Millsap wants to stay in Utah

If I'm the Jazz, I continue negotiations and offer him a five year deal seconds after the FA period begins. If he's serious about staying in Utah he'll sign and the problem will be resolved.

By continuing the negotiations, I'm able to know for sure if he's the second best or the best big the Jazz have at the end of the season. No offense, but IMHO Milsap is ahead of Al and I simply don't think Al catches up to him this year. Bottom line, Al simply doesn't care enough about defense, hence he's not going to improve much. For a guy with sufficient athletic ability, defense is about want to. Milsap on the other hand has improved every season and there is no reason to believe he will not continue doing so in a contract year.

Favors on the other hand may catch up by or before seasons end. I think Favor's has the natural talent and size to surpass Milsap, providing he reaches the potential these talents indicate he has the ability to reach. On the other hand there is no guarrantee this happens.

Either way it doesn't hurt either the Jazz nor Milsap to wait and see how things shape up. In fact, its beneficial for both to do exactly that. Milsap gets a better deal, while the Jazz gain knowledge about their team and are in a position to make a sound decision. They've started by sending a positive message, now they need only to continue to work through the process and I think things will work out.

ptaz66 wrote:

If I'm the Jazz, I continue negotiations and offer him a five year deal seconds after the FA period begins. If he's serious about staying in Utah he'll sign and the problem will be resolved.

By continuing the negotiations, I'm able to know for sure if he's the second best or the best big the Jazz have at the end of the season. No offense, but IMHO Milsap is ahead of Al and I simply don't think Al catches up to him this year. Bottom line, Al simply doesn't care enough about defense, hence he's not going to improve much. For a guy with sufficient athletic ability, defense is about want to. Milsap on the other hand has improved every season and there is no reason to believe he will not continue doing so in a contract year.

Favors on the other hand may catch up by or before seasons end. I think Favor's has the natural talent and size to surpass Milsap, providing he reaches the potential these talents indicate he has the ability to reach. On the other hand there is no guarrantee this happens.

Either way it doesn't hurt either the Jazz nor Milsap to wait and see how things shape up. In fact, its beneficial for both to do exactly that. Milsap gets a better deal, while the Jazz gain knowledge about their team and are in a position to make a sound decision. They've started by sending a positive message, now they need only to continue to work through the process and I think things will work out.

Everything said here could be true.

On the flip side, Paul could wait until the end of the season, get offered a deal that the Jazz aren't comfortable with, and the team loses him & gets nothing in return. Then the Jazz don't really get the opportunity to make the "sound decision" that you are referring to.

Of coarse, this is the same situation any upcoming FA would be in, it's not specific to Paul. But the Jazz are in an interesting position that most team don't find themselves in. 3 of the teams top 3 or 4 players (potentially) all play similar positions on the court, possibly making Millsap more valuable to other teams than he is to the Jazz. If a team desperately needs a PF, then they will be willing to give up more for him then the Jazz may be willing to give. If that happens, then what? The Jazz resign him to a super high contract just to retain him, but then find themselves strapped in improving/resigning other players?

It's a tough situation. I've said it before, I want to keep Sap. I just don't know if it'll be a good long term decision to do so for the kind of money that the market will demand.

Paul would have immediately become the favorite person in all the state if he would have taken the MEASLY $8 million a year. Why can't life be that simple?

Good points Zero, Jazz are in a unique situation ever since the Dwill trade when a good team added a number 3 draft pick to it.

I think it just needs to be simplified. If Paul has a good year, like he probably will and Utah and Paul Millsap make it to the summer of 2013 together, then some team, say the Pacers who are going to need a PF after not re-signing David West, will need a starting PF. They'll offer him a 4yr 12-15m per. And Utah will only be able to counter with a 5 year 55m offer at BEST. They have to take into consideration the other contracts they have to sign. Thats going to happen, and what would Paul do? I think it's a no brainer, he'll take the most he can even though its for a year less in total.

Can anyone disagree with that???? How or why would that NOT happen???


