FIRE TYRONE CORBIN

That was a freaking joke, a f**king freaking joke.

DC starts a game and a half?? Then yanked for Marvin at halftime?
Marvin goes for 27minutes?
Paul 20mins?
Alec Burks 13 minutes???
We're going freaking 11 deep???
Play calling? What play calling??
A day after Marvin says he doesn't care about going to the bench, he gets played 27 minutes??? And DC gets nothing after the "big lineup move" by Corbin.

This is a joke. A f**king joke. Corbin has ruined this team this year. And now, for the second year in a row, when something luckily starting working for him, like Burks/DC etc he then goes completely away from it. Just like DC and Howard last year.

This guy is a joke. What a season and team he has ruined. I seriously hope the first move of the off season, after we miss the playoffs, is to fire him.

Mutangclan wrote:

That was a freaking joke, a f**king freaking joke.

DC stars a game and a half?? Then yanked for Marvin at halftime?
Marvin goes for 27minutes?
Paul 20mins?
Alec Burks 13 minutes???
We're going freaking 11 deep???
Play calling? What play calling??

This is a joke. A f**king joke. Corbin has ruined this team this year. And now, for the second year in a row, when something luckily starting working for him, like Burks/DC etc he then goes completely away from it. Just like DC and Howard last year.

This guy is a joke. What a season and team he has ruined. I seriously hope the first move of the off season, after we miss the playoffs, is to fire him.

don't look now, but the Lakers are only 5 pts down going into the 4th with Toronto after being down 16 pts...

Mutangclan wrote:

That was a freaking joke, a f**king freaking joke.

DC starts a game and a half?? Then yanked for Marvin at halftime?
Marvin goes for 27minutes?
Paul 20mins?
Alec Burks 13 minutes???
We're going freaking 11 deep???
Play calling? What play calling??
A day after Marvin says he doesn't care about going to the bench, he gets played 27 minutes??? And DC gets nothing after the "big lineup move" by Corbin.

This is a joke. A f**king joke. Corbin has ruined this team this year. And now, for the second year in a row, when something luckily starting working for him, like Burks/DC etc he then goes completely away from it. Just like DC and Howard last year.

This guy is a joke. What a season and team he has ruined. I seriously hope the first move of the off season, after we miss the playoffs, is to fire him.

Um, I know it's got you all fired up, but Marvin played really well, and ended up with the highest +/- on the team.

Also, I believe Corbin was playing a bit of a long game here, knowing that this was the front end of a back-to-back and the 3rd game of the road trip, got a few guys banged up, he went to the bench early and often and I thought the team played pretty well overall.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

That was a freaking joke, a f**king freaking joke.

DC starts a game and a half?? Then yanked for Marvin at halftime?
Marvin goes for 27minutes?
Paul 20mins?
Alec Burks 13 minutes???
We're going freaking 11 deep???
Play calling? What play calling??
A day after Marvin says he doesn't care about going to the bench, he gets played 27 minutes??? And DC gets nothing after the "big lineup move" by Corbin.

This is a joke. A f**king joke. Corbin has ruined this team this year. And now, for the second year in a row, when something luckily starting working for him, like Burks/DC etc he then goes completely away from it. Just like DC and Howard last year.

This guy is a joke. What a season and team he has ruined. I seriously hope the first move of the off season, after we miss the playoffs, is to fire him.

Um, I know it's got you all fired up, but Marvin played really well, and ended up with the highest +/- on the team.

Also, I believe Corbin was playing a bit of a long game here, knowing that this was the front end of a back-to-back and the 3rd game of the road trip, got a few guys banged up, he went to the bench early and often and I thought the team played pretty well overall.

I saw what Marvin did. Great. He showed up for one game. How in the world is this team supposed to find any rhythm when rotations are so screwed up?

And I know you saw the same thing I did Magnus. That team last night looked all over the place. Looked like they had just been thrown together, as strangers. It's the NBA, you cant just put out the most talent and expect to win. They have to know how to play with each other, and certainly against a defensive team like the Bulls. Everybody was all over, and it's a direct reflection of the loose way Corbin is treating this team. The players that have been good, are getting the bench. And the players that have been bad, are still getting minutes. Not to mention, 1.5 games as a starter for DC then yanked again? That is absurd.

