Off-season roster improvements

Mutangclan wrote:

Sadly, the comparison came down to Mo Almond and Steven Nash, one successful and one not. ....

You think Jimmer is more talented than Jamal Crawford? And has Crawford been successful?? That'd certainly be Jimmers peak, and Crawford is what he is.....a journey man scorer. But Jimmer not as good as Crawford is...

I dont know about the white part Magnus, so much as I dont think Jimmer can be successful. Or at least anything more than a guy that plays for a zillion teams. I think the real answer is pretty straighforward, IMO it's that in a team game, ball dominant one one one type players dont work. I mean all those guys always move around and play for like 5-8 teams, because teams want them to win games, but when you are that ball dominant but only make 45% of your shots at best, all while not really making others better or contributing elsewhere, then 45% of the time doesn't translate to wins. All those alpha dogs like MJ wannabe or Lebron also do other things on the court, OR can score from everywhere and can get their shot off against anyone.
Jimmer simply hasn't shown he can do that; if there's one place he could, it'd be summer league. Bobby Jackson also said, and I'll try to find it again, that Jimmer needs to be Jimmer, and do what he does best, not be something else.

As for what he did in college, and I admit I didn't see much, but the one game I remember was his last in the tournament. Maybe he was in a weak league in college, and when he came up against top competition, he just isn't good enough???

Whats the difference in Burks and Jimmer, and how the coaches want them to play in Summer League? Seems to me it's the exact same, but so far Jimmer has only shown one game. He's getting his chance, he just needs to be good enough.

I never wanted Jimmer for this team, still dont, and am so glad we didn't reach. I think Jimmer's greatest achievement can be to become Ben Gordon, who is now on his, what, 4th team? And has been mostly irrelevant. A guy that can score 30pts in 3 quarters every so often, really isn't that great, and doesn't get the team wins.

IMO, in basketball when you have 5 guys on the court at the same time, successful teams have teammates that make others better or do other things besides shooting an average FG%.

Gordon is another perfect example of the point I was trying ot make. The common thread among all of those guys is that even though they don't have great FG% they are all still efficient scorers because they hit threes and get to the free throw line.

So what is wrong with that? Why can't a scorer like any of those guys we mentioned be just a role player without being looked down upon like some kind of failure. I mean other guys get all kinds of respect for being one trick pony role players, whether they are a "defensive stopper" or "3pt specialist" or "shot blocker" or "passing PG", why can't "scorer" just be another role?

While I'm with you on the concept of team basketball, that is certainly not the only way to play the game, or win. I would argue (with plenty of examples to back up my point) that, with certain groups of players, having a guy that will dominate the ball and force the offence (scorer) is their BEST chance of winning.

Now that has to be controlled, and you can't just put guys like that out there with anybody, but I really think there is alot of unecessary rigidity and structure in the way basketball is coached and the way teams in the NBA are constructed. Greg Poppovic illustrates that almost every season as he throws out the old conventions some nights and then resurrects them the next.

dongibby wrote:

I agree with Mags let Jimmer come off of the bench and be the scorer on the floor for the second unit, thats where he fits in best.

You know, after all that I have said, in looking at the Jazz roster right now, I'm not sure that Jimmer is a great fit for this squad. I don't think he would be bad, but Burks and Muphy are both volume scorers, Hayward is really good with the ball in his hands, and the Jazz really don't have any guys you would consider great spot up shooters.

He's definately not a good fit in Sacramento right now. All they have is scorers. So untill he gets out of that situation he's never going to really get a chance to do much.

I think a second tier, more balanced PG, that could hit the 3 with some regularity, would be a better option for the Jazz right now. A guy like Kirk Heinrich or Calderone would be ideal as a backup PG for this squad, but their aren't too many of those available.

Well, with Calderone, and even late in Hinrich's injury-plagued career, the issue is money. Calderone makes more than Mo and weren't the Bulls going to offer most of the MLE to Hinrich?

I'd love either guy on the Jazz. Calderone's a fine ball handler and passer and has been near that magical 50/40/90% level shooting the ball. Not a good defender. *shrugs*

And I used to really like Hinrich. Not surprised he's been injured, I wasn't sure he would make it out of college ball in one piece. He used to play noticeably harder than the other players on the floor. There's effort, there's playin' hard and then there's fanatical effort and he was usually at that level. He had some size and strength and ran hard, but he really couldn't afford to lose what the injuries have cost him, athletically.