So with that said, Utah will lose Millsap. He's gone. Is it not smart then to trade him now, or during the season? I think thats also a no-brainer; at least get something for him.

Mutangclan wrote:

Good points Zero, Jazz are in a unique situation ever since the Dwill trade when a good team added a number 3 draft pick to it.

I think it just needs to be simplified. If Paul has a good year, like he probably will and Utah and Paul Millsap make it to the summer of 2013 together, then some team, say the Pacers who are going to need a PF after not re-signing David West, will need a starting PF. They'll offer him a 4yr 12-15m per. And Utah will only be able to counter with a 5 year 55m offer at BEST. They have to take into consideration the other contracts they have to sign. Thats going to happen, and what would Paul do? I think it's a no brainer, he'll take the most he can even though its for a year less in total.

Can anyone disagree with that???? How or why would that NOT happen???


So with that said, Utah will lose Millsap. He's gone. Is it not smart then to trade him now, or during the season? I think thats also a no-brainer; at least get something for him.

If the Jazz see it that way and are sure they will lose him, you can bet your sweet ass that KOC will make a move on him.

They won't get the windfall of assets they got by moving Deron, but they can still get some good value from trading Milsap.

It's gonna be kinda sad to see Milsap move on to a new team it that happens. I think that is gonna be KOC's modus operandi from here on out. Draft really well pick up the best pieces he can and move them before they have a chance to bolt to a bigger market or someplace that will pay them above market value.

The days of the Jazz sitting on their hands and not making trades is OVER. Larry never liked to makes trades and was at times too loyal to players. KOC is now a mover and shaker in the NBA. It's kinda shocking to us long time fans, but at the same time very exciting.

Romoholic wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Good points Zero, Jazz are in a unique situation ever since the Dwill trade when a good team added a number 3 draft pick to it.

I think it just needs to be simplified. If Paul has a good year, like he probably will and Utah and Paul Millsap make it to the summer of 2013 together, then some team, say the Pacers who are going to need a PF after not re-signing David West, will need a starting PF. They'll offer him a 4yr 12-15m per. And Utah will only be able to counter with a 5 year 55m offer at BEST. They have to take into consideration the other contracts they have to sign. Thats going to happen, and what would Paul do? I think it's a no brainer, he'll take the most he can even though its for a year less in total.

Can anyone disagree with that???? How or why would that NOT happen???


So with that said, Utah will lose Millsap. He's gone. Is it not smart then to trade him now, or during the season? I think thats also a no-brainer; at least get something for him.

If the Jazz see it that way and are sure they will lose him, you can bet your sweet ass that KOC will make a move on him.

They won't get the windfall of assets they got by moving Deron, but they can still get some good value from trading Milsap.

It's gonna be kinda sad to see Milsap move on to a new team it that happens. I think that is gonna be KOC's modus operandi from here on out. Draft really well pick up the best pieces he can and move them before they have a chance to bolt to a bigger market or someplace that will pay them above market value.

The days of the Jazz sitting on their hands and not making trades is OVER. Larry never liked to makes trades and was at times too loyal to players. KOC is now a mover and shaker in the NBA. It's kinda shocking to us long time fans, but at the same time very exciting.

Mutang, I often agree with your posts, but in this case I'm afraid I simply can't. Signing players and making trades just cannot be as simplified as you want to make them seem. If they could a good GM wouldn't be overly important to the Jazz, since any hack could do the job.

While Milsap didn't take the initial offer, there is no telling what he might do. Is it likely some team makes him a big money offer? Yes. Is it in his best interest to take it, or might it be better to stay with a playoff team, who is on the rise, for more years, albeit for less per year? This is the age old question asked of players.

Some players like John Stockton were loyal to a fault to the team they played for, taking less money in hopes of putting a Championship Team together. Other's like Carlos Boozer are nothing more than mercenary players hiring out to the highest bidder.

Let's consider Milsap is as smart and knowledgeable as some of us. He like Mags, myself, and others thinks he and Favors is better for the Jazz's future than Big Al and Favors. If he takes a five year $55 million dollar offer, he proves his loyalty, keeps his word and the trade focus shifts from him to Big Al, who is is not going to want to take a pay-cut.