Great for Marvin. He showed aggression and effort we haven't seen since November. But the losses continue to pile up, and Corbin continues to go away from just playing the 9 players that should be played. Going 11 deep and we are in the midst of saving our playoff lives, is not good coaching. And you're giving Corbin way too much of a pass....bit of a long game? Its working great that decision. This team doesn't have that luxury.

I think this thread deserves a periodic bump <g>, so I am remixing and posting some comments that I posted elsewhere on potential coaches.

Phil Johnson is a great candidate, though he might not be interested. If memory serves me correct, he did a great job when he filled in for Jerry. He generally won and he was willing to try different lineups. Though he didn't lead the Jazz to all those playoff wins over the years as head coach, he was right there all those Sloan years as an extremely influential number two man. Phil also has a Coach of the Year Award on his resume from clear back with the Kansas City Kings in the 74-75 season. Moreover, Phil has been right here watching all the Jazz games as a commentator, so he could move in to the job more seamlessly than the other candidates below.

Both of the Van Gundys are great candidates, though I like Jeff better than Stan. Stan's voice grates on me too much; that along with the fact that he looks like he is more suited to coaching competitive eating than coaching basketball. The Van Gundys have both gone deep in to the playoffs --- both going all the way to NBA Finals before losing. They have both won with their franchise players out of the lineup, Yao and D12. They are both often entertaining at press conferences<g>.

McMillan is another good candidate. He doesn't have the deep in to the playoff records that the Van Gundys have, but he won a lot of games in Portland despite being dealt an unlucky hand with the two franchise players', Oden and Roy, constantly missing huge chunks of the seasons with injuries. McMillan won with a lot of different lineups. He also made the playoffs a couple of times in Seattle with teams that did not have a very high talent level. He has put in his time as both a player and a coach. George Karl referred to him as the heart and soul of some of those good Seattle teams in the nineties, especially defensively. Nate is at a productive, energetic age --48, and has been preparing for his next opportunity as an NBA head coach by picking other head coaches brains and observing their practices this season. On the other hand, Troll may be right about his style not fitting with the Jazz; I don't know.

I would take Sloan back too, but I would prefer someone new just so I don't have to listen to all the Sloan bashers in Jazz Nation all over again. LOL. JMO.

Repost from another thread...

Mutangclan wrote:

So what do you think, Fire Corbin? Go after JVG, SVG, McMillian, other, Jerry???

I think they should probably fire Corbin this summer, but I doubt they will.

As far as a replacement goes...I actually don't love any of those options. I love Jerry but I don't think they should being him back, and the rest are all good coaches, but they all have their own identity and style, and I would prefer that the Jazz find some younger up an comming coach that mixes an appreciation for Jazz tradition with a knowlege of both traditional and modern data based coaching methods. Somebody that can come in and create an identity wiht the Jazz franchise the way that both Frank Layden and Jerry Sloan did.

JVG and McMillan are both grind it out "east-coast" style coaches. They consistently played at some of the slowest paces in the NBA, interestingly they used that pace in entirely differnet ways. McMillan using it to create a highly efficient offense based on methodical ball movement and JVG using it to facilitate hard nosed position based defense. Stan is a little harder to guage, he's had some really great teams, and he was essentially forced out of a championship calliber squad so Pat Riley could get another ring, he's also quite the charachter.

I don't know, but one thing I do know is that between Lindsey and KOC they have been around two of the all time great NBA coaches for a lot of years, two coaches that have VERY different styles, almost opposite in many ways. Jerry was great because of his consistency, every player know what their role was, every scheme and every set was disciplined and that discipline let to efficiency, I also think he was under-rated when it came to making minor adjustments to his schemes to fit the personel he had. Pop is one of the greatest tactical coaches in the history of the game, his gift is being able to adjust his schemes to his personel AND to what his opponents are doing, both on macro and micro levels.

