we have a monster rock solid 7footer that is all muscle and built to absolutely dominate.
He is 6'11 with shoes. Seriously 242lbs is way to low for low post player who depended on his strength and not athletic ability. He shoulda stayed at 270-280lbs and mold his game after Pekovic.
Tang, I have to agree with Calgary that the relevant debate here between you and Calg is whether Kanter was a good pick at number three, and the jury is still out on that question. I am cautiously optimistic that he was a good pick at number three, especially now that he has demonstrated a serious work ethic. I remember last season that Tinsley was chiding Kanter for letting older centers outrun him up the floor. Kanter has likely addressed the conditioning question this summer, although being ripped doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with aerobic conditioning. More than likely he did both muscle and aerobic conditioning given Tinsley's chiding. But if Kanter really is down to only 242 pounds, it does indeed raise the question whether he will be as effective in boxing out and fighting for position to rebound. We will see. JMHO.
I can't wait for the games to begin and to see our guys play!!
Tang, I have to agree with Calgary that the relevant debate here between you and Calg is whether Kanter was a good pick at number three, and the jury is still out on that question.
But that is never what it was really about. For Calg it wasn't about the Jazz chosing Kanter, it was about NOT chosing JV. For Mu it was about the fact that Calg was being an insufferable douche about it.
And while the jury may be out for who knows how many years, the truth of the matter right now is that the ONLY player drafted in the top 10 in 2011 that was better than Kanter last season was Kyrie Irving. Jonas gets an Incomplete, and round 1 goes to the people who thought Kanter was a solid pick.
Furthermore, it seems MOST likely that this is not a Marvin Williams vs. Chris Paul situation, but rather a Derron Williams vs Chris Paul situation. Both players project be good NBA players, playing the same position, with very different styles, and if that is the case, then the jury's verdict doesn't matter, because some people will say that Kanter was a bad pick because he wasn't JV, and some people will say was a good pick because he is a good player.
What I'm trying to say is that this conversation is over for at least 2 months, and if see one more word about this pissing contest, I swear to you, as god-like-powers-holding administrator, I will not only lock this thread but delete it entirely.
we have a monster rock solid 7footer that is all muscle and built to absolutely dominate.
He is 6'11 with shoes. Seriously 242lbs is way to low for low post player who depended on his strength and not athletic ability. He shoulda stayed at 270-280lbs and mold his game after Pekovic.
First off, see my post above this one and heed my warning.
Second, as a guy has played lower levels of basketball, in the paint, both as a skinny athlete and a fat banger, I can tell you that there are definite advantages to both states, but overall leaner is almost always better. Especially since he is so young, playing at a lighter weight is going to allow him to more effectively use his young energy to his advantage, it will also make him quicker in every direction, and since it is clear he's not "skinny", he's just lean, I don't think getting pushed around will be a huge problem. Kanter has nice footwork and I know he's been working on his balance and leverage this summer over at P3, these things will help him be able to hold his ground without having a weight advantage, and will also help him to use the weight of others against them.
It should also be noted that if our interest is having Kanter stay healthy then lighter is definitly much mcuh much better. Every extra pound just adds pressure and stress to the bones and joints in the back feet and legs, and if he played with an extra 25 pounds I'd bet good money it wouldn't be long before he started missing games with various injuries.
Scouting report + Strong widebody with knack for boards. Below-rim player, struggles to finish. + Exceptional rebounder who loves to bang inside. Mobility an issue defensively. + Showed shooting skill in Europe but rarely shot as rookie. Needs better ball skills.
Analysis Kanter got to be the third overall pick in 2011 with the help of a dominant performance at the Hoop Summit, where he showed an accurate jumper to complement his brutish inside game. We saw no evidence of those perimeter skills as a rookie; Kanter took just 46 shots outside 10 feet and made only 12 of them, which is baffling. If the Jazz are just asking him to be a grunt, they shouldn't have taken him third overall.
Kanter might be helped by more pick-and-pop tries, but his other problem is that his ball skills are brutal. He had the second-worst pure point rating in the NBA and the laughable total of eight assists the entire season. That gave Kanter the worst assist ratio in basketball (see chart).
Assist Ratio, 2011-12's Worst Player -------- Team - Assist Ratio Enes Kanter -- Uta --- 2.3 Steve Novak -- NY --- 3.1 Ian Mahinmi -- Dal --- 3.3 DeAndre Jordan - LAC -3.5 Joel Anthony -- Mia --- 3.8 Min. 500 minutes
The one skill he clearly displayed was a knack for rebounding. Kanter's 18.3 mark was fourth among power forwards, and he drew fouls at a high rate (9th) thanks to all the second shots he earned. At the other end, despite his physical style and the fact he plays for the hack-happy Jazz, Kanter had a very low foul rate for a rookie.
Defensively he wasn't bad, although he's not a rim protector and is a bit of a tweener between 4 and 5. Also, it's important to remember that he's 19 and basically hadn't played in a real game in over two years. But if he's going to be this useless with the ball and rely on teammates' misses for all his points, it's hard to justify drafting him so highly.