I'd LIKE to be comfortable with Watson/Tinsley but Earl really, really dropped off in the 2nd half. Not sure Corbin's going to go for the Point-SF, Point-SG idea of using Hayward and/or Burks as the primary distributors. I think it might work, but you'd need Popovich or Karl, or Nelson or some coach with the credibility to be that innovative. Hmmm...

Oh, and I also agree with Mags that there's a racial element in expectations for players. It's certainly obvious from announcers (no white player "has quickness", "elevation" or "speed". They can only succeed because of their "lunch bucket effort" and "basketball IQ". It's a bunch of racist crap.), and the expectations are there for coaches and on the court as well.

Oh, and as for the Jimmer thing...as a 3pt. shooter (need) and desperation last PG (need), I think he'd be okay. He might not be much of an offense-running PG but what the Jazz mostly need is somebody to bring the ball up and be the right size to guard opposing PGs (even if poorly).

TheMagnus wrote:

Gordon is another perfect example of the point I was trying ot make. The common thread among all of those guys is that even though they don't have great FG% they are all still efficient scorers because they hit threes and get to the free throw line.

So what is wrong with that? Why can't a scorer like any of those guys we mentioned be just a role player without being looked down upon like some kind of failure. I mean other guys get all kinds of respect for being one trick pony role players, whether they are a "defensive stopper" or "3pt specialist" or "shot blocker" or "passing PG", why can't "scorer" just be another role?

While I'm with you on the concept of team basketball, that is certainly not the only way to play the game, or win. I would argue (with plenty of examples to back up my point) that, with certain groups of players, having a guy that will dominate the ball and force the offence (scorer) is their BEST chance of winning.

Now that has to be controlled, and you can't just put guys like that out there with anybody, but I really think there is alot of unecessary rigidity and structure in the way basketball is coached and the way teams in the NBA are constructed. Greg Poppovic illustrates that almost every season as he throws out the old conventions some nights and then resurrects them the next.

Right, we kind of agree, except I really dont think a scoring player is a white/black thing. I mean, I think it comes down to all the GM's, and agents, and media blah blah, who all take guys like Kemba Walker, Jimmer, Adam Morrison, Bo Kimble is a great example, after building them up to be so great because of their scoring. I dont think it's so much a white vs black thing, I think it's a scoring thing. Gm's etc fall in love with scoring, and guys get picked in the lottery because they're such great scorers. But its only one skill on the court. Was Paul Millsap a lottery pick? He lead the nation in rebounds ( thankfully, he kicks ass in other ways). Or Machado this year. Or these guys that lead the nation in steals or blocks, they aren't always lottery picks, even though its one skill. More often, blocks and scoring are the two traits that all the GM's drool over, and make these guys such high picks. They're the ones that screw up, and they screw that player in the process. Ben Gordon was a lottery pick and shouldn't have been. Same with Jimmer. So once you're a lottery pick, you're expected to be great (Marv??) All those other one trick ponies, defensive stoppers, 3pt specialist, passing PG etc, usually were chosen much further down so no expectation and teams just enjoy that player doing what he does best.

I also think when you are a one trick pony, scoring/defense/blocks etc, you need solid players around you. Or you're a 6th man.
The other thing is if you are a ball dominant scorer, and force the offense(Durant) then you need to be able to score anywhere, on anyone. Otherwise you're Jimmer/Ben Gordon/Jamal Crawford, and you need to be a bench player. Just sucks because they sit on the bench with the weight of being a lottery pick, when they shouldn't have been.

Last note: Gordon Hayward was the perfect example of the opposite end of this spectrum; a guy that 100% SHOULD have been a lottery pick: multiple skills.

19pts, 10rebs, 2blks on 50% shooting. Thats a sweet line last year. I just found myself getting all excited at what Al Jefferson could do for us next year, and wanted to emphatically declare my allegiance to this current squad!!!! No big trades please. Thats right, I've changed course. I no longer want Josh Smith or Rudy Gay or Danny Granger. I want this squad just as it is, with maybe a dash of Darko, or Terrence Williams thrown in to complete it.