I think they have to see that Ty is simply not that calliber of coach, and while it seems like an obvious point to mention that few are, I would think that you have to take a similar approach to coaches as you do to franchise type players. You can live with a few rough years if the player is young and the potential is good, but as soon as you know about where the cieling is, and that isn't very high, then it's probably time to move on.

What about the Little General? Yes, I am talking about Avery Johnson. He couldn't coach the diva in New Jersey, but could he gel with the Core Four?

No matter which way the Jazz go when it comes to coaching, I'd like to see Earl brought in as an assistant. Let's get his foot in the coaching door. To me, it seems like he's got the coaching gene, and could really help out the team, especially the young guys. (Just don't let him play anymore!)

MTJazz wrote:

If the Jazz are truly prepared to be a lottery team next year that would suggest to me that the team is looking to peak out in 3 years with this cohort. Corbin is not the man for the job so it would make the most sense to shift horses before the draft. Look no further than Denver and George Karl as an example of a coach who has mastered spreading minutes around a 10-man deep roster, with no superstars, who is going to be dangerous in the playoffs. Corbin is an unimaginative mechanical coach - the Jazz need a guy to start over with the whole offense and defensive scheme to match the talents at hand. A big start in this direction is letting Al go and getting a creative and fast PG on board.

Karl is an interesting comparison because in the stat head circles he's right up there next to Ty Corbin for criticism of his rotations. I read several articles calling him the worst coach in the NBA last year, loaded with data about how he overvalued experience (veterans) and the ability to score when setting his rotations and played some of the worst rotations most often. This year the front office jettisoned almost all of the veteran guys that the stat heads were complaining about and suddenly Karl looks a lot smarter.

I said before that the front office shouldn't have to be in a position where they have to manage for bad coaching, but don't be surprised if they keep Ty, jettision all of this veteran ballast this summer, and suddenly Ty looks like a better coach next year.

thejazzkickazz wrote:

What about the Little General? Yes, I am talking about Avery Johnson. He couldn't coach the diva in New Jersey, but could he gel with the Core Four?

Never really liked Avery as a coach. Not really sure why.

You know, and maybe this is just my problem, I have a kind of unshakeable bias that coaches who have been fired from multiple jobs are damaged goods. I guess my assumption is that there are usulaly good reasons for firing somebody. Maybe in the nonsensical world of NBA franchises that assumtion may not hold, or maybe it does? I just know that is always there in my mind when I look at alternatives to Corbin.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

If the Jazz are truly prepared to be a lottery team next year that would suggest to me that the team is looking to peak out in 3 years with this cohort. Corbin is not the man for the job so it would make the most sense to shift horses before the draft. Look no further than Denver and George Karl as an example of a coach who has mastered spreading minutes around a 10-man deep roster, with no superstars, who is going to be dangerous in the playoffs. Corbin is an unimaginative mechanical coach - the Jazz need a guy to start over with the whole offense and defensive scheme to match the talents at hand. A big start in this direction is letting Al go and getting a creative and fast PG on board.

Karl is an interesting comparison because in the stat head circles he's right up there next to Ty Corbin for criticism of his rotations. I read several articles calling him the worst coach in the NBA last year, loaded with data about how he overvalued experience (veterans) and the ability to score when setting his rotations and played some of the worst rotations most often. This year the front office jettisoned almost all of the veteran guys that the stat heads were complaining about and suddenly Karl looks a lot smarter.

I said before that the front office shouldn't have to be in a position where they have to manage for bad coaching, but don't be surprised if they keep Ty, jettision all of this veteran ballast this summer, and suddenly Ty looks like a better coach next year.

You may be correct on that - the argument that the team as constituted is flawed and the solution is let the young guys run making the coach look better. However, Al and Sap are really the only two older veterans Ty was obliged to play this year. Foye and Marvin were misused and over-played, delaying the development of Burks and DC. And at that, Corbin didn't do a good job getting Kanter minutes until Sap and Al started having injury issues. Say what you will about Karl, but I always thought he was a good coach, always changing things up to match the roster abilities. Any coach who can run a 10-man deep roster well enough for the 5th seed in West or higher without a superstar is doing something really well. Ty has that same 10-deep lineup and couldn't get it done.