I think Hollinger is a little tough on Enes "ball skills", he was clearly better passing ball during the summer league. I think he problably suffered form the lack of training camp and the compressed season more than anybody, and I think the Jazz "using him as a grunt" was due mostly to the fact that they didn't have time to train him to do anything else, he just went out with the second unit and played hard, (Almost like when you play pickup ball with a bunch of guys you know are as good or better than you, you don't want to look like an idiot so you just go hard and focus on what you are best at) and then because they didn't have time to practice that just became his roll. But Hollinger's right about that needing to change, too bad it is going to be so hard to find him minutes...
we have a monster rock solid 7footer that is all muscle and built to absolutely dominate.
He is 6'11 with shoes. Seriously 242lbs is way to low for low post player who depended on his strength and not athletic ability. He shoulda stayed at 270-280lbs and mold his game after Pekovic.
Calgary, you need to look around, somewhere, under your couch, behind the fridge, next to your Bieber tshirt collection, and find a sense of humor somewhere, ANYWHERE! Good god man.....I said "Everybody's favorite" just for you. Seriously man....
And do you actually think that with all his workouts he DROPPED 30lbs of muscle??? Is that what you think?? Because you just said he depends on his strength....I said he dropped WEIGHT. So common sense says, that UnderKanter is ridiculously stronger. And now, agile. Not to mention, if you read what his diet had been, cheeseburgers, 6egg omelets, desserts everyday and now he's eating healthier, that translates to dropping the bad weight and building muscle. Why should he have molded his game after Pekovic? Because you say so? If you watched the games, and summer league you of course saw a guy that early on depended on an up and under and later made a bunch of spin moves to the basket, and alot of baseline spins for reversals. That doesn't translate to a guy that depends on brute strength and bullying. That translates to a guy that depends strength, agility and explosion. Which is why he dropped weight and added muscle. Once again, you're just looking for reasons to discredit Kanter.
And I never said anything about Jonas, except for I dont give a sh.. about Jonas. Which I dont.
( I dont know why you guys are getting all worked up about this. I'll underline my post so you can see that it is debating the merits of Kanter dropping weight, adding muscle and what his game should be molded on IMO. Kanter brought a topic of conversation into camp, and I'd like to discuss it. Dropping that amount of weight and adding muscle is key for a 2nd year rookie.)
Last edited by Mutangclan on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Subject: Re: UnderKanter Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:41 am
Crunchtime1 wrote:
Tang, I have to agree with Calgary that the relevant debate here between you and Calg is whether Kanter was a good pick at number three, and the jury is still out on that question. I am cautiously optimistic that he was a good pick at number three, especially now that he has demonstrated a serious work ethic. I remember last season that Tinsley was chiding Kanter for letting older centers outrun him up the floor. Kanter has likely addressed the conditioning question this summer, although being ripped doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with aerobic conditioning. More than likely he did both muscle and aerobic conditioning given Tinsley's chiding. But if Kanter really is down to only 242 pounds, it does indeed raise the question whether he will be as effective in boxing out and fighting for position to rebound. We will see. JMHO.
I can't wait for the games to begin and to see our guys play!!
Is this because I said everybody's favorite? Obviously I was exaggerating. Because I didn't say anything about where he was picked. I said he is a workout fiend. And looks awesome. Not sure where you're coming from Crunch, and as you can see, guys dont like it when you talk about the **shhhh*** 3 pick in the draft! (Mag is right btw, Calg has been a douche. And Kanter showed to this point, only rookie that was better was Kyrie). If you remember, Kanter blew away the combine, but then when the season started he slowed down. So now he addressed the things he needed to. And weight in my opinion is the 3rd attribute needed to box out. 1st is position/effort, next is strength and then weight. Thats why Garnett was always a good rebounder, and obviously guys like Rodman and Brook Lopez is horrible. Kanter coming in this way, is absolutely stronger. And now more agile, which will add to his already fine rebounding skills. Not to mention this helps him tremendously on defense. He's still big and long, now just quicker, stronger and more explosive. Guys always add 8-12 lbs during the season anyway.Plenty of centers in this league are in that 240-260 range.
As for my prediction, thats tough obviously because of minutes. But I could see him forcing Ty to play him because of his play this year. I think with an actual normal NBA offseason, he's going to shine. Also, for all the talk about how horrible offensively he was last year, he shot 50%. Thats completely fine, especially for a rook.
So this season, I think he goes up about 5mins, and averages 18mins per, with his FG% going way up too, say 54% and his FT% up to a normal 75%. He's going to get 8 and 8 averages, which is pretty great for 18mins per. Blocks and assists probably equal at 1.
Subject: Re: UnderKanter Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:15 am
Mutangclan wrote:
. Dropping that amount of weight and adding muscle is key for a 2nd year rookie.)
It makes no sense. He was 267lbs with 5% body fat last year. Dropping to 242lbs means he lost muscle not added it. Simple math. He can't be less then 4% body weight, that's marathon runners, 3% is anorexic dangerous for your health zone. So something is wrong here.
Subject: Re: UnderKanter Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:58 am
It's really tough to say how many minutes Kanter will be playing right now, because it's not just about improving his play, it's about earning his minutes with 3 starting quality big men in front of him.