I'm not saying he will absolutely do this, but I will say his work ethic is more like one of a throwback player, than one of today's whining, needy, greedy players. This is why I suggest the team continues negotiations with him until they sign him or he gives them reason to believe they will definitely lose him.

If at some point they get the impression he is stringing them along, then, trading him to avoid getting nothing becomes a viable option. I'm just not willing to dismiss a man's comments out of hand, labeling him a liar, without some evidence of him lacking integrity. Milsap to my knowledge has done everything asked of him and conducted himself such he at least deaserves the benefit of the doubt and I think the Jazz will give it to him.

ptaz66 wrote:

Mutang, I often agree with your posts, but in this case I'm afraid I simply can't. Signing players and making trades just cannot be as simplified as you want to make them seem. If they could a good GM wouldn't be overly important to the Jazz, since any hack could do the job.

While Milsap didn't take the initial offer, there is no telling what he might do. Is it likely some team makes him a big money offer? Yes. Is it in his best interest to take it, or might it be better to stay with a playoff team, who is on the rise, for more years, albeit for less per year? This is the age old question asked of players.

Some players like John Stockton were loyal to a fault to the team they played for, taking less money in hopes of putting a Championship Team together. Other's like Carlos Boozer are nothing more than mercenary players hiring out to the highest bidder.

Let's consider Milsap is as smart and knowledgeable as some of us. He like Mags, myself, and others thinks he and Favors is better for the Jazz's future than Big Al and Favors. If he takes a five year $55 million dollar offer, he proves his loyalty, keeps his word and the trade focus shifts from him to Big Al, who is is not going to want to take a pay-cut.

I'm not saying he will absolutely do this, but I will say his work ethic is more like one of a throwback player, than one of today's whining, needy, greedy players. This is why I suggest the team continues negotiations with him until they sign him or he gives them reason to believe they will definitely lose him.

If at some point they get the impression he is stringing them along, then, trading him to avoid getting nothing becomes a viable option. I'm just not willing to dismiss a man's comments out of hand, labeling him a liar, without some evidence of him lacking integrity. Milsap to my knowledge has done everything asked of him and conducted himself such he at least deaserves the benefit of the doubt and I think the Jazz will give it to him.

Great! A disagreement! Just what this forum is for.......Good post Ptaz, good stuff, as the reputation point suggests! heh.

My intent certainly was to simplify this whole idea about Paul going or staying. But I think I'll go back and disagree with you too. When good players are assuredly gone (Dwight) then trades are easy to do, that team just might not get what it wants if they dont make smart, timely decisions regarding that player(Magic). Paul will say all the right things, "Utah is my first choice, but I know it's a business". Which will translate to, I hope Utah gives me the best contract, but if they dont then I'll have to take the best contract (unless it's the Bobcats, and then, well, who knows.)

So then are you saying that we are depending on Paul being a "throwback" type of player, more like John Stockton, and he'll want to be loyal to the Jazz verses making 3-5 million more a year??? Is that the entire case?

Well if that is the gamble, then I am going heavy on the side of Paul taking the bigger contract per year. Sure, if the Bobcats offer Paul 14m a year, and Utah offers him 10.5, then I would bet that it would not be a very easy decision for him. However, what about Indiana? They have young stars, are up and coming and will compete for tops in the East next season. They're also saying that West wont be re-signed. You telling me you think Paul will be loyal to Utah at 10.5m a season, verses going to a good young contending in the East team like the Pacers who also offer him somewhere around 12-14million a season??? I like Paul a lot and love him on this team. I love his attitude and everything about him, however I dont think he's much different than anyone else in the league now, that really has no loyalty to their team like older players did. And once KOC and Lindsey(?) realize that teams love Paul and will make him HUGE offers, and they need to be financially smart all while thinking about their 4 youth monsters they have to sign soon, then they can either play out the season with him and watch him walk, or make a pre-emptive strike and actually get a good player or draft pick for him instead of nothing.