Here's a fun quote from our coach ....

Jazz coach Ty Corbin shot back at critics on Monday, saying they “probably haven't never did anything at this level in their life. They can talk. Talk is cheap.”


<Sigh> "probably haven't never did". Even Karl Malone would have a hard time understanding what Ty is saying here.
Let me help you out coach...... "probably haven't ever done anything at this level in their life". You see, when you use the terms "haven't" & "never" next to eachother, it actually means that they HAVE done things at that level, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant. Now, want me to help you wih that starting line-up & rotations as well Mr. Corbin?

(I know, I know, nit-picking, but still....)

Fallacy from a man who knows to be failing
I suppose Corbin think an astronomer can't talk on Pluto because dude's never been there

Anyway, probably this is not the time to ask for coach's head. Let the season wane and then take a little time to think about it. Corbin has been failing ALL the possible tests all the way from the casual fan view to the complex stats.

BUT... he's a Jazz dude... and in the middle of the huge mess he's been making with his players, he has some good little points too and may be, just may be he can lear a thing or two going into next season.

You know... there really are some ugly so called "coaches" out there waiting for a call...

No one cheered harder than Tyrone Corbin yesterday when Kobe Bryant went down with a sprained ankle. That just increased the low odds that the Jazz will get into the playoffs and save Ty's job. I guess if you're a Kobe hater, this is yet another reason to hate him. He may have just allowed Ty to stick around another year!

thejazzkickazz wrote:

No one cheered harder than Tyrone Corbin yesterday when Kobe Bryant went down with a sprained ankle. That just increased the low odds that the Jazz will get into the playoffs and save Ty's job. I guess if you're a Kobe hater, this is yet another reason to hate him. He may have just allowed Ty to stick around another year!

I dunno, if the Jazz keep playing like they are now, even if they back into the playoffs I have a hard time believing that they will keep him another year.

I know the Jazz don't make snap judgements, they don't want to pay two coaches next year, and they will almost always blame the players for poor performance rather than coaches...but the Jazz look really bad right now. And it's not like it's just lack of effort like Corbin seems to think, the execution is piss poor and the offensive and defensive schemes in general seem to be designed to be sub-optimal.

On top of that we have a new GM who uses words like "evaluate" and "we'll see" when talking about Ty Corbins future, and we are at a point where we can turn over more than half of the roster this summer. So I'm starting to think that Corbin will have to lead a massive charge to close out this season or he may have already lost his job, whether the Jazz make the playoffs or not.

TheMagnus wrote:

thejazzkickazz wrote:

No one cheered harder than Tyrone Corbin yesterday when Kobe Bryant went down with a sprained ankle. That just increased the low odds that the Jazz will get into the playoffs and save Ty's job. I guess if you're a Kobe hater, this is yet another reason to hate him. He may have just allowed Ty to stick around another year!

I dunno, if the Jazz keep playing like they are now, even if they back into the playoffs I have a hard time believing that they will keep him another year.

I know the Jazz don't make snap judgements, they don't want to pay two coaches next year, and they will almost always blame the players for poor performance rather than coaches...but the Jazz look really bad right now. And it's not like it's just lack of effort like Corbin seems to think, the execution is piss poor and the offensive and defensive schemes in general seem to be designed to be sub-optimal.

On top of that we have a new GM who uses words like "evaluate" and "we'll see" when talking about Ty Corbins future, and we are at a point where we can turn over more than half of the roster this summer. So I'm starting to think that Corbin will have to lead a massive charge to close out this season or he may have already lost his job, whether the Jazz make the playoffs or not.

Kobe goes down, yea, thats crazy. He'll probably push it, and it's going to be a detriment. Nice Utah has a chance here. Would be nice though if we can play the guys who need to be played.....

You know, I was kind of seeing the same things. I mean, even last night in that blowout, you were able to see how much better of a "team" this was without Jefferson in there. Which, I attribute that offense to Corbin's limited coaching skills. He only knows how to get the ball into Al. Whereas when Gordo gets in there, and starts making things happen, along with Burks and Kanter etc, it starts looking like team basketball.