I'm going to predict that Enes ends up stuck at 15 minutes a game, and in that time he averages 7 points, 5 rebounds, 1 block, .5 steal, and 1 assist on 50% FG and 70% FT during that time.
Subject: Re: UnderKanter Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:03 pm
TheMagnus wrote:
I'm going to predict that Enes ends up stuck at 15 minutes a game, and in that time he averages 7 points, 5 rebounds, 1 block, .5 steal, and 1 assist on 50% FG and 70% FT during that time.
Mine would be very close to this except blk and ast won't reach 1. Something like 6.5pts, 5.5reb, 0.6blk, 0.3ast, 0.4stl.
He's going to get 8 and 8 averages, which is pretty great for 18mins per. Blocks and assists probably equal at 1.
Not going to happen. You dreaming again.
Actually, you know what Calgary? You may be right. I may be dreaming about him getting that many minutes. I'm HOPEFUL he gets 18mins a night, and if he does, I think he absolutely can average 8 and 8. It's very hard to predict what minutes he'll get with 3 beasts in front of him. But I do believe he'll come in and help the team, have minimal amount of negative impact or dropoff when he's in. And Ty's going to have to find minutes for him this year, much the same way he did with Fav last year. I hope he gets at least 18.
Come on ppl. "Heed my warning" "don't make me do it" .....talking about deleting this thread. Laughable. In Calgary's defense dropping 15 lb's may affect Kanters ability to pushout the big boys even if he's stronger. Pushing and leverage IS his game as we speak. Calgary's argument has merit. I don't care if he's proud and thinks the Jazz should have picked his player so he doesn't pull for Kanter. The jury still is out if his guy will be better than Lantern. THAT'S what this debate is REALLY about stemming from sltrib threads. It's obvious Lantern will run the floor better being lighter but only being 5% body fat before Calgarys argument has merit with how his game is played now. Let's not be too quick on the "button" just because a debate is ongoing and you can't persuade the other guy. This debate is evolving because Kanter and JV are evolving. To delete a thread that has been fairly respectably debated by both sides is a joke. No more threats. It brings down a good forum. Step away from the thread for awoke if you're too emotionally involved. Predictions: 15 min. 6 points 6 rbs 0.5 blocks
Come on ppl. "Heed my warning" "don't make me do it" .....talking about deleting this thread. Laughable. In Calgary's defense dropping 15 lb's may affect Kanters ability to pushout the big boys even if he's stronger. Pushing and leverage IS his game as we speak. Calgary's argument has merit. I don't care if he's proud and thinks the Jazz should have picked his player so he doesn't pull for Kanter. The jury still is out if his guy will be better than Lantern. THAT'S what this debate is REALLY about stemming from sltrib threads. It's obvious Lantern will run the floor better being lighter but only being 5% body fat before Calgarys argument has merit with how his game is played now. Let's not be too quick on the "button" just because a debate is ongoing and you can't persuade the other guy. This debate is evolving because Kanter and JV are evolving. To delete a thread that has been fairly respectably debated by both sides is a joke. No more threats. It brings down a good forum. Step away from the thread for awoke if you're too emotionally involved. Predictions: 15 min. 6 points 6 rbs 0.5 blocks
Listen you, I will keep my own council on how I use my button!!!
But seriously, this thread was locked because it had devolved badly, and according to other members was in fact "bringing down a good forum". And really, you expect us to have the self restraint to walk away voluntarily from an argument? Right, because that's how it always works out in unmoderated forums...
So, since there really is no new information to add to this months long argument, I am enforcing a cease fire until such time as new information becomes available to freshen up the battle and keep it above the "my-dick-is-bigger-and-your-mom's-a-whore" level it was fast approaching.
No worries though, this will come back around again, and with all of the piss and vinegar that it had before I'm sure.
Subject: Re: UnderKanter Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:34 pm
Kanter losing 51lbs is absolutely new info to discuss, Rome is discussing it, it's on yahoo's main page, Locke is all over it........its absolutely something to discuss, and how it will affect a 2nd year Center.
But this is getting lame. Apologies for not following all the rules for "well maintained" forums. See you all in Fantasy basketball.
Subject: Re: UnderKanter Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:11 pm
Mutangclan wrote:
Kanter losing 51lbs is absolutely new info to discuss, Rome is discussing it, it's on yahoo's main page, Locke is all over it........its absolutely something to discuss, and how it will affect a 2nd year Center.
But this is getting lame. Apologies for not following all the rules for "well maintained" forums. See you all in Fantasy basketball.
Peace.
And we were all discussing it, but you know as well as I do that's not what I was talking about. Frankly I thought my semi-sarcastic warnings had exactly the effect I was hoping they would... Calg was making predictions, you where quasi agreeing with him, a couple other people chimed in with solid points, and we were all having a nice time...
And then everybody got all bitchy. I got a mile long rant from Alive that clearly was mostly just blowing of some steam and I got you and Romo fighting (which BTW was exactly what I was trying to avoid when I stepped in here), and all I was trying to do was remind people why this thread was closed in the first place.
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