Also, I think it's interesting that you are assuming Paul would take a pay cut verses another teams offer, and Al you have assumed he wouldn't. How do you come to either of those conclusions?

Who's labeling Paul a liar?? Because I said he'd take the larger contract in the summer? I dont think that means I'm calling him a liar. I think Paul looks at it as Utah could offer a big contract too, and that would be his first choice. However, when they dont, he will take the larger contract.

Its pretty clear. Millsap can command more on the open market as an UFA than is smart for the Jazz in a 3-5 year contract given upcoming extension needs with the young guns. Unless Milly indicates otherwise by signing a reasonable extension now, locking him into the "bloom" window with the young guns, then he is officially trade bait and on the block, and good trade bait at that. Jazz should be able to pick up a similar quality player at a position more needful or something less plus a good pick. In a perfect world Milly signs an extension for a good number, woo hoo, we are all happy. He doesn't, goes UFA, goodbye Al by February and hello something new and interesting. It's a no lose situation.

Mutangclan wrote:

ptaz66 wrote:

Mutang, I often agree with your posts, but in this case I'm afraid I simply can't. Signing players and making trades just cannot be as simplified as you want to make them seem. If they could a good GM wouldn't be overly important to the Jazz, since any hack could do the job.

While Milsap didn't take the initial offer, there is no telling what he might do. Is it likely some team makes him a big money offer? Yes. Is it in his best interest to take it, or might it be better to stay with a playoff team, who is on the rise, for more years, albeit for less per year? This is the age old question asked of players.

Some players like John Stockton were loyal to a fault to the team they played for, taking less money in hopes of putting a Championship Team together. Other's like Carlos Boozer are nothing more than mercenary players hiring out to the highest bidder.

Let's consider Milsap is as smart and knowledgeable as some of us. He like Mags, myself, and others thinks he and Favors is better for the Jazz's future than Big Al and Favors. If he takes a five year $55 million dollar offer, he proves his loyalty, keeps his word and the trade focus shifts from him to Big Al, who is is not going to want to take a pay-cut.

I'm not saying he will absolutely do this, but I will say his work ethic is more like one of a throwback player, than one of today's whining, needy, greedy players. This is why I suggest the team continues negotiations with him until they sign him or he gives them reason to believe they will definitely lose him.

If at some point they get the impression he is stringing them along, then, trading him to avoid getting nothing becomes a viable option. I'm just not willing to dismiss a man's comments out of hand, labeling him a liar, without some evidence of him lacking integrity. Milsap to my knowledge has done everything asked of him and conducted himself such he at least deaserves the benefit of the doubt and I think the Jazz will give it to him.

Great! A disagreement! Just what this forum is for.......Good post Ptaz, good stuff, as the reputation point suggests! heh.

My intent certainly was to simplify this whole idea about Paul going or staying. But I think I'll go back and disagree with you too. When good players are assuredly gone (Dwight) then trades are easy to do, that team just might not get what it wants if they dont make smart, timely decisions regarding that player(Magic). Paul will say all the right things, "Utah is my first choice, but I know it's a business". Which will translate to, I hope Utah gives me the best contract, but if they dont then I'll have to take the best contract (unless it's the Bobcats, and then, well, who knows.)

So then are you saying that we are depending on Paul being a "throwback" type of player, more like John Stockton, and he'll want to be loyal to the Jazz verses making 3-5 million more a year??? Is that the entire case?

Well if that is the gamble, then I am going heavy on the side of Paul taking the bigger contract per year. Sure, if the Bobcats offer Paul 14m a year, and Utah offers him 10.5, then I would bet that it would not be a very easy decision for him. However, what about Indiana? They have young stars, are up and coming and will compete for tops in the East next season. They're also saying that West wont be re-signed. You telling me you think Paul will be loyal to Utah at 10.5m a season, verses going to a good young contending in the East team like the Pacers who also offer him somewhere around 12-14million a season??? I like Paul a lot and love him on this team. I love his attitude and everything about him, however I dont think he's much different than anyone else in the league now, that really has no loyalty to their team like older players did. And once KOC and Lindsey(?) realize that teams love Paul and will make him HUGE offers, and they need to be financially smart all while thinking about their 4 youth monsters they have to sign soon, then they can either play out the season with him and watch him walk, or make a pre-emptive strike and actually get a good player or draft pick for him instead of nothing.