But more than anything, yea, the defense is where its glaring the most. He has these guys playing a pick and roll for example, the same way whether its Fav or Al, and it looks absolutely ridiculous as they get beat so badly.

Not only that, but I still see the same looks on the guys faces with Corbin. I think they're all done with him. I think DC's shoulder may have been just as much an internal frustration as it was for the team getting whupped. Gordon has that look on his face too as he plays, and usually he's alot more, how should we say, enjoying himself out there. Last few games, not so much.

With Lindsey in there, and with this season what has become GLARINGLY obvious to everyone except for Ty and Al, and actually believe they're both gone and next year this is going to be Gordo/Paul/Fav/Kanter/Burks/Mo's team.

Mutangclan wrote:

Kobe goes down, yea, thats crazy. He'll probably push it, and it's going to be a detriment. Nice Utah has a chance here. Would be nice though if we can play the guys who need to be played.....

You know, I was kind of seeing the same things. I mean, even last night in that blowout, you were able to see how much better of a "team" this was without Jefferson in there. Which, I attribute that offense to Corbin's limited coaching skills. He only knows how to get the ball into Al. Whereas when Gordo gets in there, and starts making things happen, along with Burks and Kanter etc, it starts looking like team basketball.

But more than anything, yea, the defense is where its glaring the most. He has these guys playing a pick and roll for example, the same way whether its Fav or Al, and it looks absolutely ridiculous as they get beat so badly.

Not only that, but I still see the same looks on the guys faces with Corbin. I think they're all done with him. I think DC's shoulder may have been just as much an internal frustration as it was for the team getting whupped. Gordon has that look on his face too as he plays, and usually he's alot more, how should we say, enjoying himself out there. Last few games, not so much.

With Lindsey in there, and with this season what has become GLARINGLY obvious to everyone except for Ty and Al, and actually believe they're both gone and next year this is going to be Gordo/Paul/Fav/Kanter/Burks/Mo's team.

I kind of go up and down on who we should keep depending how guys are playing. This week I'm feeling like the only free agents I want back are DC and Paul. I think the Jazz should move up in this draft to get the PG they want and then get the best short term deal for a serviceable placeholder they can find to make the young guy earn his minutes, if that is Mo then great, if not, fine. They've got Burks that can fill in so 2 deep is really all they need at PG.

Regardless of that, I'm really starting to feel the inertia of the Fire Corbin vibe from Jazz Nation. Not just fans, but also media members and NBA pundits. Corbin feels it, the team feels it, and I'm sure it has to have an effect on the front office, regardless of whether or not they actaully think they need to get rid of Ty.

This is the power of fan/media perception, if the mood is powerfully negative then it poisons the envirionment of the team and if that negativity reaches critical mass, regardless of whether it is fair or warranted, a change has to be made for the team to move forward. I think we are quickly approaching that critical mass, if we aren't there already. Corbins defenders are dwindling, criticism of the team and it's play seems constant, and the team is being dragged into this downward spiral of negativity. I actually think that is as large a cause in the players body language and effort as anything, it isn't that they lost faith in Corbin, it's that everybody else has, and that has changed the way they look at him and themselves.

EXCEPT, I'd say much like you and I, most Jazz fans are smart and get a real enjoyment even during the losses of watching Gordo/Burks/GH/Fav/Paul/DC/Kanter/Evans and even Mo play. I think this season is "lets get to the playoffs, and hopefully Corbin lets the good guys play". But mostly EVERYONE is pumped for the offseason and next year.


Also this:

Bill Oram ‏@tribjazz

Told that Corbin questioned the effort of his starters, Jefferson said, "He got his own opinion. Everybody got their own opinion."

and

Bill Oram ‏@tribjazz

What was Ty Corbin's message postgame? "Did you ask him?" Millsap asked. "It was his message."

It's not writing on the wall, its a billboard. Outerspacefan and I called it early, Ty has lost this team. Mutang= not surprised in the least.