Al Jefferson had a career year last year, all star worthy, and did it all with a semi-decent score first PG, absolutely ZERO floor spacers, NO 3pt shooting, and a brand new coach and teammates. We have now gotten a better PG, multiple floor (3pt) spacers, and have the improvement that no doubt is coming from Gordo, Burks, Favors and maybe even Kanter.
Al Jefferson is absolutely primed to have a MONSTER year, and this team with Al dominating down low and the outside shooting we now have that will balance each other out (FINALLY!!) has all the potential of a contender. We may need some more seasoning, but look at what was accomplished with all those holes last year???! And now all this this year???

Defensively I dont even need to discuss it. Favors getting more minutes, all our others. I'm hoping Paul Millsap and Burks can both be our James Hardens, down low and on the wing.
And if there's any talk about Al's defensive deficiencies, well, he already showed improvement last year, there's every reason to think he'll improve this year, AND Dirk Nowitzki won a championship, and he's the worst defender in the league. So there.

I'm telling you, I'm stoked. I thought we needed to move someone, but now, not so much. I want to see what this team can do. Yea buddy.

Mutangclan wrote:

19pts, 10rebs, 2blks on 50% shooting. Thats a sweet line last year. I just found myself getting all excited at what Al Jefferson could do for us next year, and wanted to emphatically declare my allegiance to this current squad!!!! No big trades please. Thats right, I've changed course. I no longer want Josh Smith or Rudy Gay or Danny Granger. I want this squad just as it is, with maybe a dash of Darko, or Terrence Williams thrown in to complete it.

Al Jefferson had a career year last year, all star worthy, and did it all with a semi-decent score first PG, absolutely ZERO floor spacers, NO 3pt shooting, and a brand new coach and teammates. We have now gotten a better PG, multiple floor (3pt) spacers, and have the improvement that no doubt is coming from Gordo, Burks, Favors and maybe even Kanter.
Al Jefferson is absolutely primed to have a MONSTER year, and this team with Al dominating down low and the outside shooting we now have that will balance each other out (FINALLY!!) has all the potential of a contender. We may need some more seasoning, but look at what was accomplished with all those holes last year???! And now all this this year???

Defensively I dont even need to discuss it. Favors getting more minutes, all our others. I'm hoping Paul Millsap and Burks can both be our James Hardens, down low and on the wing.
And if there's any talk about Al's defensive deficiencies, well, he already showed improvement last year, there's every reason to think he'll improve this year, AND Dirk Nowitzki won a championship, and he's the worst defender in the league. So there.

I'm telling you, I'm stoked. I thought we needed to move someone, but now, not so much. I want to see what this team can do. Yea buddy.

(I want this squad just as it is, with maybe a dash of Darko, or Terrence Williams thrown in to complete it.)

Terrence Williams is a player that I really like and think he just needs to find the right situation where he can use his skills he is a very good defender and also can put the ball in the hole I think the Jazz would be a good fit for him and would love to see them sign him. I think the Jazz needs to get another big so Darko would be alright but I read that there are other teams looking at him so it might take more money to sign him than what the Jazz would be willing to pay.

Man, you know who we might want to take a look at to make our 14th??? Can't believe I'm saying it, but..... Adam Morrison. Yea. He's looked great in Summer League!!! We know he's a smart player, and position wise we really probably need another SF, and certainly need more outside shooting.

For the Summer League, Morrison scored 11, 23, 22, 18 and 26 points in his games. He did it on
38-69 shooting and an impressive 13-21 on 3's. Thats 62% on 3's and 55% on twos, some sweet percentages! He also got at least 5 rebs every game, and it almost all his free throws. We could get him for cheap too......hmmmm, former POY in college too? I mean, could do worse. And I'd like to see that hair on the team too, heh.

Mutangclan wrote:

Man, you know who we might want to take a look at to make our 14th??? Can't believe I'm saying it, but..... Adam Morrison. Yea. He's looked great in Summer League!!! We know he's a smart player, and position wise we really probably need another SF, and certainly need more outside shooting.