Also, I think it's interesting that you are assuming Paul would take a pay cut verses another teams offer, and Al you have assumed he wouldn't. How do you come to either of those conclusions?

Who's labeling Paul a liar?? Because I said he'd take the larger contract in the summer? I dont think that means I'm calling him a liar. I think Paul looks at it as Utah could offer a big contract too, and that would be his first choice. However, when they dont, he will take the larger contract.

The scenario I proposed above was but one example of the multitude of details which complicate the process when it comes to dealing with players and their agents during the negotiation period.

When it comes to Big Al versus Milsap there is a significant difference. Big Al already makes more than $11 million per season, which is what we're suggesting the Jazz's offer be at five years/$55 million. Hence, for the Jazz to resign Al to a fair deal he'd have to take a pay cut. For Milsap this still represents a significant pay increase.

Could Milsap make more on the FA Market? We both agree he could, but for some players money is not the only consideration. Some players, like most of us, realize they make a boat load of money without maxing out, so winning a Championship becomes a real priority for them. Milsap is a player who works exceptionally hard to improve his craft. Most players who put this much effort into improving really want to see it pay off both financially and with a Championship. Milsap has watched the Jazz make the same moves we have and can see the same potential we see. To think this doesn't factor into his decision making, in my opinion sells him a little short.

Like I said, I'm not saying we keep him at all costs. Rather I think it makes since for the Jazz to continue the negotiation process, maintain open channels of communication, and find out what Milsap's desires are, then see how they fit into the Jazz's plans for the future. Meanwhile, you've got the services of a really good, highly motivated player, in a contract year playing for the Jazz, until they can make an educated, decision. If they decide to keep him, then they get this all season and in the play-offs. If they decide to trade him, then, they do so after showcasing him and building his value until the trade deadline, increasing his value.

I realize showcasing him represents a risk of injury. However, Milsap has been pretty durable and is motivated to play through anything short of a serious injury (season ending). Me I take the risk because it is really difficult to get even value via trades in the NBA. I want his value as high as possible if the Jazz elect to pull the trigger on a trade.

ptaz66 wrote:

When it comes to Big Al versus Milsap there is a significant difference. Big Al already makes more than $11 million per season, which is what we're suggesting the Jazz's offer be at five years/$55 million. Hence, for the Jazz to resign Al to a fair deal he'd have to take a pay cut. For Milsap this still represents a significant pay increase.

Could Milsap make more on the FA Market? We both agree he could, but for some players money is not the only consideration. Some players, like most of us, realize they make a boat load of money without maxing out, so winning a Championship becomes a real priority for them. Milsap is a player who works exceptionally hard to improve his craft. Most players who put this much effort into improving really want to see it pay off both financially and with a Championship. Milsap has watched the Jazz make the same moves we have and can see the same potential we see. To think this doesn't factor into his decision making, in my opinion sells him a little short.

What you said could be entirely true. On the flip side I think of Al as a guy who really wants to win. He's tried to adjust his game away from being a black hole & will probably continue to do so. His defense will never be his calling-card, but he undoubtably made strides in that area & was also a decent shot blocker last season.

Al's made a bunch of money on losing teams. He's also already played for 3 teams in his career. I think it's very reasonable to think that he would accept less money in order to stay on a team that he thinks can win & not have to change homes again.

Really, I think both guys would like to stay. It's just a matter of what's best for the team make-up, both on the court & financially. Can you keep both guys & still have the financial flexibilty to retain & add other important players, along with have the minutes to develop younger talent? If you can't keep both guys, then who can you keep for the best bargin? Who works best with the other players on your team? Who brings a specific skill that is invaluable to the squad? Who's flaws can you live with more easily (and both players have them)? etc, etc.