and true recipes (that get stale) instead of spinning new ingredients into fresh dishes. The current roster is a ridiculous cupboard of ingredients for a fusion dish, (think Tex-Mex sushi or something), that have the crowds lined up out the door. So far he is shown next to no creativity, too tied to regimented substitution patterns and line-ups. This resulted in him getting worked by a lot of other coaches who could take the game to him rather than him dictating the player rotations to the them. (Example, how many times did you scream at the TV when he pulled the young guns who were killing simply to make sure the starters got their crunchtime minutes)?

He took the Jazz to the playoffs with miles/howard as starters for most of the year. Shoot, even Bell was starting. Was their a worse wing rotation in the league? He took them to the playoffs. He gets an A in my book for his job last year.

therawns wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

ptaz66 wrote:

If by then, he or the team under his guidance, has not gown sufficiently, then a change would be called for. Until then, I for one will have a hard time being overly critical of the coach's performance, especially now, following a year where he led the team to the play-offs, notwithstanding most if not all the experts had them finishing far below this mark.

That is a fair point and I don't think this thread was about sacking Corbin for being incompetent, and yes, whatever he did he got the team into the playoffs when they probably shouldn't have. He spent so much time in Sloan's system with players built for it its totally fair to wait to chop off his head with this new young crew with his imprint. My concern is he will continue to be the chef who still relies on tried and true recipes (that get stale) instead of spinning new ingredients into fresh dishes. The current roster is a ridiculous cupboard of ingredients for a fusion dish, (think Tex-Mex sushi or something), that have the crowds lined up out the door. So far he is shown next to no creativity, too tied to regimented substitution patterns and line-ups. This resulted in him getting worked by a lot of other coaches who could take the game to him rather than him dictating the player rotations to the them. (Example, how many times did you scream at the TV when he pulled the young guns who were killing simply to make sure the starters got their crunchtime minutes)?

He took the Jazz to the playoffs with miles/howard as starters for most of the year. Shoot, even Bell was starting. Was their a worse wing rotation in the league? He took them to the playoffs. He gets an A in my book for his job last year.

Probably not

Romoholic wrote:

therawns wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

ptaz66 wrote:

If by then, he or the team under his guidance, has not gown sufficiently, then a change would be called for. Until then, I for one will have a hard time being overly critical of the coach's performance, especially now, following a year where he led the team to the play-offs, notwithstanding most if not all the experts had them finishing far below this mark.

That is a fair point and I don't think this thread was about sacking Corbin for being incompetent, and yes, whatever he did he got the team into the playoffs when they probably shouldn't have. He spent so much time in Sloan's system with players built for it its totally fair to wait to chop off his head with this new young crew with his imprint. My concern is he will continue to be the chef who still relies on tried and true recipes (that get stale) instead of spinning new ingredients into fresh dishes. The current roster is a ridiculous cupboard of ingredients for a fusion dish, (think Tex-Mex sushi or something), that have the crowds lined up out the door. So far he is shown next to no creativity, too tied to regimented substitution patterns and line-ups. This resulted in him getting worked by a lot of other coaches who could take the game to him rather than him dictating the player rotations to the them. (Example, how many times did you scream at the TV when he pulled the young guns who were killing simply to make sure the starters got their crunchtime minutes)?

He took the Jazz to the playoffs with miles/howard as starters for most of the year. Shoot, even Bell was starting. Was their a worse wing rotation in the league? He took them to the playoffs. He gets an A in my book for his job last year.

Probably not

Okay, that was an exaggeration, but there is a reason why howard and miles have not been picked up. Would the Jazz officially buy bell out if he finally got a deal? These guys are journeymen now. THe point remains with the wing players they had, its hard to criticize a coach if he took them to the playoffs.

I'll even concede he did as well as anyone could have expected last year.

This year, it's more pressure for even better results. I have to think Marv and Mo are upgrades and Burx, Hayward, and Favors should be much improved, with no dropoff from any of our other mainstays (Millsap, Jefferson, the Old PGs). And that's our 12 man team (with Kanter, Evans and Murphy...any of whom could be better than Miles/Bell/Howard).

Looks to me like we should do better than last year.