For the Summer League, Morrison scored 11, 23, 22, 18 and 26 points in his games. He did it on
38-69 shooting and an impressive 13-21 on 3's. Thats 62% on 3's and 55% on twos, some sweet percentages! He also got at least 5 rebs every game, and it almost all his free throws. We could get him for cheap too......hmmmm, former POY in college too? I mean, could do worse. And I'd like to see that hair on the team too, heh.

Carlos Delfino is still unsigned I watched him play today against team USA and he looked pretty darn good, he scored something like 15 points in the game. This guy is a very good shooter his problem is staying healthy for some reason I think he would bring a lot to the Jazz coming off of the bench at both the SF or SG position, if the Jazz are looking to find players who can hit the 3 pt shot then he is it.

Not sure if this is a serious thought or not ....

Some people say the Jazz need another big to throw out there in emergencies.
Others say that three point shooting is the top priority for another signing.

There just happens to be a guy out there that could fill both those spots. A familiar name as a matter of fact. ....... Memo "Money Man" Okur.

From what I've seen, he isn't on anyone's roster. I also haven't seen anything that says he retired or doesn't want to play either.

Just a thought. He should come cheap, would lend experience, shouldn't demand many minutes due to age and injury history, but could provide value in a pinch.

zero24gravity wrote:

Not sure if this is a serious thought or not ....

Some people say the Jazz need another big to throw out there in emergencies.
Others say that three point shooting is the top priority for another signing.

There just happens to be a guy out there that could fill both those spots. A familiar name as a matter of fact. ....... Memo "Money Man" Okur.

From what I've seen, he isn't on anyone's roster. I also haven't seen anything that says he retired or doesn't want to play either.

Just a thought. He should come cheap, would lend experience, shouldn't demand many minutes due to age and injury history, but could provide value in a pinch.

I would take money man back. Good guy to stretch the floor and bring one of the opposing bigs out of the paint. I can dig it.

Expiring contracts, team options on young core, only Marvin
Williams money commited next season, team's needs addressed, death weight dropped or about to...

Beyond how season evolves, Jazz brass deserves credit now. Quickly assembled better team around capable bigs.

Now they have a season to watch and enter trade
deadline/off-season with flexibility in all fronts (money, draft
picks, expiring dudes, cap space...)

Good management if you ask me.

Romoholic wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Not sure if this is a serious thought or not ....

Some people say the Jazz need another big to throw out there in emergencies.
Others say that three point shooting is the top priority for another signing.

There just happens to be a guy out there that could fill both those spots. A familiar name as a matter of fact. ....... Memo "Money Man" Okur.

From what I've seen, he isn't on anyone's roster. I also haven't seen anything that says he retired or doesn't want to play either.

Just a thought. He should come cheap, would lend experience, shouldn't demand many minutes due to age and injury history, but could provide value in a pinch.

I would take money man back. Good guy to stretch the floor and bring one of the opposing bigs out of the paint. I can dig it.

If Okur is able to make a come back this coming season and could give the Jazz anything at all coming off of the bench I would take him no question about it but I have not heard anything at all about if he is going to be able to come back this season because of his back or not.

dongibby wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

Not sure if this is a serious thought or not ....

Some people say the Jazz need another big to throw out there in emergencies.
Others say that three point shooting is the top priority for another signing.

There just happens to be a guy out there that could fill both those spots. A familiar name as a matter of fact. ....... Memo "Money Man" Okur.

From what I've seen, he isn't on anyone's roster. I also haven't seen anything that says he retired or doesn't want to play either.

Just a thought. He should come cheap, would lend experience, shouldn't demand many minutes due to age and injury history, but could provide value in a pinch.

I would take money man back. Good guy to stretch the floor and bring one of the opposing bigs out of the paint. I can dig it.

If Okur is able to make a come back this coming season and could give the Jazz anything at all coming off of the bench I would take him no question about it but I have not heard anything at all about if he is going to be able to come back this season because of his back or not.

Here is all I could find on money man.....http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/800/mehmet-okur

I still think AK will be back in the league somewhere and he might have one of his best seasons, sounds like he might be going cheap too.

rorybreaker wrote:

I still think AK will be back in the league somewhere and he might have one of his best seasons, sounds like he might be going cheap too.