I just don't know if I can do it anymore. I have been watching Jazz basketball for 30 years now. Been through some ups, and a whole lot of downs. I've watched some pretty ugly games and some ugly seasons. And I've stuck with it because of my love of basketball and the utah jazz....but honestly, the interest is waning. I just don't know if I can watch this any more. It's like watching the Titanic slowly sink and hearing the captain say "it's just one iceberg" and then ramming into the same iceberg again and again.

For me, Corbin is sucking the fun/enjoyment out of watching this team. Surely management can see the same things that even the most casual of fans are seeing, cant they? Surely KOC and Lindsey can see what is happening here, can't they?

Ugh....the jazz have literally become the laughingstock of the NBA....again. It's starting to not be fun anymore.

The Voice of Reason wrote:

Ugh....the jazz have literally become the laughingstock of the NBA....again. It's starting to not be fun anymore.

I'm not sure about becoming laughingstock. A lot of folks, and teams, would love to be in their shoes right now, (seriously). Yes, this season is now out of reach for the playoffs. But this season will pass and in the longer picture it won't mean jack that the Jazz didn't make the playoffs only to be humiliated by SA or OKC in a nationally televised sweep. (Personally, I think not having this happen will be better for fan psyche in the long run. I mean seriously, the Jazz are not nor will they remotely be ready for prime time exposure, and sweeps SUCK). The Jazz clearly have a very nice young core to build around and more cap space than just about any other team. This is an awesome opportunity to re-boot. The Jazz will have exactly one shitty contract next year - Marvin's, (two if you count Corbin's), and both are off the books the next year. I'm no so sure Ty has lost the team as much as everyone involved realizes that the 2012-13 Jazz edition just isn't working. The enigma of Al and what that does for winning percentage despite his stats, stubborn coaching that led to too late in the season changes to the starting line-up, the Jazz player's lack of confidence on the road, (how can that be on the coach?). The Foye disappointment. The Marvin disappointment. A good coach, with creative roster management, probably could have positioned the Jazz somewhere between the 6th and 8th seed and a respectable first round out.

The Jazz FO knows this. They aren't going to fire Ty now, they will do it before the draft and FA period. Their loyalty to Ty is not going to extend to another experiment when Lindsey is keyed up to put his wholesale stamp on a new version of the Jazz, from personnel through coaching. This year's model was flawed, from personnel through coaching. Next year's doesn't have to be at all - in fact it could be exciting.

TheMagnus wrote:

I kind of go up and down on who we should keep depending how guys are playing. This week I'm feeling like the only free agents I want back are DC and Paul. I think the Jazz should move up in this draft to get the PG they want and then get the best short term deal for a serviceable placeholder they can find to make the young guy earn his minutes, if that is Mo then great, if not, fine. They've got Burks that can fill in so 2 deep is really all they need at PG.

Mo? Ugh. I was only luke-warm on him as the Jazz' PG when they signed him, and he's done nothing to make me want him back, other than saying all the right things about Utah. I haven't taken the time to look this up, but I'd bet a few bucks & a couple cheeseburgers that he is the runaway winner of the Player with the Worst Winning Percentage on the Team Award. I'd like Mo as the back-up PG/SG, but not as a 25-30MPG starter. If he wants to sign for cheap, with the role of a veteran bench scorer/mentor, great. If not, let him walk. No offense to Mo, cause he seems to like Utah & seems like a decent guy, I just don't have confidence in him as a full-time floor leader. He takes way too many stupid shots, his defense is average at best, and his floor vision is probably barely in the top 5 on the team.

As much crap as we all gave to Tinsley/Earl as the starters, at least the team found a way to win semi-regularly with them out there. Yes, the season was young & the team as a whole was trying to figure things out during his pre-injury run, but I still don't think he's the right guy for the job. .... not to mention that he is almost guaranteed to miss at least 20-30 games a season.

Quote :

An average coach, with creative roster management, probably could have positioned the Jazz somewhere between the 6th and 8th seed and a respectable first round out.

Fixed

The Voice of Reason wrote:

Quote :

An average coach, with creative roster management, probably could have positioned the Jazz somewhere between the 6th and 8th seed and a respectable first round out.

Fixed

HA! Good call.