We have a thread going on the Rest of the NBA regarding AK. What makes you think he will go cheap? His famous quote about "having enough money"? You could be right, not calling you out, and he would kill on any number of contenders at the vet min. OMG, he won't put on a Faker uniform, will he????

This is what I saw earlier

"Not immediately clear, though, is the number of teams that are part of the race or whether Kirilenko is indeed willing to play for a minimum salary a la Antawn Jamison, who recently made that sacrifice to join the Los Angeles *****."

That was from ESPN, but then I read this....

Jerry Zgoda: Per @WojYahooNBA earlier tweets, league sources confirm Wolves are targeting Kirilenko, perhaps at $9M a season for at least 2 years Twitter

rorybreaker wrote:

This is what I saw earlier

"Not immediately clear, though, is the number of teams that are part of the race or whether Kirilenko is indeed willing to play for a minimum salary a la Antawn Jamison, who recently made that sacrifice to join the Los Angeles *****."

That was from ESPN, but then I read this....

Jerry Zgoda: Per @WojYahooNBA earlier tweets, league sources confirm Wolves are targeting Kirilenko, perhaps at $9M a season for at least 2 years Twitter

That seems a little high for AK. I was thinking he would get 6-8m.

Either way he is a good player that will make whatever team he goes to better.

Romoholic wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

This is what I saw earlier

"Not immediately clear, though, is the number of teams that are part of the race or whether Kirilenko is indeed willing to play for a minimum salary a la Antawn Jamison, who recently made that sacrifice to join the Los Angeles *****."

That was from ESPN, but then I read this....

Jerry Zgoda: Per @WojYahooNBA earlier tweets, league sources confirm Wolves are targeting Kirilenko, perhaps at $9M a season for at least 2 years Twitter

That seems a little high for AK. I was thinking he would get 6-8m.

Either way he is a good player that will make whatever team he goes to better.

Yup, I'll always be a fan, It would have been nice if he would have come here for the minimum just as some kind of payback or something.

rorybreaker wrote:

Romoholic wrote:

rorybreaker wrote:

This is what I saw earlier

"Not immediately clear, though, is the number of teams that are part of the race or whether Kirilenko is indeed willing to play for a minimum salary a la Antawn Jamison, who recently made that sacrifice to join the Los Angeles *****."

That was from ESPN, but then I read this....

Jerry Zgoda: Per @WojYahooNBA earlier tweets, league sources confirm Wolves are targeting Kirilenko, perhaps at $9M a season for at least 2 years Twitter

That seems a little high for AK. I was thinking he would get 6-8m.


Either way he is a good player that will make whatever team he goes to better.

Yup, I'll always be a fan, It would have been nice if he would have come here for the minimum just as some kind of payback or something.

Yeah I love AK one of my all time favorite players. The dude saved the Jazz after Karl turned into a ring chaser and Stockton retired.

And for the greatest roster improvement of all time, in all of Jazz history, and also for the "Celebration" section of jazznation forum............ : C.J. Miles Agrees To Two-Year Deal With Cavaliers!!!!

Several people on here were mentioning that Ryan Anderson should be a Jazz target. Apparently he was a target and the Jazz engaged in substantive trade talks with Orlando to try to get him:

Before Ryan Anderson became a Hornet, Utah Jazz were in trade talks
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/54688120-62/anderson-jazz-utah-forward.html.csp

Crunchtime1 wrote:

Several people on here were mentioning that Ryan Anderson should be a Jazz target. Apparently he was a target and the Jazz engaged in substantive trade talks with Orlando to try to get him:

Before Ryan Anderson became a Hornet, Utah Jazz were in trade talks
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/54688120-62/anderson-jazz-utah-forward.html.csp

Yes, thanks Crunch for pointing out my GM genius..........and busted, IIIIIIII am the real Dennis Lindsey.

Mutangclan wrote:

Yes, thanks Crunch for pointing out my GM genius..........and busted, IIIIIIII am the real Dennis Lindsey.

Lol. Yeah, I thought it was you who was talking about Ryan Anderson, but I was too lazy to go back and read through the thread to verify.